Reply #5
The comment "Jean Daniel Reuss" made above is inappropriate: there is no impossibility whatsoever to discuss the involvement of Ivan Prodanov in the tragedy on this forum.
His attempt to silence the present theory using unscrupulous means could be imputed to envy but it has no ground. The discussion is open and "Jean Daniel Reus"s can't do anything about it.
Reply #7Ah! .....personal message.............
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I wrote to Reuss a kind personal message..................
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Reply #9
Reuss you pretend to give lessons of morals and "politeness", but you didn’t have the courtesy to send me a personal message before to post your Reply #4, courtesy which would have given you the ability to learn that this reply of you was off topic and useless....
Reply #9
.......... You know since August 23 when I informed you by personal message, and since September 13 by my public Reply #5 that your Reply #4 was off topic...........
Reply #9Dyatlov Pass Forum --> Factual Information --> Materials Modern --> Publications / Media --> CrimsonPod Feb 1, 2022
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And why don’t you copy/past your "politeness" alarms on the thread CrimsonPod also incriminating Prodanov.................
Reply #9
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And why don’t you copy/past your "politeness" alarms ... on the thread Zolotaryov’s meltdown? ....
Reply #9
..............I look forward to read your denunciations…
But no, you don’t care at all, about any of them:
you just want to troll the present thread, and you succeeded as there are now more off topic replies than replies discussing the original topic of the thread. Congratulations, you got what you wanted.
About helicopters
In the memoirs of Boris Slobtsov there is a story about the capture of fugitive prisoners, which gave rise to a number of versions associated with gulag convicts, aka zeks. But there really was an escape! In the State Archives, they managed to find a book of escape registration for 1959, from which it follows that on February 19, a group of three prisoners escaped immediately after Gordo called Vizhay. They will only be caught on February 21, when Gordo and Blinov were already there. Does this have something to do with why the investigation doesn't ask them what exactly happened on the spot at that period?
https://dyatlovpass.com/hakimov
Here we don't care about the date of Feb. 21 but about the one of Feb. 01.
And there:
- BORDYUGOV Albert Aleksandrovich (Бордюгов Альберт Александрович), the Commander of helicopter unit of the 123rd air squadron (Ivdel); flew the Po-2 aircraft and the Mi-1 and Mi-4 helicopters. In February 1959, he took part in the search for geologists of the Northern prospecting party №7 of the Bazhenov expedition in the area of the settlement of Vershina.
- TOLSTOV Andrey Andreevich (Толстов Андрей Андреевич) a pilot of MI-1, air squadron 123 - Ivdel. In February 1959, he took part in the search for geologists of the Northern prospecting party №7 of the Bazhenov expedition in the area of the village of Vershina.
- USTYUZHANIN V. (Устюжанин В.) Commander of the An-2 squadron of the 123rd air squadron - Ivdel. Unconfirmed reports suggest: in February 1959 he took part in the search for geologists of the Northern prospecting party №7 of the Bazhenov expedition in the area of the village of Vershina. In the local newspaper he was mentioned as V. Ustinov by mistake.
This rescue operation in Vershina took place at mid-February, but what is written in the flight logs of 123 Air Squadron around Feb. 01? Did they have missions? How many? When? What were the missions? Who was piloting? Who were the passengers?
And what was the status of Gladyrev before Mar. 13, 1959?
- GLADYREV Pyotr Vasilyevich (Гладырев Петр Васильевич) (1922-1960) When in 1958 first helicopters entered squadron service, he did transition training for flying a helicopter and on March 13, 1959 he was confirmed as a plane commander of MI-4 helicopter.
That is to say on Feb. 01, 1959, Gladyrev was able to pilot a MI-4 helicopter but he was not registered as an official MI-4 pilot, is that correct?
Gladyrev was only officially confirmed as MI-4 pilot on March 13, 1959, that very same day when Prodanov was appointed head of operational search? bang1
Gladyrev who was later "killed along with the crew (6 people were killed in total) in the MI-4 accident in the Ivdel region on July 19, 1960", and accident decimating the 123 Air Squadron?
And why did V.V. Potyazhenko lie to Maria Piskareva: "V.V. said that in May he did not refuse to carry bodies to Sverdlovsk, since only there was a requirement to put them in metal containers"?
It is well established from the radiograms of Ortyukov and the replies of Prodanov that the pilots did refuse to carry the bodies. Why try to undermine the submission to Prodanov's authority? Potyazhenko's correct answer would have been: "we refused to carry bodies to Sverdlovsk but we were obeying Prodanov's order" not we "did not refuse to carry bodies".
What is the role of the helicopter pilots? Why do we have records of all type of activity at any dates but only silence about Feb. 01?
We know what the pilots were doing in the 1940s and the 1970s but not the slightest information about Jan. 30 - Feb. 02, 1959?
Here is a very interesting photo about life in the Northern Urals:
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Northern-Geological-Expedition-164.jpg)
We can see on the same photo a ZIL-157 6x6 truck on the left, a MI-8 helicopter, a tracked vehicle and sledges, the "sledges on iron pipes" that Dryahlyh was mentioning, at the right. Only Mansi reindeers are missing, but we have there all kinds of Russian means of transport used in the Northern regions. A glimpse into everyday life in the Urals.
