Theories Discussion > Yeti / Snowman
"Yeti" photo enhanced
alecsandros:
--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on May 27, 2020, 04:09:12 PM ---This old method is more than enough to explain all the injuries found on the bodies of the 9 hikers. Note that the blunt objects are made of wood and not of metal (except for Dubinina's tongue, which probably required a small pocket knife).
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure the attack with wooden clubs could have produced the multiple broken ribs found on two of the members of Dyatlov group. Even with multiple blows, it's hard to produce such extreme damage...
ALso, as the tent was emplaced on the exposed mountain slope, there was theoretically little chance for the attackers to approach unobserved. And, even if they would manage that (although I don't see how - the skiers had a rotational watch) , the skiers had with them ice axes and knives - which were not taken from the tent, therefore not used...
--- Quote --- 2) On the contrary, the ex-zeks are then in principle free men. They are well fed and can benefit from normal medical care. In reality there are a large number of special cases depending on the circumstances...depending on the nationality of origin ,
( Chechens, Ingushs, Crimean Tatars, Poles, Czechoslovakians, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Ukrainians, Koreans, Germans, Bulgarians, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Finns..etc.)
We can simply remember that the possibilities of movement of the ex-zeks were not so much different from those of many ordinary Soviet citizens.
••• I understand that was one of the first places...
---> I read that the Mansi were first suspected, but I couldn't find any information on the anti-communists who were sojourning in the Vizhay region...
--- End quote ---
So, if I understand it correctly, you consider the motive for the attack to have been a political one, and the attackers - several humans , correct ?
Jean Daniel Reuss:
--- Quote from: alecsandros on May 28, 2020, 01:34:57 AM ---.........................................
I'm not sure the attack with wooden clubs could have produced the multiple broken ribs found on two of the members of Dyatlov group. Even with multiple blows, it's hard to produce such extreme damage...
.............................
ALso, as the tent was emplaced on the exposed mountain slope, there was theoretically little chance for the attackers to approach unobserved. And, even if they would manage that (although I don't see how - the skiers had a rotational watch) , the skiers had with them ice axes and knives - which were not taken from the tent, therefore not used...
.............................................
So, if I understand it correctly, you consider the motive for the attack to have been a political one, and the attackers - several humans , correct ?
--- End quote ---
••• Even with multiple blows, it's hard to produce such extreme damage...
---> I do not understand this argument.
The translational and rotational energy that can be imparted to a two-handed mace is important because in the striking movement several larger muscles of the human body are put into action simultaneously.
The damage is not at all extreme.
The skull boxes are not crushed (destroyed), they are just cracked.
There are broken ribs. But ribs are relatively thin bones and not as strong as a femur.
••• little chance for the attackers to approach unobserved.
---> No! The attackers could hope to get very near to the tent undetected. The darkness was complete. It was windy, the tent canvas was shaking and making noise, powdery snow was flying in the air limiting visibility. In fact, the hikers stayed inside the tent to keep from getting cold.
••• the skiers had with them ice axes ..... therefore not used...
--->The hikers had a single ice axe (there was not so much ice or glacier - only snow - in the Urals mountains, but an ice axe could be useful...).
I think the ice axe was used by the hikers to secure the tent.
The wooden handle was completely embedded in the snow along its entire length (about 1 meter, I guess).
Indeed, this ice axe could have been a very effective and terrible weapon.
According to my reconstruction of the fatal DPI altercation (which I call "My hypothesis N°2"):
a) The hikers were forced to flee quickly. Perhaps they didn't have time to locate and then release the ice axe to retrieve it, which would have taken about ten seconds. More likely at the beginning of the attack, the hikers had not even thought of retrieving the ice axe, and afterwards it was too late.
b) The attackers did not see the ice axe.
••• ...............and knives - which were not taken from the tent, therefore not used...
---> Folding pocket knive were useless
a) The knives were small folding pocket knives. They were neither daggers nor non-folding knives like those currently used by campers.
b) Fighting or defending yourself with a folding knife is very difficult and requires a long special training (and the hikers clearly had not had this kind of training).
c) I know that a small knife is enough to silently slit a sentinel's throat. But you have to be able to attack by surprise, silently and from behind. It is rather an asymmetrical war process. For example I remember an allusion to this in a song of the French rebels in 1943.
