Theories Discussion > Murdered

A problem with homicide theories

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sarapuk:

--- Quote from: RMK on December 01, 2020, 04:48:40 PM ---
--- Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on December 01, 2020, 09:21:02 AM ---Everything we know points to homicide. The injuries to the bodies are only explicable by being caused by an attack with lethal intent, by other humans.

--- End quote ---
That is an overstatement.  Homicide theories are certainly worth considering, and I place some of them among the most credible explanations.  But most, maybe even all, of the injuries the "Dyatlovites" sustained can be attributed to misadventures, and to "routine wear-and-tear" that people would normally sustain when skiing cross-country, scrounging for firewood in bare hands in the dark, etc.


--- Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on December 01, 2020, 09:21:02 AM ---Considering the fact that the attackers almost certainly arrived on skis an that the first searchers did not understand that they had arrived at a crime scene, it was a matter of course that no traces of the attackers were found.

--- End quote ---
I actually agree with you there.  The lack of attackers' traces is to be expected if the attackers are professional assassins.  But, it is merely a rebuttal to an objection to homicide theories, and I think we would both have to concede that it is not a very persuasive argument in favor of homicide.

So, to bring this back to the topic of the thread...  Per Inge, why was it that the killers didn't fabricate some reason for the Dyatlovites to abandon their tent?

--- End quote ---

No proof that any other Humans arrived at The Tent by Skis or walking.

RMK:

--- Quote from: sarapuk on December 02, 2020, 01:01:48 PM ---No proof that any other Humans arrived at The Tent by Skis or walking.

--- End quote ---
Well, true, there's no "smoking gun".  But that's a problem with homicide theories different from the one this thread is about.

mk:

--- Quote from: RMK on November 28, 2020, 03:47:56 PM --- I am currently convinced that IF the DPI was a result of homicide, then the assailants were intelligent, trained, professional killers who knew what they were doing, and wanted to make the Dyatlov team's deaths appear as natural as possible.  And that brings me to the problem I have with homicide theories: if the killers were so smart and effective, then why didn't they do something about the "elephant in the room"--the complete lack of any apparent reason why the Dyatlov team left their tent under-dressed and then abandoned it by descending Kholat Syakhl?!  In other words, why didn't they stage or plant physical "evidence" that would provide credible answers to Questions 1 & 2 (and maybe even 3 as well)?...

--- End quote ---

I dunno-- it seems like the most obvious way to make it look like a natural death in siberia would be to make sure they died of hypothermia.  Force the poorly-dressed campers into the forest and douse them in water. All this talk of highly-trained killing men with their specialized techniques seems so... Hollywood. 

For example, if the theoretical killers had simply suffocated the hikers and left their bodies in the woods, how would that have played out differently?  Frozen bodies would have been found and the assumption would have been death of hypothermia--just like now.  Autopsies would have been done and some anomalies found that indicated foul play--just like now.  And people would have shrugged and said something like, "Well, they were probably near-unconscious from the cold and fell into the snow and suffocated as they froze." 

If their injuries were the result of malevolent humans, it strikes me that the killers were rather unconcerned about making things look natural.  Flail chests aren't exactly natural.

Jean Daniel Reuss:


--- Quote from: sarapuk on December 02, 2020, 01:01:48 PM ---Reply #5................................
No proof that any other Humans arrived at The Tent by Skis or walking.

--- End quote ---

   Of course there is no proof ! And there will probably never be any.
To solve an enigma, whatever its playful or police nature, it is necessary to call on all human mental faculties to imagine one or more solutions that are capable of explaining all the known facts.

And it is likely that the state secret about DPI will last a very long time, because according to French political experts (but they are often wrong), currently in 2020, President Putin is determined not to reveal anything that could alter the reputation of previous regimes of the USSR (Stalin, Khrushchev ...) and even the reputation of the tsarist regime (Nicolas II ...) !!


--- Quote from: RMK on November 28, 2020, 03:47:56 PM ---...At least 4 questions arise  :  WHY...

* 1..hikers exit their tent....?
* 2..hikers descend the slope....?
* 3..hikers do not return to their tent....?
* 4..the cause of death of the hikers does not seem natural....?...............................................

