August 14, 2022, 11:49:20 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: A problem with homicide theories  (Read 10352 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

May 30, 2022, 06:27:20 AM
Reply #90
Offline

Игорь Б.


К моменту появления в лесу поисковиков в конце февраля снег в ручье был вровень с берегами. Это видно на фотографии:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=56231

Поэтому поисковики тогда ничего не заподозрили. А толщина снега вровень с берегами - это 4 метра:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=84600

А наметённый ветром снег очень плотный и тяжёлый:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=105949
The answers to all the questions related to the death of Dyatlov group:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=110407
Evidence of the death of the Dyatlov group from the Wolverine chemical weapon:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=69286
 

May 31, 2022, 03:42:45 PM
Reply #91
Offline

Charles


Dear Jean-Daniel


So Lyuda would have been crushed by an amount of snow able to break 14 of her ribs and then she would have been able to get out of this mountain of snow by herself and walk to the stream where to die on her knees...

I totally agree with you, the snow collapse theory is just absurd.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

May 31, 2022, 04:02:44 PM
Reply #92
Offline

Ziljoe


Dear Jean-Daniel


So Lyuda would have been crushed by an amount of snow able to break 14 of her ribs and then she would have been able to get out of this mountain of snow by herself and walk to the stream where to die on her knees...

I totally agree with you, the snow collapse theory is just absurd.

I  think you may misunderstand the the snow collapse theory.

Anyway. I'll translate some of Igor b. :

The second broadcast of KP radio with forensic expert Tumanov on October 18.
"Interview with forensic expert Eduard Tumanov".
http://www.kp.ru/radio/program/4951/
Continued.

23 min. 49 sec.

Could these rib fractures... skull fractures... have been caused by falling snow masses?

No, we completely exclude snow. The snow would completely evenly compress the entire body. And here we see the action of objects with a limited surface.

It is clear even to a non-specialist that when a heavy snow mass falls on a lying person, the most vulnerable bones of the skeleton, the ribs, will break first of all, and not the much stronger bones of the arms, legs or head:
Quote
To a greater extent, the ribs are damaged (more often IV-VII, as less protected).
Quote
Characteristic of chest compression is the multiplicity of rib fractures, often along several lines at once.
If the external impact exceeds the resistance of the chest, then fractures of the ribs occur at points with the greatest curvature and less strength.http://www.medical-enc.ru/sudmed/povrezhde...oy-kletki.shtml

Thibaut's depressed skull fracture is due to a stone in a stream under the snow, about which his head was crushed like an anvil. Without this stone, the skull fracture would not have happened, like the others in the stream.

Statistics show that mainly floating fractures are formed during collapses and transport injuries:
Quote
 

June 01, 2022, 06:00:18 AM
Reply #93
Offline

Charles


First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

June 01, 2022, 10:03:42 AM
Reply #94
Offline

Ziljoe


No, we completely exclude snow..

Good !!!



 Below is copied from Igor b's thread. It gives more context.. Tumanov changes his view point.

---------------------------------------------------------



Forensic expert Tumanov, who previously categorically argued that the fractures of the ribs of Dubinina and Zolotarev cannot be the result of snow falling:
Quote
No, we completely exclude snow.http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&sho...ost&p=60669

apparently read the forums:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&sho...ost&p=64056
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&sho...ost&p=64055
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&sho...ost&p=68377

and now I agree, that fractures arose as a result of compression by snow during the collapse of a snow shelter:
Quote
Some of those who were found near the stream, when they were digging shelter in the snow, snow collapsed ...
Those fractures at Dubinina, Zolotarev along one line, without signs of external damage - there are no abrasions or bruises, they can indicate precisely compression by a mass of snow.https://youtu.be/QPpGQwprYP4?t=13m34s

Well, it's never too late to acquire professional knowledge, but it was better to do it before previous media interviews.