The MI-4 was not a creation of Soviet engineers but a copy of the American Sikorsky H-19 designed in 1949.
The MI-4 was operational and reliable since 1953. And it was widely used in Soviet Union untill 1988. There are many photos of MI-4 and other helicopters on dyatlovpass.com. See at "Search photos" and "Northern geological expedition".
MI-4 picking up rescuers at Dyatlov Pass:
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/3S-57.jpg)
Guns and helicopters are the symbol of the lifestyle in the Northern Urals.
The MI-4 could carry 14 fully equipped troops and it determines the maximum size of the hunt party who went after the hikers: no more than 14 henchmen.
ENUMERATIVE INDUCTIONS
Enumerative inductions do not allow to conclude to universal assumptions like with the laws of physics, but in issues that are limited to the particular (singular is about one, particular is about more than one but not all, universal is about all), they can produce satisfying conclusions. For example, from the observation of a single drug deal at the corner of a street, you can't conclude anything. But if you observe three or four drug deals at the same corner of the same street, you can conclude to drug trafficking. And these conclusions will be legit and are used everyday in our societies.
So here are some enumerations which could allow us to drive conclusions...
- Repetitive pattern of 3 collisions of Ivan Prodanov and Alexander Kolevatov in TAVDA, IVDEL and KHOLYAT SYAKHL:(https://i.ibb.co/FxTG6FW/life-lines-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YRsv2xW)
- Summarization of the specific defensive injuries of the 3 hikers who died on the slope:(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-Slobodin-Kolmogorova-hand-injuries-ru.png)
- Grouping of bone fractures in the area of vital organs:(https://i.ibb.co/4gG1qpw/30-bone-fractures.png) (https://ibb.co/3YqR3c5)
- Grouping of head wounds in the area of temporalis muscles and temporal bone:(https://i.ibb.co/DKTnyCQ/7-head-wounds.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Hg3Qszq)
- Parallel positions of 5 corpses + 1 perpendicular:
3 occasions where Prodanov and Kolevatov were at the same place at the same time means they have a common history. 20 metacarpophalangeal joints injuries means there was a fight with opponents. 30 bone fractures in the area of vital organs and 7 head wounds in the temporal area means they were aimed at with the intention to kill. 5 corpses laid in parallels means they have been manipulated. These conclusions don't have any value in the field of the universal and laws of physics, but in the field of the particular and human behavior, which is the reign of contingency, they have a high value, not an absolute value but a high value. A much higher value than for example "they found and entered a snow cave" which is based on nothing, and here absolutely nothing.
- Skull and face, sternum and ribs fractures only represent 12.58% of the 178 M fractures, but at Dyatlov's Pass they represent 90% of the fractures.
- Arm, hand, pelvis, hip, leg and foot fractures represent 71.87% of the 178 M fractures, but at Dyatlov's Pass they represent 0% of the fractures.
Unfortunately, the study mixes "clavicle, scapula, or humerus" fractures in a same category. Zolotaryov had a very rare scapula fracture and none of the 18 humerus was broken. In the USA for example, scapula fracture represent approximately 0.4-1% (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK537312/), humerus fracture 8% (https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/825488-overview) and clavicle fracture about 3.8% of all fractures. If we could have the detail of the "clavicle, scapula, or humerus" category :
- Skull and face, clavicle, scapula, sternum and ribs fractures represent 16.78-17.38% of all fractures, but at Dyatlov's Pass they represent 100% of the fractures.
- Arm (humerus included), hand, pelvis, hip, leg and foot fractures represent 79.87% of all fractures, but at Dyatlov's Pass they represent 0% of the fractures.
We expect 17% in the blue circle and get 100%, we expect 80% elsewhere and get 0%... (forgetting the detail of vertebras).
The pattern of the fractures tells us it was not accidental, the hikers were attacked and the attackers aimed at vital organs (brain, heart, lungs). None of the 9 hikers suffered from any fracture that was not close to vital organs: in all, the hikers had 1,854 bones that could be fractured, but their 30 bone fractures (3 fractures of skull, 3 of scapula, 24 of rib) were all centimeters close to vital organs.
And if considering all types of head wounds, there is also a grouping in the temporal area:(https://i.ibb.co/DKTnyCQ/7-head-wounds.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Hg3Qszq)
I do however believe that the perpetrators were greater forces in the Soviet Union. In my opinion it is likely that the students were killed by order from the highest state authorities, as a preventive killing because the students had witnessed something that made them a threat to state security.
Yes, it's our difference: you think the hikers were killed by a direct order from the highest authorities; I think the hikers were killed by local authorities who were backed afterwards by the highest authorities because local and highest authorities shared a commun interest. You think state security was threatened by the hikers, I think private interests were threatened by the hikers.
There could be here the most sensitive issue: the confusion of state security and private interest, and a confusion in a form and at a scale beyond imagination.
If we read carefully the nine autopsy reports, there is an obvious evidence that the death were not accidental:
MEDICAL-FORENSIC EXAMINATION OF THE BODY OF CITIZEN
DOROSHENKO Yuri Alekseevich, 21 years old.
