Theories Discussion > Katabatic wind
The wind plays its own music
WAB:
Richard has already answered you, but I will offer the alternative version of these answers …
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---Have also posted this on the other thread.
I have just read the whole theory. It's very interesting. I like that it provides an explanation for the flashlight being found on 10cm of snow on top of the tent. This has been a detail I have been thinking about. There are other possible explanations for this, but I think Richard's is a good one.
The theory kind of reminds me of the movie "The Day After Tomorrow", where cold air is drawn down from the upper Troposphere and freezes everything instantly. Obviously the movie is just fiction, but I suppose a significant downdraft of cold wind is credible on Kholat Syakhl.
--- End quote ---
This film does not correspond to natural processes. It is interesting as emotion, but it is not necessary for the analysis of the given event.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---Let's consider the tent. It was two tents sewn together and had many makeshift repairs, which means it probably wasn't fit for high winds. Also, if the temperature suddenly dropped to below -50C could this affect the material of the tent? I am not an expert of fabrics but most materials become embrittled at very low temperatures. I would not be surprised if the fabric became stiff and therefore the repairs more likely to fail.
--- End quote ---
1.The Temperature did not fall to-50С.
2.The tent Fabric is a canvas (cotton very rough fabric) which is good preserve at low temperatures. Even at-50С. One time we met New year in wood at such temperature, and our canvas tent has well remained.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---If the tent suddently failed due to high winds and low temperatures it would have put the team in a very dangerous position. I think what Richard is saying is that they didn't leave the safety of they tent. Instead, the tent was nor longer a safe place so they had to leave to find somewhere safer. It's a credible scenario.
--- End quote ---
Richard is rights in this sense. The tent allowed them to concentrate warmly locally, therefore they could spend night safely. And two its companions have in the same way spent some spending the night to previous year Igor Dyatlov be in Subpolar Ural Mountains when they waited when connection of their group which went from two different places was possible.
In case of powerful damage of tent they got to catastrophic position. In case of powerful damage of tent they got to catastrophic position. Especially if to consider that condition of clothes in which they have left tent. In such position they did not have more safe place, considering that without presence of skis they could not leave far in wood where there is fire wood suitable for the big fire.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---However, there are things that need to be considered in detail:
If the group had time to walk a mile down the slope, they should have had time to retrieve their footwear from the tent and some better outdoor gear? Slobodin at least had time to put one of his boots on, so why not the other. If the events happened suddenly, then their hands would not have been too frozen to put on their boots and collect essential equipment.
--- End quote ---
These are correct remarks, but it again leads to logic fork: Or they meaningly went to suicide or they were in a deranged condition when escape of tent. The first is absurdity. If I not correctly speak, I ask to prove the objections.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---Why did Semyon have his camera around his neck? Was it just a coincidence or was he taking photos just before the events began.
--- End quote ---
It is very simple question: he did not remove his camera after they have come on this camp.
There is real suspicion that it has given his camera to people in tent, and it still had only empty case from camera.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---Semyon and Thibo were probably on duty being betters dressed, or maybe they had gone outside to relieve themselves.
--- End quote ---
Yes, this very correct remark.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---The autopsy reports are odd. There are peculiarities around the cause of death of the group. Dorishenko's Edema, urine levels inconsistent with freezing to death.
--- End quote ---
Here it is impossible to consider all only in one plate. It is necessary to do it separately and very carefully.
1.At Doroshenko was not a hypostasis, and presence what that of a foamy liquid in a place about a mouth. It happens at defrosting of bodies, especially if is not clear as they transported also what substances could get after death on a body. In addition it is necessary to specify that in the same line of the description of a body coroner has written: «In the field of a red border of an upper lip there (is) a hemorrhage of dark red colour in the size 1,5 х 2 sm (0.6 х 0.8 in)» (c)
It is literal translation from Russian. In brackets for this purpose that it would be possible to understand my comments is easier taking into account semantics of Russian.
2.Urine Level is not indicator because medical researches on cold in a current of long time among actively moving groups do not exist. In our (Russian) forums medic doctors speak that after hit in cold diarrhea process begins, but they do not know (under not clear to me reasons) that after 3 or 4 days on frost return process when the human body keeps a moisture, for reduction of losses of heat begins. For those who participated in long winter independent expeditions, these supervision are not news.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---Coats unzipped, gloves in pockets.
--- End quote ---
In it too there is nothing surprising. People continued move (or fill catastrophic losses of heat from a cold) until muscles normally could work for them. If after stop (for weariness, for example) they could not force to work themselves further they any more did not pay attention to clothes condition. At them does not remain forces and muscle lost tone for work.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---The two Yuris had a fire going that burned for an estimated 1.5 hours. Why did they die?
--- End quote ---
It is result of thermal relaxation. That is reactions of brain to heat, after the big and difficult work on cold when the human starts feel heat first signs. If the human in such condition bring to warm premise, that he runs into non-existence. Such cases it was observed much when it was possible help freezing about cities and settlements.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---No toxicology report in case files? Why? Has just got lost over time?
--- End quote ---
If in case there was mention that alcohol what that the analysis was is not found out in them. Toxicology could find out even faster, than alcohol. Means toxins or was not or their level was small (for example from use of medicines). The reason for the detailed toxicological analysis is Anyway necessary. And it start think out already in field of 50 and more years later.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---The chest injuries - consistent with a sudden and fast impact, such as falling 5m to 7m.