Ahoy, partisans, workers and peasants, it's the alarm.
Tonight the enemy will know the price of blood and tears.
....................
Take out of the straw the rifles, the machine-guns, the grenades.
Ahoy, killers with bullets and knives, kill quickly!
••• So, if I understand it correctly, you consider the motive for the attack to have been a political one, and the attackers - several humans , correct ?
---> Correct
a) Yes ! The attackers were "several humans". I would very much like to know the number of attackers. However, due to various considerations, it seems likely to me that there were only 3 (three) attackers.
b) I am not able to properly explain the motives of the attackers but I feel that they were strong and numerous. There are certainly elements of retaliation, military honor, psychological wars between enemies nations, counter-propaganda, example to keep alive a spirit of resistance to oppression.....
Some more by going to read :
Dyatlov Pass Forum > Theories Discussion > Murdered > Resistance goup maybe?
Vietnamka March 20, 2019, 06:21:10 PM Reply #26
................
You never been a prisioner contained for 25 years for good understanding motives, logic and possibility. Even about prisioner's skills (a lot of them passed through the 2WW) you don't know too......................
Nordlander March 27, 2019, 08:41:08 PM Reply #29
............................................
Still, many of the "settlers" living in the area had been former inmates of gulags who remained there after the institutions were closed and they were freed. I think the loggers fall into this category--hence the comments in the diary about their roughness. There were also people in internal exile--many Jewish people, some ethnic Germans like the forestry guy--to keep them from away from the European part of Russia to prevent them from defecting. So a lot of area residents would have been exposed to the barbaric conditions in the gulags and to the forms of violence practiced there. That is one of the things that makes it hard to determine who the attackers may have been: many different groups would have the same "tool kit" because of Stalin's practice of mass incarceration, where political dissidents would be thrown in with common criminals and psychopaths.
alecsandros:
--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on May 28, 2020, 10:13:05 AM --- ••• Even with multiple blows, it's hard to produce such extreme damage...
---> I do not understand this argument.
The translational and rotational energy that can be imparted to a two-handed mace is important because in the striking movement several larger muscles of the human body are put into action simultaneously.
The damage is not at all extreme.
The skull boxes are not crushed (destroyed), they are just cracked.
There are broken ribs. But ribs are relatively thin bones and not as strong as a femur.
--- End quote ---
The autopsies seem to indicate that the damage was done in a single event (or possibly two). Multiple hits would produce cracks on different points, not a pattern (such as coming from a single hit).
Also, it is human nature to protect the head and torso by raising one's arms. Raise a newspaper against someone (rolled into a stick). What will they do instinctively ? Put their arms in front of them... To protect themselves.
And that's another problem for the multiple hits theory - there are no hits recorded on the arms of anybody. Not even a bruise.
--- Quote --- ••• little chance for the attackers to approach unobserved.
---> No! The attackers could hope to get very near to the tent undetected. The darkness was complete. It was windy, the tent canvas was shaking and making noise, powdery snow was flying in the air limiting visibility. In fact, the hikers stayed inside the tent to keep from getting cold.
--- End quote ---
I think Zorotalyov and Thibeaux-Brignolle were better dressed then the others , because they had to keep watch. After all, camping on the exposed slope is a bit strange. Why do it ?
Perhaps one reason was to be able to keep surveillance all around , without some attackers sneaking in from behind some trees. In this line of thoughts, there are also two strange cuts in the tent , that seem to be observational slits (at least that's what some think).
Thus , with half-moon and partly cloudy sky , I think there was some light and some visibility. Remember that YuriD tried to climb the cedar to look for something (probably). Why would he do that if there was zero or little visibility ?
Also, if by some chance there was zero visibility, the attackers would have no way of finding them either.
--- Quote --- ••• the skiers had with them ice axes ..... therefore not used...
--->The hikers had a single ice axe (there was not so much ice or glacier - only snow - in the Urals mountains, but an ice axe could be useful...).
--- End quote ---
According to https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-11-20?rbid=17743
there were 3 axes - 2 large and 1 small, found by the investigation on the scene of the tent.