On March 4, 1959 in accordance with decree of the Prosecutor office of Sverdlovsk region of March 3, 1959 by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau Comrade V.A. VOZROZHDENNY and Comrade Y.I. LAPTEV in the presence of the prosecutor of Sverdlovsk region state Counselor in Justice of III class Comrade N.I. KLINOV, criminal prosecutor of regional prosecutor office junior Counselor in Justice Comrade L.N. IVANOV and witnesses S.D. GORDO and K.V. NASKICHEV in the morgue of the central department hospital, PO Box №240 with daylight and sunny weather was performed the autopsy of the body of Y. A. Doroshenko, 21 years old, in order to determine the cause of death and answers to the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances
On January 23, 1959 the independent group of hikers consisting of 10 people went across the ski track Ivdel – Mount Otorten. From the 2nd Northern site the group consisted of 9 people. On February 1, 1959 the group started the climb on the mount Otorten and in the evening they put up a tent at the height of 1079 meters.
In the night of February 2 at the unknown circumstances all 9 people died.
CONCLUSION
According to the examination results of the body belonging to Doroshenko Yuri Nikolayevich, aged 21, and considering the circumstances of the case, we believe that the death occurred as the result of low temperature exposure (freezing), which can be proved by the following evidence: meninges oedema, strong hyperaemia in the internal organs, cardiac cavities full of liquid dark blood, petechiae in the gastric mucosa (known as Wischnewsky spots), an excessively full bladder, along with the third and fourth degree frostbite of fingers and toes.
External examination showed damage, such as multiple abrasions and skin wounds caused by a blunt object that could occur as the result of falling or bruising against stones, ice, and other objects.
The injuries mentioned above occurred while alive, during the agonal state, and after death. The injuries mentioned above can be described as slight injuries without damage to health.
This examination of the body gives reasons to state that the last meal was consumed 6 to 8 hours before death. Alcohol was not found during the tests. The death is violent and accidental.
MEDICAL-FORENSIC EXAMINATION OF THE BODY OF CITIZEN
KRIVONISCHENKO Georgiy Alekseevich, 23 years old.
On March 4, 1959 in accordance with decree of the Prosecutor office of Sverdlovsk region of March 3, 1959 by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev in the presence of the prosecutor of Sverdlovsk region state Counselor in Justice of III class N. I. Klinov, criminal prosecutor of regional prosecutor office junior Counselor in Justice Mr. L.N. Ivanov and witnesses S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev in the morgue of the central department hospital, PO Box No.240 with daylight and sunny weather there was performed the autopsy of the body of G. A. Krivonischenko, 23 years old, in order to determine the cause of death and answers to the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances
On January 23, 1959 the independent group of hikers consisting of 10 people went across the ski track Ivdel – Mount Otorten. From the 2nd Northern site the group consisted of 9 people. On February 1, 1959 the group started the climb on the mount Otorten and in the evening they put up a tent at the height of 1 079 meters.
In the night of February 2 at the unknown circumstances all 9 people died.
CONCLUSION
Based on the data of investigation of the body of Krivonischenko Georgiy Alekseevich, 23 years old, and considering the facts of the case, we think that the death of Krivonischenko was the result of the action of low temperature/freezing. This is evidenced by the swelling of the meninges, the blood-filled internal organs, the overfilling of the pericardium with dark liquid blood, the existence of Wischnewsky spots on the folds of the stomach, the overfilling of the bladder, the frostbite on the fingers and toes and burns of the II-III degree by fire. Observed (written by hand, approximation).
The lesions, grazes and skin wounds found during the external examination could have been the result of a fall or injury on rocks, ice, etc. The above-mentioned injuries were inflicted on Krivonischenko during life, the agonal state, and after death. The data of the investigation of the body of Krivonischenko provide the basis to suggest that he ate only 6-8 hours before the time of death. No presence of alcohol was found during the examination. The death was violent and accidental.
MEDICAL-FORENSIC EXAMINATION OF THE BODY OF CITIZEN
DYATLOV Igor Alekseevich, 23 years old.
On 4 March 1959, in accordance with the decree of the prosecutor’s office of the Sverdlovsk region of 3 March 1959, an autopsy was performed on the body of I. A. Dyatlov, 23 years old, by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev, in the presence of the prosecutor of the Sverdlovsk region Class-III State Counselor of Justice N. I. Klinov, criminal prosecutor of the regional prosecutor’s office Junior Counselor of Justice L. N. Ivanov, and witnesses S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev, in the morgue of the central department hospital, PO Box No. 240, with daylight and sunny weather, in order to determine the cause of death and answer the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances
On 23 January 1959, an independent group of hikers consisting of ten people traveled across the Ivdel–Mount Otorten ski path. Leaving from the second Northern site, the group consisted of nine people. On 1 February 1959, the group started the climb up mount Otorten, and in the evening they put up a tent at a height of 1 079 meters.
Under unknown circumstances, on the night of February 2, all nine people died.
CONCLUSION
Based on the data discovered (added by hand) from the examination of the body of Igor Alekseevich Dyatlov, 23 years old, and considering the circumstances of the case, we think Dyatlov died as the result of hypothermia/freezing signified by the oedema of the meninges, the sharp hyperaemia of the internal organs, the filling of the heart cavities with liquid dark blood, the presence of Wischnewsky spots on the gastric mucosa, the overfilled bladder, and III and IV degree frostbite on the extremities.
