April 27, 2024, 06:18:55 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Ski Boots  (Read 4995 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

January 02, 2021, 05:28:25 PM
Read 4995 times

DAXXY

Guest
I know it's been touched on before but I have zero experience of skiing or the equipment and any information or thoughts would be welcome here. 
There is a general idea that for the group to be outside in socks means 'panic' and 'emergency'. Were ski boots even good for walking in 1959 or were they stiff soled and difficult to walk anywhere which is why the soft tent boot (valenki) was used around the camp ? Or if you didn't have valenki then 2 pairs of good wool socks, which is what the group were wearing.
So, if we discount the tent evidence as any sort of indicator,  this now lowers the relevance of the fact that they were under dressed to be outside the tent.  Can we all agree that before anything seems to have happened they were dressed very normally for being in camp in the evening ?
The mystery is actually in these questions....
What reason compelled them to walk so far from the camp ? in the direction they took ?  and stay away so long ?  and what happened to cause their deaths while they were being compelled to be away from the camp ?
https://www.skiinghistory.org/news/short-colorful-history-ski-boots
« Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 06:14:41 PM by DAXXY »
 

January 02, 2021, 08:13:03 PM
Reply #1
Offline

Mark II


It’s one of the most interesting theories/possibilities I have read here, but still it doesn’t fit very well. There were prints of bare feet or dramatically inadequate socks on the slope. Also, if they left by their will under no stress, it’s unclear why they didn’t take with them other pieces of important equipment (axes, knives, second flashlight, maybe even the stove).
 

January 03, 2021, 05:53:54 AM
Reply #2

DAXXY

Guest
The fact that they didn't take special equipment or go in the direction of the food store tells us something.  I think the 2 yuris were in the wood getting fire wood for the stove but couldn't get back for some reason and a little later the others go out to search for them.  They all walk in the direction they know the yuris took either by their tracks or because they know they went to the nearest trees for fire wood.. So why would they
 take equipment?  But once they find the 2 yuris things begin from there and they are now staying outside too long and getting colder all the time.
 

January 03, 2021, 05:58:28 AM
Reply #3

DAXXY

Guest
This is what I'm thinking at the moment...
Search Scenario

 In the tent in the evening with weather worsening 2 have left to go to the woods & stream location to either get water for drinking or cleaning teeth etc. or maybe for toilet needs, or possibly for some fire wood for the stove.  They are not intending to be gone long so don't put full clothing on.  They can't find their way back to the tent in the blizzard and fog and they start to quickly succumb to the cold. They follow their own tracks back to the shelter of the trees.  They stay together and light a fire (maybe using the wood they were already carrying) and one climbs the tree to try and see a light from the tent to see where it is.  He breaks off branches to line the inside of a snow den. He doesn't want to leave his friend in case he can't find his way back to him and the fire dies. They are both succumbing to extreme cold.   They will die without action so one of them puts wood on the fire and leaves his friend by a fire and looks for the best place to quickly dig a shelter and line it with the vegetation hoping to drag his friend inside.  This is why the den (den 1) is so small, its only for 2 men.  When he's put the vegetation inside the den he returns and he and his friend remove their freezing wet outer clothes (to help stop cooling)  to put under themselves in the den to help the clothing start to dry.  He may have considered trying to improvise a cushion out of trousers filled with vegetation, or it was an attempt to dry the trousers quicker, but there wasn't time.

'A pair of brown trousers tied at the ankles but flared open with a tear to widen them'
https://dyatlovpass.com/gallery-the-den
.
While he is away from the fire digging a shelter the fire burns his friends leg.
This was Yuri Doroshenko he was 180 cm tall, and the most sturdy and tallest member of the group.  He has to work fast, trying to save the life of his unconscious friend Yuri Krivonischenko, he may also be sweating.  In the freezing conditions this efforts are exhausting for him and he returns to try and drag his friend to the den.  He may have dragged his friend to the den but it collapses and he decides to drag him back to where the fire is.  By now too much time has passed and he too succumbs to the freezing cold and wet conditions.

By now the others have come out of the tent and keep searching for their friends, They slowly come down the slope shouting in the wind.  Eventually they find their tracks and follow them to find their friends bodies at the cedar tree.  They try to revive them but can't.  Eventually the 2 leaders confirm the 2 yuris are dead, but now even more time has passed, and they are all freezing and wet too. They have walked down in to a huge pool of feeezing cold air.  Now the cold is killing them too. They start collapsing, some stay with their collapsed friends and scavenge clothing from the bodies of their 2 dead friends to help protect hands and feet from the snow.  (Semyon Zolotaryov has a rolled up newspaper on him to pack clothing if it becomes wet but hasn't used it or offered it to any other casualty at this stage.  It is found still rolled up on his body).

