June 08, 2023, 08:23:22 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: how did they start the fire  (Read 5676 times)

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March 05, 2021, 11:39:20 AM
Reply #30
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Bear in mind they were starting a fire in the dead of night, no Moon, no lantern. They could be surrounded by dry firewood and wouldn't see it.

I guess once they started a fire they could create torches, but until then it would be pitch black.

They might have carried a bundle of wood from the tent to the cedar, it doesn't make any sense for there to be none up there.

I doubt it would have been pitch black. The Snow would have provided a backcloth of potential refected Light, even with a cloudy Sky.
DB
 

April 20, 2021, 08:23:59 AM
Reply #31

eurocentric

Guest
It would be very difficult with matches in the strong winds, and with only damp kindling available. Spent matches were found but these would obviously burn for only a short time and the gusting wind could blow them out.

The inventory lists 5 Brichete firelighters, which is a pocket-sized windproof device with a rope wick. A Rope Lighter, sometimes called Ship or Trench lighters. Unlike matches these will smoulder, performing better in the oxygen of the wind.

These were part of the repair kit, which Rustem was in charge of.
Sheet 205  https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-199-208?rbid=17743

I'm wondering if the pathologist didn't know what this device was and thought it a knife with a string attached, because it does look vaguely like a penknife or some kind of cutting tool on a string. Rustem's autopsy includes "In the pockets are a pack of matches with 48 match sticks, a pocket knife on a long string, a comb in a case, two pieces of string, a pencil, and a cotton sock."

Most references I could find to these include a cotton storage pouch, and I'm wondering if this, or a mistranslation, also explains the 'cotton sock'.

Youtube video:


Longer video showing a fire being made this way:

« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 11:17:45 AM by eurocentric »
 

April 20, 2021, 01:40:08 PM
Reply #32
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Zyd


They started fire with matches and evidence shows it took them a lot of matches to get it burning. The fire would have provided very little warmnth due to wind and was likely not burnjng largelt. This part of the reason the bodies were burnt, people had to get extremely close to feel any benefit (and their limbs may have been numb as well).
 

April 20, 2021, 01:50:51 PM
Reply #33
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Paf


Birtch bark ?

They could have gather some very easy, and it's burning like hell -like paper or cardboard depending on the thickness.
The wind gave them hard time, but for material they had everything they needed to succeed (and 2 of them had spare matches in their pocket at the end).
 

April 20, 2021, 02:37:26 PM
Reply #34
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Horsebite


Totally agree on the birch bark.  It will burn in nearly any condition and it appears there were plenty of birch trees nearby.  I've used it on a number of occasions to start fires in winter without anything other than matches.  Of course, that was usually during the day without strong wind, so not a direct comparison.  However, if there was bark handy, it should have been all they needed.   
 

May 18, 2021, 03:41:35 AM
Reply #35
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EBE


To me, the fire is one of the strangest details of the incident. It was the only thing they could have saved them. I absolutely agree with the birch bark, also birch wood is ideal as it burns even if wet. Green cedar and spruce branches are good as well, because the green needles contain resin and burn really well (but quickly). Also, based on Grigoriev's diary, there was a lot of dangling moss/lichen growing on cedar (and probably on other trees too), which is ideal for starting a fire as it burns exceptionally well.

What is difficult to understand is that the fire was not right next to the cedar tree trunk which would protect if from wind (if the wind was strong there). There was enough people for maintaining the fire, collecting the firewood and protecting the fire from wind. They had all means to make a really big fire, but they did not do it.. Something is missing here. Maybe they were not collaborating, arguing among themselves about what to do, or there is also a possibility that the group was split on the slope and both Juris were the only ones making the fire.
 

May 19, 2021, 01:11:40 AM
Reply #36
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EBE


There is also one more possibility - it was just a standard fire and not an emergency one. This creates a room for more possibilities and speculations - it seems that the tent was originally near the cedar and not on the slope, or the fire was made by other people (attackers). The more I think of it, the more plausible it looks to me..
 

May 22, 2021, 02:46:46 PM
Reply #37
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Manti


But then how did some of them burn their legs, head etc? Or did that happen on previous days? Then why is it not mentioned in any diary?


 

May 26, 2021, 07:04:52 AM
Reply #38
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EBE


That is a difficult question.

If the fire was a standard one, not an emergency one, the burned legs and hand can be explained by a violence from other members of the group or from some other people. The violence theory is explained by forensic expert Eduard Tumanov - from 17. minute of this video:

https://www.vbox7.com/play:9da88828ce

But there can be another explanations. The fire was in fact an emergency one, but the group was divided and the people who started the fire (two Juris) were not able to maintain it - there was wind, maybe they were not really used to make fire in such unfavorable conditions, etc..

Also, the "observation window" in the cedar: the branches were not cut, but broken (and they were quite thick). This also indicates some kind of emergency situation. As with most facts in the DPI, the evidence here is contradicting:).
 