The damage discovered (note: the word is handwritten) during the external examination in the form of graze wounds, scratches and skin wounds were caused by a blunt object and may have happened as the result of a fall and bruising by stone, ice, etc.
The above-mentioned damage was caused both during life, as well as in the agonal and post-mortem states. The above-mentioned injuries are light and not damaging to health.
The data of the examination of the body of Dyatlov shows that his last meal was 6-8 hours before death. The investigation discovered no presence of alcohol. The cause of death is by violence/accident.
MEDICAL-FORENSIC EXAMINATION OF THE BODY OF CITIZEN
KOLMOGOROVA Zinaida Alekseevna, 22 years old
On March 4, 1959, in accordance with the decree of the prosecutor’s office of the Sverdlovsk region of March 3, 1959, an autopsy was performed on the body of Kolmogorova Zinaida Alekseevna, 22 years old, by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev, in the presence of the prosecutor of the Sverdlovsk region Class-III State Counselor of Justice N.I. Klinov, criminal prosecutor of the regional prosecutor’s office Junior Counselor of Justice L.N. Ivanov, and witnesses S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev, in the morgue of the central department hospital, PO Box No. 240, with daylight and sunny weather, in order to determine the cause of death and answer the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances
On January 23, 1959, an independent group of hikers, consisting of ten people traveled along the Ivdel – Mount Otorten ski path. Leaving from the second Northern site, the group consisted of nine people. On February 1, 1959, the group started the climb up mount Otorten, and in the evening they put up a tent at a height of 1,079 meters.
Under unknown circumstances, in the night, on February 2, all nine people died.
CONCLUSION
Based on the investigation of the body of Kolmogorova Zinaida Alekseevna, 22 years old, and taking into account the circumstances of the case, we feel that the death of Kolmogorova was the result of cool temperatures/freezing, as evidenced by the swelling of the meninges, the hyperaemia of the internal organs, the dark liquid blood in the heart cavities, the Wischnewsky spots on the gastric mucosa, and the fourth-degree frostbite on the third distal phalanges of the fingers; the injuries found on Kolmogorova’s body in the form of abrasions and skin wounds were caused by a blunt instrument and the result of a fall and injuries on rocks, ice and snow.
The above-mentioned injuries occurred while Kolmogorova was alive, in the agonal state, and posthumously.
The investigation of the body of Komogоrova allows for the basis of theory that she last ate 6-8 hours before the time of death. Alcohol was not detected during the investigation. Kolmogorova’s virginity is still intact. The cause of death was violent and accidental.
MEDICAL-FORENSIC EXAMINATION OF THE BODY OF CITIZEN
SLOBODIN Rustem Vladimirovich, 23 years old
On March 8, 1959, in accordance with the decree of the prosecutor’s office of the Sverdlovsk region of March 7, 1959, with daylight and sunny weather an autopsy was performed on the body of Slobodin R. V., by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev, in the presence of the prosecutor of the Sverdlovsk region Class-III State Counselor of Justice Mr. N.I. Klinov, criminal prosecutor of the regional prosecutor’s office Junior Counselor of Justice L. N. Ivanov, and witnesses S. D. Gordo and K. V. Naskichev, in the morgue of the central department hospital, PO Box №240, in order to determine the cause of death and answer the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances
On January 23, 1959, an independent group of hikers consisting of ten people traveled across the Ivdel–Mount Otorten ski path. Starting from the second Northern site, the group consisted of nine people. On February 1, 1959, the group started the climb up mount Otorten, and in the evening they put up a tent at a height of 1079 meters.
Under unknown circumstances, on the night of February 2, all nine people died.
CONCLUSION
Based on the data of the examination of the body of Slobodin Rustem Vladimirovich, 23 years old, and considering the circumstances of the case, I believe that the death of Slobodin was caused by the action of low temperature/freezing, which is evidenced by the swelling of the meninges, the blood-filled internal organs, the Wischnewsky spots on the gastric mucosa, and the third- and fourth-degree freezing of the fingers.
The fracture of the left frontal lobe bone could have occurred during a fall by Slobodin or the impact of the head on a hard object such as rocks, ice, etc. A blunt object caused the above-mentioned trauma. When this happened it would have caused Slobodin to become stunned and allowed for his rapid freezing. The absence of explicit bleeding under the meninges allows for the assumption that Slobodin’s death came as a result of his freezing.
The injuries found on Slobodin’s body in the form of abrasions, scrapes and graze wounds were caused by a blunt object as the result of a fall or injury on rocks, ice, etc.
The damage was caused during life, as well as in the agonal state and post mortem.
The data of the examination of Slobodin’s body allows for the presumption that his last meal was 6-8 hours before the time of death. The presence of alcohol was not detected during the examination. Taking account these injuries, in the first hour after they happened Slobodin was able to move and crawl. Slobodin’s death was violent and accidental.