Like Yuri Doroshenko it appears to be a golden rule and standard procedure for everyone when this happens that you don't waste any time, you dig a snow shelter to stay alive, or to get your casualty to a safe place where they can recover. They haven't time now to collect firewood and climb back up to the tent on the exposed pass with casualties and prepare the stove etc...The quicker solution to their survival is all around them.  Nobody in this group knew of Yuris first little shelter (den 1), or it may have collapsed.  So they decide to dig a large shelter for 7 in a large bank of snow.  (den 2, in the ravine) They manage to dig a large den out but it collapsed while five are inside crushing and badly injuring them.  2 people are outside. (Zinaida Kolmogorova and Igor Dyatlov) They attempt to dig to get their 5 friends out but they are exhausted and freezing, the snow and ice is 4-5 meters deep and they have no tools. and now they are freezing and still without shelter.  They only manage to dig out Rustem Slobodin who is badly injured with a skull fracture. They decide they must save themselves and try to reach the only shelter left which is the tent.  Or they will die too. They find their way out from the woods and ravine, with igor and Zinaida having to support or carry the injured Rustem exhausting them further.  They can't see the tent.  They know they have to follow rising ground through the blizzard up to the pass.  Unfortunately they are so exhausted and frozen from the the cold that they collapse on the slope climbing up to the tent.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 08:03:08 AM by DAXXY »
 

January 03, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Reply #4
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I know it's been touched on before but I have zero experience of skiing or the equipment and any information or thoughts would be welcome here. 
There is a general idea that for the group to be outside in socks means 'panic' and 'emergency'. Were ski boots even good for walking in 1959 or were they stiff soled and difficult to walk anywhere which is why the soft tent boot (valenki) was used around the camp ? Or if you didn't have valenki then 2 pairs of good wool socks, which is what the group were wearing.
So, if we discount the tent evidence as any sort of indicator,  this now lowers the relevance of the fact that they were under dressed to be outside the tent.  Can we all agree that before anything seems to have happened they were dressed very normally for being in camp in the evening ?
The mystery is actually in these questions....
What reason compelled them to walk so far from the camp ? in the direction they took ?  and stay away so long ?  and what happened to cause their deaths while they were being compelled to be away from the camp ?
https://www.skiinghistory.org/news/short-colorful-history-ski-boots

But whats your point here. Is it about Ski Boots or why they left the Tent  !  ? 
DB
 

January 03, 2021, 02:48:29 PM
Reply #5
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
This is what I'm thinking at the moment...
Search Scenario

 In the tent in the evening with weather worsening 2 have left to go to the woods & stream location to either get water for drinking or cleaning teeth etc. or maybe for toilet needs, or possibly for some fire wood for the stove.  They are not intending to be gone long so don't put full clothing on.  They can't find their way back to the tent in the blizzard and fog and they start to quickly succumb to the cold. They follow their own tracks back to the shelter of the trees.  They stay together and light a fire (maybe using the wood they were already carrying) and one climbs the tree to try and see a light from the tent to see where it is.  He breaks off branches to line the inside of a snow den. He doesn't want to leave his friend in case he can't find his way back to him and the fire dies. They are both succumbing to extreme cold.   They will die without action so one of them puts wood on the fire and leaves his friend by a fire and looks for the best place to quickly dig a shelter and line it with the vegetation hoping to drag his friend inside.  This is why the den (den 1) is so small, its only for 2 men.  When he's put the vegetation inside the den he returns and he and his friend remove their freezing wet outer clothes (to help stop cooling)  to put under themselves in the den to help the clothing start to dry.  He may have considered trying to improvise a cushion out of trousers filled with vegetation, or it was an attempt to dry the trousers quicker, but there wasn't time.

'A pair of brown trousers tied at the ankles but flared open with a tear to widen them'
https://dyatlovpass.com/gallery-the-den
.
While he is away from the fire digging a shelter the fire burns his friends leg.
This was Yuri Doroshenko he was 180 cm tall, and the most sturdy and tallest member of the group.  He has to work fast, trying to save the life of his unconscious friend Yuri Krivonischenko, he may also be sweating.  In the freezing conditions this efforts are exhausting for him and he returns to try and drag his friend to the den.  He may have dragged his friend to the den but it collapses and he decides to drag him back to where the fire is.  By now too much time has passed and he too succumbs to the freezing cold and wet conditions.