PS There was old packed snow in the stream, wet due to warming , and at the time of the incident, a cubic meter of it had a mass of about 500 kg
 

June 02, 2022, 03:42:35 PM
Reply #95
Offline

Jean Daniel Reuss




                    Reply #94
.....................................................
No, we completely exclude snow.http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&sho...ost&p=60669
apparently read the forums:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&sho...ost&p=64056
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&sho...ost&p=64055
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&sho...ost&p=68377
......................................................

It is likely that you want to provide the explanations that can be found on one of the 112 web pages of the forum
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133
also referred to as: "The tragedy at Dyatlov Pass, Memories. Testimonies. Chronicle."

Unfortunately for me, who thanks to machine translation software (DeepL, Yandex translate....) deciphers Russian posts very difficultly and most of all very slowly, the format of your URL address (which seems abbreviated) is unusable in practice.

On the other hand I have no difficulty in finding the posts that are indicated in a complete and precise way by Igor B. !
For example :
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=56231
guides us to post #198 by Igor B. on page 10 (out of 112) of this forum, where we see photos of the Den-Ravine area taken at the end of February or beginning of March 1959.

***************************************************************************

                    Reply #94
..................................
 Tumanov changes his view point.
.........................................
[unusable URL address]
[https://youtu.be/QPpGQwprYP4?t=13m34s  ----> video not available in France]
..................................................
Well, it's never too late to acquire professional knowledge, but it was better to do it before previous media interviews.
......................................................


For me, the self-proclaimed advocate of the TOKEB theory (Tumanov - Oestmoen - Kandr - EBE - BottledBrunette), it is clear that the explanation of the DPI by a simple criminal attack did not please the Soviet power (Krushchev) in 1959, and does not please the present Russian power (Putin) either.

(Note first that TOKEB obviously disagrees with most of the arguments, despite their numerous and detailed nature, supported by Igor B., which can be read on the 112 pages of http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133

En 1959 :
Andrey Kirilenko (1st Secretary of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the CPSU) summoned Korotaev(1936-2012) to the investigator's office and unequivocally explained:
"Khrushchev is notified that the students froze to death and the case must be closed."


Moreover, I consider that Korotaev and Ivanov did not lie when they described the surprise attack of trained and determined killers as an overwhelming force which the hikers were unable to overcome."

Similarly in the years 2018 -2020 Eduard Tumanov "under the watchful eye of the Kremlin custodians of the Dyatlov Group's death", was warned by Putin's collaborators to stop talking in public or on television about anything that might suggest criminal explanations of the DPI.
 
Obviously, like Korotaev and Ivanov before him, Eduard Tumanov preferred to avoid serious trouble in his life and chose to publicly state that he had changed his view point.

About Tumanov's forced change, you can read Aleks Kandr's argument on his website (but it is long !) :
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-3

and a discussion on the same subject on taina.li :
https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=14852.0

Personally, I approve of Tumanov not wanting to ruin his life by telling the truth about the 9 murders, which is an old case that is relatively unimportant compared to recent events like the war in Ukraine !

As Per Inge Oestmoen skilfully expresses it "bodies do not lie", and what interests me now are the "WHO" and "WHY" questions.

In France, in Russia and in every country in the world, government censorship exists. So how do you explain that on taina.li, the discusion launched by Aleks Kandr = Aleks K is blocked ?

https://taina.li/forum/index.php?board=112.0
https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=1002.0

          Blocked topic


Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 
The following users thanked this post: Per Inge Oestmoen

June 02, 2022, 04:53:42 PM
Reply #96
Offline

Игорь Б.


Unfortunately for me, who thanks to machine translation software (DeepL, Yandex translate....) deciphers Russian posts very difficultly and most of all very slowly
Установите Google translate в ваш браузер и переводите всю страницу прямо в браузере. Перевод всей страницы занимает 1 секунду.
Или установите браузер Brave (бесплатно). В нем Google translate уже установлен. Заодно забудете что такое реклама. Я пользуюсь в основном браузером Brave.

