I believe the main issue with any of the murder theories I have seen to date is the lack of motive.
Or, those injuries are from a fight within in the group as things got desperate around the fire and some disagreement broke out. Or relating back to the decision to abandon the tent. It is interesting that Igor, Rustem and Zina were found more than 150 meters apart from each if they were going back to the tent. It's as if they went separately.
In addition, I think there is entirely too much faith put into the idea that Igor, Zina, and Rustem died while attempting to return to the tent.
I believe the main issue with any of the murder theories I have seen to date is the lack of motive. Most of you may know I have issues with all theories, but I also see the possibilities in each as well. I am most definitely not married to any one theory. That being said, I believe the most compelling aspects of any murder theory at its foundation are the injuries. I wont go through them all but lets take three individuals that were NOT subject to months of rotting in a creek...... Igor, Rustem, and Zina. These three individuals were literally frozen in place and intact.
Igor
1. minor abrasions on the forehead
2. minor abrasions on the upper eyelids
3. brown-red abrasions above the left eyebrow
4. minor abrasions on the left cheek
5. brown-red abrasions on both cheeks
6. dried blood on lips
12. purple-gray discoloration on back side of the right hand
13. metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone.
14. left hand is brown-purple color with brownish-red bruises
15. superficial wounds on the 2nd and 5th finger on the left hand
16. skin wound in the palmar surface of the 2nd 5th finger of left hand
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Igor-Dyatlov-autopsy-report.png)
Now, when I look at all this its only logical to assume Igor was fighting someone or 'something'. Even if you were to explain some of them away as injuries having acquired somehow other then fighting, Im not convinced you can eliminate all of them i.e if even ONE of them was caused by foul play...... you have a problem.
Please take note of this injury in particular.
13. metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone.
Being a former Marine and a little rambunctious in a past life I can attest many of the above injuries are consistent with...... fighting.
Rustem
1. hemorrhages in the temporalis muscles
2. minor brownish red abrasions on the forehead
3. two scratches are 1.5 cm long at the distance of 0.3 cm between them
4. brownish red bruise on the upper eyelid of the right eye with hemorrhage into the underlying tissues
5. traces of blood discharge from the nose
6. swelling and a lot of small abrasions on both sides of the face
7. bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands (bruised knuckles). Similar bruises are common in hand to hand fight
8.brown cherry bruises on the medial aspect of the left arm and left palm
9. swollen lips
10. bruises on the left tibia in dimensions at 2.5x1.5 cm (not shown on diagram)
11. epidermis is torn from the right forearm (not shown on diagram)
12. fracture of the frontal bone 6x0.1 cm located 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture (showing on separate skull trauma diagram without numbers)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Rustem-Slobodin-autopsy-report.png)
Literally the entire list of injuries of Rustem 'could' be attributed to..... fighting.
Please take note of this injury in particular.
7. bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands (bruised knuckles). Similar bruises are common in hand to hand fighting
(https://sks-files.com/Smileys/solosmileys/39.gif)
Zina
1. dark red abrasion on the right frontal eminence
2. pale gray area 3x2 cm above the right eyebrow
3. dark red abrasion on the upper eyelids
4. brown red graze on the bridge and tip of the nose
5. numerous abrasions on the left cheekbone
6. bruised skin on the right side of the face
7. brown-red abrasion on the back of both hands in the area of metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal joints
8. wound with jagged edges and missing skin on the back of the right hand at the base of the third finger
10. a long bright red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Zinaida-Kolmogorova-autopsy-report.png)
Again, the entire list other then #9 (frostbite) 'could' be attributed to... hand/hand combat. bat1
Note #10 in the image is misleading. The waist injury is isolated to the right side and can not be a result of "pulling a roped sled" around the waist which would be evenly distributed to both sides and the front.
10. a long bright red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton
Also note the severity of this injury in particular and the descriptions accuracy which 'should' be an indication of the rest of the injuries description accuracy.
8. wound with jagged edges and missing skin on the back of the right hand at the base of the third finger
(https://i.ibb.co/BTcgZkS/Dyatlov-group-colorized-by-Mikko-Kolkkanen-061.jpg)
Conclusion.
I dont know about you guys, but thats a whole lot of busted up heads, and knuckles with side order of blood to go around. Again, can some of thes injuris have been caused by climbing trees, falling on rocks etc... sure, but 'what if' even ONE of them wasn't? The who, what, when, where, and why I leave to you.
I think its quite possible that a scuffle or two broke out amongst the group given the separate situation and the life or death decisions they knew they were making. It would be very stressful and stress leads to short tempers.
Something else about the above photo of Dyatlov's hands. They are filthy with dirt and grime. Now, there was snow and the ground was frozen so how come his hands are so dirty? Were they already that dirty after they pitched the tent and he made no attempt to wash/clean them ( seems unlikely ). Did he get them dirty trying to set up the stove in the tent? Did he get them dirty climbing the cedar tree, or cutting the branches to make the fire, or building a den? It's interesting as it might provide some insight as to wether Dyatlov, Rustem and Zina actually made it to the cedar or not.
To be it seems likely that they did make it to the cedar, and therefore died on the slope trying to return to tent. The extent of grime on his hands indicates that those hands had done a lot of work before he died.
I think its quite possible that a scuffle or two broke out amongst the group given the separate situation and the life or death decisions they knew they were making. It would be very stressful and stress leads to short tempers.
Something else about the above photo of Dyatlov's hands. They are filthy with dirt and grime. Now, there was snow and the ground was frozen so how come his hands are so dirty? Were they already that dirty after they pitched the tent and he made no attempt to wash/clean them ( seems unlikely ). Did he get them dirty trying to set up the stove in the tent? Did he get them dirty climbing the cedar tree, or cutting the branches to make the fire, or building a den? It's interesting as it might provide some insight as to wether Dyatlov, Rustem and Zina actually made it to the cedar or not.