--- End quote ---

      - 1 - Why did the Dyatlov hikers exit their tent, with mostly inadequate clothing and footwear for the Siberian winter?
  •  Which is the most difficult to reconstruct is the sudden and hurried exit from the tent without the short-handled axes that were inside.
Threats, e.g. with a firearm, would have warned the hikers of a danger and they would not have left the tent with their bare hands in order to defend themselves and eventually counterattack.
This is a remark first raised by alecsandros : Altercation on the pass > Altercation on the pass  -->Reply #32
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg9765#msg9765


  • Hypothesis N°1 :   By surprise the attackers made the atmosphere inside the tent unbreathable in a few tens of seconds.
It should be noted that the volume of air inside the tent is small, less than 5 m³, which makes this hypothesis N°1 particularly efficient.
The attackers (perhaps only three) triggered their first offensive just after the stove assembly was completed and the "battle sheet" "Evening otorten No. 1" was written, but before the hikers had time to fire the wood in the stove. Several possibilities :

   a) The attackers put a tear gas or a suffocating gas hand grenedade coming from the stocks of the army, the police, the guarding of the Gulag camps or bought illegally on the black market.

   b) The attackers used an Improvised Suffocating Device, for instance :  2.KNO³ + 4.S --> 3.SO² + N² + K²S or 2.KClO³ + 3.S --> 3.SO² + 2.KCl
KNO³, KClO³ and S are very common products that could easily be bought in the Ivdel drugstore.

  c) According to the more enigmatic of Anatoly Stepochkin the attackers launched "some kind of dope inside" the tent.   See :
https://dyatlovpass.com/dmitriy-borisov-2019-02-12

  • Hypothesis N°2 : The exit of the tent without the axes can be explained by cunning (trickery, deception, false flag...).
The attackers won the hikers' trust and recognition (during the first few minutes) with many kind and compassionate words.

A famous example of a ruse to succeed in killing a victim on his guard is the murder of Leon Trotsky by Ramon mercader, who for several months managed to convince Trosky of his  deep friendship (in order to be in a position to hit him mortally with a short-handled ice axe).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Trotsky
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram%C3%B3n_Mercader

 To render this hypothesis N°2  more concretely here is an additional imaginary short tale whose spirit must be retained and not the letter.

In the tent on the slope of the Kholat Syakl, in the darkness, on February 1, 1959, around 8 pm, unexpectedly the 9 hikers heard... the leader of the (probably only 3) attackers - who was a good comedian - who shouted in a firm but almost panicky voice :

 - Sorry to bother you here.
 - You do not know me, but I am the general in charge of missile tests in the Sverdlovsk region...
( or Ivdel ...or xxx base ...there, to be more credible, the false and misleading speech can add some details about the current state of Soviet military technology in 1959. These are precisions or details which are certainly known by any student of the UPI.

( It is the "art" of deception (cheating) to incorporate exact details known to the person you want to fool (deceive) into the main important lie).

 - The place where you set up your tent three hours ago must be cleared immediately.

 - We have lost control of an experimental missile (here indication of a model that might be known to hikers) and I personally rush to warn you :

 - I have just learned that the latest prediction calculations indicate that the mad explosive projectile will fall exactly where your tent is. Luckily we succeeded in finding you so that we could warn you in time!

 - Hurry! Hurry! We  must all leave immediately, otherwise death is assured. Let us all go down quickly in the taiga where there is almost no wind. It is very close. (close ! : a little lie that goes unnoticed despite the fact that Dyatlov knew his position on the slope).

After hearing these friendly words, the hikers feel grateful to these new friends who come running in the bad weather and the darkness to save their lives.

So the 9 hickers leaved the tent immediately, (so to speak instinctively, because in case of unforeseen danger we have to react quickly), thinking that they will be able to go back in a few minutes.

It is here that it is useful to read Vietnamka   : General Discussion / Clothes => « on: March 26, 2019, 09:35:48 AM »
    https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=396.msg4583#msg4583

    "...Acute phase of stress.
    At this moment, in the cerebral cortex is formed a center of dominant arousal, all human mental activity is directed towards one thing - to get out from under the influence, to weaken its effect, to cope.
    If the house is on fire - people jump out in shorts and do not think that they will be cold. If there is a child in the house, the mother in the nightgown will run around the house and scream, not realizing how she looks and that she is cold.
    This is always accompanied by changes in the endocrine function (adrenaline is released) and the autonomic nervous system (the pupils dilate or contract, the heart begins to beat, the pressure rises, etc.).
         It is a fact that all these reactions are also protective against cold - heat production increases and a person not only may not feel cold, but may be feel hot.
    ............"

And thus all the 12 (3 attackers + 9 hikers) people started to descend along the line of greatest slope without undue haste (a military expression indicating that awareness of danger does not imply panic).


   - 2 -   Having exited their tent under-dressed, why did the Dyatlov hikers descend the slope, moving away from their tent...
  • The snow-covered ground was slippery but quite hard. There was a slight downhill slope without deep holes.
For the first few minutes the hikers were not weakened by the intense cold. The hikers were sporty, young, agile and trained.
They had an excellent sense of balance and even if they stumbled on a slippery obstacle they got up immediately.
So I think the trip from the cedar tent (1500m) in complete darkness took less than 10 minutes (contrary to recent other opinions, look at GKM, WAB....).
       During this time the hikers could not calmly think about their strange situation.

