September 18, 2021, 09:37:46 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death  (Read 7368 times)

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January 10, 2021, 12:34:56 AM
Reply #30
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20vvk07


....do you consider the moment that Lyudmila could have female problems? ... I will reveal a terrible secret for modern society: "In the USSR there were no personal hygiene products for women during menstruation!" Well, there was nothing. That's how it happened. So the same fabric that Lyudmila bought was very often used for underwear and for pads too!

Interesting!!  I've always thought Lyudmila's "evil as hell" mood was most likely simply PMS: she is so casual & matter of fact about it while still rather resenting it.  But I finally had to dismiss that idea because there were no feminine hygiene products (that I could discern) listed among the items recovered from the tent/backpacks/etc.

The problem is that such hygienic things were not in the whole USSR somewhere before the 80's. In the 50s, it could have been any rag, just any rag, which was then simply washed and reused.

January 10, 2021, 12:36:48 AM
Reply #31
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20vvk07


....do you consider the moment that Lyudmila could have female problems? ... I will reveal a terrible secret for modern society: "In the USSR there were no personal hygiene products for women during menstruation!" Well, there was nothing. That's how it happened. So the same fabric that Lyudmila bought was very often used for underwear and for pads too!

Interesting!!  I've always thought Lyudmila's "evil as hell" mood was most likely simply PMS: she is so casual & matter of fact about it while still rather resenting it.  But I finally had to dismiss that idea because there were no feminine hygiene products (that I could discern) listed among the items recovered from the tent/backpacks/etc.
The problem is that such hygienic things were not in the whole USSR somewhere before the 80's. In the 50s, it could have been any rag, just any rag, which was then simply washed and reused.

January 10, 2021, 07:51:59 AM
Reply #32
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mk


The problem is that such hygienic things were not in the whole USSR somewhere before the 80's. In the 50s, it could have been any rag, just any rag, which was then simply washed and reused.
It's difficult for me to imagine choosing cambric fabric specifically for a reusable pad.  It's a flat, tight weave--makes very nice shirts and other clothing--but seems like you'd want something more absorbent as a pad.  However, if any old rag would do, then you wouldn't use your nice new cambric.  I wonder whether there is anything else in the list of items that might have been used: possibly the cotton socks?  They would be absorbent, soft, and the sort of thing that wouldn't be embarrassing to hang up to dry in mixed company.  The list of items reports, "cotton socks, whole and torn, 25 pieces".  Torn socks could be put inside a whole sock and then used as a pad.   

At any rate, you've answered my question about the possibility of "evil as hell" mood being PMS--in my opinion, definitely possible!

January 10, 2021, 03:39:30 PM
Reply #33
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RidgeWatcher


The PMS aspect or possibility has been talked about at length somewhere on this forum and the general consensus is her "mad as hell" and 2 days mostly likely had nothing to do with PMS or her cycle. It's generally thought that some incident occurred at the Hotel in Vizhay or maybe prior.

April 08, 2021, 09:50:46 AM
Reply #34
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Dona


It was more than just Luda who had a premonition..

Igors mother did everything she could to stop him from going..  Then he said " this will be my last trip"

Someone else also  said this.. Georgy, I think.. " This will be my last trip"

Someone else was a no show

Another, transferred out,  suddenly.

Yuri Yudin.. He would have known early on if he was having sciatica.. I think he sensed something.

Then, the not one, but TWO, police encounters.. Zena said she had  never heard of such a thing  as to being arrested for singing, I think she said..

The guy who tried hard to talk them out of going that route.

The universe was speaking, but no one was listening..

April 15, 2021, 08:30:06 PM
Reply #35
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RidgeWatcher


I read Sebastien Unger's book The Perfect Storm about the Andrea Gail fishing vessel. A young man had signed up for that trip, he and his father drove three states away to the docked boat, the young man needed the money for school, they drove all night and arrived at the boat in the early dawn. He walked up to the boat and took one look at it and turned to his father and said "I am not getting on that boat" he and his father drove away. I think sometimes you are given a gift in your gut that steers you towards safety. I think Lyuda was having this same gut feeling but she was brave and she didn't turn back.