By now the others have come out of the tent and keep searching for their friends, They slowly come down the slope shouting in the wind.  Eventually they find their tracks and follow them to find their friends bodies at the cedar tree.  They try to revive them but can't.  Eventually the 2 leaders confirm the 2 yuris are dead, but now even more time has passed, and they are all freezing and wet too. They have walked down in to a huge pool of feeezing cold air.  Now the cold is killing them too. They start collapsing, some stay with their collapsed friends and scavenge clothing from the bodies of their 2 dead friends to help protect hands and feet from the snow.  (Semyon Zolotaryov has a rolled up newspaper on him to pack clothing if it becomes wet but hasn't used it or offered it to any other casualty at this stage.  It is found still rolled up on his body).

Like Yuri Doroshenko it appears to be a golden rule and standard procedure for everyone when this happens that you don't waste any time, you dig a snow shelter to stay alive, or to get your casualty to a safe place where they can recover. They haven't time now to collect firewood and climb back up to the tent on the exposed pass with casualties and prepare the stove etc...The quicker solution to their survival is all around them.  Nobody in this group knew of Yuris first little shelter (den 1), or it may have collapsed.  So they decide to dig a large shelter for 7 in a large bank of snow.  (den 2, in the ravine) They manage to dig a large den out but it collapsed while five are inside crushing and badly injuring them.  2 people are outside. (Zinaida Kolmogorova and Igor Dyatlov) They attempt to dig to get their 5 friends out but they are exhausted and freezing, the snow and ice is 4-5 meters deep and they have no tools. and now they are freezing and still without shelter.  They only manage to dig out Rustem Slobodin who is badly injured with a skull fracture. They decide they must save themselves and try to reach the only shelter left which is the tent.  Or they will die too. They find their way out from the woods and ravine, with igor and Zinaida having to support or carry the injured Rustem exhausting them further.  They can't see the tent.  They know they have to follow rising ground through the blizzard up to the pass.  Unfortunately they are so exhausted and frozen from the the cold that they collapse on the slope climbing up to the tent.

Its a mile to the Forest. Do you really believe that they would travel that far at night in very poor weather conditions not properly dressed  !  ? 
DB
 

January 03, 2021, 03:28:30 PM
Reply #6

DAXXY

Guest
Yes under the right compulsion. 
My point is basically clarification.  Were they under dressed ? or were they dressed properly for the camp which is normal clothes for where they were.  But they were found away from the camp and without ski boots or ski's.  Like ski boots were for skiing only..not walking around in...they had an over riding compulsion for them all to be so far from the tent.  Which was to find their missing friends.  Then the situation developed from there and got worse. Just like many incident pits do.  (for want of a nail the war was lost) There is a distance factor and a time factor.  They were all compelled to be that far from the tent for a reason that affected them all, and they were all compelled to be away from the shelter of the tent so long for a reason that affected them all.

These were young college people in their 20's in a remote place, who knew each other as good friends and had bonded as a group. but if 2 were missing they would search and stay searching till they found them. They couldn't just leave their friends. So they carried on searching, I think they knew the 2 yuris had gone for firewood for the stove and that's why they all go in the same direction instead of several directions or to the food store.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 03:58:57 PM by DAXXY »
 

January 04, 2021, 04:24:56 AM
Reply #7

DAXXY

Guest
'Why did they leave barefoot? - I ask the last question that concerns me.
I can explain. Down there is a steep slope, which is crazy to descend in total darkness in slippery ski boots.'
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?action=post;topic=768.0;last_msg=11806
 

January 04, 2021, 12:32:55 PM
Reply #8
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Yes under the right compulsion. 
My point is basically clarification.  Were they under dressed ? or were they dressed properly for the camp which is normal clothes for where they were.  But they were found away from the camp and without ski boots or ski's.  Like ski boots were for skiing only..not walking around in...they had an over riding compulsion for them all to be so far from the tent.  Which was to find their missing friends.  Then the situation developed from there and got worse. Just like many incident pits do.  (for want of a nail the war was lost) There is a distance factor and a time factor.  They were all compelled to be that far from the tent for a reason that affected them all, and they were all compelled to be away from the shelter of the tent so long for a reason that affected them all.