  •  The attackers accompanied the hikers towards the cedar by making them believe that they were going to help them, or,

  •  on the contrary,  threatening them and starting to hit them.
    The attackers compelled the hikers to go down the slope by hitting them with blunt wooden objects judiciously carved (length=110 cm and weight=4 kg being held with two hand.
    If the attackers were strong it is probably enough to use 70 cm and 1.5 kg being held with one hands.
    In each case the energy of a blow can reach several hundred joules.

  • 300 m before reaching the cedar, the attackers disappeared in the night and the hikers found themselves alone.



   - 3 - Having descended the slope, why did the Dyatlov hikers not return to their tent ?
  • It is there at the foot of the cedar that the hikers were fully aware that they had been fooled by the attackers
So a discussion begins and the separation of the 9 hikers into 2 groups occurs.
( Another senario is possible in which Kolmogorova, then Slobodin, have already been put out of action on the slope and lie unconscious in the 2 places where their bodies were found. In this case there are only 7 hikers remaining at the foot of the cedar).

  • Climbing up to find the tent was difficult in complete darkness: there was a great risk of passing within a few meters (e.g. 10 meters) of the tent without seeing it. And then there were no landmarks afterwards.
         You do not know where to search anymore: Where to go ? climbing up ? Going down ? Going left ? Going right ?

  • Zolotaryov (the oldest ...), Kolevatov (sojourn at Moscow ...), Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle (repression of his father Vladimir Iosifovich ...) are the most aware of the internal political situation of the USSR and think that the mysterious attackers are determined and really dangerous for their live .
 Zolotaryov, Kolevatov and Thibeaux-Brignolle therefore decide to go into hiding as best they can a little further away by building the Den and also persuade Dubinina to accompany them (for a reason which remains to be clarified).
 
  • On the contrary, Dyatlov, Doroshenko and Krivonishenko (the least politically aware) believed that the strange attackers were simply thieves who would leave after taking away the contents of the tent.
It was useless to try to go back up and risk receiving a knife wound.
So much for the hike, which was ruined. It would be relatively easy to go back through the nearby Labaz (full of food) and afterwards return safely to the Settlement 41.
The most important thing to do immediatly is not to freeze to death and they choose in priority to light a fire.

  • But when the attackers resumed their offensive around midnight at the foot of the cedar ................
      ...............to be continued at : Altercation on the pass > Altercation on the pass.



- 4 - the assailants were intelligent ...... and wanted to make the Dyatlov team's deaths appear as natural as possible
 • Deaths appear as natural as possible ==> On the contrary, the aim of the assailants was to make Khrushchev's government in Moscow understand perfectly that the massacre of the 9 hikers was a ferocious terrorist attack.

  • Assailants ==> Not necessarily very intelligent. The assailants knew above all how to hit hard with blunt objects (possibly wrapped in cloths) and judiciously adapted to be effectively grasped by the hands (important practical detail to use blunt objects as weapons).

 •   It should also be understood that the attackers were armed with rudimentary blunt objects and were also few in number. Probably only 3 mercenaries had been sent to the slope of the Kholat Syakhl by a rich commander, client, boss, sponsor... who had remained in Vizhay, (See also Aleks Kandr).

That is why I should logically write my posts in the Topic : Altercation on the pass and not in the Topic : Murdered.

So to speak, the movements of the Stalinists opposed to the Khrushchev Thaw were in the throes of a rout in 1959. (The Stalinist opposition of the former NKVD officer regained strength only with the coming to power of Brezhnev in 1964).

  • Look also at : Infra-sound/Gravity fluctuation/Teleportation => Infrasound? Most unlikely -> December 02,2020, 02:13:51 PM : Reply #105
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=116.msg11320#msg11320[/list]

sarapuk:
Jean Daniel Reuss, you keep constantly reminding us of your theory. But you have provided no evidence or a realistic scenario. The injuries are of an unknown origin. A person dropped from an height could suffer such injuries. But that still wouldnt explain the missing eyes and tongue. No footprints other than those of the Dyatlov Group.  You state and I quote ;
   ''Of course there is no proof ! And there will probably never be any.
To solve an enigma, whatever its playful or police nature, it is necessary to call on all human mental faculties to imagine one or more solutions that are capable of explaining all the known facts.''
Isnt that a contradiction to say that there will probably never be any proof when you are trying to conjure up some proof with your theory. Also the way Detectives go about their work is not by imagining things its by constructing a case from material and facts.
 

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