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Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: The ravine deaths - a theory  (Read 22865 times)

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July 20, 2020, 05:17:39 AM
Reply #150
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Nigel Evans


If you look at Simon's right hand in your top photo, his fingers are curled but not tightly.  I see what you are talking about in the bottom photo but I am having trouble seeing that as a pencil.  It does not appear to be near his right hand which would be underneath him.
The bottom image is a decent magnification of a low res b&w photo but i can see dark fingers on a dark hand that is in an unnatural but possible position (palm facing the camera) near the pelvis (this is a corpse). The "top of the pencil" even conforms, looking like a tapering cone of a lighter colour as one would expect. But all of this is borderline at the limit of course.

Wrt a morbid joke. I think it very unlikely. This was a very high profile investigation with the state spending a fortune to supply a large team (30?) lead by a colonel for months by helicopters, a squad of KGB permanently onsite always wearing their pistols. Other military style groups making flying visits and never introduced to the rest of the team.

July 20, 2020, 07:00:06 AM
Reply #151

eurocentric

Guest
My view of this den is that after 2 had died by the fire of their injuries, and their clothes had been reappropriated for warmth, the rest knew that they couldn't maintain the fire and survive out in the open, or keep climbing trees to snap off thinner branches (mention is made of someone skinning themselves doing so), so they decided on another course of action, to make a dug-out in soft snow to act as an insulating 'igloo', lined with the material they would otherwise have burnt.

The most injured were put there, and afterwards Dyatlov and 2 others attempted to return to the tent to get what they all needed for survival, and more urgently any pain relief and medical kit they might have in their rucksacks, but they perished of hypothermia and exhaustion en route, and that sealed the fate of the badly injured in the den.

They would have chosen the ravine site not only because of access to water but because the water had already cut into the drift, so they could dig in underneath it. These are injured people without tools so their bare hands would need to excavate soft snow.

Later, and having been hurriedly constructed and not maintained, the weight of additional snowfall caused a collapse, burying the already dead occupants, and the freeze-thaw with running water allowed for localised decomposition of the head and its soft tissues.

July 20, 2020, 07:07:31 AM
Reply #152
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Nigel Evans



The most injured were put there, the den had four seats? People with flail chests don't sit up.... Four seats equals four able bodied people? and afterwards Dyatlov and 2 others attempted to return to the tent to get what they all needed for survival, and more urgently any pain relief and medical kit they might have in their rucksacks, but they perished of hypothermia and exhaustion en route, and that sealed the fate of the badly injured in the den.


July 20, 2020, 07:18:13 AM
Reply #153

eurocentric

Guest

The most injured were put there, the den had four seats? People with flail chests don't sit up.... Four seats equals four able bodied people? and afterwards Dyatlov and 2 others attempted to return to the tent to get what they all needed for survival, and more urgently any pain relief and medical kit they might have in their rucksacks, but they perished of hypothermia and exhaustion en route, and that sealed the fate of the badly injured in the den.


Actually the ideal position for most chest injuries is to sit up. The pain would increase if you attempted to lie down, and in those conditions that would also increase the risk of hypothermia.

July 20, 2020, 07:46:47 AM
Reply #154
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Nigel Evans



The most injured were put there, the den had four seats? People with flail chests don't sit up.... Four seats equals four able bodied people? and afterwards Dyatlov and 2 others attempted to return to the tent to get what they all needed for survival, and more urgently any pain relief and medical kit they might have in their rucksacks, but they perished of hypothermia and exhaustion en route, and that sealed the fate of the badly injured in the den.


Actually the ideal position for most chest injuries is to sit up. The pain would increase if you attempted to lie down, and in those conditions that would also increase the risk of hypothermia.
Everything i read about flail chests discusses the extreme pain, i can't see Semyon sat up thinking about what to put in his notebook with a busted rib cage. Lyudmila would have died quickly and there wouldn't have been any need to protect her from the cold so in your narrative she would have joined the 2 Yuris?


