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41

General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by Partorg on April 10, 2024, 06:50:01 PM »

I was thinking that there might have been some sort of fresh snow collapse, relatively insignificant in hind sight because we know there can not be an "avalanche" at that location.

Nobody talks about the avalanche that sweeps away trains But if your tent and everything in it are under 2 - 2.5 feet of  snow, flowing like sugar and you see that it is not possible to dig it empty-handed out within 30 - 40 minutes, while feeling the wind blowing through your sweater like gauzethen, the idea go into the forest lighting a fire waiting for the wind to subside, and then returning to the excavations mai seem the only correct. Although, of course, it is not a fact that it will really be like that correct but this is not at all the same as throw down the tent and going into the forest because of the mere fear of a possible avalanche. That’s what we’re talking about.

I believe that the best people to determine what causes what injuries are experts in emergency medicine.

Agree a little more than completely.
I have always said that about the ability of injured people to perform certain actions, you should ask not forensics, but trauma surgeons because they receive this information first-hand.

If you fall, you land on your palms, not with clenched fists.

Don't agree. Even at a temperature ≈ of 0°C and with a slight wind, the joints of the fingers quickly lose mobility and clenched fist opens with great difficulty.
All five of those found in February-March had frostbite of the fingers of III – IV degrees. So they most likely fell and got up using fists.

The question of the location of the crack on Slobodin’s head deserves separate study. From a careful reading of the descriptive part of the Certificate of Forensic Medical Examination of the Corpse, it follows that an error was probably made in the “Conclusion” since a crack 6 cm long, not reaching the sagittal suture by only 1.5 cm, could be located not on the left frontal (as written in the "Conclusion") but on the left parietal bone
This is all the more likely because the frontal bone is unpaired and there is no LEFT frontal bone.

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General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by Ziljoe on April 10, 2024, 04:48:42 PM »

Sorry Partorg. I may not have explained myself well. I was thinking that there might have been some sort of fresh snow collapse, relatively insignificant in hind sight because we know there can not be an "avalanche" at that location.

I'm only musing the thought of the hikers perception of a small collapse of snow and how they interpreted that possible event. If they did not know exactly where they pitched the tent in low visibility, they "may"  have thought it's better to move away in case worse was to come. They were correct in where they pitched the tent for safety, it's just if doubt came in.

It is the best I can think of regarding motivation to cut the tent and move away.

I agree that it's too perfect for it to be staged, if there was staging it would be easier to have the tent destroyed and equipment out with the tent and to locate the tent directly under 1079.

They are only thoughts. I welcome your thoughts? .

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General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by Partorg on April 10, 2024, 04:25:43 PM »

all they needed was to think there was going to be a avalanche.

Completely excluded. Out of fear alone, no one will throw a tent and go into the forest bare-assed. If there were concerns, they would not have put up a tent in this place, and if concerns had arisen later, they would have moved it to another place. That's all.
It is also wisest to abandon the idea of ​​«staging» once and for all. Government agencies do not have the slightest sense in acting by guerrilla methods, and private villains would simply be  just be too lazy to engage in a staged event thought out to the utmost detail. “Vlom” as our gangsters say.

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General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by eurocentric on April 09, 2024, 02:24:02 PM »

Wonder if there’s no mystery at all. The hikers thought, and I emphasize thought, an avalanche was happening. Who wouldn’t be a bit paranoid? Stiff wind, blowing snow, nighttime – and inside a tent on a mountain slope. The hikers got out of the tent as quickly as possible, most of them with no coat, shoes, hat or gloves. Head for the forest and build a fire large enough to stay warm until morning. But that doesn’t work. So…they split into two groups (Yuri K. and Yuri D. are unable to walk). While one group of three starts back for the tent to retrieve warm clothes, the other four build a snow den. The three climbing the slope freeze to death. The other four had no way of knowing that part of their snow den was built over a tributary of a river. That part collapses and the four plunge onto rocks in the tributary, with two breaking ribs and a third fracturing his skull. As the weeks pass, their bodies are covered in many feet of snow. The weight of the snow exacerbates their injuries, breaking additional ribs and widening the skull fracture. Nine hikers fled the tent and nine hikers died from hypothermia or a sudden fall into a ravine and subsequent hypothermia or perhaps from the severity of their injuries. 

Wonder if…

It would need a bit of refinement. They rush out of the tent, their footprints later covered by freshly fallen snow, and those found belonging to nosy Mansi/geologists/loggers who inspect the abandoned tent, and they couldn't find their way back to a partially submerged, snow-covered tent in the dark, even with torches, and only have a limited time they can spend doing so before heading to the forest at the mercy of the elements.