April 16, 2021, 08:16:13 AM
Reply #36
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Dona


Luda couldnt have left even if she wanted to. That would have left Zena, alone on a mountain with 7 men. That would not have been acceptable in those times.. or maybe even not allowed..

April 18, 2021, 08:26:14 AM
Reply #37
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Manti


Those times in Russia (and Europe) were different than in the anglo-saxon West. Gender equality was a big thing in the Soviet Union, and a communist ideal. They aimed for complete equality, in education, at work, equal rights, everything. There were statues in towns and cities dedicated to the "working woman". Women were actively encouraged to take up "masculine" professions. One girl hiking with 7 guys would not have been seen any differently to one guy hiking with 7 girls.

April 18, 2021, 09:07:11 AM
Reply #38
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Dona



April 18, 2021, 09:54:40 AM
Reply #39
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Manti


I was referring to propriety.
I know but, in my opinion, the idea that it would have been improper is foreign to Russian (and mainland European, except perhaps Dutch) culture. This idea originates in other cultures such as Victorian England (and Islam) and then spread to English colonies.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/839036?seq=1
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 10:02:47 AM by Manti »

April 18, 2021, 02:32:49 PM
Reply #40
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I was referring to propriety.
I know but, in my opinion, the idea that it would have been improper is foreign to Russian (and mainland European, except perhaps Dutch) culture. This idea originates in other cultures such as Victorian England (and Islam) and then spread to English colonies.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/839036?seq=1
 

Why Victorian England  ! ?
DB

April 18, 2021, 02:50:06 PM
Reply #41
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Dona


Geez, I would have thought you would have known this one She was one of your Queens..

April 18, 2021, 02:54:06 PM
Reply #42
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Dona


Could be..  I dont know.. I know I wouldnt do it  neg1 grin1

April 19, 2021, 12:18:52 PM
Reply #43
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Geez, I would have thought you would have known this one She was one of your Queens..

What are you talking about ! ?
DB

April 19, 2021, 12:24:32 PM
Reply #44
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Dona


Geez, I would have thought you would have known this one She was one of your Queens..

What are you talking about ! ?

Daft, again..

May 19, 2021, 04:32:47 AM
Reply #45
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Geez, I would have thought you would have known this one She was one of your Queens..

What are you talking about ! ?

Daft, again..

Try thinking before you post stuff.
DB

June 20, 2021, 02:13:55 PM
Reply #46
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Jean Daniel Reuss




I do not have many changes to make since my post July 20, 2020, 03:43:19 PM     Reply #17
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg10160#msg10160

sarapuk is obviously right when he writes that there is no evidence to explain the DPI with certainty. But I think it is wise to take a cue from  Maya Leonidovna Piskareva 's a wise and lyrical statements when she is asking questions to  Mikhail Petrovich Sharavin (1935-2020) :

« you have so elegantly expressed your agreement, I am flattered. But, alas, we will learn the truth either from the state or when we find ourselves in the other world, where there are no illnesses, sorrows and grief...
 In the meantime, we are left to indulge ourselves intellectually in a game of investigations.»


I thank Teddy who has done the enormous task of gathering  and put in order, on his "forum.dyatlovpass.com", the informations and the various arguments that will allow us to gradually elaborate complete and realistic explanatory theories.

Because Dubina's diary appears to be genuine, it is important to explain Dubinina's strange changes so that they can be logically incorporated into a complete and convincing theory.


Part 1 , sabine : Reply #1 - 2 - 7 - 8

§-1-}   These posts by sabine are very interesting. Of course, I often agree with Sabine Lechtenfeld.
[/i]Dubinina was an intelligent and well-educated young woman, who was introverted and did not socialize easily
She seems to have been well organized and honest to a fault.
She didn't hesitate to speak her mind,   being socially awkward.[/i]

Yes : IMHO : There is clearly no such thing as premonition, telepathic thought transmission or influence of idiotic astrology.


