Dyatlov Pass Forum

Genesis => Rules, Intros, Board information => Introductions => Topic started by: ash73 on February 01, 2021, 05:53:04 PM

Title: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 01, 2021, 05:53:04 PM
Hi, newbie here. My interest was piqued by a recent video made by a couple of Russian scientists on YT trying to prove an avalanche was what done it, their demonstration seemed laughable so I came here looking for facts.

I've browsed the forum for a couple of days and I have to say it's interesting and informative, lots of detail and great discussion.

My hypothesis (can't call it a theory without evidence) is the hikers fell out with the wrong person in Vizhay, perhaps a mixture of arrogant students lording it about and what they represented politically to a grim community was enough of a catalyst to seal their fate. Look at the photos of the place, it literally is hell, and they didn't exactly keep a low profile.

I gather there was tension between old regime and new, and they were a shining symbol of something which could cause significant resentment. If one of them (Dubinina?) spoke out of turn it might have resulted in a beating, but flashing a soviet ID card around and expecting to be waited on when people are struggling to survive is a dangerous game.

Put yourself in the position of someone living in that town, your life a constant struggle to make ends meet, imagine how you'd react seeing a group of well educated youngsters acting like care-free adventurers; and what the regime they represented would mean for your future.

They may have been followed, the famous blurred photo 17 might even be a picture of one of their assailants getting too close, every other photo on that film is pin sharp whereas that one perhaps was taken in haste. More likely the assailants knew their route and planned an ambush, perhaps the den was actually their base and they lay in wait. They may have cut down the saplings to use them for their own base, or as brushes to cover their tracks.

The tent was probably approached after dark and they were beaten through the canvas with sticks while making a huge commotion, and it may have been slashed with knives, forcing them to flee in whatever state of dress they were in. Some were overpowered on the way down the hill, those that made it to the tree line were left to die in the freezing cold. When the Yuris made a fire they were attacked again and tortured, the rest were beaten in brutal fashion and dumped in the stream.

Sorry this probably doesn't offer anything new. I welcome evidence to show it's wrong, as per the scientific method, but I think murder by persons unknown is the only way to explain their injuries, which are trustworthy facts. I doubt they were fighting each other, and a government cover-up seems far fetched. It's an interesting puzzle, some of the "facts" are dubious so you have to be selective, without cherry-picking.

I gather the moderator has just released a book, good timing! After just a few days thinking I can buy a copy and find out what really happened and save myself a bunch of time! :)

Anyhow, greetings!
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 08, 2021, 10:45:27 AM
This topic is a proper rabbit hole! The more you research the more intriguing it gets.

I've been reading Donnie Eichar's book Dead Mountain the last couple of days. I still think murder is plausible... but they'd have to be waiting in just the right place, find the tent in pitch black, and it's a big risk to attack nine able-bodied people equipped with knives and ice axes; even if you catch them by surprise.

So it got me thinking what would be the most probable natural phenomenon that could explain the DPI. All we're really looking for is a credible reason why they left the tent in such a hurry. I think most other things can be explained as a consequence.

Eichar's infrasound theory is interesting, presumably they could test it where the tent was located, but it seems unlikely to me it would panic them sufficiently. I tried an online test and it had no effect whatsoever, but it could be quite different on a mountain with howling winds!

Katabatic winds is also interesting, the idea reminds me of the film Day After Tomorrrow. Again it could be tested but you'd have to wait for exactly the right conditions. I could easily imagine the panic they would cause, but I think they would find time to grab their gear.

I'm also pondering a meteor shower causing an airblast or shockwave, something like the Chelyabinsk and Kunakshak events. If they exploded overhead that could easily cause panic. I could imagine the authorities covering it up as standard procedure, because they might not be sure if it indeed was an attack, and it would highlight the fact they had no defence against it.

A military rocket crashing into a nearby mountain could also be plausible, and would explain the cover up, but that would mean there must be a crater somewhere nearby. A nuclear test would have been a breach of the US/USSR moratorium... so we'll probably never find out.