To be it seems likely that they did make it to the cedar, and therefore died on the slope trying to return to tent. The extent of grime on his hands indicates that those hands had done a lot of work before he died.
I think you will find that those dirty looking hands are due to FROSTBITE.
1) all the symptoms of frostbite appear after After rewarming only. Did they have have time for rewarm ? How did they rewarm?
I think you will find that those dirty looking hands are due to FROSTBITE.
I think its quite possible that a scuffle or two broke out amongst the group given the separate situation and the life or death decisions they knew they were making. It would be very stressful and stress leads to short tempers.
Something else about the above photo of Dyatlov's hands. They are filthy with dirt and grime. Now, there was snow and the ground was frozen so how come his hands are so dirty? Were they already that dirty after they pitched the tent and he made no attempt to wash/clean them ( seems unlikely ). Did he get them dirty trying to set up the stove in the tent? Did he get them dirty climbing the cedar tree, or cutting the branches to make the fire, or building a den? It's interesting as it might provide some insight as to wether Dyatlov, Rustem and Zina actually made it to the cedar or not.
To be it seems likely that they did make it to the cedar, and therefore died on the slope trying to return to tent. The extent of grime on his hands indicates that those hands had done a lot of work before he died.
I think you will find that those dirty looking hands are due to FROSTBITE.
That's an interesting point. Don't look like frost bite to me and the autopsy report doesn't say anything about frost bite on his hands, whereas Doreshenko autopsy report makes it clear his fingers and toes are severely frost bitten. I'm not an expert on Thai though.
1) all the symptoms of frostbite appear after After rewarming only. Did they have have time for rewarm ? How did they rewarm?
I think you will find that those dirty looking hands are due to FROSTBITE.
2) frostbites clinical presentation include different phases depending of stage.
"The terminal phalanx of fingers 1-5 on the left hand are solid when palpated" is a 4th phase of necrosis, occures on 7-10 days after onset.
This changes are more typical for postmortem drying.
So is there anyone who clear this up on Dyatlov’s hands?
Frost bite or dirt/grime?
I think when you group the bodies up according to injuries, you find three types. and you find the three types all generally in the same three places. A group that mostly just died of exposure, a group that looked like they were in a fist fight, and another group that was savagely beaten and tortured and then dumped into the river. It seems that there was some favoritism shown here. Some were let off easy or maybe got away before it all started. Some appeared to have escaped, the rest had the ever loving **** kicked out of them.
If I had to guess this was the work of just one or two men who couldn't keep track of everybody in the dark. Doroshenko and Krivonischenko probably slipped away and hid in the cedar until they felt it was safe after the commotion died down. Then they lit a fire. They obviously had no fear of being spotted by that time. They felt they were safe but knew they were dying. The rest were frog marched down to the river. Rustem Slobodin was the first to get it. Maybe he got mouthy, maybe he tried to fight. He got his skull cracked and was left to die. Down at the river the beatings began, and probably got more savage over time. At first it was just kicks to the ribs or rifle butts to the heads. But then it degraded into eyes being gouged out and tongues being cut off. It was already too late for most of them by that time but Dyatlov and Kolmogorova at some point fought their way out and slipped into the night. The killer continued to work over the rest of the group while Dyatlov and Kolmogorova hid. The killer finally finishes and leaves but seems to have no interest in finding the others which should be as easy as following the footprints in the snow. Maybe he decided to just wait at the tent an hour or two knowing they'll all die of exposure. All he has to do is just wait them out. Dyatlov and Kolmogorova return to the river to find their friends dead. By then, who knows how long they'd been out with next to no clothes on. They try to make a shelter and stay in it for a period of time, then notice the fire Doroshenko and Krivonischenko made. They make their way over to them and find them dead probably some number of hours after it all began. They take some of their clothes and try to make it back to the tent. They never make it.
The motive never was robbery. It was very personal. Personal enough to want to make somebody gouge somebody's eyes out and break every bone in their body. The natives maybe. My money is on Yuri Yuden.
You climb trees generally for one of two reasons. An elevated perch to see a longer distance, or to hide from something, somebody. You could make a case for both. Both are suspicious and tend to indicate danger was about, and the climbers were either hiding from it, or trying to determine where it was. Being afraid enough of that danger that you'd chose to freeze to death instead of facing it tells me the story played out over a fairly long period of time. Probably an hour at least. It wasn't a quick event that ended quickly and then all was back to normal again.
Even if it did happen in just a couple of minutes, the initial survivors didn't seem to think it was over for quite some time. Long enough to freeze to death. Being from a cold country myself, I can attest to the fact that on a calm night around 10 below, with low humidity, you could survive all night dressed the way they were, if you were uninjured. I remember standing outside for an hour one evening at -10 talking with a neighbor with just a sweater on. We had just come through 2 weeks of -35 to -40. I thought it was warm out. I wasn't even the least bit cold. Right about that time I remember reading a story of a guy being lost in the bush for three weeks wearing running shoes and a fairly light jacket. He was hunting just for a couple of hours and got lost. He did it. It wouldn't be pleasant to spend all night in that, but you could do it. But that's in good weather. On a very windy night with high wind chill, and high humidity, you have maybe two or three hours maximum. Only the first hour or so would you still be active and useful for any physical purpose. And if you were badly injured it wouldn't half be that long.
My best guess is that the threat was present in the area for at least an hour. Or the survivors were still afraid of the threat an hour later.
It seems to me that eventually the guys up the tree were confident enough to come down and start a fire, but by then they were already so cold it was too late. Probably about an hour to an hour and a half after it all began.