Medical-Forensic Examination of a body
On the May 9, 1959 in accordance with decree of the Prosecutor office of Sverdlovsk region of May 7, 1959 by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of the criminal prosecutor of regional prosecutor office junior Counselor in Justice L.N. Ivanov and criminal expert Churkina G.A. in the morgue of the medical unit of the PO Box 240 with daylight and sunny weather there was performed the autopsy of the body of Lyudmila Aleksandrovna DUBININA, 20 years old, in order to determine the cause of death and answers to the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances:
On January 23, 1959 the independent group of hikers consisting of 10 people went across the ski track Ivdel – Mount Otorten. From the 2nd Northern site the group consisted of 9 people. On February 1, 1959 the group started the climb on the mount Otorten and in the evening they put up a tent at the height of 1 079 meters.
In the night of February 2 at the unknown circumstances all 9 people died.
CONCLUSION:
Based on the forensic examination of the body of L. A. Dubinina I think that the death of Dubinina was caused by massive hemorrhage into the right ventricle, multiple bilateral rib fractures, and internal bleeding into the thoracic cavity.
The said damage was probably caused by an impact of great force causing severe closed lethal trauma to the chest of Dubinina. The trauma was caused during life and is the result of high force impact with subsequent fall, throw or bruise to the chest of Dubinina.
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.
The death of Dubinina is through violence.
Medical-Forensic Examination of a body
On the May 9, 1959 in accordance with decree of the Prosecutor office of Sverdlovsk region of May 7, 1959 by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of the criminal prosecutor of regional prosecutor office junior Counselor in Justice L.N. Ivanov and criminal expert Churkina G.A. in the morgue of the medical unit of the PO Box 240 with daylight and sunny weather there was performed the autopsy of the body of Aleksander Alekseevich ZOLOTARYOV, 37 years old, in order to determine the cause of death and answers to the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances:
On January 23, 1959 the independent group of hikers consisting of 10 people went across the ski track Ivdel – Mount Otorten. From the 2nd Northern site the group consisted of 9 people. On February 1, 1959 the group started the climb on the mount Otorten and in the evening they put up a tent at the height of 1 079 meters.
In the night of February 2 at the unknown circumstances all 9 people died.
CONCLUSION:
Based on the examination of the body of Zolotaryov, 37 years old, I think that he died due to multiple fractures of the right ribs with internal hemorrhaging to the pleural cavity while at a low temperature. The above mentioned multiple fractures of Zolotaryov’s ribs with hemorrhaging into the pleural cavity were caused in vivo as an effect of a high-power impact to the chest of Zolotaryov at the moment of his fall, squeezing or throwing. The damage of the soft tissue in the area of Mr. Zolotaryov’s head and the presence of bath skin in the area of fingers and upper and lower extremities are postmortem changes in the body of Zolotaryov, which was underwater before it was found.
Zolotaryov died as a result of violence.
Medical-Forensic Examination of a body
On the May 9, 1959 in accordance with decree of the Prosecutor office of Sverdlovsk region of May 7, 1959 by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of the criminal prosecutor of regional prosecutor office junior Counselor in Justice L.N. Ivanov and criminal expert Churkina G.A. in the morgue of the medical unit of PO Box 240 with daylight and sunny weather there was performed the autopsy of the body of Aleksander KOLEVATOV, 24 years old, in order to determine the cause of death and answers to the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances
On January 23, 1959 the independent group of hikers consisting of 10 people went across the ski track Ivdel – Mount Otorten. From the 2nd Severny site the group consisted of 9 people. On February 1, 1959 the group started the climb on the mount Otorten and in the evening they put up a tent at the height of 1 079 meters.
In the night of February 2 at the unknown circumstances all 9 people died.
CONCLUSION:
Based on the examination of the body , of Kolevatov, I think that his death was the result of low temperature.
The injuries that appear on Kolevatov’s body in the area of his head – defects in the soft tissue and the ‘bath skin’ – are the result of post-death changes in the body, which was located in water for some time before it was found.
The cause of death of Kolevatov was through violence.
Medical-Forensic Examination of a body
On the May 9, 1959 in accordance with decree of the Prosecutor office of Sverdlovsk region of May 7, 1959 by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of the criminal prosecutor of regional prosecutor office junior Counselor in Justice L.N. Ivanov and criminal expert Churkina G.A. in the morgue of the medical unit of the PO Box 240 with daylight and sunny weather there was performed the autopsy of the body of THIBEAUX-BRIGNOLLE Nikolay Vasilyevich, 23 years old, in order to determine the cause of death and answers to the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances:
On January 23, 1959 the independent group of hikers consisting of 10 people went across the ski track Ivdel – Mount Otorten. From the 2nd Northern site the group consisted of 9 people. On February 1, 1959 the group started the climb on the mount Otorten and in the evening they put up a tent at the height of 1 079 meters.
In the night of February 2 at the unknown circumstances all 9 people died.
CONCLUSION
On the basis of the examination of the body of Thibeaux-Brignolle, it is my opinion that his death was the result of a closed comminuted pressure fracture in the area of the base and the vault of the cranium with a prolific amount of bleeding under the meninges and brain matter while under low temperature. The above-mentioned extensive comminuted fracture of the base and the vault of the cranium are of in vivo origin and are the result of a great force with the subsequent falling, hurling and concussion of Thibeaux-Brignolle.
The corporal damage of the soft tissue in the area of the head and the ‘bath skin’ of the extremities are the result of post-mortem changes in the body of Thibeaux-Brignolle, which was found submerged in water after some time.