P.S.
Obviously, like Korotaev and Ivanov before him, Eduard Tumanov preferred to avoid serious trouble in his life and chose to publicly state that he had changed his view point.
Нет, Туманов потом опять стал утверждать, что это было убийство и пытки. Причем такие заявления он делал и на радио и на главном телеканале страны:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=106586
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=95337

В России можно говорить всё что угодно. Наказываются только клевета и оскорбления.
The answers to all the questions related to the death of Dyatlov group:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=110407
Evidence of the death of the Dyatlov group from the Wolverine chemical weapon:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=69286
 

June 02, 2022, 04:59:07 PM
Reply #97
Offline

Ziljoe


I have little belief or trust in any governments or organisations Jean Daniel Reuss.

However, the links I gave are from Igor b's 112 page hypothesis, theory or whatever you want to call it. He has done robust research and gives many examples and evidence of how he concludes much of the narrative of the DPI. I copied and pasted some of his ,to English for those that struggle to look at a website that can't translate to what I believe to be strong arguments in the interpretations.

I believe the U tube video is down at the moment as it won't open for me but that might be due to current world events.

No idea about my URL address? I have no problems looking at any website, whether that be German , Italian , Dutch etc. Everyone has a point and a story, nor do I rule out , outsiders. I just think that Igor b has a more persuasive and researched theory to the events than the TOKEB theory.

I am happy to read the step by step events though. 
« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 05:37:10 PM by Ziljoe »
 

June 02, 2022, 05:28:50 PM
Reply #98
Offline

Ziljoe


Jean Daniel Reuss.look at Igor b links. Read it from their beginning. I was copying and pasting for others that may read the posts.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 05:36:29 PM by Ziljoe »
 

June 03, 2022, 12:44:12 PM
Reply #99
Offline

Charles


Dear Jean-Daniel,

it is clear that the explanation of the DPI by a simple criminal attack did not please the Soviet power (Krushchev) in 1959, and does not please the present Russian power (Putin) either.

it is not only a question of not pleasing such or such political power, it is a much wider reluctance that some anthropologists call "anathematization of violence". We are very attracted by the spectacle of violence but at the same time we are reluctant to admit that this violence can be imputed to us as a society and a member of this society, whether it is a village, a nation, or even of all mankind. We easily like the spectacle of violence inflicted to the "bad guys", but when it comes to the autodestruction of a society, when no bad guys are available due to the closure of the definition of society, then we are reluctant. We tend to perceive our own violence and our taste for the spectacle of violence as not harmful to us... statements like "he dug a pit, he fell into the pit he had dug" are absolutely disgusting to us. The scene in Shakespeare's play when Hamlet and Laertes fight in the pit :

"Hamlet leaps into the grave and starts grappling with Laertes."» (Hamlet act V, scene 1)

"He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate." (Psalm 7:15-16)

"THE STATUE Give me your hand.
DON JUAN There.
Thunder resounds and great lightning-bolts surround Don Juan; the earth opens and takes him; and he exits in the great flames burning where he has fallen." (Molière, Dom Juan, act IV, scene 5)

that kind of scene we can't bear... We prefer to put the blame on the snow... or whatever, any scapegoat, rather than to be forced to look inside the reality of violence, of our darkness.

Dyatlov and the hikers tempted the children and made them cry, they tempted Ognev and his gang*, Lyuda tempted Valya, even Zina asked Ognev's address, and they might have suffered other consequences... it is much more realistic than any "snowman theory", but much harder to imagine. Harder because we portray the absolute negativity of violence as a property of the bad ones and we never include ourselves in the bad ones.

In Dyatlov Pass Brutal, Bloody and Sadistic Tragedy (not politely "Incident"), no scapegoats were available, the case is like a closed room and we have to face our own evil, our own layers of shame, hatred and hidden violence...