Coincidentally that night there was a half moon and the diaries say the sky was clear. With all the snow on the ground it probably would have been fairly bright. I don't doubt they would have been able to see the tent from that tree. I wonder sometimes if the perpetrator went back to the tent and searched it. It's possible the tent was slashed up later on to render it useless to anybody who might have survived. We assume they cut the holes to get out of it. Maybe that's not the case at all.
About the camera Kolevatov had. I remember the days of old mechanical film cameras. They were worse than cell phones, very delicate. If you dropped it from waist height, it was junk. I'd be interested to see how badly damaged it was. That's why you generally wore the camera on a strap around your neck or with a wrist lanyard, so you couldn't drop it. And in the winter you typically wore it under your jacket to keep it a little bit warmer. The mechanism could freeze up solid, you could get condensation on the film. Advancing the film when very cold and dry caused static discharges that would ruin the film. If the camera was warm the view finder tended not to fog up so easy if you made the mistake of breathing on it. You generally tried to keep it as warm as possible.
Kolevatov was one of the better dressed of the party. He had a jacket on and that camera likely would have been under it. Nobody would have seen it. You only see it in the photo from after his body was pulled out of the river and it kind of falls to the side out of his jacket. Interesting that it's said that when he was told of the camera found on Kolevatov, that Yuri Yuden expressed surprise that it was there. Why would that surprise him? He wasn't there. He didn't know what anybody had on them. Or maybe he was there and never saw it. That's why it came as a surprise to him.
About the camera Kolevatov had. I remember the days of old mechanical film cameras. They were worse than cell phones, very delicate. If you dropped it from waist height, it was junk. I'd be interested to see how badly damaged it was. That's why you generally wore the camera on a strap around your neck or with a wrist lanyard, so you couldn't drop it. And in the winter you typically wore it under your jacket to keep it a little bit warmer. The mechanism could freeze up solid, you could get condensation on the film. Advancing the film when very cold and dry caused static discharges that would ruin the film. If the camera was warm the view finder tended not to fog up so easy if you made the mistake of breathing on it. You generally tried to keep it as warm as possible.
Kolevatov was one of the better dressed of the party. He had a jacket on and that camera likely would have been under it. Nobody would have seen it. You only see it in the photo from after his body was pulled out of the river and it kind of falls to the side out of his jacket. Interesting that it's said that when he was told of the camera found on Kolevatov, that Yuri Yuden expressed surprise that it was there. Why would that surprise him? He wasn't there. He didn't know what anybody had on them. Or maybe he was there and never saw it. That's why it came as a surprise to him.
But surely any one attacking with a murderous intent wouldnt leave any evidence like a camera ! ?
Remember what I said... people do crazy things when they're scared. And even if the tree was no good for hiding or as a lookout, they wouldn't have known that until the got up there, and it was probably still better than running around on the ground with the, "Yeti."
I remember a few years ago reading a story in the paper about a woman high on drugs getting beat up by some random man on the Belle Isle bridge over the Detroit river going to Belle Isle. To get away from him, she jumped off the bridge, and drowned in the Detroit river. She couldn't swim, and about the last place you want to try to learn is the Detroit river. See what I mean?
About the camera Kolevatov had. I remember the days of old mechanical film cameras. They were worse than cell phones, very delicate. If you dropped it from waist height, it was junk. I'd be interested to see how badly damaged it was. That's why you generally wore the camera on a strap around your neck or with a wrist lanyard, so you couldn't drop it. And in the winter you typically wore it under your jacket to keep it a little bit warmer. The mechanism could freeze up solid, you could get condensation on the film. Advancing the film when very cold and dry caused static discharges that would ruin the film. If the camera was warm the view finder tended not to fog up so easy if you made the mistake of breathing on it. You generally tried to keep it as warm as possible.
Kolevatov was one of the better dressed of the party. He had a jacket on and that camera likely would have been under it. Nobody would have seen it. You only see it in the photo from after his body was pulled out of the river and it kind of falls to the side out of his jacket. Interesting that it's said that when he was told of the camera found on Kolevatov, that Yuri Yuden expressed surprise that it was there. Why would that surprise him? He wasn't there. He didn't know what anybody had on them. Or maybe he was there and never saw it. That's why it came as a surprise to him.
But surely any one attacking with a murderous intent wouldnt leave any evidence like a camera ! ?
He didn't know Kolevatov had it. Can't take it if you don't know it exists.
It was Semyon who was found with the camera. Just a point of detail.
About the camera Kolevatov had. I remember the days of old mechanical film cameras. They were worse than cell phones, very delicate. If you dropped it from waist height, it was junk. I'd be interested to see how badly damaged it was. That's why you generally wore the camera on a strap around your neck or with a wrist lanyard, so you couldn't drop it. And in the winter you typically wore it under your jacket to keep it a little bit warmer. The mechanism could freeze up solid, you could get condensation on the film. Advancing the film when very cold and dry caused static discharges that would ruin the film. If the camera was warm the view finder tended not to fog up so easy if you made the mistake of breathing on it. You generally tried to keep it as warm as possible.
Kolevatov was one of the better dressed of the party. He had a jacket on and that camera likely would have been under it. Nobody would have seen it. You only see it in the photo from after his body was pulled out of the river and it kind of falls to the side out of his jacket. Interesting that it's said that when he was told of the camera found on Kolevatov, that Yuri Yuden expressed surprise that it was there. Why would that surprise him? He wasn't there. He didn't know what anybody had on them. Or maybe he was there and never saw it. That's why it came as a surprise to him.
But surely any one attacking with a murderous intent wouldnt leave any evidence like a camera ! ?
He didn't know Kolevatov had it. Can't take it if you don't know it exists.