July 20, 2020, 08:14:05 AM
Reply #155
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Nigel Evans


Just another post to add some more thoughts :-
Lyudmila -
  • "In the area of the left temporal bone there is a soft tissue defect sized 4 x 4 cm with the bottom of the defect exposing the temporal bone."
  • "When palpating the neck, there is extraordinary mobility of the thyrohyal and thyroid cartilages."
  • "the nasal cartilage is flattened."
Alexander -
  • "the nose cartilage is soft when palpated and has unusual mobility. The base of the nose is flattened with the nostrils compressed."
  • "There is a defect in the soft tissue in the area of the right cheek measuring 4 x 5.5 cm of uneven oval form with pressed smooth drawn-out margins. The bones of the lower jaw appear at the bottom of the defect of the soft tissue"
  • There is a wound of undetermined shape measuring 3 x 1.5 x 0.5 cm behind the right ear in the area of the mastoid process that penetrates into the mastoid process
  • "The neck is long and thin, and deformed in the area of the thyroid cartilage."
Nicolai -
  • "On the upper left jaw there is a defect in the soft tissue, which has an irregular oval shape with a size of 3 x 4 cm with drawn out, convoluted borders exposing the alveolar edge of the upper jaw,"
Semyon -
  • "In the right temporal areare is a soft tissue defect of irregular shape sized 8 x 6 cm with thinned, slightly rumpled edges baring the temporal bone."
All four of them display head injuries consistent with one side of the head being pressed against the ground hard enough to break the skin and alter the margin of the wound. Semyon seems to share similarity with Nicolai - drawn out, convoluted borders versus thinned, slightly rumpled edge. Alexander has - pressed smooth drawn-out margins.
.
All signs of a similar pressure?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 08:35:13 AM by Nigel Evans »

July 20, 2020, 01:18:31 PM
Reply #156
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
But just thought wrt multiple events. Semyon was holding a notebook and pencil? So if that was the case at the "event" then either it was instantaneous with no time to react or it's a sick joke by their killers?

There seems to have occurred a lot of Theories to this ; The ravine deaths - a theory  !  ? 
DB

July 20, 2020, 02:18:15 PM
Reply #157
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Nigel Evans


But just thought wrt multiple events. Semyon was holding a notebook and pencil? So if that was the case at the "event" then either it was instantaneous with no time to react or it's a sick joke by their killers?

There seems to have occurred a lot of Theories to this ; The ravine deaths - a theory  !  ?
That's what i'm doing here, studying the evidence and proposing theories and hopefully generating some intelligent discussion on them. The main proposition in this thread is that they were crushed under the snow. The next step is to examine the evidence to try and detail this more to support or deny that. One instantaneous event versus multiple events. Big difference. E.g. based on my posts today, i'd say the autopsies are saying that the head injuries rule out a falling theory. Unless the same injuries are post mortem.

So what's your opinion? Or are you not interested enough to have one? Do you just pop in to ask other people why they're constructing theories on how it happened? Takes all sorts.

July 20, 2020, 02:58:52 PM
Reply #158
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Ting


Which is the more plausible set of events:-
1) A fall - broken rib cage - reach for notepad and pencil - die - pencil still in hand.
2) Reach for pencil and paper - snow fall - broken rib cage - die - pencil still in hand.
3) Die - someone else places pencil/paper.

1) Entails an agonising set of movements if even possible to reach for pencil/paper. Although this might be the effort which finishes Semyon off, hence no writing.
2) Entails some coincidence that just at the moment you are about to write something probably revealing, heavy snow falls on you. Although the snowfall might be so quick as to pin the pencil/paper in place.
3) Entails a sick mind but why would they then leave the camera around his neck. I notice the camera is not in a strange position which you might expect from a fall - e.g., twisted around his body or over his head.

July 20, 2020, 03:43:25 PM
Reply #159
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Nigel Evans


Which is the more plausible set of events:-
1) A fall - broken rib cage - reach for notepad and pencil - die - pencil still in hand.
2) Reach for pencil and paper - snow fall - broken rib cage - die - pencil still in hand.
3) Die - someone else places pencil/paper.

1) Entails an agonising set of movements if even possible to reach for pencil/paper. Although this might be the effort which finishes Semyon off, hence no writing.
2) Entails some coincidence that just at the moment you are about to write something probably revealing, heavy snow falls on you. Although the snowfall might be so quick as to pin the pencil/paper in place.
3) Entails a sick mind but why would they then leave the camera around his neck. I notice the camera is not in a strange position which you might expect from a fall - e.g., twisted around his body or over his head.
What's more plausible if all four victims get a gash on the side of the head consistent with the head being pushed so hard into the ground that the skin splits
  • Falling?
  • Pressed into the ground?
Remember this is all four.