§-2-}   sabine seems to me to have had an intuition of the right (i.e.my) solution at first. Then she reacts in the wrong way:
      "No ! No ! It is not plausible..."

But is not plausible to assume that a personal enemy of Lyuda would recruit helpers in order to wipe out the whole group.
IMHO, Nevertheless this is exactly in fact what happened : 1 or 2 clients, (commanders...) who stayed in Vizhay paid (probably 3) mercenary killers.

And therefore I think it's legitimate and necessary to look at a scenario where these facial injuries may have been inflicted deliberately, since the implications for the whole case are immense.
IMHO, the facial injuries have been inflicted deliberately which incriminates the Chekists of the NKVD and exonerates other suspects such as the Russian or foreign Zeks and the Mansi.


§-3-} A general query, addressed  especially to those who have psychological knowledge and who are interested in the issue of DPI,  (such as Sabine, mk,   ...etc.)

Why this widespread and strange refusal to adopt a criminal version (Murdered or Altercation on the pass), which has the great advantage of explaining in a simple way all the informations available nowadays  ??

For the Stalinists who want to hide the moral perversity of some NKVD leaders and of Stalin himself, it is understandable.
 But for the others...? ...eyes widely shut...? Hope or dream to live in a world without any violence...

§-4-} A cold case cannot be studied without understanding its historical context.
In the case of the DPI, it is essential to know the moral perversion that had infected some of the NKVD officers and functionaries.

 ••• To the misfortune of the Russian people (and perhaps to the misfortune of the communist ideology in the entire world) the sadistic tendencies of some camp guards of all ranks were encouraged by Stalin himself who had a typical sadistic personality.

For example, the historian Simon Sebag Montefiore (author of a famous biography of Stalin), testifies: "At a drunken dinner, Kamenev asked everyone around the table to say what was their dearest wish in life. Some said women, others answered sincerely that it was the progress of dialectical materialism towards the proletarian paradise. Then came Stalin's turn: 'My greatest pleasure is to choose a victim, to prepare plans thoroughly, to satisfy a relentless revenge and then to go to bed. There is nothing sweeter in the world. 


 •••  Khrushchev was aware of 2 disadvantages of the gulag system which he stated in his secret speech to the 20th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union on 25 February 1956. (On the secret speech, which is quite lengthy and almost unreadable, see among many other sources : )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Cult_of_Personality_and_Its_Consequences

1°) It was the internment of millions of innocent and harmless citizens and the use of forced labour of the zeks in very harsh physical conditions.
2°) The Gulag system morally perverted a small number of the camp guards by turning them into sadistic psychopaths.
This explains why, in the eyes of Khrushchev's supporters, the de-Stalinisation implied the need for a harsh purge of the NKVD by the KGB.

As a result, it is almost certain that in Vizhay, located in the heart of Ivdellag, Stalinist Chekists were panicking over the holding of the 21st Congress of the CPSU (January 27 to February 5, 1959).
The extermination of Dyatlov's apolitical group (but who, with their exibition of the Voucher, was considered in Vizhay to be propagandists of the Thaw) was immediately understood in the Kremlin as a fierce manifestation of Stalinist opposition.

 ••• Among the testimonies on the poor living conditions in the camps and on the dehumanisation of some camp guards we have : Drawings from the Gulag by Danzig Baldaev(1925-2005)


An available source in English :
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/drawings-gulag-danzig-baldaev-review

With the drawings in “Drawings from the Gulag”, Baldaev tries to collect evidence and document the crimes of the Communist. At no time was it intended for commercial publication or was taken abroad, but rather seems to have tried to collect material to remind of the grievous acts after a regime change, or, at best, to provide evidence of trials.....
Due to his profession, he was an eyewitness to several crimes depicted in his book..............


