Theories Discussion > Ergot poisoning / Shrooms

Why is it not obvious that the culprit was hallucinogenic mushrooms

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geiger1:

I have been interested in the Dyatlov Pass mystery for over a year, and am continually surprised that the ingestion of fly agaric mushrooms do not appear to be considered a very likely rational theory as to the cause of this sad event.

It is abundantly clear that the hikers had become mentally deranged. They had left their shelter in the middle of the night to walk away without sufficient clothing and footwear to stay alive in subzero temperatures. Their injuries strongly suggest that they may have been experiencing psychotic episodes and fought violently amongst themselves.

Was the cause of poor Dubinina’s missing tongue for example, the result of her continuously talking, jabbering and shrieking until another group member, in the grip of his own psychotic rage, cut her tongue out to ‘shut her up’. Worse things have happened during drug fuelled violence. In any case, it is clear that the group had become massively deranged and the most likely explanation for this is the action of a chemical agent.

If you put this together with the fact that the Mansi were in the habit of leaving fly agaric mushrooms lying about in the forest to dry them out, then Occam’s Razor would suggest that this theory should be the first to be ruled out before proceeding to those of a more exotic variety. I suspect that the Mansi knew exactly what had happened immediately but kept quiet so as to not be blamed.

Here are the stomach and small intestine contents as per the autopsy reports:

-------------------------------
YURI DOROSHENKO
The ventricle (stomach?) contained about 150 cm3 liquid mucous mass of reddish color, A sour smell is felt by the sense of smell from the contents of the stomach.   In the lumen of the small intestine contained a mucus mass of reddish color

YURI KRIVONISCHENKO
The stomach contained traces of slimy brown yellow mass. The lumen of the small intestine contained a mucous mass of brown-yellow color.

IGOR DYATLOV
The stomach contained about 100 cm3 of a liquid mucosal mass of brown-red color. In the lumen of the small intestine there is a mucosal mass of reddish color.

ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA
The gastric cavity contained traces of a dirty-yellow-colored frosty mucus mass. The lumen of the small intestine contained a mucous mass that was dirty yellow in color.

RUSTEM SLOBODIN
The stomach contained about 100 cm3 of a brown-yellow mucous mass. The lumen of the small intestine contained a mucus mass of dirty yellow color.

LYUDMILA DUBININA
The stomach contains up to 100 cm3 of dark brown mucosal mass. In the lumen of the small intestine there is mucosal mass of dirty yellow color.

SEMYON ZOLOTARYOV
The stomach contained traces of pale red mucosal mass. In the lumen of the small intestine there is a mucosal mass of dirty yellow color.

ALEKSANDER KOLEVATOV
The stomach contained up to 100 cm3 of a pale red slimy mass. The lumen of the small intestine contained a pale red mucosal mass with hints of yellow.

NIKOLAY THIBEAUX-BRIGNOLLE
The ventricle (stomach?) contained up to 100 cm3 of mucous mass of a red-yellow color. The lumen of the small intestine contained a slimy green mass with hints of brown.
-------------------------

The most common contents appear to be a ‘mucosal mass of dirty yellow color’. Can this be ruled out as the digestive product of mushrooms? The group would have been totally naïve as to the effects of a strong hallucinogen, they could not have determined what was a safe dose, and thus could easily have lapsed into powerful drug induced psychoses without being aware of it.

I assume that the group had come across a stash of Mansi fly agaric mushrooms during their trip up to the pass. Being young and inquisitive they decided to try them out. There was probably a law against it but who would know? Dyatlov probably did not want the group to ingest them during the day as this would lose time and members of the group might wander off necessitating lengthy searches.

He therefore elected for this to occur at night while the group was sequestered in the tent. Unfortunately for him this would be the worst possible scenario as crammed up against one another in a tent at night in the middle of nowhere in winter weather would be an ideal environment for severe paranoias to arise.
 
Am I missing something here? Is there toxicology that rules out the fly agaric mushrooms?

Ziljoe:
Some sort of gas , drug , or whatever may have had a part but doesn't explain broken ribs. The tounge missing is most likely to be been to the body left in a stream for 3 months.

KathleenDSmith1:
Everyone:

I don't believe all were poisoned with mushrooms, but during the shopping spree in Vizhay what each hiker had in their backpack did not contain "Mushrooms", what is odd, I read the diaries /chronology of January 24/Serov and it mentioned that Yuri Yudin is unable to purchase "Alcohol", and Igor Dyatlov made a note of it /copied and paste/...what is odd, during the time of all 9 hikers ..it was believe that "Seymon" might have given Thibault-Brignoles some alcohol and both were having a good time...What I'm asking is "Was the Alcohol" poisoned and no one realized it...