Charles

* Ognev's outcasts met Dyatlov's tourists ... adult men forced to sleep in a dormitory meeting adult men sleeping in a tent just for the fun and with two girls they were unable to copulate with (just playing couples)... it is lighting a match near a gas tank. If somebody can't understand the explosive potential of such a configuration, then it is useless to explore any other hypothesis. First purge all the possibilities of inside violence, then go to the snowman... "Inside" meaning either the tent or the tent + district 41 given the remoteness of the scene.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2022, 03:05:45 PM by Charles »
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

June 04, 2022, 01:34:37 PM
Reply #100
Offline

Per Inge Oestmoen



For me, the self-proclaimed advocate of the TOKEB theory (Tumanov - Oestmoen - Kandr - EBE - BottledBrunette), it is clear that the explanation of the DPI by a simple criminal attack did not please the Soviet power (Krushchev) in 1959, and does not please the present Russian power (Putin) either.

(Note first that TOKEB obviously disagrees with most of the arguments, despite their numerous and detailed nature, supported by Igor B., which can be read on the 112 pages of http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133

En 1959 :
Andrey Kirilenko (1st Secretary of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the CPSU) summoned Korotaev(1936-2012) to the investigator's office and unequivocally explained:
"Khrushchev is notified that the students froze to death and the case must be closed."


Moreover, I consider that Korotaev and Ivanov did not lie when they described the surprise attack of trained and determined killers as an overwhelming force which the hikers were unable to overcome."

Similarly in the years 2018 -2020 Eduard Tumanov "under the watchful eye of the Kremlin custodians of the Dyatlov Group's death", was warned by Putin's collaborators to stop talking in public or on television about anything that might suggest criminal explanations of the DPI.
 
Obviously, like Korotaev and Ivanov before him, Eduard Tumanov preferred to avoid serious trouble in his life and chose to publicly state that he had changed his view point.

About Tumanov's forced change, you can read Aleks Kandr's argument on his website (but it is long !) :
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-3

and a discussion on the same subject on taina.li :
https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=14852.0

Personally, I approve of Tumanov not wanting to ruin his life by telling the truth about the 9 murders, which is an old case that is relatively unimportant compared to recent events like the war in Ukraine !

As Per Inge Oestmoen skilfully expresses it "bodies do not lie", and what interests me now are the "WHO" and "WHY" questions.

In France, in Russia and in every country in the world, government censorship exists. So how do you explain that on taina.li, the discusion launched by Aleks Kandr = Aleks K is blocked ?

https://taina.li/forum/index.php?board=112.0
https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=1002.0

          Blocked topic


Dear Jean Daniel Reuss:

I admire your reasoning, which is basically correct. The one detail where I must say that I think you are mistaken is when you think that the attackers did not have firearms.

The people who orchestrated the DPI knew very well that the nine students were resourceful people, loyal Soviet citizens. Therefore, they could not simply shoot them and put them in closed coffins or make them "disappear." That would have been too obvious.

However, the nine must have observed something there in the Urals which they were not supposed to know about. They observed something that would represent a threat to state security if one of these nine should ever tell a spouse, friend or child. For that reason, they all had to be eliminated

The solution was to force the students out from the tent, cut it so that the students could not find shelter if they returned, and chase them out in the cold improperly dressed in order to let the winter do the job. As I have described before, what foiled the plot was that there was a sudden rise in temperature on the night of February 2, 1959. The nearest weather stations recorded that, so this is evident.

Now, if the sudden rise in temperature had not taken place this killing mission would have been perfect. There was nothing primitive in this method. To force improperly dressed humans out in the cold is a brilliant method of silencing them. As it were, the students did not die as planned, and so they had to be hunted down and dispatched. Hence the injuries, many of which I recognize as typical of killing by trained close combat experts. The killers were no common criminals, that is for sure. They were special forces operators who were very aware that they must avoid bayonet cuts or bullet wounds, but it is certain that they were armed.

Further indications of the intelligent planning behind this mission was what happened to the Mansi. They were said to be under suspicion, some of them were interrogated. Then, a seamstress said that the tent was cut from the inside - with no scientific documentation and no explanation why that would contradict the fact that is was homicide. What happened? The Mansi were in the area, and must necessarily have learned about the death of the nine and possibly also observed the arrival of the killers. By interrogating some of them and then releasing them in the way it happened, the Mansi were given a stern warning that if they ever told anyone what they had observed a grim fate would befall them.

