Theories Discussion > Altercation on the pass
Altercation on the pass
Jean Daniel Reuss:
--- Quote from: RidgeWatcher on July 12, 2020, 09:28:14 PM ---..........................................
I also think it was "things said" by the Dyatlov Ski Tourists that produced anger, hatred and not to mention a murderous rage.
..........................................
--- End quote ---
The control group from the University that skied west was left untouched...
It is Blinov's group. I have not found much information on the Blinov Group. I have only learned that :
• Blinov's group (which had 15 members ? ) stayed in Vizhay less time than Dyatlov's group.
• That Blinov, as the leader of the group, did not possess, or did not exhibit :
"a travel certificate and a trade union voucher, in which he addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, "to render all possible assistance" in providing the Blinov group .... ", unlike Dyatlov.
The attackers followed, silently the Dyatlov group.
• I also think the fresh tracks left by the hikers were deep and perfectly visible.
• So the tracks were very easy to follow to the tent by day and by night. The attackers could not lose the track and were therefore sure to find the tent by continuing to ski until the end of the track.
Attackers could not have gone unnoticed while traveling to the Dyatlov Pass area...
I tend to think that you misrepresent daily life in these faraway regions.
a) - There is a low population density in the taiga, which (often) is not a forbidden zone. People can move around, under certain conditions, without being closely watched: Mansi hunters (with a valid authorization to carry a hunting rifle), Russian hunters (with a valid authorization to carry a hunting rifle), loggers, longshoremen, foresters, geologists, prospectors, cartographers, practicing soldiers, tourists and walkers...
Under normal circumstances, there is no reason to be particularly concerned about the passage of an individual or group.
If, for one reason or another, someone wanted to be undetected by the loggers of Settlement 41, all they had to do was to drive a few kilometers away from the settlement (because on skis you can go anywhere) taking into account the direction of the wind to be sure not to be felt by the dogs.
b) - The usual work of the policemen, or KGB agents is done in heated offices with telephone, files, summons, interrogations, official reports...etc.
KGB agents cannot and will not waste their time skiing in the Taiga.
I believe this part of the investigation was hidden from the public view.
See :
https://dyatlovpass.com/korotaev
Kirilenko summoned Korotaev to the investigator's office and unequivocally explained :
"Khrushchev is notified that the students froze to death and the case must be closed."
According to my hypothesis N°2, the KGB quickly understood that the suspicions had to be focused, not on the Mansis, but on the ex-Zeks, which then directly interested Khrushchev.
Indeed, part of the internal social difficulties of the USSR between 1953 and 1964 were due to the very poor organisation of the mass release of prisoners from the Gulag camps, releases which had been wanted and imposed by Khrushchev himself.
Khrushchev's close collaborators were given instructions that could look like this:
- Obviously these were not words that were really uttered, but only to give a rudimentary idea of the situation. -
Khrushchev told his collaborators: " You can see that I have a lot of work and worries with President Einsenhower, Gomulka in Poland, Janos Kadar in Hungary, the Chechens, the Chinese...and many other very important and challenging problems."
So please get out of my way so that I can get rid of this little matter as quickly as possible.
Which was done as early as May 28, 1959...
What did Yuri Yudin see ?
Nothing important for researchers. He left his 9 friends at North-2 on January 28, 1959 when everything was fine, except for his own sciatica. Then he saw the coffins of his 9 dead friends again and he was very sad.
RidgeWatcher:
Khrushchev told his collaborators: " You can see that I have a lot of work and worries with President Einsenhower, Gomulka in Poland, Janos Kadar in Hungary, the Chechens, the Chinese...and many other very important and challenging problems. So please get out of my way so that I can get rid of this little matter as quickly as possible.
Again, Thank you for your Hypothesis #2. I can see this happening with surmounting problems at the time that all needed to be resolved.
So the problem that was, became the problem that was no longer, so problem solved and no longer is there a problem.
So somewhere around Vishay in early 1959 there lived a sociopath ex-Zek with equally dangerous friends. This sociopath even though angered into a rage by a piece of paper and a young person's loose tongue in January 1959 had to have a previous pattern of severe violence and even murder. Wouldn't the local police force and intelligence be able to narrow this down easily? Do you think the murderer and his friends might have been eliminated by the powers that be in that area? Isn't this what Krushchev would want to know, in the end?