The death of Thibeaux-Brignolle was a result of violence.
In summary:
V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev in the presence of N. I. Klinov, L.N. Ivanov and witnesses S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
According to the examination results of the body belonging to Doroshenko Yuri Nikolayevich, aged 21, and considering the circumstances
we believe
The death is violent and accidental.
V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev in the presence of N. I. Klinov, L.N. Ivanov and witnesses S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
Based on the data of investigation of the body of Krivonischenko Georgiy Alekseevich, 23 years old, and considering the facts of the case
we think
The death was violent and accidental.
V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev, in the presence of N. I. Klinov, L. N. Ivanov, and S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev,
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
Based on the data discovered (added by hand) from the examination of the body of Igor Alekseevich Dyatlov, 23 years old, and considering the circumstances
we think
The cause of death is by violence/accident.
V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev, in the presence N.I. Klinov, L.N. Ivanov, and S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
Based on the investigation of the body of Kolmogorova Zinaida Alekseevna, 22 years old, and taking into account the circumstances
we feel
The cause of death was violent and accidental.
V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev, in the presence N.I. Klinov, L. N. Ivanov, and S. D. Gordo and K. V. Naskichev
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
Based on the data of the examination of the body of Slobodin Rustem Vladimirovich, 23 years old, and considering the circumstances
I believe
Slobodin’s death was violent and accidental.
V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence L.N. Ivanov and Churkina G.A.
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
Based on the forensic examination of the body of L. A. Dubinina
I think
The death of Dubinina is through violence.
V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of L.N. Ivanov and Churkina G.A.
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
Based on the examination of the body
I think
Zolotaryov died as a result of violence.
V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence L.N. Ivanov and Churkina G.A
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
Based on the examination of the body of Kolevatov
I think
The cause of death of Kolevatov was through violence.
V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of L.N. Ivanov and Churkina G.A.
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
On the basis of the examination of the body of Thibeaux-Brignolle
it is my opinion
The death of Thibeaux-Brignolle was a result of violence.
And if we refine once more:
V. A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of N. I. Klinov, S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
we believe
The death is violent and accidental.
V. A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of N. I. Klinov, and S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
we think
The death was violent and accidental.
V. A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of N. I. Klinov, and S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev,
we think
The cause of death is by violence/accident.
V. A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of N.I. Klinov, and S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
we feel
The cause of death was violent and accidental.
V. A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence N.I. Klinov, and S. D. Gordo and K. V. Naskichev
I believe
Slobodin’s death was violent and accidental.
V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of Churkina G.A.
I think
The death of Dubinina is through violence.
V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of Churkina G.A.
I think
Zolotaryov died as a result of violence.
V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence Churkina G.A
I think
The cause of death of Kolevatov was through violence.
V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of Churkina G.A.
it is my opinion
The death of Thibeaux-Brignolle was a result of violence.
It appears that the conclusions of the autopsies are different according to the people surrounding V.A. Vozrozhdenny. Ivanov was always present, it is doubtful that Laptev or Churkina could have influenced Vozrozhdenny, so it was N.I. Klinov, S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev who made the difference. And we can refine once more the list:
in the presence of N.I. Klinov, S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
The death is violent and accidental
in the presence of N.I. Klinov, S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
The death was violent and accidental
in the presence of N.I. Klinov, S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
The cause of death is by violence/accident
in the presence of N.I. Klinov, S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
The cause of death was violent and accidental
in the presence of N.I. Klinov, S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
Slobodin’s death was violent and accidental
V.A. Vozrozhdenny
The death of Dubinina is through violence.
V.A. Vozrozhdenny
Zolotaryov died as a result of violence.
V.A. Vozrozhdenny
The cause of death of Kolevatov was through violence.
V.A. Vozrozhdenny
The death of Thibeaux-Brignolle was a result of violence.
When N.I. Klinov, S. D. Gordo and K. V. Naskichev were not present, V.A. Vozrozhdenny always correctly concluded to "The cause of death was through violence", it was only when they were present that he abusively concluded to "and accidental". V.A. Vozrozhdenny knew these conclusions were abusive and that's why he used the conditional in the reports of the autopsies where N.I. Klinov and S.D. Gordo were present and that's why he never wrote "we think" or "we believe" or "we feel" in the reports of the autopsies where N.I. Klinov and S.D. Gordo were not present but always "I think" and "it is my opinion", always basing his conclusion only on the exam of the body and neglecting to consider the "unknown circumstances" of the death.
The conclusion "and accidental" was always an abusive and collective conclusion where N.I. Klinov and S.D. Gordo were involved and V.A. Vozrozhdenny never concluded to "and accidental" when he was alone and free of their pressures.---
Yes but the circumstances of the death are the same "unknown circumstances" in all autopsy reports and the absence of Klinov and Gordo allowed Vozrozhdenny not to write "and accidental". There is a clear opposition between:
"Based on the investigation of the body of Kolmogorova Zinaida Alekseevna, 22 years old, and taking into account the circumstances of the case, we feel that the death... violent and accidental."
and
"Based on the forensic examination of the body of L. A. Dubinina I think that the death... violence."