Maybe more than one snow den would need to be made, and perhaps it would have to be to eventually house 7 people, and this second one collapsed, because the one found appeared to be some distance away from the ravine, and the floor of 'seats' appeared intact.

I've always thought some of the chest fractures were caused after death. Unless the pathologist tested them all he could not say they all occurred before death, only that the small number he sampled, possibly singular, did so. With Semyon found laid on his right side it's easy to imagine how he may have sustained some injuries during a fall, perhaps when being skittled by the rising wind, and then subsequently the increasing weight of drifted and falling snow breaks additional ribs when pressing down on the floor of the ravine. But it could then be argued why didn't this happen to all four.

I've sometimes wondered if they heard cracking sounds across the slope as the mountain froze up again at night, but I am speculating that is even audible there, even when placing yourself inside a stethoscopic trench. But geologically it's clear that meltwater and moisture getting into fissures in rocks during the day splits them as they freeze at night, this explaining the screed of loose rock covering much of the mountain's surface and especially the peak, as seen in summer, and possibly making it more barren than most. If you were laid there and already anxious about the tent siting and then you hear noises in the dark you might be spooked enough to be out with your torches convinced something was about to happen.

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General Discussion / Re: The Last Leg

« Last post by Arjan on April 09, 2024, 12:06:05 PM »

The details found by both search parties are revealing: this is obvious.

Several items - that nowadays is so obvious for a trip in a cold area in the mountains - are not found by both search parties.

Three of these items - that are not found by both search parties - are:
- maps of the area
- a gasoline stove for heating food and water in case of emergency
- basic mountaineering gear beyond two ice-axes.
Update on maps: The notebook of Maslennikov - scan 13 - indicates that the group had several maps with them.

Personally I think that the group did not have these items/gear with them.

The absence of maps may have caused that the group had not passed the Dyatlov pass.
The absence of a gasoline stove may have caused that group members had to look for running water: the ravine had been the possible source nearby.
The absence of adequate gear for self arrest may have caused that one or two members had not been able to perform a self-arrest after making a slide on the ascend to the passage above the Dyatlov pass.

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General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by gunmat on April 09, 2024, 11:42:33 AM »

Thanks for the links, will get back to it alter when I have my translated autopsy reports..

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General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by Ziljoe on April 09, 2024, 10:51:52 AM »

Gunmat. I have supplied examples. This is an incident that happened in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairngorm_Plateau_disaster

Edging closer and without reference points in the whiteout, they realised that they had got very close to a person on her hands and knees. Davidson was still up on the plateau and trying to crawl for help. Two crew were unloaded 64 metres (70 yd) away, the closest they could manage. Then, they reached the casualty but could not carry her to the helicopter because her legs were locked in a kneeling position. The helicopter could get no closer because when it applied power, the blowing snow obliterated vision and so one of the crew jumped out to lead it in the right direction by using the winch wire. There was no sign of anyone else from Davidson's group. Davidson was taken by helicopter to Aviemore, where she was met by ambulance. She was in the advanced stages of hypothermia and her hands were frozen solid, but although she was confused and barely able to speak, she managed to let her rescuers know that the rest of the party was close to where she had been rescued.[50] She could say only the words "Burn – lochan – buried" to rescuer Brian Hall, but that gave sufficient clues.[51]

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1507.msg24041#msg24041

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General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by Ziljoe on April 09, 2024, 10:45:33 AM »

The photos of how the bodies were found does back up freezing in the cold. I think it's termed the boxer postion as in Igor. The bodies were found 3 weeks after death so Im not sure where "emergency medicine" comes in. This may be a translation issue.

When alive but suffering the conditions of freezing, I would argue that the palm , up to certain point., Can not be used . The dexterity has gone.

Death by hypothermia is complex and the data and observations are only coming to light now. Perhaps we have to look at data from now going backwards.

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General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by gunmat on April 09, 2024, 10:31:42 AM »

To Ziljoe :Emergency medicine is a Norwegian term that encompasses physicians who specialize in injuries resulting from accidents or inflicted violence. Post mortem images show nothing. It is natural to close the hand when freezing. It is also a completely natural reflex to cushion the fall with the palm when falling, rather than with a clenched fist. One does not need movable fingers to cushion the fall with the inside of the hand. I will delve into this more thoroughly after having the autopsy reports translated into my native language directly from Russian. All cases are as complex as we make them out to be.

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General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by MDGross on April 09, 2024, 10:18:05 AM »

Thanks for the kind words Ziljoe. And thanks GlennM for your post directed at Axelrod.

You somehow skipped over the key words in my post, Axelrod, which are "wonder if..." I don't know anything about this bizarre case with certainty and I've never claimed that I did. I offer educated guesses and speculation on this forum like most other posters.

I think about these nine courageous and young men and women almost every day. So, yes, I'm there with them. At least in my mind.