What about the other cameras and film ! ? And what about the Diaries ! ?
It was Semyon who was found with the camera. Just a point of detail.
Either way, they way you carry an old film camera in winter time is under your jacket. At night time, nobody would know it was there unless they searched you. Might not even notice the lump under the jacket in the day time.
About the camera Kolevatov had. I remember the days of old mechanical film cameras. They were worse than cell phones, very delicate. If you dropped it from waist height, it was junk. I'd be interested to see how badly damaged it was. That's why you generally wore the camera on a strap around your neck or with a wrist lanyard, so you couldn't drop it. And in the winter you typically wore it under your jacket to keep it a little bit warmer. The mechanism could freeze up solid, you could get condensation on the film. Advancing the film when very cold and dry caused static discharges that would ruin the film. If the camera was warm the view finder tended not to fog up so easy if you made the mistake of breathing on it. You generally tried to keep it as warm as possible.
Kolevatov was one of the better dressed of the party. He had a jacket on and that camera likely would have been under it. Nobody would have seen it. You only see it in the photo from after his body was pulled out of the river and it kind of falls to the side out of his jacket. Interesting that it's said that when he was told of the camera found on Kolevatov, that Yuri Yuden expressed surprise that it was there. Why would that surprise him? He wasn't there. He didn't know what anybody had on them. Or maybe he was there and never saw it. That's why it came as a surprise to him.
But surely any one attacking with a murderous intent wouldnt leave any evidence like a camera ! ?
He didn't know Kolevatov had it. Can't take it if you don't know it exists.
What about the other cameras and film ! ? And what about the Diaries ! ?
Why did O.J. Simpson leave the bloody gloves behind his own house? People do stupid things. And things that are stupid that they think are smart. If I take the cameras and the diaries they'll know somebody scooped up evidence and be suspicious, probably of me.... I'll just leave it all here. I could burn the tent, but that's the same thing.... Murders often out think themselves, sometimes they don't think at all, like OJ. They're just as panicked as the victims. Imagine you just killed somebody, you feel sick, remorse, fear, fear of getting caught, there's blood everywhere, blood all over you, panic, adrenaline... Think you could make a good decision at a time like that? Nobody else can either. Except maybe a serial killer who doesn't let any of that bother him.
If it was Yuden or somebody else, whether by accident or design, he was right to leave it all there. All it did was confuse us all to this day.
If you can find this information - you can provide the link for conformation))
I think you will find that the blackening of the skin due to severe frostbite doesnt require any warming period.
If you can find this information - you can provide the link for conformation))
I think you will find that the blackening of the skin due to severe frostbite doesnt require any warming period.
About the camera Kolevatov had. I remember the days of old mechanical film cameras. They were worse than cell phones, very delicate. If you dropped it from waist height, it was junk. I'd be interested to see how badly damaged it was. That's why you generally wore the camera on a strap around your neck or with a wrist lanyard, so you couldn't drop it. And in the winter you typically wore it under your jacket to keep it a little bit warmer. The mechanism could freeze up solid, you could get condensation on the film. Advancing the film when very cold and dry caused static discharges that would ruin the film. If the camera was warm the view finder tended not to fog up so easy if you made the mistake of breathing on it. You generally tried to keep it as warm as possible.Why do you think Yuri Yudin came back and killed them and why do you think he was surprised that Kolevatov had a camera? I mean, maybe Kolevatov didn't have a camera, because he refused to write in the diary and supposedly, didn't like getting his picture taken and was an extremely private guy. My theory was, maybe, he took the camera off of Krivonoschenko when they found him dead at the same time they took his pants or whatever it was that was taken off his and Doroschenko's bodies, and perhaps, that's why Yuri Yudin was surprised that a camera was found on him. I guess I forgot a camera was found on him. All I remember was a camera being found on Zolataryov. But, I think it was you, I read a comment that thought Yuri Yuden came back and killed him, and I got a laugh about the picture of Yuri Y saying he looked like a complete psycho. LOL. But, I'm curious and want to know why you bet money on Yuri Y being the killer and other than for purely psychopathic reasons, what would be the reasons for going back and killing them? Such an interesting idea, and I'm curious. Thank you.
Kolevatov was one of the better dressed of the party. He had a jacket on and that camera likely would have been under it. Nobody would have seen it. You only see it in the photo from after his body was pulled out of the river and it kind of falls to the side out of his jacket. Interesting that it's said that when he was told of the camera found on Kolevatov, that Yuri Yuden expressed surprise that it was there. Why would that surprise him? He wasn't there. He didn't know what anybody had on them. Or maybe he was there and never saw it. That's why it came as a surprise to him.
I believe the main issue with any of the murder theories I have seen to date is the lack of motive.
It wasnt much of a tree though. Hardly the sort of tree you could stay up for long and also not of such an height that any one climbing a few metres up it could see that far. They couldnt hide up that tree and they wouldnt have had a good view from that tree.
It wasnt much of a tree though. Hardly the sort of tree you could stay up for long and also not of such an height that any one climbing a few metres up it could see that far. They couldnt hide up that tree and they wouldnt have had a good view from that tree.
True. But in a desperate attempt to escape their attackers, it makes perfect sense that they tried to climb the tree. That also explains the injuries to their hands, which must have been sustained as a result of using their bare hands to try to get hold of the trunk. It is also likely that the injuries were made worse by the attackers' dragging their victims down.
The question of course arises why the attackers did not simply shoot them and all of the others.
The answer is that our picture of murder is largely derived from Western films where killers mostly use firearms. In the real world, very resourceful killers try to camouflage the act so as to make it look like an accident or a natural death.