July 21, 2020, 03:09:48 PM
Reply #160
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
But just thought wrt multiple events. Semyon was holding a notebook and pencil? So if that was the case at the "event" then either it was instantaneous with no time to react or it's a sick joke by their killers?

There seems to have occurred a lot of Theories to this ; The ravine deaths - a theory  !  ?
That's what i'm doing here, studying the evidence and proposing theories and hopefully generating some intelligent discussion on them. The main proposition in this thread is that they were crushed under the snow. The next step is to examine the evidence to try and detail this more to support or deny that. One instantaneous event versus multiple events. Big difference. E.g. based on my posts today, i'd say the autopsies are saying that the head injuries rule out a falling theory. Unless the same injuries are post mortem.

So what's your opinion? Or are you not interested enough to have one? Do you just pop in to ask other people why they're constructing theories on how it happened? Takes all sorts.

Apologies Nigel, because your contribution is important to this Forum. I posted this in The Rav 4 Topic as well, last night.

Well I am reading with interest the various possibilities. The Event at the Ravine is obviously critical to ever being able to solve the Dyatlov Mystery. However, just a reminder about the position of Dubinina. Her final resting place is in a stream. The Authorities, who we can not really trust to have given all of the information or evidence, push the DECOMPOSITION THEORY and PREDATOR THEORY to explain the missing Eyes and Tongue and Facial Tissue. Low temperature slows the rate of decomposition.  Predators would eat away any body parts not just the parts that we see. Therefore the body of Dubinina should be very putrified and well eaten.  But that is not what we see with the body of Dubinina. In fact we dont see it with any of the bodies of the Dyatlov Group. What we do see is very unusual injuries not caused by decomposition or putrefaction.
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DB

July 21, 2020, 04:31:02 PM
Reply #161

eurocentric

Guest

Everything i read about flail chests discusses the extreme pain, i can't see Semyon sat up thinking about what to put in his notebook with a busted rib cage. Lyudmila would have died quickly and there wouldn't have been any need to protect her from the cold so in your narrative she would have joined the 2 Yuris?

I can easily imagine a dying man wishing to write a short note to his most loved, to be found with his body, in the same way submariners in the Kursk did. This note may well have solved the entire mystery by explaining what happened.

But I'm not sure we should rely on the "pencil/pad" idea, which seems to have been added to a rescuer's account years later. It also seems too perfectly timed that at the very moment he was sat or laid down thinking what to put, a tracked vehicle or tank went overhead in the middle of nowhere, and did so without leaving any tracks or signs of crushing around the collapsed zone, or that when fleeing the tent he had taken a pencil/pad (unless these were already in his pockets).

You're automatically assuming Lyudmila's injuries were all delivered at peak severity immediately, and therefore she could not have managed to walk a  mile down a mountain pass. But it's possible she initially had fractures which weren't separated, during whatever calamity struck them and she managed to stagger down the pass in pain. But downhill, in the dark, and without anything to steady herself, and the wind behind them, she may have had a series of falls/rolls, and at some point, since her rib cage wasn't able to flex, a sharp end of bone then punctured the lining of her heart.

Another possibility to explain broken ribs on either her or another hiker, is that someone fell on one of them at the cedars while scaling trees for firewood. They've been after thinner branches to tear off at the growing point, I noted such ends visible in a photo of the den material, and these repeated and exhausting climbs to obtain material which burnt out quickly will also IMO have caused the (pressure) sores on Dyatlov's ankles, rather than him being, as another theory goes, bound (and by only his legs).

Finally, if all 4 in the den had been able-bodied until driven over, then unless they all assessed the danger up at the tent had passed, which if a meterological phenomena it might, then I feel they would have all gone back together, for safety in numbers. They wouldn't send two men, one without shoes and certain to get frostbite, and a woman, to face off against the military/tribesmen/yeti/alien and recover all their things needed to survive. To me this indicates the 4 were the worst injured already, and what had been built in a soft snow drift worked at that stage as a triage.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 09:03:21 PM by eurocentric »

July 22, 2020, 12:33:03 AM
Reply #162
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sparrow


When I went back over the autopsies of the rav4, it was mentioned that Simon, Nicholas and Lyuda had " hemorrhages with presence of brown pigment". To my understanding this means they were bleeding while still alive. This is taken from Launton Anderson's interpretation of the Russian autopsy reports.  If that means there were open bleeding wounds (not bruises?) then those individual wounds would be...