--- Quote --- a) Yes ! The attackers were "several humans". I would very much like to know the number of attackers. However, due to various considerations, it seems likely to me that there were only 3 (three) attackers.
b) I am not able to properly explain the motives of the attackers but I feel that they were strong and numerous. There are certainly elements of retaliation, military honor, psychological wars between enemies nations, counter-propaganda, example to keep alive a spirit of resistance to oppression.....
--- End quote ---
I understand, but I have reasons to consider that this theory does not fully apply to the Dyatlov Mystery...
Jean Daniel Reuss:
--- Quote from: RidgeWatcher on May 27, 2020, 02:49:17 PM --- ..................vHow I would love to read about any investigations that took place in either village. The ex-Zeks were free but not autonomous in 1959. ................
...............that feeds them, keeps them warm and happy. Not to mention the luxuries in life being difficult to acquire in that place and time.
...............................
There was a new command in Vizhay, as evidenced by the group being taken to the inadequate hotel. Zina says they were "taken" to the inferior hotel unlike two years earlier when they stayed the night in the club house. Something was different, something was amiss. The Dyatlov hikers were intentionally sequestered on this present tour.
I have always wanted to know what Yuri Yudin saw on his way back to Sverdlovsk by himself, he was probably in a lot of pain but did he see something significant that he thought was just ordinary?
............... It is also possible that the ex-Zeks came from Vizhay and hid at Settlement 41. To do this they would have to be hidden by people in Settlement 41. It would be much harder to hide at the dilapidated buildings at North 2, especially since Yuri Yudin and other Dyatlov hikers were searching for rocks and minerals for several hours to take back home.
Did they become targets after hearing revolutionary songs and conversation?
Were the occupants of Vizhay offended by the Dyatlov hikers pro-communist talk? Lyudmila was the most fervent in speech and ideology, did this cause her much worse injuries? The prison cloth found on Lyudmila?
As far as we know nothing was taken from the Dyatlov hikers...does this mean the attack was of a more personal nature and not a robbery?
The Dyatlov hikers, genuinely, seemed to have a much better time while resting at Settlement 41,
However, all things considered, if ex-Zeks came from Vizhay and wanted revenge on the Dyatlov hikers, what would the occupants of Settlement 41 loose (also in the future) if they didn't abide or aid the Vizhay ex-Zeks?
Photograph 17: doesn't have the outline to be Mansi or Khanty while out hunting. Maybe the clothing outline while they are outside their dwellings but not far away hunting. I don't see skins or clothing adornment on the man in photograph 17.
More like an ex-Zek acting as a lookout with a peek-a-boo movement and stance.
If the Dyatlov hikers were being followed and they didn't make Dyatlov Pass the first try then the stalker/followers, probably, were not expecting to see them again coming back down the southern side of Dyatlov Pass. The stalkers would have to hide, much the same way as the photograph indicated.
I agree with Jean Daniel Reuss. There was no time to play or joke around on their last morning/day hike up towards Dyatlov Pass.
The form, stance and gesturing of the figure in photograph 17 is not play, it is significant in impending collision.
--- End quote ---
According to my hypothesis N°2 (cf: Tumanov, "hikers took part in a fight") which gives an answer of all (let's say almost all because there is a lot of data to read) the informations that have been compiled by Teddy on the Dyatlovpass.com website, it is some ex-zeks who attacked the hikers in the night of February 1st to 2nd 1959.
In 1959, as a consequence of the decisions of Beria and Khrushchev since 1953, there were still ex-zeks (of unknown nationalities) in the vicinity of Vizhay.
The majority of these ex-zeks were peaceful. A few people kindly mocked the hikers by providing them with wet wood to make their fire in Vizhay ("...but the fire is hard to get started, the wood is wet and the whole ordeal takes us a lot of time."). it is clear that it is not very harmful).
But it is difficult to imagine the mentality of a human being who has been mistreated and humiliated for years in a Gulag camp.
and whose entire family was tortured and killed by the NKVD on the orders of Joseph Stalin...
Eduard Tumanov : "...Most likely, the group came into conflict with someone in the area of the pass..."
The so-called yeti is a clumsy attacker (clumsy because he alarmed the hikers) and photo # 17 (Thibo) is an important photographic clue that is often neglected by commentators.
The DPI turned out to be a ridiculous failure on the part of the KGB, which was fooled into failing to protect the hikers, which was one of its missions.