I can hardly imagine a more cruelly intelligent way of first performing a preventive killing, and then effectively silencing the witnesses who surely understood what had happened.

As if the above were not enough, when the investigators in 1959 were forced to close the case with a false conclusion it should be very clear that the government knew very well what this was all about. Now we have seen that the same happens even today. False conclusions about a non-existent avalanche are being dictated, and people who point to the physical impossibility of an avalanche and to the injuries of the nine victims being only consistent with human attack with lethal intent are being forced into retracting their views.

The nine unfortunate students were at the wrong place at the wrong time. That became their undoing. The wording "overwhelming force" is as close as Ivanov could express it without saying it openly.

Their killers were no common criminals, they were intelligent, highly trained and skillful professionals.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2022, 01:39:47 PM by Per Inge Oestmoen »
 

June 04, 2022, 01:37:38 PM
Reply #101
Offline

Per Inge Oestmoen


* Ognev's outcasts met Dyatlov's tourists ... adult men forced to sleep in a dormitory meeting adult men sleeping in a tent just for the fun and with two girls they were unable to copulate with (just playing couples)... it is lighting a match near a gas tank. If somebody can't understand the explosive potential of such a configuration, then it is useless to explore any other hypothesis. First purge all the possibilities of inside violence, then go to the snowman... "Inside" meaning either the tent or the tent + district 41 given the remoteness of the scene.


Neither in the diaries nor in any other way do we have any indication that the Dyatlov Pass Incident had anything with internal strife to do.

Everything tells us that the nine were killed in a well planned, skillful killing mission. The fact that some people today do not want to accept that, is in fact testimony to the intelligence behind the cruel mission. If the temperature had been some degrees lower, the nine would have frozen to death as was planned and the plot would have been perfect. Even the most select and formidable secret police force known to Man cannot control the natural forces.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2022, 01:53:46 PM by Per Inge Oestmoen »
 

June 04, 2022, 05:21:33 PM
Reply #102
Offline

Charles


Dear Per Inge Oestmoen,

* Ognev's outcasts met Dyatlov's tourists ... adult men forced to sleep in a dormitory meeting adult men sleeping in a tent just for the fun and with two girls they were unable to copulate with (just playing couples)... it is lighting a match near a gas tank. If somebody can't understand the explosive potential of such a configuration, then it is useless to explore any other hypothesis. First purge all the possibilities of inside violence, then go to the snowman... "Inside" meaning either the tent or the tent + district 41 given the remoteness of the scene.


Neither in the diaries nor in any other way do we have any indication that the Dyatlov Pass Incident had anything with internal strife to do.

As I have underlined it in a few of my comments, the diaries depict a very large amount of possible causes of internal strife : desire, envy, jealousy, frustration, sadness, injustice, punishment, revolt, etc.

The inability to recognize these signs is very characteristic of our time as the most common reaction to "school shootings" is denial and a carefully simulated misunderstanding. We deny the reality of bullying and then we fake surprise when the victim commits suicide and takes revenge killing other people with him... "No indication" we say... There were "no visible signs"... It is always the same story.

I am perfectly open to various theories in the DPMK (Dyatlov Pass Mass Killing), but it is not possible to pretend that there was no ground for internal strife or conflict inside Dyatlov's group and between Dyatlov's group and Ognev's gang. The ground was there, and the deadly outcome was there.

For me, the question is to decide wether it was an internal strife, of the same kind of school shootings, and therefore to decide who was triggered and decided he didn't care anymore, or it was a revenge taken by Ognev and his lads.

Everything tells us that the nine were killed in a well planned, skillful killing mission.


The mission did not need to be "skillful": a few pairs of skis, a gun and one bullet were enough.