May 31, 2021, 05:11:28 PM
Reply #39
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Manti


One more thing about the fire that's inexplicable to me.. it was under a tree. If it actually worked and turned into a decently sized campfire, there is a risk it would set the tree on fire. And you don't want to be under a burning tree... you also don't want your only source of warmth to be under it.


 

June 01, 2021, 12:51:50 AM
Reply #40
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EBE


One more thing about the fire that's inexplicable to me.. it was under a tree. If it actually worked and turned into a decently sized campfire, there is a risk it would set the tree on fire. And you don't want to be under a burning tree... you also don't want your only source of warmth to be under it.

My opinion is different: if I would be in emergency situation with strong wind and low temperatures, I would place the fire right next to the tree trunk, so that it is protected from the wind. Even setting the whole tree on fire would be OK, as it would provide enough heat for some time which would save their lives, and there was still a lot of firewood around (birches, small firs etc.). 

Also, from looking at the photos of the fire, it seems to me that there were no remains of cedar branches around. When you put green cedar branches to the fire, they burn well (too quickly), but what remains is the small unburnt twigs - they are usually scattered around the fire. This was not visible on any of the photos. This is another reason to believe that the fire under the cedar was not lit in emergency.
 

December 26, 2022, 12:50:47 PM
Reply #41
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ilahiyol


The fire was for an emergency. After all, most of the marchers were barefoot or in socks. The probable temperature was -10 degrees. We don't have a photograph of the fire. Photos of the possible fire were taken, but a secret hand prevented them from being shared with the public. In other words, we will not know the size of the fire and the answers to questions such as what they burned and where. They lit the fire and climbed into the cedar tree and watched the tent and its surroundings. They wanted to see if the unknown coercive force was still there. Because they hoped he would go. They had hopes to live. Yuri, the tallest and strongest, climbed the tree. He broke off large branches that blocked the view. This shows us that unknown coercive power is not a big deal. If it was something big, it wouldn't be necessary to break the big branches. And in order to be able to see something on the mountain at nightfall, that thing must be radiating light. Otherwise, you can't see that thing from 1 mile away. So the unknown coercive force is a small and luminous being. When Yuri couldn't see him, the group must have thought he had gone away. And they came up with a plan. The three of them would return to the tent. The four of them would dig a snow den. The other two Yurides would stay by the fire. Because they were the most naked and cold.
 

December 26, 2022, 03:44:33 PM
Reply #42
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tenne


But how did they light the fire, at night, with no flashlight, freezing hands? where did they find the tinder?

I may not have phrased my question properly, its how did they do it, without an axe to cut kindling etc,
 

December 26, 2022, 03:59:01 PM
Reply #43
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Manti


There was a charred handkerchief found and several pieces of clothing were never found. I'm thinking maybe they used clothes as a firestarter


 

December 26, 2022, 04:13:51 PM
Reply #44
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GlennM


There was a charred handkerchief found and several pieces of clothing were never found. I'm thinking maybe they used clothes as a firestarter

They would have spare clothes and...the mandolin was spared.

Did they all have fire at the cedar, or did a few have fire before trying for the tent from the den?
What about the materials,at the den, evidence for planned fire?


 

December 26, 2022, 04:15:36 PM
Reply #45
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Manti


The mandolin was in the cache in the other valley though


 

December 26, 2022, 09:16:08 PM
Reply #46
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ilahiyol


But how did they light the fire, at night, with no flashlight, freezing hands? where did they find the tinder?

I may not have phrased my question properly, its how did they do it, without an axe to cut kindling etc,
It wasn't cold enough to freeze hands and feet. This is evident from the corpses.... Except for one or two, none of them have frozen organs.... The temperature should be around -10 degrees on average
 

December 26, 2022, 09:47:10 PM
Reply #47
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GlennM


I find it curious that after making the fire, they did not bake rocks for additional warmth under their clothes.
 
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December 26, 2022, 11:34:45 PM
Reply #48
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Почемучка


In other words, we will not know the size of the fire and the answers to questions such as what they burned and where. They lit the fire and climbed into the cedar tree and watched the tent and its surroundings. They wanted to see if the unknown coercive force was still there. Because they hoped he would go. They had hopes to live. Yuri, the tallest and strongest, climbed the tree. He broke off large branches that blocked the view.

Почему никто не вспоминает классиков? Джека Лондона? Ведь это у него в рассказе "To Build a Fire" снег свалившийся с веток дерева - потушил с трудом разведенный костер.

Ну что же это за такое? Ведь эта история известна давно и Джека Лондона вряд ли кто-то не читал. Это замечательный автор. И в наших инструкциях для туристов - отдельно поясняется что надо ветки отряхивать от снега, если нужно костер именно под деревом устроить.
Посмотрите - под каким деревом устроен костер. Как нависают его ветки. Какие они заснеженные даже на поисковых фотографиях.
Исследователями уже давно доказано, что ничего там не видно с кедра на палатку. И если это в метель - то вообще ничего и совершено ничего. Даже если палатка бы горела синим пламенем, то в постоянно там имеющуюся флаговую метель - ничего не разглядеть.