--- End quote ---
Falling should be not obligatory strictly vertical. Also any another if they moved without stop there will suffice.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---Equivalent to about 2 to 2.7 tonnes of force.
--- End quote ---
It is incorrect estimation, because:
1.To start process of crises edges in this case it is necessary have initial effort approximately 1 ton (1000 kg of force, or 10000 N).
2.Process in this case is dynamic, therefore all depends on speed of increase of loading. Crises can begin even if this time will slightly exceed 2 milliseconds. And the further process depends only on stock of energy which is involved in this process.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM --- Could a collapsing snow den cause these injuries?
--- End quote ---
No. At least because in friable snow by which ravine walls in January and February are covered, it is impossible to dig a den. Besides, there are snow stocks is small on thickness.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM --- Luda had a smashed nose, and a large bruise on femur.
--- End quote ---
It is Zina, bat no Luda… grin1
The slope is slippery also exists set of stones available, therefore it would be surprising, if she did not have any damages and it would be in this place.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---Semyon had a large cut on the right side of his head, exposing the skull, ( the same side as his crushed ribs).
--- End quote ---
This is consequence of different factors which have converged on one party. On a head the cut, and result of decomposition of fabrics of the person is located not at thawing of the frozen body. Probably, you use not the most good translator.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---Injuries still seem more likely to be from a fall than collapsed snow den to me.
--- End quote ---
In it you are absolutely right. I tell it because itself professionally was engaged in biomechanics of shock processes on a body of the person.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---Why set up two separate areas: 1. The cedar and fire. 2. The ravine and snow den.
--- End quote ---
Probably because there is no fire wood for fire. Unique suitable fire wood was at cedar, and is even more exact - on the cedar itself. But them was very little. Other suitable fire wood was not in environment. Pass further to wood they could not, because the zone of deep snow began where it was impossible pass without skis.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---Why not build a fire near the snow den? In my mind one possible reason for doing this is that some of the team had already sustained significant injuries. Maybe they fell from the tree or fell in the ravine and therefore a shelter had to be built for their survival.
--- End quote ---
That it is possible to name shelter (den), is only few trunks of fir and one birch. It could be used only as time platform for resocks of bodies, for example, to fire place under cedar. Other utilitarian appointment to this device it is impossible find. Because it almost can serve nothing.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---I like the explanation for the injuries of Dorishenko. The armpit scratches etc. I too also think that the two Yuris got these either trying to climb up or down the cedar with frozen extremities. It seems the most likely place to get the minor scratches and abrasions.
--- End quote ---
Yes, of course, this very competent thought.
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---All in all I think it's an interesting theory, particularly as a reason for leaving the tent and the camp and it warrants further consideration.
I take my hat off to you for retracing their steps to gain a further insight into the incident.
--- End quote ---
I (with pleasure) join such estimation of activity Richard and Andreas.
WAB:
--- Quote from: hanno on February 24, 2019, 07:42:32 AM ---I see two weaknesses for the katabatic wind theory:
...........................
--- End quote ---
It is pity that I do not have today time for the answer more. If you not have smth agains, I answer next time
Star man:
Thank you Richard and thank you WAB for your responses to my post.
Again the details always seem to raise more questions.
Good luck on your trip WAB. Safe journey to you.
Are you going to try and take equipment to measure infrasound?
Richard, I like your theory. Maybe the topography and conditions there are not perfect to create katabatic winds easily. I still think it should be investigated further. Even some kind of freak localised storm may explain what happened. Basically, any natural event that could have caused severe damage to the tent.
It might be interesting to understand the forces on the tent due to various wind speeds. I will have a look at this when I get some time.
Regards
star man
sarapuk:
--- Quote from: Star man on February 23, 2019, 05:17:09 PM ---Have also posted this on the other thread.
Let's consider the tent. It was two tents sewn together and had many makeshift repairs, which means it probably wasn't fit for high winds. Also, if the temperature suddenly dropped to below -50C could this affect the material of the tent? I am not an expert of fabrics but most materials become embrittled at very low temperatures. I would not be surprised if the fabric became stiff and therefore the repairs more likely to fail.
If the tent suddently failed due to high winds and low temperatures it would have put the team in a very dangerous position. I think what Richard is saying is that they didn't leave the safety of they tent. Instead, the tent was nor longer a safe place so they had to leave to find somewhere safer. It's a credible scenario.
All in all I think it's an interesting theory, particularly as a reason for leaving the tent and the camp and it warrants further consideration.
But the Dyatlov Group were experienced outdoors people. They would have known that the area that they were going to was known for very strong winds. They were hardly likely to have risked their lives if they didnt think that the Tent was strong enough. If they left the Tent in those weather conditions and probably at night then its obvious that they thought the Tent wasnt a safe place to be.
--- End quote ---
sarapuk:
Iam surprised at the amount of words being used to try and make a case for a wind that is described as Katabatic. Katabatic sounds an impressive word. But that doesnt alter the fact that its just another wind. And all accounts show that wind is not a plausible explanation for the Dyatlov Group leaving the Tent and the subsequent events.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version