These were young college people in their 20's in a remote place, who knew each other as good friends and had bonded as a group. but if 2 were missing they would search and stay searching till they found them. They couldn't just leave their friends. So they carried on searching, I think they knew the 2 yuris had gone for firewood for the stove and that's why they all go in the same direction instead of several directions or to the food store.

Under the right compulsion  !  ?  Well I hardly think it would be any thing minor or insignificant. More like they were faced with a threat to life at the Tent and left in a hurry without dressing properly or taking any equipment to survive outside in those extreme weather conditions.
DB
 

January 04, 2021, 12:34:56 PM
Reply #9
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
'Why did they leave barefoot? - I ask the last question that concerns me.
I can explain. Down there is a steep slope, which is crazy to descend in total darkness in slippery ski boots.'
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?action=post;topic=768.0;last_msg=11806

Or they were faced with a life threatening situation and didnt have time to dress properly.
DB
 

January 04, 2021, 01:56:21 PM
Reply #10

DAXXY

Guest
Not necessarily.  They could have gone outside expecting to meet their missing friends on the way up.  When they didn't meet them they became more concerned and looked further away.  They became more concerned.  More compelled to find them.  They set torches up to guide themselves back to the tent.  Their search got further out.  They wanted to find the two Yuris and I think they did.

Fear of some specific thing is only one form of compulsion.  Mysteriously losing your friends in a remote place in bad weather who you were speaking to just an hour or so before would also compel them to search and as they got further away from the tent with no result it only reinforced their resolve to keep searching as they were and not go back to put on coats and get axes etc. because...
 
1)   They had no reason to think they needed any equipment

2)   Going back to the tent would use up time when they have already gone as far down towards the wood.

3)    They may have left the tent in the normal way then collapsed the tent and put some snow on top because without people in it the tent became more susceptible to wind damage and collecting their coats and boots wouldn't be easy in a collapsed tent in the dark and even more time consuming.  So they carried on searching further away as they were.
 

January 05, 2021, 02:31:03 PM
Reply #11
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Not necessarily.  They could have gone outside expecting to meet their missing friends on the way up.  When they didn't meet them they became more concerned and looked further away.  They became more concerned.  More compelled to find them.  They set torches up to guide themselves back to the tent.  Their search got further out.  They wanted to find the two Yuris and I think they did.

Fear of some specific thing is only one form of compulsion.  Mysteriously losing your friends in a remote place in bad weather who you were speaking to just an hour or so before would also compel them to search and as they got further away from the tent with no result it only reinforced their resolve to keep searching as they were and not go back to put on coats and get axes etc. because...
 
1)   They had no reason to think they needed any equipment

2)   Going back to the tent would use up time when they have already gone as far down towards the wood.

3)    They may have left the tent in the normal way then collapsed the tent and put some snow on top because without people in it the tent became more susceptible to wind damage and collecting their coats and boots wouldn't be easy in a collapsed tent in the dark and even more time consuming.  So they carried on searching further away as they were.

So you are saying that 7 of the Dyatlov Group decide to abandon their Tent and go not properly dressed or equipped down the Mountainside in those awful weather conditions  !  ? 
DB
 

January 05, 2021, 04:08:47 PM
Reply #12

DAXXY

Guest
No  grin1
Not abandon
The leaders realize the 2 yuris are overdue so tell the others to get up and out to do a search.  Before they leave the tent they lower it and put snow on it to weigh it down so the wind can't get under it.  They are mostly wearing layers of clothing and layers of wool socks that still remain warm even when wet.  The climate may have been windy, dry and very cold but not soaking wet.  They put a flashlight on the tent that is switched off to conserve the battery.  They go some distance down and put another flashlight that is switched on because they want to find their way back to the tent that night.  The lights tell us they never planned to abandon the tent because the lights lead people back to the tent.  The last one is for the first man back to switch on to shine from the highest most visible point of the return journey, to guide any stragglers back.

They also know where to go to search for the 2 Yuris because they all go in the same direction. (And not to the safety of the forest where the food store is, with fire wood ready and waiting, which would be the most obvious escape route)
They didn't take tools etc because they were just going out to look for their friends.
As they got further away it was not practical for individuals to return back to the lowered partially buried tent in the dark to try and get a coat or some felt boots. They were all searching, possibly in an organised manner so everyone was needed, and the climate may not have been wet but dry and cold.
As they enter the wood they find the 2 Yuris...
Just a suggestion,  grin1 I find it plausible given the evidence.  All we can really hope for is to produce plausible theories that match or even help explain some or most of the evidence.  Because so much of the necessary evidence is random and poorly recorded and also suffers from translation.  We can see the choices that the group made though and they tell us things. 
The lowered tent
The layers of wool socks
The direction they all took
What they didn't take
Leaving the flashlights to guide them back.

