Theories Discussion > Murdered


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--- Quote from: sarapuk on December 10, 2020, 02:13:04 PM ---
--- Quote from: marieuk on December 09, 2020, 05:23:30 PM ---this is a very interesting point.  I'm still reading my way through the forum, but wondered if it was possible for an expert to tell if the rib fractures were caused by one event or multiple events?  At least if we knew for sure it would rule some things out I guess.  apologies in advance if this has already been asked/answered.

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The original Autopsies should have told us more, but unfortunately they leave a lot to be desired. We have photos and we have descriptions but its impossible to say for certain how the Rib injuries occurred just by looking at the photos and descriptions we were given.

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thanks sarapuk.  i'm too squeamish to look at the photos, but have read some bits of the autopsy reports. 

Per Inge Oestmoen:

--- Quote from: GKM on December 09, 2020, 04:18:31 PM ---Anthony Beaver is a historian and has written what is regarded among scholars as the preeminent book on the battle of Stalingrad. In 1942 as the Red Army was planning their counter offensive several companies of Siberian troops were called up and being trained very secretly. Their commander had them dig deep trenches and ordered the soldiers to lay in them after which T34 tanks were driven over them. Done as encouragement to make certain the soldiers dug their trench deep. This was called "ironing". I am certainly not suggesting there were tanks anywhere nearby, not by any means, but the 3 injuries that were fatal could have been caused by a pressure equal to the "ironing" method. Merely food for thought. A massive amount of pressure. But how this pressure occurred to those 3 souls I have no idea.

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Some important features of the injuries of Dubinina and Zolotaryov:

1. Their breast cages had suffered major force.

2. The broken ribs were not accompanied with injuries to their limbs.

From 1) and 2) we can infer this:

- The broken ribs could not have been caused by a fall, even if the slope had been sufficiently steep to allow a high impact. If there is a fall, the unfortunates do rarely if ever fall on their ribs with no damage to the face or limbs.

- The broken ribs could not have been caused by an avalanche, because there were demonstrably no traces of avalanches in the area and the terrain did not allow for any avalanche. Moreover, it would have been improbable that only the rib cages were damaged with no similar pressure damage to the face and limbs. So these crushed rib cages could not have been caused by avalanches.

- Any vehicle which were run over them would have severely damaged the limbs, and not only parts of the rib cages would have been affected. In addition, such heavy vehicles would have left deep tracks - whereas ski tracks made by the attackers would have been completely erased between February 2 and February 26.

Therefore, Dubinina and Zolotaryov must have been killed as a result of being subjected to very hard blows. Such blows might very well be delivered by trained close combat specialists who know that repeated blows with the elbow (or perhaps a rifle butt) to the rib cage will kill the victims by internal bleeding and/or cardiac arrest. The pattern of injury found in these two victims seem compatible with one or two attackers holding the victim upright in a fixed position while another attacker deliver the lethal blows. Be that as it may, there is nothing to indicate that they were run over by any form of vehicle.

Yes, I have to agree. You make some excellent points in all your post. I lean toward  murder but still cannot commit to it 100 percent. I cannot, however, see these "murders" as a government operation. Alas I can make no better argument.

Star man:
How can a trained expert in combat ensure that the all the ribs break at their weakest point using repeated blows.


Star man


--- Quote from: Star man ---How can a trained expert in combat ensure that the all the ribs break at their weakest point using repeated blows.
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I'm not sure if I understand it right, but I think that this is one of the basic problems with the injuries.  Dubinina and Zolotaryov both had more than one rib that was broken in two places.  As I understand it, this is called a flail chest because it leaves a section of ribs "floating free"--that are not connected to other ribs.  It seems that ribs only break this way in unusual circumstances.  Generally, the rib will break first at its weakest point.  After that, when force is applied, the rib will keep giving way at the broken place.  It seems, from what I've read here, that in order for a rib to break in two distinct points the pressure must be instantaneous,  exceedingly strong, and applied in a specific way.  Being hit by a car is one way this happens.  It can also happen if someone falls from a good height while they are unconscious.  (If they are conscious, they usually have broken limbs as they try to break their fall.)  There are a few good posts on here about flail chests; I'll try to find and link them.

ETA: Star man, were these your own calculations I'm thinking of?  Seems like I remember your doing some study about the chest injuries and various possibilities.


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