Why does no one remember the classics? Jack London? After all, it was in his story "To Build a Fire" that snow fell from the branches of a tree - it put out a fire that had been made with difficulty.

Look - under what tree the fire is arranged. How its branches hang. How snowy they are even in search photographs.
Researchers have long proven that nothing is visible there from the cedar to the tent. And if it's in a snowstorm, then nothing at all and absolutely nothing. Even if the tent would burn with a blue flame, then in the constantly existing flag blizzard, nothing could be seen.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2022, 11:51:09 PM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 27, 2022, 07:43:11 AM
Reply #49
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tenne


I find it curious that after making the fire, they did not bake rocks for additional warmth under their clothes.

I have to agree although perhaps they had trouble finding rocks in the dark? I have seen, never done it, camping in the winter where they put the heated up rocks under their bedding and it was too warm to sleep, according to them.
 

December 27, 2022, 08:42:52 AM
Reply #50
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ilahiyol


In other words, we will not know the size of the fire and the answers to questions such as what they burned and where. They lit the fire and climbed into the cedar tree and watched the tent and its surroundings. They wanted to see if the unknown coercive force was still there. Because they hoped he would go. They had hopes to live. Yuri, the tallest and strongest, climbed the tree. He broke off large branches that blocked the view.

Почему никто не вспоминает классиков? Джека Лондона? Ведь это у него в рассказе "To Build a Fire" снег свалившийся с веток дерева - потушил с трудом разведенный костер.

Ну что же это за такое? Ведь эта история известна давно и Джека Лондона вряд ли кто-то не читал. Это замечательный автор. И в наших инструкциях для туристов - отдельно поясняется что надо ветки отряхивать от снега, если нужно костер именно под деревом устроить.
Посмотрите - под каким деревом устроен костер. Как нависают его ветки. Какие они заснеженные даже на поисковых фотографиях.
Исследователями уже давно доказано, что ничего там не видно с кедра на палатку. И если это в метель - то вообще ничего и совершено ничего. Даже если палатка бы горела синим пламенем, то в постоянно там имеющуюся флаговую метель - ничего не разглядеть.


Why does no one remember the classics? Jack London? After all, it was in his story "To Build a Fire" that snow fell from the branches of a tree - it put out a fire that had been made with difficulty.

Look - under what tree the fire is arranged. How its branches hang. How snowy they are even in search photographs.
Researchers have long proven that nothing is visible there from the cedar to the tent. And if it's in a snowstorm, then nothing at all and absolutely nothing. Even if the tent would burn with a blue flame, then in the constantly existing flag blizzard, nothing could be seen.
The mountain slope is clearly visible from the cedar. And there was no possible storm. Had it been, Dytlov Rustam and Zina would not have been able to return to the tent. It is not possible to go to an uphill tent 1 mile away in a storm. In the dark and in extreme cold, this is not possible. So the weather was calm and it was around -10 degrees. And if there was a storm, there would be no lantern above the tent. And the corpses found on the hillside would be thrown far away. But they remained as they died. So there was no storm.
 

December 27, 2022, 08:47:03 AM
Reply #51
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Почемучка


The mountain slope is clearly visible from the cedar. And there was no possible storm. Had it been, Dytlov Rustam and Zina would not have been able to return to the tent. It is not possible to go to an uphill tent 1 mile away in a storm. In the dark and in extreme cold, this is not possible. So the weather was calm and it was around -10 degrees. And if there was a storm, there would be no lantern above the tent. And the corpses found on the hillside would be thrown far away. But they remained as they died. So there was no storm.

Вы там были лично, что так заявляете? Даже с верхушки кедра там не особо видно. Флаговая метель там всегда бывает при ветре. При таком виде метели  - переносимый снег не даст ничего видеть. Это как густой туман над горою. Внизу у кедра может быть тихо и вроде не снежно, а на горе будут вихри враждебные. Я вот недавно с Борзенковым на эту тему видимости от кедра в сторону палатки выясняла. Ничего не видно. Костер под кедром был виден бы  с небольшого расстояния, не далее панорамного холма.
Вы так рассуждаете, потому что на карту местности даже не смотрели, чтоб понять какой там перепад высот.

You were there in person, what do you say? Even from the top of the cedar there is not particularly visible. The flag blizzard there always happens with the wind. With this type of blizzard, the portable snow will not allow you to see anything. It's like a thick fog over a mountain. At the bottom of the cedar it can be quiet and it seems not snowy, but on the mountain there will be hostile whirlwinds. I recently clarified with Borzenkov on this topic of visibility from the cedar towards the tent. I can not see anything. The fire under the cedar would have been visible from a short distance, no further than the panoramic hill.
You argue like this because you didn’t even look at the map of the area to understand what the elevation difference is there.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 08:55:18 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...