Georgi:
--- Quote from: RidgeWatcher on July 12, 2020, 09:28:14 PM ---I am really enjoying your hypothesis. I do believe the attackers came from Vishay.
I also think it was "things said" by the Dyatlov Ski Tourists that produced anger, hatred and not to mention a murderous rage. The control group from the University that skied west was left untouched, even though they would have been easier to track, follow and attack in a timelier manor. The attackers followed, silently the Dyatlov group.
I have asked this before on this forum: During the investigation inhabitants of Settlement 41 and 2nd Northern would have been questioned. Attackers could not have gone unnoticed while traveling to the Dyatlov Pass area, especially along the rivers, while traveling through Settlement 41 or 2nd Northern (if anyone was there) they would have been noticed, animals would have barked, cried and whined, even at night. Tracks and scents would have been left. There would have been witnesses. The Mansi hunters would be able to tell, especially, around their hunting areas if tracks or signs were from the Dyatlov group or the attacker group. I believe this part of the investigation was hidden from the public view.
What did Yuri Yudin see?
--- End quote ---
Really depends on the motive, if they were followed from the beginning there would be different circumstances and more chances of witnesses vs if they were followed from mid point of the journey because the hikers were in a confrontation or witnessed something they shouldn't have. As for Mansi witnesses? If the killers were from one organization or another whether on official business or not the Mansi hunters would not talk out of fear of retaliation whether from the individuals or the government at large. If they start pointing fingers at someone connected to the government it would have been all too easy for the government to find them guilty for the deaths of the hikers and deal with them in any number of unpleasant ways. In their place I would be quiet.
Georgi:
--- Quote from: RidgeWatcher on July 14, 2020, 10:17:02 PM ---
So the problem that was, became the problem that was no longer, so problem solved and no longer is there a problem.
So somewhere around Vishay in early 1959 there lived a sociopath ex-Zek with equally dangerous friends. This sociopath even though angered into a rage by a piece of paper and a young person's loose tongue in January 1959 had to have a previous pattern of severe violence and even murder. Wouldn't the local police force and intelligence be able to narrow this down easily? Do you think the murderer and his friends might have been eliminated by the powers that be in that area? Isn't this what Krushchev would want to know, in the end?
--- End quote ---
If that was who committed the crime, it would make sense, the soviet authorities shut down the are for tourists for a couple of years, they send in some of their Special Forces to hunt down the killers and kill them, no court, no press, no fanfare. Once killed bury them in an unmarked grave and 60 years later even if dug up there would be no connection between the Dyatlov group and the unidentified dead people in a grave out in the middle of nowhere.
Jean Daniel Reuss:
Part 1
Three answers in : Theories Discussion -> Altercation on the pass -> Altercation on the pass
••• RidgeWatcher : July 14, 2020, 10:17:02 PM Reply #41
"...So somewhere around Vishay in early 1959 there lived a sociopath .... with equally dangerous friends....had to have a previous pattern of severe violence and even murder. Wouldn't the local police force and intelligence be able to narrow this down easily? Do you think the murderer and his friends might have been eliminated by the powers that be in that area ?..."
See further in Part 2 where I explain that I now consider 2 related hypotheses.
• Hypothesis N°2 ===> The ex-zeks anti communists were careful not to be noticed and to remain in the strict legality to be able to possibly launch a surprise action if it appeared an opportune moment.
• Hypothesis N°2-bis ===> On the contrary, the Stalinist notables opposed to Khrushchev's reforms, like some leaders in the Gulag, were like powerful lords in their distant oblast and they taunted the central power of Moscow.
••• Georgi : July 16, 2020, 06:38:59 PM Reply #42
" As for Mansi witnesses ? If the killers were from one organization or another whether on official business or not the Mansi hunters would not talk out of fear of retaliation whether from the individuals or the government at large. If they start pointing fingers at someone connected to the government it would have been all too easy for the government to find them guilty for the deaths of the hikers and deal with them in any number of unpleasant ways. In their place I would be quiet."
Yes ! That is well said !
A Mansi hunter or reindeer herder must have been thinking: I will let the Russians sort out their business among themselves. That is none of my business. I did not see anything, I did not hear anything, and I am not going to get too inquisive.