Other than Simon's and Lyuda's eyes being missing, I am not sure where they were bleeding from. Nickolas' was, I believe, around his mouth.

Of course I could have misinterpreted the interpretation and if I have, someone please tell me.

Can we assume that the English interpretation is accurate and that everything that should have been mentioned in the autopsies was mentioned?  Do our Russian friends on this site think it is accurate? If so,  is there anyone on this forum who could tell us if we are interpreting the autopsy reports correctly? It would really be nice to know.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 01:17:55 AM by sparrow »

July 22, 2020, 02:26:08 AM
Reply #163
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Nigel Evans


When I went back over the autopsies of the rav4, it was mentioned that Simon, Nicholas and Lyuda had " hemorrhages with presence of brown pigment". I can't find any examples of this in the translations onsite? To my understanding this means they were bleeding while still alive. This is taken from Launton Anderson's interpretation of the Russian autopsy reports.  If that means there were open bleeding wounds (not bruises?) then those individual wounds would be...

Other than Simon's and Lyuda's eyes being missing, I am not sure where they were bleeding from. Nickolas' was, I believe, around his mouth.

Of course I could have misinterpreted the interpretation and if I have, someone please tell me.

Can we assume that the English interpretation is accurate and that everything that should have been mentioned in the autopsies was mentioned?  Do our Russian friends on this site think it is accurate? If so,  is there anyone on this forum who could tell us if we are interpreting the autopsy reports correctly? It would really be nice to know. You can do it yourself? The Russian original documents are online - https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/ just drop a page into Google translate and bingo.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 04:07:30 AM by Nigel Evans »

July 22, 2020, 02:39:16 AM
Reply #164
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sparrow


Thanks again Nigel.

July 22, 2020, 02:43:14 AM
Reply #165
Offline

Nigel Evans



Everything i read about flail chests discusses the extreme pain, i can't see Semyon sat up thinking about what to put in his notebook with a busted rib cage. Lyudmila would have died quickly and there wouldn't have been any need to protect her from the cold so in your narrative she would have joined the 2 Yuris?

I can easily imagine a dying man wishing to write a short note to his most loved, to be found with his body, in the same way submariners in the Kursk did. This note may well have solved the entire mystery by explaining what happened.

But I'm not sure we should rely on the "pencil/pad" idea, which seems to have been added to a rescuer's account years later. It also seems too perfectly timed that at the very moment he was sat or laid down thinking what to put, a tracked vehicle or tank went overhead in the middle of nowhere, and did so without leaving any tracks or signs of crushing around the collapsed zone, or that when fleeing the tent he had taken a pencil/pad (unless these were already in his pockets). The photo of him lying with Alexander shows the pencil and notebook in his hands?

You're automatically assuming Lyudmila's injuries were all delivered at peak severity immediately, and therefore she could not have managed to walk a  mile down a mountain pass. But it's possible she initially had fractures which weren't separated, during whatever calamity struck them and she managed to stagger down the pass in pain. But downhill, in the dark, and without anything to steady herself, and the wind behind them, she may have had a series of falls/rolls, and at some point, since her rib cage wasn't able to flex, a sharp end of bone then punctured the lining of her heart. And the same for Nicolai, and the same for Semyon? I don't think so. Even more improbable than the falling theory?

Another possibility to explain broken ribs on either her or another hiker, is that someone fell on one of them at the cedars while scaling trees for firewood. They've been after thinner branches to tear off at the growing point, I noted such ends visible in a photo of the den material, and these repeated and exhausting climbs to obtain material which burnt out quickly will also IMO have caused the (pressure) sores on Dyatlov's ankles, rather than him being, as another theory goes, bound (and by only his legs). Imo the only way to explain the rav4 injuries is by (1) a crushing pressure exerted through snow that doesn't break limbs but forces the major volumes of the body (head/chest) down so hard that skin splits, throats bend, and the bone structures protecting those major volumes fracture. OR (2) multiple events = killing by humans or other.