If, as likely, armed attackers entered the tent and forced the nine victims out in the cold they did so because they wanted to give the impression that the Dyatlov group died as a result of freezing after a voluntary exit from their tent. The fact that many people still believe in the official version, is testimony to the intelligence of the attackers. The killers - and those who orchestrated the murder of the nine - had however misjudged the weather. The victims did not perish as soon as planned, so the attacking squad had to hunt them down and ensure that they died. That also explains why Dubinina, Zolotaryov, Kolevatov and Thibeaux-Brignolle had the most severe injuries. They were better dressed than the others, and might have survived and even escaped. The attackers therefore had to expedite their mission by using force, and all their injuries are consistent with physical force by human attackers.
The question still remains who these unknown killers were. There are only two possibilities, the way I see it.
One is local people (Mansi) who were evidently present in the area. Svetlana Oss believes in this theory, and in her book "Don't Go There" she does a very admirable job in dispelling the theories of natural causes - she demonstrates well how the nine were likely murdered. However, she fails to substantiate the claim that the Mansi were responsible. She only has hearsay evidence to offer and the book does not prove that the locals were responsible - it is a possibility but no more.
The other possibility is a more sinister one.
Personally I feel that the most important thing is to establish the fact that the nine were murdered. Those who were responsible are no longer among us, and whatever the motive - superstitions, offended feelings or perceived security reasons if the students witnessed something they were not supposed to know - the murders were the unfortunate result of suspicions and a profound lack of human understanding. The decision to kill the nine was a terrible mistake, since these young people were unlikely to harm anyone or to divulge any state secrets, but in a world where people are sometimes killed as a preventive measure such things happen - and these acts are often camouflaged as "accidents" or "natural deaths." To force the victims out from the tent after having ensured that they are improperly dressed, and then let the cold weather do the "job," makes perfect sense when the intent is to make the whole thing seem like an unfortunate accident.
An analytic approach to the Dyatlov pass tragedy will strongly suggest that this is precisely what happened on February 2, 1959.
One thing about the murder theory that I think needs to be explained is this:
Why did the attackers leave Kolevatov alive? His injuries don’t seem to be any where near as significant as the other rav 4.
Also, why use such primitive methods to take them out? I don’t think anyone could say that they used primitive methods to remove suspicion of murder.
Regards
Star man
If the attackers/government were suspicious of Semyon making a break over the border and planned to use the group as a decoy, perhaps they left him to die because they knew he had sorrow and was trying to find his son, Sasha? They knew he was going to die, and were exhausted interrogating all of the other members. The attackers may have personally known Semyon and that is why he was not beaten as severely but nevertheless left to die. If Semyon worked as a tour guide he knew much more about trails to the border than any other citizen.
Are we certain that these hikers tried to climb the tree? Or is it possible some were strung up on the tree breaking the branches, not as a noose, but perhaps their hands tied around pulled up to branches so the attackers could question them? Is it possible the fire was made by the attackers and the burning of the hands and feet occurred during interrogation? That might account for the one person who bit his finger joint cartilage off and it was found in his mouth. The groups were separated by ravine and cedar trees to see if any of the hikers would fess up to planning to leave the country? that is usually the tactic most police use is to split the group up to see if someone would cave that normally would not with much support, but alone or less hikers, they might talk. Splitting the group up also is used to get the whole story straight, if they are all telling the same story as the other group.
There was no knife found by the cedar tree, so maybe the attackers used the knife and kept it, making the one mistake of covering up the murder? Trying to gather the cedar branches for fire wood does not make sense as high as they were 5 m high or 15 feet? As the search party said, there were other branches around dry that would be better for fire. Also, the bodies were found like 9 feet from the fire? Why so far away? It makes no sense if they had the fire for over an hour that they were not able to keep it going?
Is it also possible the big cedar branch was cut off to use as a weapon on the hikers?
... or that kolevatov was the murderer. He managed to split the group to make it easier. Only his rescue party (cia, kgb, yeti, alien or whatever) missed the spot and didn’t find him (low confidence)
One thing about the murder theory that I think needs to be explained is this:
Why did the attackers leave Kolevatov alive? His injuries don’t seem to be any where near as significant as the other rav 4.
Also, why use such primitive methods to take them out? I don’t think anyone could say that they used primitive methods to remove
The answer to those questions could be simple. They were not attacked by other Humans.
Dear Starman: My take is that Semyon joined the group with a plan in place to cross the border into Finland from Ortolem. He would have to have had assistance from people who would help him go the 1,772 miles to the Finnish border. It is possible some of the other male hikers knew or were told of his plan and were mulling around whether they should go too. I don't think either of the girls knew. This may have been what the guys were quarreling about.
Regardless, someone in the government found out and they are the ones who attacked. Perhaps split the group up with some at the cedar and the others at the ravine. As far as the ravine goes and the hikers found there, after reviewing their fatal blows, I do not believe they could have walked to the ravine in the condition they were in, the final beating had to take place there for these 4.
They may have been told by the guards to go and dig a den because you may have to stay in it until we can figure out who is helping the escape. Then when they finished with the others, they saw they had built the den and decided to make it their grave.
All of this is based on the fact that Semyon wanted to be called Sasha and disguise his birthday, plus him being a tour guide, he would have known the easiest route to Finland border.
The ravine 4 I think had to be killed in that den, they could not have done that work in the condition they were in.
One thing about the murder theory that I think needs to be explained is this:
Why did the attackers leave Kolevatov alive? His injuries don’t seem to be any where near as significant as the other rav 4.
Also, why use such primitive methods to take them out? I don’t think anyone could say that they used primitive methods to remove suspicion of murder.
Regards
Star man
Yes they may well have climbed the Tree to escape from something. Something that was scaring the living daylights out of them. Not a group of murderers or murderer.
Yes they may well have climbed the Tree to escape from something. Something that was scaring the living daylights out of them. Not a group of murderers or murderer.