••• Georgi : July 16, 2020, 06:44:55 PM Reply #43
"...to hunt down the killers and kill them, no court, no press, no fanfare...."
The KGB has certainly identified the killers but we do not know when: (a) After February 6, 1959 (questionable date on a sheet)? - (b)After 17 March 1959(Korotaev is fired)? - (c) After 8 May 1959(the last 4 bodies are found)? - (d)-After May 28, 1959(case closed)? - (e)-Long after ?
And then arrest - extensive interrogations - execution... The bodies of the murderers could even be sent to a crematorium and reduced to ashes so that no trace remains.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Part 2
••• Aleks Kandr has written in Russian (in Russian!: unluckily for me) a complete and plausible reconstitution of the DPI. I am convinced that there is a lot of truth in Aleks Kandr's hypotheses and I "adopt" them partially under the name of Hypothesis N°2-bis
--- Quote ---
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-2
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-3
In a nutshell, I now consider 2 neighbouring hypotheses, the main difference between the two is the "WHO". That is to say that the attackers were :
• For: Hypothesis N°2 ====> A few foreign ex-zeks and patriots from countries suffering from Soviet oppression who had not yet been allowed (or able) to leave the Vizhay region.
• For: Hypothesis N°2-bis ====> A few Stalinist Russians opposed to the reforms which had become more pronounced since the XXth (1956) Congress of the Communist Party in 1956 who lived in the Vizhay region.
--- End quote ---
••• A little more explanation on "WHO", "WHY", "HOW", here:
--- Quote --- Theories Discussion -> Murdered -> Murder Indead
Re: Murder Indead July 22, 2020, 03:27:13 PM Reply #141
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=110.msg10194#msg10194
My answer to : Morski If we go for the "must be a murder" theory, few of the main questions I see reasonable are :
(---> Questionss equivalent to "WHO", "WHY", "HOW")
--- End quote ---
••• Nobody had any premonition, but there was however a clue for the "WHY", read here :
Personne n'a eu de prémonition, mais il y a eu quand même un indice pour le "WHY", lire ici :
--- Quote --- Victims and Case Files -> Victims -> Lyudmila Dubinina -> Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death July 20, 2020, 03:43:19 PM Reply #17
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg10160#msg10160
My answers to : Teddy, Sabine Lechtenfeld, BottleBrunette
--- End quote ---
••• Some useful clues to reconstruct the timeline of the altercation:
--- Quote --- Theories Discussion -> General Discussion -> Clothes
Vietnamka March 26, 2019, 09:35:48 AM
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=396.msg4583#msg4583
Vietnamka explains his reasoning on the clothes found on the 9 corpses.
I infer from it (solid hypothesis) that 1°:Kolmogorova, 2°:Slobodin, 3°:Dyatlov were knocked out (thus killed) while going down the slope of Kholat Syakhl.
(Vietnamka writes only : "Did they die first ? While descending ?")
In other words, 20 minutes after leaving the tent, Kolmogorova, Slobodin and Dyatlov were already lying inanimate in the snow and would soon freeze to death.
But then the 3 attackers or killers did not know where the other 6 hikers who had disappeared in the dark were.
Then the 3 attackers climbed back up the slope and rested in the tent.
Later, around midnight, fire under the cedar tree allowed the attackers to find Doroshenko and Krivonischenko. To find out where the other 4 hikers were hiding, the attackers tortured Krivonischenko who did not speak and did not scream.
Around 6 am the darkness being less deep, the attackers located the 4 of the den, attacked them and defeated them. To celebrate their victory, the attackers cut out some body parts from the defeated ones.
Vietnamka thinks that "Kolevatov dies after the two Juris, but clearly before Tibo and Zolotaryov."
--- End quote ---
••• It is alecsandros that raises the most important and difficult question which is the hurried exit from the tent.
--- Quote --- Theories Discussion -> Altercation on the pass -> Altercation on the pass
alecsandros June 26, 2020, 07:06:40 AM Reply #32
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg9765#msg9765
"why did not the members of Dyatlov Group use the axes at hand ? where they to heavily engaged (attacked) to be able to take anything for self defense ?"
--- End quote ---
Be patient it will be for soon...
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