Fire wood could well have been the issue why the 2 yuris were missing.  They may have needed even more fire wood because this was only the first night.  They were going to go 10km along to another mountain the next day and return.  Surely then they would not move the tent.  So this was going to be a two night base tent before they dropped back down to their store.  (I'm guessing here though ) So 2 nights fire wood plus some for hot drinks etc. 



« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 04:34:03 PM by DAXXY »
 

January 06, 2021, 11:26:22 AM
Reply #13
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
No  grin1
Not abandon
The leaders realize the 2 yuris are overdue so tell the others to get up and out to do a search.  Before they leave the tent they lower it and put snow on it to weigh it down so the wind can't get under it.  They are mostly wearing layers of clothing and layers of wool socks that still remain warm even when wet.  The climate may have been windy, dry and very cold but not soaking wet.  They put a flashlight on the tent that is switched off to conserve the battery.  They go some distance down and put another flashlight that is switched on because they want to find their way back to the tent that night.  The lights tell us they never planned to abandon the tent because the lights lead people back to the tent.  The last one is for the first man back to switch on to shine from the highest most visible point of the return journey, to guide any stragglers back.

They also know where to go to search for the 2 Yuris because they all go in the same direction. (And not to the safety of the forest where the food store is, with fire wood ready and waiting, which would be the most obvious escape route)
They didn't take tools etc because they were just going out to look for their friends.
As they got further away it was not practical for individuals to return back to the lowered partially buried tent in the dark to try and get a coat or some felt boots. They were all searching, possibly in an organised manner so everyone was needed, and the climate may not have been wet but dry and cold.
As they enter the wood they find the 2 Yuris...
Just a suggestion,  grin1 I find it plausible given the evidence.  All we can really hope for is to produce plausible theories that match or even help explain some or most of the evidence.  Because so much of the necessary evidence is random and poorly recorded and also suffers from translation.  We can see the choices that the group made though and they tell us things. 
The lowered tent
The layers of wool socks
The direction they all took
What they didn't take
Leaving the flashlights to guide them back.

Fire wood could well have been the issue why the 2 yuris were missing.  They may have needed even more fire wood because this was only the first night.  They were going to go 10km along to another mountain the next day and return.  Surely then they would not move the tent.  So this was going to be a two night base tent before they dropped back down to their store.  (I'm guessing here though ) So 2 nights fire wood plus some for hot drinks etc. 




Well its not a bad theory actually the way you have put it. It more than matches many of the wild theories. Its just a great shame that we still lack so much important Evidence. Evidence that could corroborate any theories. I remember when I was younger I was with a friend and we decided to climb Mt Snowdon in Winter time. We didnt do the full scale climbing thing, but we walked and scrambled our way to near the Summit, a distance of about 4 miles from where we parked our car. So it was cold and dry on the lower slopes but soon changed about 100 metres from the Summit. It wasnt for nothing that the old climbers used to practice on Mt Snowdon before doing the Everest climb. So there Iam in pumps / plimpsolls and corduroy trousers and jacket. And we reach thick snow and ice walls and heavy mist and the temperature dropped like a stone, visibility almost zero. We were passed by an Army climbing team who looked at me as if I must be mad. Well obviously we decided we had gone far enough and beat a retreat. Just goes to show.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 11:40:16 AM by sarapuk »
DB
 

January 06, 2021, 01:23:35 PM
Reply #14

DAXXY

Guest
That's a classic situation wet mist, wind, change in weather, wrong clothes.  If you couldn't have found your way back down you'd have been heading in to hypothermia territory.  Say you'd got lost on high moorland like that.  Nobody would know until someone reported you missing.  Then someone has to find your car.  That's a long time in a worsening situation even before any search starts.  Classic Incident Pit. 
 

January 06, 2021, 02:08:25 PM
Reply #15

Jeff

Guest
What if they were running away from the cedar toward the tent? I can't believe that the team will send poorly dressed people in socks up the slope.
 
 

January 06, 2021, 02:43:09 PM
Reply #16

DAXXY

Guest
I think 3 were, not from the cedar, from den 2. after it collapsed.   but they were exhausted and hypothermic and 2 were helping one who had a fractured skull
Dyatlov, and Kolmogorova. were helping Slobodin back to the tent.