§-5-}   So I recopy here this short excerpt written (in Russian) by Aleks Kandr.  
          Motives for murder:
     - Personal dislike of the "capital's youth" and revenge for the insults inflicted, which may have been of little consequence, say, in their perception of any of us, but not for a professional sadist who had served for many years in the NKVD in complicity with the Stalinist repressions of the 30-50s.

     - Hatred of the political changes taking place in the country after Stalin's death, epitomised by the 20th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, which against the background of rampant propaganda in the media to celebrate the opening of the 21st Congress of the CPSU, may have further motivated the murder of tourists who dedicated their trek to this (21°) party congress.



Part 2, BottledBrunette : Reply #16

I think that BottledBrunette has guessed a good research lead, to explain Dubinina's mood changes
To be simpler and clearer I am transforming a bit what BottledBrunette wrote while keeping (I hope) the important meaning of her Reply #13 post.

Quote from: BottledBrunette   on August 25, 2019, 11:36:05 PM    Reply #16 (in substance, essence)
........................
Dubinina clearly expressed her dissatisfaction with the very bad reception, which was intended to humiliate and also to swindle Dyatlov's group.

Consequently one of the men on Vizhay tried to rape her, or manhandle her a bit or lot, but, either she fought him off or it was interrupted somehow. 

 Sensitive young girls who are sexually assaulted by attempted rape or just being fondled, or harassed, then their personality change.

I have heard that in these circumstances, women then undergo a profound psychological changes in their personality:.  Anger, lethargy, depression, self blaming, etc....

Dubinina's frustrations and anger were made worse by the fact that her 8 comrades seemed to accept everything and were not aware of these humiliating situations.

For Dubinina the mission of the leader Dyatlov was also to preserve the honour and interests of his group.
But instead of strongly protesting against the swindles and humiliations (coming from some unknown notables of Vizhay), Dyatlov submits by lazily dodging his duty to protest:

Dyatlov said with a smirk : "If the tea is cold, then go out and drink it on the street, it will be hot".

(Dyatlov's skills and interests were in science and sport, but not in bargaining and negotiating in front of oddly hostile innkeeper)

Kolgoromova seemed to have other concerns (that remain mysterious).

" I talked a lot about things which are completely unfamiliar to me and I scarcely do, but I tried, sincerely. But this is all
nonsense"
(???,!)


 
Part 3 , writers in favour of « the fight in the night »

Vladimir Mihaylovich Askinadzi : « Don’t ask me, I don’t know who or why were they murdered. But this seems to me the only explanation of their death. »

At this moment, to improve my "altecation" theory I merely read and wisely mix the good ideas of a few writers.

First the most remarkable ones:

••• Per Inge Oestmoen (812 posts since March 12, 2018, that almost all say : « All the evidence points to murder....»)
••• Eduard Tumanov (is pushing a theory that « hikers took part in a fight, either between them or with outsiders...»)
••• Aleks Kandr (His very elaborate theory, but written only in Russian on several websites)

There are also many other writers who are perhaps less convinced by the "overwhelming force of the punches thrown by the few attackers."

•••  Liyla79 - Noelle - hoosiergose - NightLurker - armyeng...etc...

Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

June 23, 2021, 06:15:41 AM
Reply #47
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EBE


I think you are right about the murder theory being probably the most plausible one. Besides multiple traces indicating presence of someone else in the area of their death (putees, knife sheath, belt strap, spoon..), the hard evidence is clear: Autopsy reports. Almost all of them had injuries on the side or back of their head. Even Igor Dyatlov - this is not stated in the autopsy report, but is visible on one of the photos from the morgue.

Also, the fire at the cedar was by all means not a fire that would be made by the group to save themselves. It was used for a different purpose.

June 23, 2021, 11:04:07 AM
Reply #48
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Manti


I might be completely wrong but I always interpreted Lyuda's diary entry about "bad mood" that will probably continue for the next two days as her being on her period.

Could be anything else really, but she seemed pretty sure it will continue for a specific number of days... makes you wonder...