Theories Discussion > Murdered
Army Tactician - Definitely Ambush, potential events
Per Inge Oestmoen:
--- Quote from: armyeng on March 18, 2021, 06:24:19 AM ---Army tactician here, this screams of classic ambush tactics used throughout most armies and offers the highest probability theory because this is how small armed tactics play out. The boiled down synopsis: [...]
--- End quote ---
Thank you for your realistic assessment.
However, I would not rule out a centrally planned governmental action. We know that the deaths of the nine students was known in Moscow on February 6, which was long before anyone in Sverdlovsk or Ivdel had any reason to suspect that something had happened to the Dyatlov group. There was a written report which was already made on February 6. Such a report with a preparation for a search is unlikely to have been written immediately after the event had become known.
Thus it would seem that Moscow knew about the fate of the students some days before the sixth of February, which, I reiterate, was long before anyone in the Sverdlovsk area could suspect anything. How did they know in Moscow that the nine were dead at that early date, unless the mission was planned and decided upon in Moscow?
Manti:
How do we know Moscow knew about the deaths on Feb 6? Is there a document that corroborates this?
Jean Daniel Reuss:
Part 1 : First, here are 3 preliminary warnings.
1 ==> sararapuk is right: There is no juridically valid absolute certainty about the DPI.
In other words, the explanation for the death of the 9 hikers is a problem that admits of several solutions.
This was also the idea of Vladimir Askinadzi, who has a more humorous view
In the meantime, all we have left to do is to entertain ourselves intellectually with a game of investigation.
2 ==> Alas! I was not able to force Satan to stay behind me since I now have my theory. I hope that Loose}{Cannon will forgive me and tolerate me !!!
(All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan!!!)
I was inspired by the remarks and arguments of the authors called : supporters of the criminal version or homicide theory who are mainly (chronological order):
Per Inge Oestmoen (since March 12, 2018) Vladimir Askinadzi ("I don't know who or why were they murdered.")- Eduard Tumanov - Liyla79 - hoosiergose - NightLurker - armyeng...
And now I am adapting Aleks Kandr's (Алекс К on https://taina.li/forum) very complete exposition by eliminating from his text the (fortunately few and useless) silly references to astrology.
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=1002.0
3 ==> I do not know yet what WAB's theory is exactly, but what he wrote for him can also apply to me:
"You need a very large amount of text to explain your position. Especially considering the fact that many positions need to be explained in great detail, because they are not understood...
..............
I do not have the energy, time or ability to do that...
..............
I am not a writer, I am a researcher, I want the physical result of what happened, not the number of letters on a paper that will be read without understanding the meaning of what's written there..."
Part 2 :The 8 paragraphs of the armyeng sequence.
--- Quote from: armyeng on March 18, 2021, 06:24:19 AM ---.........this is how small armed tactics play out..........................
Likely sequence:
1.) ...
2.) Hikers pitched tent.....
3.)....
4.)....
5.)....
6. ....
7.)....
8.) Attackers exited ..................
--- End quote ---
I almost agree. I will make some further refinements and significant differences in these 8 paragraphs of the likely sequence written by armyeng at a later date.
In the meantime, in order to fix ideas, here are some broad outlines of my explanatory hypothesis, which is very similar to Aleks Kandr's theory.
No staging - No forgery or false documents - Essential advantage for the attackers of total surprise and initiative - No firearms, only big sticks wrapped in rags to hit hard and silently...................
The instigators and commanders (clients) were one or several Stalinist officers of the NKVD, having high ranks, who feared, with great reason (particularly during the XXI° congress of the CPSU), the de-Stalinization and thus the purge of the former NKVD leaders by the KGB.
In other words, these Ivdellag officers did not want to be arrested and sentenced to death as they had been since Stalin's death:
Bogdan Kobulov, Lavrenti Beria, Mikhail Ryumin, Viktor Abakumov, Vsevolod Merkulov, Amaiak Kobulov, Boris Rodos....... and many other lesser known ones.
The mercenaries recruited for the surprise attack on the evening of February 1, 1959 were 3 former Gulag camp guards who were specialized in the pursuit and extermination of the very few Zeks who seldom escaped from the camps.