Finally, if all 4 in the den had been able-bodied until driven over, then unless they all assessed the danger up at the tent had passed, which if a meterological phenomena it might, then I feel they would have all gone back together, for safety in numbers. They wouldn't send two men, one without shoes and certain to get frostbite, and a woman, to face off against the military/tribesmen/yeti/alien and recover all their things needed to survive. To me this indicates the 4 were the worst injured already, and what had been built in a soft snow drift worked at that stage as a triage. I have a preference for Zinaida, Rustem and Igor never making it down. The two Yuris just made it alive having been injured on the way and then expired. The two best dressed men never attempted to return because as far as they knew they were the only ones left and preferred the shelter of the den.

July 22, 2020, 02:49:19 AM
Reply #166
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Nigel Evans


Apologies Nigel, because your contribution is important to this Forum. I posted this in The Rav 4 Topic as well, last night.

Well I am reading with interest the various possibilities. The Event at the Ravine is obviously critical to ever being able to solve the Dyatlov Mystery. However, just a reminder about the position of Dubinina. Her final resting place is in a stream. The Authorities, who we can not really trust to have given all of the information or evidence, push the DECOMPOSITION THEORY and PREDATOR THEORY to explain the missing Eyes and Tongue and Facial Tissue. Low temperature slows the rate of decomposition.  Predators would eat away any body parts not just the parts that we see. Therefore the body of Dubinina should be very putrified and well eaten.  But that is not what we see with the body of Dubinina. In fact we dont see it with any of the bodies of the Dyatlov Group. What we do see is very unusual injuries not caused by decomposition or putrefaction.
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The "crushed theory" would have to consider evidence such as - sunken or missing eyes, parted skin at eyebrows exposing bone as signs of pressure. But the decomposition theory is very reasonable as well of course.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 04:24:46 AM by Nigel Evans »

July 22, 2020, 02:37:33 PM
Reply #167
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
When I went back over the autopsies of the rav4, it was mentioned that Simon, Nicholas and Lyuda had " hemorrhages with presence of brown pigment". To my understanding this means they were bleeding while still alive. This is taken from Launton Anderson's interpretation of the Russian autopsy reports.  If that means there were open bleeding wounds (not bruises?) then those individual wounds would be...

Other than Simon's and Lyuda's eyes being missing, I am not sure where they were bleeding from. Nickolas' was, I believe, around his mouth.

Of course I could have misinterpreted the interpretation and if I have, someone please tell me.

Can we assume that the English interpretation is accurate and that everything that should have been mentioned in the autopsies was mentioned?  Do our Russian friends on this site think it is accurate? If so,  is there anyone on this forum who could tell us if we are interpreting the autopsy reports correctly? It would really be nice to know.

Well you said it.  Can we assume anything about the Authorities Investigation. By all accounts there is missing Evidence. And the Autopsy Investigation leaves a lot to be desired.
DB

July 23, 2020, 02:55:40 PM
Reply #168

eurocentric

Guest

Everything i read about flail chests discusses the extreme pain, i can't see Semyon sat up thinking about what to put in his notebook with a busted rib cage. Lyudmila would have died quickly and there wouldn't have been any need to protect her from the cold so in your narrative she would have joined the 2 Yuris?

I can easily imagine a dying man wishing to write a short note to his most loved, to be found with his body, in the same way submariners in the Kursk did. This note may well have solved the entire mystery by explaining what happened.

But I'm not sure we should rely on the "pencil/pad" idea, which seems to have been added to a rescuer's account years later. It also seems too perfectly timed that at the very moment he was sat or laid down thinking what to put, a tracked vehicle or tank went overhead in the middle of nowhere, and did so without leaving any tracks or signs of crushing around the collapsed zone, or that when fleeing the tent he had taken a pencil/pad (unless these were already in his pockets). The photo of him lying with Alexander shows the pencil and notebook in his hands?

You're automatically assuming Lyudmila's injuries were all delivered at peak severity immediately, and therefore she could not have managed to walk a  mile down a mountain pass. But it's possible she initially had fractures which weren't separated, during whatever calamity struck them and she managed to stagger down the pass in pain. But downhill, in the dark, and without anything to steady herself, and the wind behind them, she may have had a series of falls/rolls, and at some point, since her rib cage wasn't able to flex, a sharp end of bone then punctured the lining of her heart. And the same for Nicolai, and the same for Semyon? I don't think so. Even more improbable than the falling theory?