Greetings

Charles
« Last Edit: June 05, 2022, 01:55:25 PM by Charles »
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

June 11, 2022, 01:43:16 PM
Reply #103
Offline

Jean Daniel Reuss


               Reply #100
......................
I must say that I think you are mistaken is when you think that the attackers did not have firearms.
......................

You may want to read my 5 recent posts in which I discuss the disadvantages of a firearm compared to a simple birch wood blunt object.
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1113.msg17761#msg17761
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=78.msg17757#msg17757
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=78.msg17747#msg17747
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1113.msg17746#msg17746
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1113.msg17737#msg17737


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
In my still under construction TOKEB theory, the  "O"  is used in gratitude to Oestmoen.

Indeed, we both agree with Askenadzi :

I...came to the conclusion that no spontaneous force could kill the nine healthy and fit guys. They could not just freeze in those conditions. ...... I don't know who or why they were murdered. But this seems to me the only explanation of their death.

But afterwards our theories are different. The  "K"  of TOKEB is in honour of Aleks Kandr who considers that the DPI is a humiliating defeat of the KGB which revealed itself unable to protect the 9 hikers.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
    •••  Apart from possible illegal activities such as criminal gold trafficking, the existence of  "something that would represent a threat to state security"  is a frankly extravagant assumption.

    •••  For 60 years the region has been particularly watched and scoured. And also, for 60 years, we can have an idea of the broad outlines of what might have been the secret Soviet research or realization in 1959 (nuclear bombs, submarines, aeroplanes, missiles, combat gas...etc).

There is no clue to suggest the presence of "something which they were not supposed to know about".

    •••  On the contrary, the region was far from being deserted but was often frequented by people who needed protection or control: foresters, loggers, geologists, prospectors, hunters, Russian tourists, illegal gold traffickers, Ivdellag escapees..........etc.

And all these people benefited from aerial surveillance from the Ivdellag airbase, which was well equipped (since it was able to send numerous intervention teams to the ground at short notice).

    •••  Even assuming that in 8 days, for some weird and unknown reason, the hikers had gone from being good citizens to individuals to be eliminated, neither the KGB nor any other official service would have failed to interrogate them methodically for days, and rather for weeks and months.

    •••  And in this case, investigations would have been carried out among the families and relatives of the hikers, which does not appear in the testimonies available to us.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
           Citation :
 the nine were killed in a well planned, skillful killing mission. 

The killing mission (and the typical disfiguration of the 2 corpses) was planned to be accomplished (more or less quickly) regardless of the weather conditions on the slope of Kholat Syakhl on 1 February.
Just as well :
Temperature = 0° C and Wind : 3 m/s - or sudden rise in temperature. (Example:  Igor B. , wolverine....).
Temperature = -50° C and Wind : 35 m/s.  (Example:  Lupos, Catabatic Wind - Acute Stress Reaction - Cold Air Drops...).

The temperature had no importance on the final result which was: not to leave any survivor.


           Citation :
 The Mansi were in the area,.......... possibly also observed the arrival of the killers.

It is unlikely that the Mansis could have seen the arrival of the killers by extraordinary chance.

Apart from participating in the search for the corpses, the Mansis played no direct role in the DPI. cf. Vladimir Sungorkin
from Komsomolskaya Pravda.


           Citation :
 I can hardly imagine a more cruelly intelligent...

The cold killing procedure by cold is well known and has been used for centuries in the Siberian regions.

This killing method, which is inexpensive, is not particularly cruel compared to other killings tortures. After the onset of painful physiological reactions, the victim gradually loses consciousness.
Sometimes the victim even feels a paradoxical sensation of warmth.
 

           Citation :
 ...I think you are mistaken is when you think that the attackers did not have firearms.

     Vietnamka
    But the main question of why the victims were not simply shot ?
the simplest answer is  - attackers didnt have [fire]weapons.


  1) - No staging
The attackers wanted to show that they had killed 9 exemplary Soviet citizens who were pampered by the Khrushchev government.   
Therefore the attackers did not stage anything, thinking that the investigators would normally and logically declare that the 9 hikers had been murdered.