The 3 mercenaries attacking had also for mission not to make any staging in the zone of the fights (slope of the Kholat Syakhl, Cedar, Den) so that the Khrushchevian governors in the Kremlin understand immediately that it was about a terrorist attack and so to show the power of the opposition to the Khrushchev's Thaw.
Part 3 : Something that could be called paragraph 9 of armyeng and Per Inge Oestmoen.
9.) Evgeniy Buyanov = "investigator Korotaev was secretly asked to conduct an unofficial investigation before the official one was launched. (This date of launch is February 6, 1959).
--- Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on May 30, 2021, 12:10:06 PM --- Reply #15
............................................
... We know that the deaths of the nine students was known in Moscow on February 6, which was long before anyone in Sverdlovsk or Ivdel had any reason to suspect that something had happened to the Dyatlov group. There was a written report which was already made on February 6. Such a report with a preparation for a search is unlikely to have been written immediately after the event had become known.
Thus it would seem that Moscow knew about the fate of the students some days before the sixth of February, which, I reiterate, was long before anyone in the Sverdlovsk area could suspect anything. How did they know in Moscow that the nine were dead at that early date [?], unless the mission was planned and decided upon in Moscow?
--- End quote ---
My hypothesis to explain this date of February 6 is very simple:
There were 3 mercenary killers, who followed the tracks of the hikers from North-2, and who attacked the tent on the evening of February 1, 1959 (let's say for simplicity at 8 PM), at the place where the tent was found (by the rescuers) on february 26 .
As Eduard Tumanov says the "hikers took part in a fight... with outsiders.........."
This "Altercation on the pass" was in reality a succession of fierce hand-to-hand fights (but without firearms) which ended at 6 AM on February 2 with the death (plus some mutilations) of the 9 hikers and thus with the total victory of the 3 attacking killers.
After having rested and after having eaten the provisions (of the hikers) in the tent, the 3 attackers amused themselves (perhaps without any rational motive or to replace their lost soft leg bands) by cutting the tent canvas with the knife which had been used to remove the 4 eyes and the tongue.
.........
By following (in the opposite direction of the outward journey) the deep tracks from the tent to North-2 the 3 attackers were able to reach North-2 on February 2nd around 7 PM.
............
Good night's rest (February 2-3) at North-2 for the 3 very tired attackers...
.............
The next morning February 3, a motor vehicle with driver (speed on the snowy track=30 km/h) brought back the 3 attackers, to Vizhay, before noon (February 3).
................
But the 3 attackers were known to be, as it was said, unsavory brutal characters. The marks and bruises on their faces (Kolgomorove, Slobodin, Dyatlov...had hit hard while trying to defend themselves on the slope) looked suspicious.
...........
The 3 attackers were quickly reported to the authorities. (February 3 or 4).
..................
On the morning of February 4 at least one of the 3 attackers was arrested by the KGB.
................
After 2 days of intensive interrogations, that is to say on the evening of February 5, 2021, the suspect(s) had spoken. (because when it is necessary the KGB had effective and fast means to make the suspects speak).
Thus, from February 6, the KGB knew everything they wanted to know about the murders of the 9 hikers.
From then on it was completely useless to go and check on the spot, on the slopes of Kholat Syakhl. It was enough to wait peacefully for the continuation of the events: the discovery of the tent on February 26 (or 24?).
The KGB agents prefer to be more efficient by staying inside their comfortable and well heated offices, close to their phones, folders and papers.........
Per Inge Oestmoen:
--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 10, 2021, 04:59:29 AM ---The KGB agents prefer to be more efficient by staying inside their comfortable and well heated offices, close to their phones, folders and papers.........
--- End quote ---
Pardon me for saying so, but if you reason generally well you are nevertheless mistaken here.
The KGB office workers were highly intelligent office workers. However, KGB was much more than their office workers.
The KGB special forces operators were probably the most select, intelligent, skilled and merciless killers and the most competent close combat specialists in all of human history. They were perfectly capable of orchestrating "accidents," "natural deaths" or "suicides" in numerous ways - and they did. It was their specialty.