I plan to present my arguments and to continue this discussion on the appropriate topic, that is cleary on the following topic:
Dyatlov Pass Forum > Theories Discussion > Altercation on the pass > Altercation on the pass
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.0
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
An additional note suggesting that the attackers may have been near the Dyatlov Pass.
1) •••
The route planned for the hikers was known to all who wanted to know it.
The itinerary had been approved by the "route commission at the Sverdlovsk city committee on physical culture and sport",
including Korolev, Novikova, Maslennikov, Bogomolov.
The itinerary (approved to be a category III ski trip) was: city of Vizhay - 2nd Northern - Mt. Otorten ...
(Note the absence of a stop at settlement 41 !
Dubinina: "In general, we had to go to 2nd North, but it was getting dark and we decided to stop at the 41st. At 4.30 we were met..."
The hikers had spoken freely at Vizhay and at Settlement 41. The hikers also had asked the opinion of the ranger Rempel Ivan Dmitrievich
But to catch the hikers it was obviously also necessary to find the trace in the snow that had been left by the 9 skiers.
2) •••
The ex-zeks (like some of the loggers of settlement 41) worked and moved around in the forest (also called taiga at this latitude, if I am not mistaken...).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silviculture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_management
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forestry
3) •••
Nobody lived permanently in North 2, but the place was known and one could certainly bivouac in some others ruined houses.
Yuri Yudin:
" We spent the night in the hut of the 2nd Northern settlement. There so much - many houses, warehouses, premises, forgotten old vehicles, machine tools. Everything was abandoned since 1952................."
SteveCalley February 25, 2018, 10:15:18 PM
Second Severniye (=North 2, I don't understand everything, 2000 houses seems to be a mistake, it's rather 20)
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=109.0
"....24 km past 41st Quarter, past Vizhay. I'm not sure what to make of this deserted place, but certainly I mistrust the official explanation. This geological townsite far out of Ivdel had 2000 houses? What a city! If there were five to a house, that's ten thousand residents! Ivdel's the same size. And all geologists? Something's amiss.
A Siberian town suddenly abandoned a few years ago, falling down, perhaps after six years. What happened around 1953?
Stalin died, Beria soon after. Joy to Rodina to lose those devils! The gulags were cleared of many prisoners. Was this Ivdel North, perhaps? What do you think? ...."
4) •••
On the day of January 31, 1959, the pursuers may not have started from North 2, but from a shelter even closer to the tent.
Here's an example from Google Earth in 2020. There were probably similar shanties in 1959.
This is not a house to live in for a long time, it is only a shelter, a refuge that allows you to sleep quietly several nights.
Users who hunt animals or work in the forest can leave here food and blankets
The current position (2020) is :
61° 35' 54.6 (N) & 59° 41' 29.3 (E)
It is located as the bird flies, 22 km from the Dyatlov Pass and 17 km from North 2.
RidgeWatcher:
Yuri Yudin I'm not sure what to make of this deserted place, but certainly I mistrust the official explanation. This geological townsite far out of Ivdel had 2000 houses?
Possibly Uranium or yellow cake Uranium, that would require geologists? Not 2000 of them.
The wood from 2nd north could have been harvested for firewood from surrounding areas and possibly the Mansi. Over several decades it would be much easier to pilfer(steal) board-cut firewood than harvest it from the forest. I have heard of entire cabins disappearing over the winter in Alaska.
If the ex-Zeks killed the Dyatlov ski tourists then I would think they would have had to follow the tourist ski tracks or the Mansi hunting ski tracks from the east of Dyatlov Pass.
Monsiuer Reuss, Do you know if any ex-Zeks were ever interviewed by the investigators in connection with the deaths?
The beatings and murder feel so personal. Deeply personal. I would have to commit to the opinion that there was interaction and communication prior to the attacks. Which means Vizhay, 42 Settlement or 2nd Northern. I would have to go with the Settlement 42, that is my gut feeling. Unless there were just some wild men ex-Zeks out there living and hunting from a shack, which is a possibility. That would be hard to hide out on the snow because even the Mansi would be aware of them and most likely would have hunting, trapping and territory issues with the ex-Zeks.
Something was off in Settlement 42, the Dyatlov ski tourists were being choreographed while there. Lyuda was having a foreboding or picking up on some vibe. Possibly during the movie they watched in the clubhouse, where they had slept two years earlier.
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