But afterwards the Kremlin fooled those who orchestrated these assassinations by imposing idiotic official explanations i.e. :
 "overwhelming force, which the hikers were not able to overcome" in 1959,
later "Avalanche" in 2019.

  2) - No firearm
The exit from the tent without the axes and in the conditions of the attack: darkness, wind, without tearing off the tent, cannot be explained by the mere verbal threat of a firearm.   (in 1959: no powerful and transportable light was easily available).
 • It was not sufficient to shoot in the air.
 • It was not sufficient to explode large firecrackers: boom, boom....

 • It would have required an impressive visible warning gunshot. (i.e. a hole in the tent fabric or even in the leg of a hiker).

Another more promising approach to research was suggested by Mishka: the use of cunning, treachery and betrayal, like certain pirates at sea who disguise themselves as shipwrecked men in distress in order to gain control of a large ship.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

June 21, 2022, 01:28:13 PM
Reply #104
Offline

Per Inge Oestmoen



     Vietnamka
    But the main question of why the victims were not simply shot ?
the simplest answer is  - attackers didnt have [fire]weapons.


  1) - No staging
The attackers wanted to show that they had killed 9 exemplary Soviet citizens who were pampered by the Khrushchev government.   
Therefore the attackers did not stage anything, thinking that the investigators would normally and logically declare that the 9 hikers had been murdered.


Dear Jean Daniel Reuss:

I have some more comments:

- When I stated that the method of killing by cold is "cruelly intelligent" I did not mean the method of killing itself, but the careful calculation that evidently is behind when the killers force improperly dressed people out in the winter.

- There was a sudden, unexpected rise in temperature during the night of February 2, 1959. If that rise of temperature had not occurred, the killers would not have needed to use any additional physical force to hasten the demise of the nine. If the nine had frozen to death as planned, nobody would be able to know for sure that it was murder. 

- Since the Mansi lived in the area, they would more than likely have observed the bodies during the long period between the murder and the discovery of the bodies. Although we cannot say it with certainty, it is not unlikely that the Mansi also were aware of the presence of the killing squad. That is the only possible explanation why the Mansi were first interrogated, then released: It was a stern warning which needed no explicit wording. The Mansi understood, and have kept quiet to this day.

- The victims were not shot, simply because then it would be impossible to pretend that the Dyatlov Pass Incident was an accident. The people who planned the killing knew that the nine students were Soviet citizens whose loyalty was not in doubt and none of them had any record of dissidence or disagreement with the Soviet regime. To shoot them, or make them "disappear" would not be tolerated. However, if the students had witnessed some secret activity in the Urals they were still a potential threat to state security. Therefore they had to be killed, and it had to be done in such a way as to make it seem to be an accident. That is why they were not shot. Secret police forces generally try to kill by creating "natural deaths," "accidents" or "suicides." To just shoot them, would create political unrest and be a telltale sign that something really was going on in the Urals. During the Cold War, state secrets was something only a select few were supposed to know about.

- Only a sudden rise in temperature prevented the operation from being a complete success. The forceful killing of the students was necessary because the killers needed to fulfill their mission. The killers took great pains to make it look like an accident.

- Later, the Soviet and subsequent Russian authorities also took great pains to force or fool investigators and the public into believing that it was an accident. it was obvious back in 1959 that it could not have been an avalanche, and recently it has been scientifically and conclusively proven that there was no avalanche. The Soviet and Russian authorities naturally knew this all the time. Still, they maintained that the death of the nine was an accident, and they have maintained that it was caused by an avalanche even if they knew very well that it was impossible. There would be no need for such a great cover up unless the Soviet government themselves orchestrated and ordered the killing.

- As for the disadvantage of a firearm: It is obvious. If one wants to make a killing look like an accident, one must of course not use firearms.
 

June 23, 2022, 02:38:17 AM
Reply #105
Offline

Charles


« Last Edit: June 23, 2022, 02:44:35 AM by Charles »
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.