It is not about the location where the bodies were found but about the pressure put by Klinov and Gordo on Vozrozhdenny. Vozrozhdenny, when doing his job free of pressure, could only conclude to "The death is violent", the extra and abusive "and accidental" being only the expression of the pressure put by Klinov and Gordo. It is obvious and must be credited to Vozrozhdenny (whose rating rises on this occasion).
But you have here a personal mail waiting for your reply: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1190.msg19342#msg19342---
The autopsy is to report the cause of death, not solve the crime.
It is exactly my point here. The conclusions excluded the possibility of "murder" when Klinov and Gordo were with Vozrozhdenny, the conclusions included the possibility of "murder" when Vozrozhdenny was alone. The autopsies in presence of Klinov and Gordo already solved the case, and when Vozrozhdenny was alone they just reported the cause of death, with a conclusion remaining at the level of genus and not descending at the level of species. Genus is violence and species are accident, suicide and murder. The first five conclusions were already and illegitimately closing the case, the last four conclusions kept the case open. What did Vozrozhdenny, when he was alone after Klinov and Gordo left, was huge. And I think he deserves a credit for maintaining the legitimate genus conclusion and abandoning the illegitimate species conclusion. Because he didn't have, for any of the nine bodies, the elements allowing to leave genus and to descend into species: he couldn't legitimately conclude to any of accident, suicide or murder species. The conclusions in presence of Klinov and Gordo were abusive, and the abuse stopped when they left and Vozrozhdenny remained alone.---
I'm awaiting your reply to when the request to exhume the 9 bodies was given?
Apparently, the request to exhume the nine bodies is still awaited:
"Tumanov's opinion is that all bodies should be exhumed and subjected to a new full autopsy for missed or omitted on purpose details."
https://dyatlovpass.com/theories?lid=1&flp=1#fight
And:
"He is pointing at the following discrepancies and violations when the bodies were first protocoled:
[...]The conclusions in the first five autopsy reports were copy/pasted"
The presence of Klinov and Gordo lowered the quality of the first five autopsies they attended. The quality of the autopsy reports increased after Klinov and Gordo left and when Vozrozhdenny was alone.
Er ...no Charles, if you haven't already re-edited your posts. You said the reason they stopped the ehumintaion was because the found 3 fractures were found in Zolotaryov. The reason for the ehumintaion of Zolotaryov was for a different reason that I shared with you.
The reason for the exhumation of Zolotaryov is indifferent, they found 3 new fractures at the scapula, and it was certainly a good motive not to exhume the other bodies as wished by Tumanov. That's what I think, if I was not precise, I corrected myself and my position is clear: I think exactly the same as Tumanov: all 9 bodies should be exhumed and that the possibility to find new fractures certainly restrained the authorities to complete a serious investigation.---
I am sure that you are a better person than you show yourself here and I won't blame you if you edit your previous reply to improve the quality of its content, you have the right to be wrong and to regret.
I am sure that you are a better person than you show yourself here and I won't blame you if you edit your previous reply to improve the quality of its content, you have the right to be wrong and to regret: it is called a repentir in painting.---
If you had something to say, you could write a reply in the thread, here (https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1190.msg19291#msg19291). Otherwise it's just another ad hominem attack from somebody who can't find arguments, that's all: I am not responsible if you can't understand taxonomy, genus and species.
It would seem our Charles is heavily editing his posts. I wonder why?Уходит в партизаны?
I think it's because he's writing about the ravine 4. There deaths can be attributed to the injuries the sustained. They can equate that those injuries were the cause of death. I could be wrong but I think they mean violence to the body and not violence in the context from another human . The others are reported to have slight injuries and death is accidental. I think what they are trying to say there's no sign of external injuries that would imply other humans. The external injuries are not the cause of death. It's all they can write. It's procedure .....
I think it's because he's writing about the ravine 4. There deaths can be attributed to the injuries the sustained. They can equate that those injuries were the cause of death. I could be wrong but I think they mean violence to the body and not violence in the context from another human . The others are reported to have slight injuries and death is accidental. I think what they are trying to say there's no sign of external injuries that would imply other humans. The external injuries are not the cause of death. It's all they can write. It's procedure .....
Сэр Ziljoe, проверяйте свое родословное дерево. У Вас явно гены - от сэра Артура Конан Дойля.
Вы ухватили самый главный смысл термина - причина смерти насильственная. Возрожденный писал этот термин именно для юристов.
У юристов - насильственная смерть это все кроме смерти от старости. От чего или кого происходило насилие и случилась смерть - это задача расследования. Следствие искало посторонних людей, природные явления и попыталось даже поглядеть в сторону техногенной катастрофы. Следствие - не рассматривала самоубийства. Хотя и они - это насильственная смерть, только насилие над собою совершает сам субъект.
В результате - следствие в Прекращении уголовного дело так и описало то, что совершило насилие и сделало туристов мертвыми. Неодолимая стихийная сила природы.
Sir Ziljoe, check your family tree. You obviously have genes - from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.
You have grasped the most important meaning of the term - the cause of death is violent. Vozrozhdenny wrote this term specifically for lawyers.
For lawyers, violent death is everything except death from old age. From what or whom the violence occurred and death happened - this is the task of the investigation. The investigation was looking for strangers, natural phenomena, and even tried to look in the direction of a man-made disaster. Consequence - did not consider suicide. Although they are a violent death, only the subject himself commits violence against himself.