Another possibility to explain broken ribs on either her or another hiker, is that someone fell on one of them at the cedars while scaling trees for firewood. They've been after thinner branches to tear off at the growing point, I noted such ends visible in a photo of the den material, and these repeated and exhausting climbs to obtain material which burnt out quickly will also IMO have caused the (pressure) sores on Dyatlov's ankles, rather than him being, as another theory goes, bound (and by only his legs). Imo the only way to explain the rav4 injuries is by (1) a crushing pressure exerted through snow that doesn't break limbs but forces the major volumes of the body (head/chest) down so hard that skin splits, throats bend, and the bone structures protecting those major volumes fracture. OR (2) multiple events = killing by humans or other.

Finally, if all 4 in the den had been able-bodied until driven over, then unless they all assessed the danger up at the tent had passed, which if a meterological phenomena it might, then I feel they would have all gone back together, for safety in numbers. They wouldn't send two men, one without shoes and certain to get frostbite, and a woman, to face off against the military/tribesmen/yeti/alien and recover all their things needed to survive. To me this indicates the 4 were the worst injured already, and what had been built in a soft snow drift worked at that stage as a triage. I have a preference for Zinaida, Rustem and Igor never making it down. The two Yuris just made it alive having been injured on the way and then expired. The two best dressed men never attempted to return because as far as they knew they were the only ones left and preferred the shelter of the den.

They have shelter, they have water, the only thing they're missing for survival is food. In your theory not only have they had the bad luck of whatever happened on the mountain, but no sooner have they built a den and settled down to write something than a heavy vehicle goes overhead, leaving no crushing to the snow surface. This then provides the only explanation of why they made no attempt to obtain what they needed to survive; there was no opportunity. It's a neat solution to explaining all the injuries happening at once, but the probability of all that timing and bad luck seems unlikely.

The bodies were not found crushed in the den, they were in the ravine 6 metres away, so if a vehicle had gone over them there it would surely have left external trauma without the cushioning effect of snow above them. Even a human stamping on a body leaves a footprinted bruise.

The position of the bodies in the stream looks to me like they may have created a human dam, 4 spooning dead hikers, and the chest wall of Lyudmila may originally have been pressed against the large rock by 3 others, and the force of water, which would fluctuate due to melting, before she eventually slid over it and ended in the kneeling position. Next up, potentially, is Semyon, so both bodies may have received broken ribs or had pre-existing fractures made worse this way, after death. If I placed a man on a wooden pallet and started piling paving slabs on his back to represent the increasing force, eventually his ribs would crack because they are the weakest point.

The pathologist should know if the fractures happened before or after death, from the initiation of a microscopic healing process and swellings, though the cold temperatues will slow that down, and they were all dead within hours. I believe he sent some samples off for analysis, but AFAIK he hasn't had every single fracture point analysed, and may automatically attribute them all as occurring before death.

As regards the pen/pad, you introduced it, but according to this site it appears to revolve around an anecdotal thing said by a rescuer many years later, there is no official record of it. It seems improbable a paper pad would survive in the stream for several months enough for a man in charge to grasp it and be frustrated there was nothing written down, as if it would still even be flat and legible. I've looked at the photo's at this site again and cannot clearly see this pen/cil and pad, and while rigor mortis can cause bodies to continue holding items in a death grip, for them to do so across months of running water of varying degrees of flow intensity, as soft tissues decompose, is less probable.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 11:44:29 PM by eurocentric »

July 24, 2020, 05:55:19 AM
Reply #169
Offline

Nigel Evans




They have shelter, they have water, the only thing they're missing for survival is food. In your theory not only have they had the bad luck of whatever happened on the mountain, but no sooner have they built a den and settled down to write something he would need daylight so probably hours later. They may all have been asleep.than a heavy vehicle goes overhead, or something else did it. leaving no crushing to the snow surface. This then provides the only explanation of why they made no attempt to obtain what they needed to survive; there was no opportunity. It's a neat solution to explaining all the injuries happening at once, but the probability of all that timing and bad luck seems unlikely. if you're at the wrong end of a military exercise (for instance) bad luck is guaranteed?

The bodies were not found crushed in the den, they were in the ravine 6 metres away, so if a vehicle had gone over them there it would surely have left external trauma without the cushioning effect of snow above them. Even a human stamping on a body leaves a footprinted bruise. That's the whole point of being crushed under a layer of snow?