When people are so scared that they desperately try to climb a tree with their bare hands, destroying their hands in the attempt to escape, the probability is high that what scared them were other human beings who pursued them.
Yes they may well have climbed the Tree to escape from something. Something that was scaring the living daylights out of them. Not a group of murderers or murderer.
When people are so scared that they desperately try to climb a tree with their bare hands, destroying their hands in the attempt to escape, the probability is high that what scared them were other human beings who pursued them.
Yes they may well have climbed the Tree to escape from something. Something that was scaring the living daylights out of them. Not a group of murderers or murderer.
When people are so scared that they desperately try to climb a tree with their bare hands, destroying their hands in the attempt to escape, the probability is high that what scared them were other human beings who pursued them.
Highly Debatable. More likely to be a wild animal that would scare people to such an extent or some other Being or unknown force.
Yes they may well have climbed the Tree to escape from something. Something that was scaring the living daylights out of them. Not a group of murderers or murderer.
When people are so scared that they desperately try to climb a tree with their bare hands, destroying their hands in the attempt to escape, the probability is high that what scared them were other human beings who pursued them.
Well there were scratch marks of sorts on some of the bodies ! ? And the crush injuries.
Highly Debatable. More likely to be a wild animal that would scare people to such an extent or some other Being or unknown force.
1) The unknown stranger in the photo is not dressed in army way like a Mansi Hunter and definitely looks much more like one of the men back at Settlement 41. And remember that there were aa lot more buildings there than we saw men being photographed. The same for Ivdel.Are you reffering to photo no17 of Thibeaux-Brignolle's camera ?
I believe the main issue with any of the murder theories I have seen to date is the lack of motive.
For common criminals? Yes. For escaped convict? Definitely. For anyone who wants to do their best to confuse the investigation? Probably not.
Lack of motive AND lack of evidence for anyone else on the mountain that night. Also, the fact that money, food, alcohol, skis and clothing were left behind in the tent. Those would be valuable to a lot of would-be attackers out there in the middle of the winter.
Or, those injuries are from a fight within in the group as things got desperate around the fire and some disagreement broke out. Or relating back to the decision to abandon the tent. It is interesting that Igor, Rustem and Zina were found more than 150 meters apart from each if they were going back to the tent. It's as if they went separately.
What you don`t need for a natural theory, is what you utmost need for a murder one - motive. By saying "natural" I am not completely excluding even a quarrel among them, which went wrong. No matter how unlikely it sounds. Of course, it is impossible to say why it may have happened, but it seem like you need little less "motive" compared to a deliberate or - unplanned/taken out by mistake - homicide version of the events.We don't need to know the motive to determine if its murder or not. There are a lot of killings where the motive is not clear and the perpetrator is not known but it is clearly murder. There could have been a motive that none of the Dyatlov party understood because it could have been so insignificant that it never crossed their mind that the insignificant action would prompt someone to commit mass murder. All you need is someone with the means, and a fragile ego or on the other hand it could have been nothing but a case of a mistaken identity.
It’s possible it all started in the tent yes and you are right that there is no time stamp so they may have left in smaller groups. But why would they do that? Also if someone had forced the others to leave it’s unlikely that they themselves would leave the tent poorly dressed and without their boots. I don’t think anyone of them had all of their outdoor gear on?
The bodies on the slope could have been going either up or down. But one thing that is unlikely to be coincidental is that they were all in a straight line. This indicates that they were likely to all have started from the same place and were heading in the same direction. So they were probably travelling together.
It seems that almost any theory can only be based on the most probable events. Unless it’s possible to piece together more solid clues and evidence .
I believe the main issue with any of the murder theories I have seen to date is the lack of motive. Most of you may know I have issues with all theories, but I also see the possibilities in each as well. I am most definitely not married to any one theory. That being said, I believe the most compelling aspects of any murder theory at its foundation are the injuries. I wont go through them all but lets take three individuals that were NOT subject to months of rotting in a creek...... Igor, Rustem, and Zina. These three individuals were literally frozen in place and intact.
Igor
1. minor abrasions on the forehead
2. minor abrasions on the upper eyelids
3. brown-red abrasions above the left eyebrow
4. minor abrasions on the left cheek
5. brown-red abrasions on both cheeks
6. dried blood on lips
12. purple-gray discoloration on back side of the right hand
13. metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone.
14. left hand is brown-purple color with brownish-red bruises
15. superficial wounds on the 2nd and 5th finger on the left hand
16. skin wound in the palmar surface of the 2nd 5th finger of left hand
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Igor-Dyatlov-autopsy-report.png)
Now, when I look at all this its only logical to assume Igor was fighting someone or 'something'. Even if you were to explain some of them away as injuries having acquired somehow other then fighting, Im not convinced you can eliminate all of them i.e if even ONE of them was caused by foul play...... you have a problem.
Please take note of this injury in particular.
13. metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone.
Being a former Marine and a little rambunctious in a past life I can attest many of the above injuries are consistent with...... fighting.
Rustem
1. hemorrhages in the temporalis muscles
2. minor brownish red abrasions on the forehead
3. two scratches are 1.5 cm long at the distance of 0.3 cm between them
4. brownish red bruise on the upper eyelid of the right eye with hemorrhage into the underlying tissues
5. traces of blood discharge from the nose
6. swelling and a lot of small abrasions on both sides of the face
7. bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands (bruised knuckles). Similar bruises are common in hand to hand fight
8.brown cherry bruises on the medial aspect of the left arm and left palm
9. swollen lips
10. bruises on the left tibia in dimensions at 2.5x1.5 cm (not shown on diagram)
11. epidermis is torn from the right forearm (not shown on diagram)
12. fracture of the frontal bone 6x0.1 cm located 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture (showing on separate skull trauma diagram without numbers)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Rustem-Slobodin-autopsy-report.png)
Literally the entire list of injuries of Rustem 'could' be attributed to..... fighting.