 On the train from Serov to Ivdel, a drunk passenger came to the group, stating that they had stolen a bottle of vodka from him and demanded to return it. He was simply ignored, although the physically fit hikers could have easily confronted him. The drunken passenger insisted on his rights and initiated a scandal. As a result, the conductor had to take the loaded citizen causing the disturbance to the police at the station. This incident is interesting not only for what was noted in the diaries, but also for the record that the Dyatlov himself made when preparing list of provisions for the trek. Yuri Yudin could not get alcohol and Igor made a record; vodka, Indian tea, matches. If for some reason the hikers did not buy vodka, then it is possible that one of them could actually have stolen from the drunk passenger. This is just a speculation.

KathleenDSmith1:
Everyone:

I believe that all 9 Hikers were Murdered, but I was just agreeing regarding the Alcohol instead of the "Mushroom"....

Thanks
Kathleen Dee Smith

kylecorbin:

--- Quote from: geiger1 on August 22, 2023, 06:08:45 AM ---...ingestion of fly agaric mushrooms ... a cause of this sad event.
It is abundantly clear that the hikers had become mentally deranged. They had left their shelter in the middle of the night to walk away without sufficient clothing and footwear to stay alive in subzero temperatures. Their injuries strongly suggest that they may have been experiencing psychotic episodes and fought violently amongst themselves.
Was the cause of poor Dubinina’s missing tongue for example, the result of her continuously talking, jabbering and shrieking until another group member, in the grip of his own psychotic rage, cut her tongue out to ‘shut her up’. Worse things have happened during drug fuelled violence. In any case, it is clear that the group had become massively deranged and the most likely explanation for this is the action of a chemical agent.
...
this would be the worst possible scenario as crammed up against one another in a tent at night in the middle of nowhere in winter weather would be an ideal environment for severe paranoias to arise.
--- End quote ---

Alas, hallucinogenic mushroom derangement and all other theories where several of the nine hearty victims acted physically wildly inside a cramped tent that was too short for them to stand in are disproved by that tent's orderly contents when discovered by searchers and the orderly footprints of all of them leading down to the trees. We know that they moved normally (or slowly) inside the tent and walked (not ran) down the slope for nearly an hour. The only theory that accounts for all the evidence is snow suddenly pressing down on the tent to limit movement of them and other items inside, but not enough snow to kill them. As strange as that seems, it's literally the only possibility that matches the evidence. That same evidence that disproves the mushroom/poisoning theories disproves some (but not all) of the famous Holmgren 2019 theory. It's conceivable that hallucinations occurred after they arrived at the trees, since evidence there neither disproves nor supports such. Since the evidence shows that the nine victims were the only ones in the entire area (no other people, large animals, large objects falling from the sky, etc.), they themselves (and wind and snow) must account for everything. Other theories are conceivable but are not supported by actual evidence.

The only "out" here is something so unlikely that it's almost not worth mentioning: a victim(s) in a hallucinogenic or other mental state restored the orderliness to the tent after the initial panic and then left and froze to death. That scenario is so unlikely that I have not yet figured out how to word it in the logic chain in my multi-page solution without distracting from the logic my approach depends on, but here's the wording I have so far:

"This scenario from the logic chain earlier herein has no evidence supporting it, so I dismiss it out of hand, but for completeness, here it is:
The group cut the tent and left in panic, of course knocking things around since there was barely room for nine people. The snow that searchers later found covering the tent had not collapsed on it yet. The group went down to the trees, and the katabatic freezing events there took place. Simultaneously, one or more of the group returned to the tent by following the deep footprints in the snow, still not clothed properly (or they had remained at the tent the entire time). Somehow in the dark they decided to (and were able to) spend time to restore the disordered items to their proper order (as found by searchers weeks later) instead of saving their own lives by donning boots and clothes, then left the tent before the snow collapsed (or dragged themselves out after it collapsed), and walked down toward the trees, and froze to death.
Again, there's of course no evidence that this absurd scenario occurred, and I list it only for completeness, since my entire discussion follows the logic chain of which this scenario is one of the eliminated links."

[Of course I need to add the fact that the deranged person must have been the one who put Dyatlov's jacket outside the tent and who put the flashlight on top of the snow that got onto the tent, but the scenario was already so outlandish that I haven't yet figured out how to add those additional bits without it seeming even worse.]

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