The position of the bodies in the stream looks to me like they may have created a human dam, 4 spooning dead hikers, and the chest wall of Lyudmila may originally have been pressed against the large rock by 3 others, and the force of water, which would fluctuate due to melting, before she eventually slid over it and ended in the kneeling position. Next up, potentially, is Semyon, so both bodies may have received broken ribs or had pre-existing fractures made worse this way, after death. If I placed a man on a wooden pallet and started piling paving slabs on his back to represent the increasing force, eventually his ribs would crack because they are the weakest point. No the internal bleeding means that the fractures occurred with a beating heart that continued for some minutes. The fractures are definitely the cause of death.

The pathologist should know if the fractures happened before or after death, from the initiation of a microscopic healing process and swellings, though the cold temperatues will slow that down, and they were all dead within hours. I believe he sent some samples off for analysis, but AFAIK he hasn't had every single fracture point analysed, and may automatically attribute them all as occurring before death. as above.

As regards the pen/pad, you introduced it, no Askinadzi (who found Lyudmila) introduced it and the photo below supports that. but according to this site it appears to revolve around an anecdotal thing said by a rescuer many years later, there is no official record of it. It seems improbable a paper pad would survive in the stream for several months enough for a man in charge to grasp it and be frustrated there was nothing written down, as if it would still even be flat and legible. I've looked at the photo's at this site again and cannot clearly see this pen/cil and pad, and while rigor mortis can cause bodies to continue holding items in a death grip, being frozen in ice helps as well for them to do so across months of running water of varying degrees of flow intensity, as soft tissues decompose, is less probable.
What's Semyon holding in his hands?
  

July 24, 2020, 11:39:16 PM
Reply #170
Offline

Morski


What's Semyon holding in his hands?

[/quote]

As far as I see, his right hand seem to hold the strap of the camera, and in/around the left is more like a piece of fabric from the pants. What you refer to is I believe this:



If it is a pen, from the photo it looks like it is pierced into his hand, rather then holding it. To me it is only a piece of fabric from his loose and torn pants. And if there was paper and pen, it is odd enough to be spotted and reported by other members of the search party, not only Askinadzi years later.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 12:11:23 AM by Morski »
"Truth is the most valuable thing we have. Let us economize it." Mark Twain

July 25, 2020, 03:20:48 AM
Reply #171
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Nigel Evans


The resolution isn't good but i think i can see a small diary sized book jutting out from the left hand and a pencil in the right. This fits with the in situ photo i posted further back. As for depending on a sole witness, that's the standard of the case files. E.g. the Ortorten News original is missing but in that case there is one other witness to seeing it (can't remember his name). Askinadzi also challenges the 6m distance as more like "an arms length".

July 25, 2020, 12:31:45 PM
Reply #172
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The resolution isn't good but i think i can see a small diary sized book jutting out from the left hand and a pencil in the right. This fits with the in situ photo i posted further back. As for depending on a sole witness, that's the standard of the case files. E.g. the Ortorten News original is missing but in that case there is one other witness to seeing it (can't remember his name). Askinadzi also challenges the 6m distance as more like "an arms length".

Maybe the original handwritten Ortorten News is missing because it contained something that the Authorities didnt want the public to see  !  ?  And it is interesting that that newspaper was fixed to a prominent position in the Tent.
DB

June 07, 2021, 03:10:11 PM
Reply #173
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Manti



 


What if the dashed area is the tent and not the den, and the orange track is a tree not a heavy vehicle? I wonder what Nigel's reaction would be

June 07, 2021, 06:30:50 PM
Reply #174
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Jacques-Emile


Read the precise words of autopsy by Воскресение(?). In English or Russian. This is one of the Bibles to read along with 1079. Otherwise is blind speculation, disrespecting the dead.

June 07, 2021, 06:36:34 PM
Reply #175
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Jacques-Emile


Возрожденный(?). All right here on site. Read.

June 11, 2021, 08:05:37 AM
Reply #176
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WinterLeia


I’m somewhat confused by the fact that everyone is calculating differences in snow depths between what may have been when they either dug or found the snow den to what it was when the bodies were found. There were snowstorms in the time between those two events as well as a spring thaw. Unless we know how much snow fell and how much snow thawed, all we are left with are assumptions based on rough estimates. Considering what we’re dealing with, even being off by a little amount could change the dynamics significantly.