Please take note of this injury in particular.
7. bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands (bruised knuckles). Similar bruises are common in hand to hand fighting
(https://sks-files.com/Smileys/solosmileys/39.gif)
Zina
1. dark red abrasion on the right frontal eminence
2. pale gray area 3x2 cm above the right eyebrow
3. dark red abrasion on the upper eyelids
4. brown red graze on the bridge and tip of the nose
5. numerous abrasions on the left cheekbone
6. bruised skin on the right side of the face
7. brown-red abrasion on the back of both hands in the area of metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal joints
8. wound with jagged edges and missing skin on the back of the right hand at the base of the third finger
10. a long bright red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Zinaida-Kolmogorova-autopsy-report.png)
Again, the entire list other then #9 (frostbite) 'could' be attributed to... hand/hand combat. bat1
Note #10 in the image is misleading. The waist injury is isolated to the right side and can not be a result of "pulling a roped sled" around the waist which would be evenly distributed to both sides and the front.
10. a long bright red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton
Also note the severity of this injury in particular and the descriptions accuracy which 'should' be an indication of the rest of the injuries description accuracy.
8. wound with jagged edges and missing skin on the back of the right hand at the base of the third finger
(https://i.ibb.co/BTcgZkS/Dyatlov-group-colorized-by-Mikko-Kolkkanen-061.jpg)
Conclusion.
I dont know about you guys, but thats a whole lot of busted up heads, and knuckles with side order of blood to go around. Again, can some of thes injuris have been caused by climbing trees, falling on rocks etc... sure, but 'what if' even ONE of them wasn't? The who, what, when, where, and why I leave to you.
Yes I have thought along those lines as well. A lot of the injuries do look as if they could have been caused by physical contact with someone or something ie some kind of fight or defence maybe. And yet this is apparently being ruled out by the Authorities re the re opening of the Dyatlov Case.
I think when you group the bodies up according to injuries, you find three types. and you find the three types all generally in the same three places. A group that mostly just died of exposure, a group that looked like they were in a fist fight, and another group that was savagely beaten and tortured and then dumped into the river. It seems that there was some favoritism shown here. Some were let off easy or maybe got away before it all started. Some appeared to have escaped, the rest had the ever loving **** kicked out of them.
If I had to guess this was the work of just one or two men who couldn't keep track of everybody in the dark. Doroshenko and Krivonischenko probably slipped away and hid in the cedar until they felt it was safe after the commotion died down. Then they lit a fire. They obviously had no fear of being spotted by that time. They felt they were safe but knew they were dying. The rest were frog marched down to the river. Rustem Slobodin was the first to get it. Maybe he got mouthy, maybe he tried to fight. He got his skull cracked and was left to die. Down at the river the beatings began, and probably got more savage over time. At first it was just kicks to the ribs or rifle butts to the heads. But then it degraded into eyes being gouged out and tongues being cut off. It was already too late for most of them by that time but Dyatlov and Kolmogorova at some point fought their way out and slipped into the night. The killer continued to work over the rest of the group while Dyatlov and Kolmogorova hid. The killer finally finishes and leaves but seems to have no interest in finding the others which should be as easy as following the footprints in the snow. Maybe he decided to just wait at the tent an hour or two knowing they'll all die of exposure. All he has to do is just wait them out. Dyatlov and Kolmogorova return to the river to find their friends dead. By then, who knows how long they'd been out with next to no clothes on. They try to make a shelter and stay in it for a period of time, then notice the fire Doroshenko and Krivonischenko made. They make their way over to them and find them dead probably some number of hours after it all began. They take some of their clothes and try to make it back to the tent. They never make it.
The motive never was robbery. It was very personal. Personal enough to want to make somebody gouge somebody's eyes out and break every bone in their body. The natives maybe. My money is on Yuri Yuden.
About the camera Kolevatov had. I remember the days of old mechanical film cameras. They were worse than cell phones, very delicate. If you dropped it from waist height, it was junk. I'd be interested to see how badly damaged it was. That's why you generally wore the camera on a strap around your neck or with a wrist lanyard, so you couldn't drop it. And in the winter you typically wore it under your jacket to keep it a little bit warmer. The mechanism could freeze up solid, you could get condensation on the film. Advancing the film when very cold and dry caused static discharges that would ruin the film. If the camera was warm the view finder tended not to fog up so easy if you made the mistake of breathing on it. You generally tried to keep it as warm as possible.
Kolevatov was one of the better dressed of the party. He had a jacket on and that camera likely would have been under it. Nobody would have seen it. You only see it in the photo from after his body was pulled out of the river and it kind of falls to the side out of his jacket. Interesting that it's said that when he was told of the camera found on Kolevatov, that Yuri Yuden expressed surprise that it was there. Why would that surprise him? He wasn't there. He didn't know what anybody had on them. Or maybe he was there and never saw it. That's why it came as a surprise to him.
Or, those injuries are from a fight within in the group as things got desperate around the fire and some disagreement broke out. Or relating back to the decision to abandon the tent. It is interesting that Igor, Rustem and Zina were found more than 150 meters apart from each if they were going back to the tent. It's as if they went separately.
I know this is not exactly scientific but based on the watches, we could use the time they stopped as time of death +/- 30 minutes. Which would lead us to believe that Igor died first before 5:30 AM while Slobodin left for the tent ~3 hours later at which point he was weakened by his injuries and the cold and died on the way there, maybe he left with Zina and he collapsed while she continued for some time but collapsed soon after and died.