I've also been reading about the Hamar-Daban incident, their sudden deaths are equally bizarre.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Manti on February 08, 2021, 12:10:35 PM
Online infrasound tests will not have any effect because speakers / headphones usually can't emit frequencies lower than 20Hz.

But also infrasound makes no sense as a reason to abandon the tent. If it's generated in the sky, it will spread in all directions, and walking away from the tent they would have quickly realised this and that their best option is to return and plug their ears.  lalala1


And re: nuclear test, to the contrary we would find out in fact the US found out the same day when Russia conducted two tests shortly after the test ban came into effect... There would have been political consequences at the time of another test violating the treaty and the US had capabilities to detect a test anywhere on Earth. So most likely there was no nuclear explosion
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 08, 2021, 12:35:03 PM
Just coincidence that it's quite close to the S-75 Dvina site that shot down a U2 the following year? It was already operational in '59...

I'm more inclined to look at natural phenomena, such as meteor explosions... there were some reports of lights in the sky but I think they were mid-Feb, iirc.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Missi on February 08, 2021, 12:48:31 PM
You're right, Manti, infrasound can't be transported via normal speakers or headphones. But as far as I know, findings suggest that just plugging your ears is not sufficient, because it's not only that you hear the sound, you feel it, too. It resonates inside your body, it might even equal the eigenfrequency of one or another part.

As far as I know (I've read it several times from different sources by now) you're right about the US being able to detect also very small nuclear explosions in the USSR, so I'd count that out as well.

Also as far as I know (by the reports of different interviewees according to the case files, I believe) there were light phenomena in the sky in the very night, that were seen by people in at least two cities nearby (Ivdel and Vizhay?).
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: sarapuk on February 08, 2021, 01:11:32 PM
Ash 73 you have some catching up to do. Study Teddys Website and Forum. They are the best in the World, probably.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 08, 2021, 02:19:54 PM
You're right, Manti, infrasound can't be transported via normal speakers or headphones. But as far as I know, findings suggest that just plugging your ears is not sufficient, because it's not only that you hear the sound, you feel it, too. It resonates inside your body, it might even equal the eigenfrequency of one or another part.

Eichar's book mentions the Israeli police using LRAD for crowd dipersal.

The question is how much effect would it have... with that particular shape of the ridge, in that particular location, and those particular conditions. And as pointed out, does the effect persist as you move down the slope. An expert could probably model it, and recreate the effect acoustically to test it. It would be an interesting experiment.

However in that situation I think I'd grab my coat and boots, whereas if meteors were exploding in the sky directly above me (in 1959) I'd run for cover.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Manti on February 08, 2021, 04:56:32 PM
I didn't know about the U2 shootdown incident before, I like that I learn something new about that era every time I read this forum!
It looks like it was shot down more than 500km from Dyatlov Pass, but I don't know where the SAM site was, is that known? It would make sense that it was in that area surveying the nuclear plant there called "Mayak".

And indeed there were multiple reports of lights in the sky, some describing something moving across the sky and disappearing behind the horizon (meteorite?), and some describing an orange stationary ball, that sounds eerily similar to atmospheric nuclear tests but again I don't think that's occurred at that time. Anyway here's a video of one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsY1bTKbSYY (https://youtube.com/watch?v=UsY1bTKbSYY)


A bolide (exploding meteorite) could explain many aspects of the incident, for example it gives off strong UV radiation which could explain while their exposed skin seemed to be tanned, but then again lying on the snow for weeks some of which were sunny could also explain that if... tanning can happen after death... that I'm not sure of.
There would have been a flash of light so they would probably all go out to look at the sky, then later a shockwave that would knock them over, so it could also explain crush injuries. But how can it be a cause for abandoning the tent?

If there was a shockwave, trees in the forest would have shown damage, if the blast was far away so there's no shockwave, then a meteorite is something that might have happened but doesn't really explain the incident.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Missi on February 09, 2021, 12:24:23 AM
I don't know, ash. But you're right, it would be very interesting to learn about the effect.