Secondly, I don’t doubt for a second that water can move a human body. I do doubt that it could move a body, but not the loose items of clothing on the den floor. They were not smashed into the floor. Once the body slid off it, if there was even a body on it, the garment would have been carried downstream as well. And I’m sorry, but the placement of those pads, four of them in each one of the corners, is a bit too symmetrical for me to believe that clothes and tree branches just happen to fall or be cast off like that. And I have yet to see an explanation for why they cut clothes off their dead friends or even ripped their own clothes in half and/or discarded them all over the place. The case file reads like a modern day Hansel and Gretel story, follow the breadcrumbs (or clothes, in this instance) to find the den. Did Luda believe she was wearing too many clothes, so she ripped her sweater in half? If she didn’t need it for something else, then there’s no reason she would have done that.

As far as there being pockets of empty air and den collapses, yes, these are possible, but so are a lot of other things. However, I have become extremely suspicious of any theory that has them buried in snow, as it seems to be the one theory that keeps getting pushed time and time again. First it was an avalanche at the tent, then it was a slab avalanche at the tent, and now it’s an avalanche at the den. If that’s ever put into serious question, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone didn’t start arguing that snow fell from the cedar and caused the injuries.

I agree, however, that the only way they could have built that den is that it is either a natural formation or required a small amount of digging through loose powdery snow. It’s not just a lack of snow shovels, but also the lack of proper attire coupled with the fact that they had already walked a fair distance through freezing temperatures from the tent to the cedar. Digging in snow with their bare hands or even gloves would have dropped their body temperature even more. The most likely scenario is that they would have froze to death before they got very far in the construction.

I’m all for simple explanations. And I realize we will not have all the answers or there won’t be contradictions even if we happen to alight on what really did happen. However, it should at least answer the most pertinent questions. The theory of a den collapse doesn’t answer what happened at the tent that put them in that situation to begin with. It doesn’t answer why Luda’s brown sweater was literally the most radiated of all the clothing. It doesn’t explain why the protocol to close the case stated she was wearing George’s radiated clothing when neither the official autopsy, the description submitted by the people who found her body, or the radiation testing support this. Was that just an honest mistake or was that put in because radiation on George’s clothing is a lot easier to explain than radiation on Luda’s clothing? Why does the written description of how the bodies were found in the ravine differ from what the pictures show? They say that the men’s’ heads were lying north along the stream and Luda’s head was lying in the opposite direction against the current? She was lying perpendicular to the men, so if the current was flowing north and her head was pointing south, the men’s heads were facing east. Again, a honest mistake? Is it just a coincidence that the bodies, if found in the position described in the case file, would have made the theory of them being carried there by the natural movement of water to be more likely? The water would have had a lot easier time of doing that if it wasn’t facing the resistance of the full horizontal length of three grown adult male bodies stacked one after the other (If you hold your hand outside the window of a moving car, you’ll understand what I mean. Turn your palm to the wind and there’s a lot of resistance. Turn your hand so the wind hits one side and there’s a lot less resistance). How many mistakes can be explained away before we’re allowed to wonder if they’re really mistakes? It doesn’t answer why there were foot bindings found at the scene that belonged to no one. It doesn’t explain why the searchers would have dug ten centimeters down to find some clothing and then not used the avalanche probes, but instead decided to just dig down ten meters more without any idea something was even down there other than the discarded clothes. They had found discarded clothes all over the place. Were they digging ten meter holes at every spot where clothes had been found? I would think the avalanche probes were there to save them from expending their energy fruitlessly. So the one place they dug just happened to be where the den was? Common sense would suggest they would find the bodies first, not flattened branches and clothes under ten meters of snow.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 10:33:53 AM by WinterLeia »

June 14, 2021, 11:15:32 AM
Reply #177
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Sunny


It is possible that for example 2 of them were inside the cave or den, and two were outside on top of the snow roof, when it collapsed , and the two fell on top of the others, causing all to suffer injuries. And there's some snow in between them, but in spring it melted away in that water.
Or if they all were in the den, the 3 who died outside, were looking for the den, and in darkness they walked on top of the den and it collapsed. But the 3 never even knew they had killed the 4. Or maybe they screamed but there were nothing they could do.