Jean Daniel Reuss:
--- Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on October 19, 2021, 07:57:54 AM --- Reply #18
.......................
The KGB office workers were highly intelligent office workers. However, KGB was much more than their office workers.
The KGB special forces operators were probably the most select, intelligent, skilled and merciless killers and the most competent close combat specialists in all of human history. They were perfectly capable of orchestrating "accidents," "natural deaths" or "suicides" in numerous ways - and they did. It was their specialty.
--- End quote ---
I completely agree with this statement.
The KGB was created by Khrushchev on March 13, 1954, so one year after the death of Stalin, to replace the NKVD.
In 1959 it is a kind of apogee of the regime of Khrushchev. The KGB is at the disposal of Khrushchev to make triumph his politics of de-Stalinization.
The KGB was an official agency of a great country whose communist ideology hoped to become a model for all mankind.
The KGB was not a bunch of bloodthirsty gangsters working in a disorderly and anarchic way
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KGB
Let's not forget that during Khrushchev's thaw (1953-1964) there were fewer arbitrary condemnations and massive (and badly controlled) releases of Zeks from Gulag camps.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag
Apart from espionage, one of the many missions of the KGB was to fight external enemies and internal opponents by all means and also to protect the dignitaries of the regime and the good Soviet citizens.
---> highly intelligent
It was much simpler to arrest the hikers on their return or before they left, then charge them and sentence them to death for treason or other pretexts.
Communist regimes are also known for more perverse methods. After undergoing a kind of brainwashing, the characters to be eliminated accused themselves of the worst imaginary crimes.
This is the theme of the novel "Darkness at Noon" by the British novelist Arthur Koestler.
°°°°°°°°°
What we know about the DPI does not match the KGB's killing methods.
---> perfectly capable of orchestrating
If the death of the hikers was staged to look like a natural accident, then it was poorly staged.
Indeed, more than 60 years later, there is no certainty and the discussions continue all over the world.
It would have been easy to stage a death to make the illusion of a natural death obvious enough so that any other suspicion would be ridiculous.
For example, find the hikers all drowned, trapped under the broken ice of a river. Or all freezing to death, crammed into the location of the completely destroyed tent.
If this is the way of terrorism, it is to show or make clear that opponents or traitors are always caught and punished.
Then there should be material and visible evidence of a voluntary execution. For example, traces of rifle bullets.
On the contrary, to make the bodies disappear entirely would have left a disturbing mystery and allowed a lot of accusatory suppositions
°°°°°°°°°
What I am absolutely convinced of (this is perhaps the central point of the discussion on the responsibility of the KGB) is that even if the hikers had seen a top secret military test, they could not have deduced from it considerable and sensitive information obliging to be silenced by killing them on the field.
The 8 students or former students of UPI seem to have been exemplary Soviet citizens.
Zolotaryov was a decorated veteran of the Great Patriotic War, and nothing serious could be blamed on him, even though he subsequently led a somewhat disordered independent life.
It is also possible that Zolotaryov had various relations with the KGB, in the kind of occasional informant.
It would be surprising if these nine people, for whom nothing could be reproached politically, at least on the surface, could represent a sufficiently important danger to require their immediate elimination.
If they are guilty of something that requires death, it is necessary first to make sure that there are no possible accomplices and also to find out how these 9 apparently blameless people were influenced in a harmful way (indispensable investigations among relations, in families, at the UPI ... etc.)
For an important and official service like the KGB, to kill the 9 hikers without interrogating them for months, with adequate means, would have been a huge mistake.
Because the dead do not speak and will never speak again.
As an illustration, Georg Elser, the author of the failed attempt to kill Hitler, on November 8, 1939, in Munich, was carefully kept alive for long interrogations.
Hitler issued an order to Heydrich: 'I would like to know what kind of man this Elser is. We must be able to classify him somehow. Report back to me on this. And furthermore, use all means to get this criminal to talk. Have him hypnotized, give him drugs; make use of everything of this nature our scientists have tried. I want to know who the instigators are. I want to know who is behind this.'
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