As a result, the investigation in the Termination of the criminal case described exactly what committed the violence and made the tourists dead. Irresistible elemental force of nature.
Thank you Почемучка
Our family tree is hard to trace, only a link to vikings .
Forum member Igor B helped to explain the term violent in the context of Russian law. The autopsies translate reasonably well into English and seem matter of factual. Perhaps they could have done more but it was 1959 and forensic science was evolving . I imagine that they had found all that they could at that time.
The investigation seems to run through all possibilities and came to a dead end. I believe ,if there was a cover-up , then it would have been done so that none of our conversations would be taking place.
What is your understanding of what occured to the DP9?.
nothing here
Это совпало с приходом Анны Русских. Видимо "Боливар не выдержит двоих" О. Генри.nothing here
What happened to Charles?
What happened to Charles?
I haven't been on this forum in a long time and now I've read the latest posts and I feel very sorry that the forum has become very "yellowed". It's similar to the "yellow press" online. The discussion here has been reduced to a lot of rumor and gossip that has absolutely nothing to do with reality. I understand that it is very difficult to understand the actual events of another state 60+ years later, but to distort them as much as you do here is no longer possible. I remember well the events in my life back then and am quite capable of judging it from a modern perspective, as I have no distortions related to fiction. I saw and see everything in reality. In addition, I have the ability to judge many things from a professional point of view.
Очень мешает то, что английский язык сплющивает красноречие русского языка.True. But some of us read Russian. Do not hesitate to post in Russian please.
Теодора, мне плакать хочется, когда я смотрю во что превращаются мои тексты при переводе. А если шпарить только на русском - читающие жалуются. Я понимаю, что "русские" темы - они такие сочные и такие с лирическими отступлениями и не академического вида.
True. But some of us read in Russian. Do not hesitate to post in Russian please.
You are misrepresenting the original information. Prodanov could not have given any orders to military pilots. That is a different department. Even a general of another branch of the military could not give orders to pilots. I had a case in practice where an infantry general ordered to load equipment and fly. The crew commander replied, "I can load, but I won't take off because it's against flight rules." There it was a matter of overloading the plane and improper alignment of the cargo, and the general wanted to send it off faster. But there was nothing he could do.Посмотрела сообщения ВАБ, которого я не знала и с которым никогда не общалась, но который позволил себе оскорбить меня и мою версию в разделе "конференция 64"
In the same way, Potyazhenko would not take the bodies because they were packed in violation of the instructions for transporting such cargo.
That is why your phrase: "Potyazhenko's correct answer would be: "we refused to take the bodies to Sverdlovsk, but we were following Prodanov's order" (c) is false.
You are misrepresenting the original information. Prodanov could not have given any orders to military pilots. That is a different department. Even a general of another branch of the military could not give orders to pilots. I had a case in practice where an infantry general ordered to load equipment and fly. The crew commander replied, "I can load, but I won't take off because it's against flight rules." There it was a matter of overloading the plane and improper alignment of the cargo, and the general wanted to send it off faster. But there was nothing he could do.Посмотрела сообщения ВАБ, которого я не знала и с которым никогда не общалась, но который позволил себе оскорбить меня и мою версию в разделе "конференция 64"
In the same way, Potyazhenko would not take the bodies because they were packed in violation of the instructions for transporting such cargo.
That is why your phrase: "Potyazhenko's correct answer would be: "we refused to take the bodies to Sverdlovsk, but we were following Prodanov's order" (c) is false.
Я со всей ответственностью заявляю, что ВАБ вводит блоггеров данного форума в заблуждение своими не компетентными высказываниями. В данном конкретном случае:
Проданов как глава Ивдельского райкома партии мог отдавать приказы в своей вотчине кому угодно, даже военным и даже прокурорам, а уж каким-то вертолетчикам - тем более. В качестве доказательства смотри 6 статья Конституции СССР того времени с руководящей ролью КПСС, которой подчинялись все структуры.
I looked at the messages of VAB, whom I did not know and with whom I had never communicated, but who allowed himself to insult me and my version in the "conference 64" section
I declare with all responsibility that In AB to mislead bloggers with their incompetent statements. In this particular case:
Prodanov, as the head of the Ivdelsky district party committee, could give orders in his patrimony to anyone, even military and even prosecutors, and even some helicopter pilots - even more so. As proof, see Article 6 of the USSR Constitution of that time with the leading role of the CPSU, to which all structures were subordinate.
I'm not sure what the argument is here but there are procedures or protocol's regarding flight in planes, helicopters etc. Payload , lose cargo , flying hours and conditions. I believe if orders are against flight regulations , the pilots would be in their right to refuse. These assumptions happen in the west too.Здесь аргумент лишь в том, что ВАБ утверждает: Проданов не имел право отдавать приказ летчикам, так как они ему не подчинялись.
Could be. More likely is that Charles just got upset and left. vroom1
Could be. More likely is that Charles just got upset and left. vroom1
Yes, that is very likely. It was not the most productive action.
I can understand his probable frustration on some people's denial of the factual cold-blooded murder of nine students who unfortunately happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, though.