Does anybody know if the Mansi, etc. served in the military?
There could be many reasons why the watches stopped when they did. But you raise a good point, and worth further Investigation.
There could be many reasons why the watches stopped when they did. But you raise a good point, and worth further Investigation.
In the article about the Chivruay Pass incident they came to the conclusion that once the body freezes the watches most often stop working within 15-30 minutes. That being said they also had one watch which survived several months in the cold on one of the bodies and was still working when they found the person. If they were self winding watches it could also indicate TOD if we knew how long the battery reserve was, it could have been a few hours to a couple of days but since they mostly stopped within a couple of hours from each other I can say its more likely they ceased working once the bodies froze.
Hello Sarapuk.
I was curious about whether the Mansi served in the military. If we were to assume that the hikers were killed by others, why not the Mansi? I believe most people would not know instinctively how to kill and the military would be one way to learn. I am just trying to glean as much information as I can from others, especially when I don't know the answer.
Reply #76
Oh and I forgot to add that the needles and dirt on the bodies are from the area where the bodies were first stored, most likely in one of the huts around the base of Hoi Eckwa until a decision was made what to do with them and where to finally transport them to set up the scene. The footprints on he mountain cannot be from any of the Dyatlov group. I defy any one here to even try walking 1500m in bare feet or socks on frozen ground and see how far you get! Completely impossible.
Oh and I forgot to add that the needles and dirt on the bodies are from the area where the bodies were first stored, most likely in one of the huts around the base of Hoi Eckwa until a decision was made what to do with them and where to finally transport them to set up the scene. The footprints on he mountain cannot be from any of the Dyatlov group. I defy any one here to even try walking 1500m in bare feet or socks on frozen ground and see how far you get! Completely impossible.
The Search Parties say otherwise. And there is still no motive for Murder by other Humans.
Oh and I forgot to add that the needles and dirt on the bodies are from the area where the bodies were first stored, most likely in one of the huts around the base of Hoi Eckwa until a decision was made what to do with them and where to finally transport them to set up the scene. The footprints on he mountain cannot be from any of the Dyatlov group. I defy any one here to even try walking 1500m in bare feet or socks on frozen ground and see how far you get! Completely impossible.
The Search Parties say otherwise. And there is still no motive for Murder by other Humans.
1. When people are forced out in the cold at gunpoint, there is no choice. We have every reason to believe that this is what happened to the nine Dyatlov pass victims.
2. A proper criminal investigation does not start with the question "is there an obvious motive?" A proper criminal investigation starts with a thorough forensic analysis of the available evidence, in order to establish whether or not a criminal act has taken place.
3. In this case, all the available evidence confirms that the Dyatlov pass tragedy was an intelligently planned, brilliantly executed mission which was carefully orchestrated to make it look like an accident. The injuries found in the victims can all be explained by human attack, and moreover they can only be explained by human attack by skilled murderers who knew what they were doing. This fact is demonstrable, and the next question is who did it and why. It may be that we shall never know with certainty, and even if there is reason to believe that the Soviet state security organs were responsible it cannot be strictly proven until someone speaks. However, it is certain that the nine students were murdered, and it is certain that the killers had one objective: To make sure that the nine were eliminated.
4. Only the fact that there was an unexpected rise in temperature during the night of February 2, 1959, prevented this carefully planned assasination from being the perfect mission. If the temperature had been -30C instead of around -15C, the nine hikers would have expired fast as planned.
QUOTE " Well who is we ! ? Iam sure many Investigators dont believe that the Dyatlov Group were forced from their Tent by other people with guns.
The original Investigation left a lot to be desired.
You state that all the available Evidence confirms that the Dyatlov Pass tragedy was an intelligently planned brilliantly executed mission. Can you show one piece of Evidence to back up that statement ! ?
And can you show the Evidence of an unexpected rise of Temperature on the night of February 2 1959 ! ?
The group were never in the tent up on the mountain. Their captors and murderers removed it from the cedar area where we see the birch pad for the tent and set it up. This is why it is so neat inside and missing certain items. Maybe some of the group were still alive and able to watch from the cedar what was going on.
In the end there are 3 groups of bodies deliberately set up the way they are. This is a clue to when and why they were murdered.
Most were killed up on Hoi Eckwa - Lyuda, Zolotaryov, Tibo and Kolevatov. This was because they were caught red handed defying mansi custom about no women up on the mountain and maybe trying to rifle through ceremonial gifts to the supreme god. I believe the group knew about the golden idol and this explains their presence up on Hoi Eckwa.
Igor and Rustem were next to die probably returning to camp on 29/1 when they heard Zina screaming. Zina and the two Yuris had been left at camp on 29/1 (see her diary entry) while the others explored a track south of the Auspiya - we are waiting for the others to return.
These three were first attacked, maybe the Yuris captured, then killed in a fight with the natives, Zina captured alive. Igor and Rustem returning down the mountain.
Now the group is split and in 3 groups, easy to be taken care of by a small group of attackers and after the group on the Auspiya camp area they followed tracks came acoss Igor and Rustem, took care of them then went up Hoi Eckwa and came across the rest.
The question is had the group already found the golden idol and sent it back with Yudin. Did Yudin know of the groups quest but they had been warned at the Ushma settlement and he got cold feet and was worried about the consequences so left after the 2nd north or does the lostday account for the trip up Hoi Eckwa and the groups deaths not only for being on the mountain with a woman but for stealing the golden idol?
Hence the severity of injuries in members in the ravine, at the cedar and laid out supposedly returning to the tent.
The mansi transported the group there and set the scene. Authorities know the assailants, Kurikov blackmailed officials with info he had hence the sudden release of the Bahtiyarovs and subsequent coverup.
This is only a condensed version of what I think transpired.