I don't know about a SAM site, Manti, but it would make sense. Especially when knowing, that three of all ten known restricted cities were in the oblast Tscheljabinsk. The city called Tscheljabinsk-40 including the plant Mayak being only one of them.

I somehow can't make a meteorite fit in the story. Yes, it would explain some aspects. But it leaves traces that are not there. If it hits ground there should be a crater somewhere. If it explodes in the air, there's a shockwave that must effect the trees nearby. Even if it was a lot smaller than the one of Tunguska.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 09, 2021, 11:46:20 AM
I've spent an interesting few hours today reading more case files and information on this site, it's a credit to everyone involved.

I've come full circle and am now sure it was murder. It's the only reasonable explanation for them leaving the tent unclothed, walking a mile barefoot in the snow to make a fire without taking wood cutting tools, and their injuries. I think they were followed, attacked, thrown out into the cold and left to die.

The local community were living hand to mouth and many won't have appreciated communist city kid adventurers singing songs and using the mountains as their back garden. Perhaps they upset them with something they said, but I think the attack was a statement, which may explain why valuable items were left in the tent.

They got their way in the short term, with organised hikes being banned in the area for 3 years. But now it's become a tourist destination for unsubtle American expeditions with crate loads of artic equipment, tents and motorised ski-mobiles all wanting to stay on the ridge. I take some satisfaction from knowing their descendents may not appreciate the irony.

I think the investigator made some critical errors - including local people in the search made it easy for them to obfuscate evidence and influence the investigation; racial prejudice made him suspect the Mansi rather than seeking out individuals; and he allowed himself to be misdirected (& even obsessed) by witness testimony such as tall tales of lights in the sky.

I think the authorities were embarrassed they couldn't protect their finest students, and were probably furious when he came to them with stories of orbs. They realised they would never find those responsible in such a close-knit community, so decided to shut it down with an avalanche cover story.

I feel desperately sorry for team Dyatlov, everyone talks about them as experienced hikers but really they were innocent and naive young adults, they didn't stand a chance of defending themselves in such an isolated location.

Whoever did it is almost certainly dead by now anyhow. I'll continue to read the case files, I suspect the answer lies in personal connections, family relations and who might be shielding whom.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Missi on February 09, 2021, 02:02:01 PM
You've made up your mind. Can you substantiate your opinion by presenting a complete theory with circumstantial evidence?

I for one don't buy into it that someone followed them all the way just to murder them. That's not worth it. Why would someone do that?
I don't buy into authorities just letting something like that go, if they had lost some of "their finest students". They somehow had a history of finding someone responsible, whether he really was of not... Just to close the case successfully.

And why do you think they couldn't defend themselves? They had knifes, two axes, at least one trained boxing...
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Manti on February 14, 2021, 06:15:47 PM
Locals, that is Russian locals from Vizhay, were simply not equipped to follow them. It requires equipment like a stove, a tent, skis... We think of these as $50 items you can pop down to the local hypermarket to buy, but at the time, I would say even now in Vizhay, these are items not affordable for most people.And these are absolutely required for a multi-day trip following them to the pass.

The other locals, the Mansi, would have been properly equipped of course, and they also have broadskis that leave much shallower traces, and shotguns because they are hunters...they could have easily done it. It makes no logical sense however, because 1, they didn't stand to gain anything from killing the group and 2, if there was someone they hated more than "communist city kids", it was the soviet authorities, and they knew they would likely be blamed automatically even if there was no evidence.
So their best bet would have been to hide the bodies somewhere, they knew the forest so surely they would know the best spot. Or feed them to their sled dogs.  shock1   Instead, their shaman helped find multiple bodies and even helped locate the labaz...
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 14, 2021, 07:21:08 PM
I don't suspect the Mansi, they wouldn't want to attract trouble and I doubt the hikers would be disrespectful to them. I'd say either people from Vizhay or Gulag prison guards.

Looking at photos of Vizhay, it was run-down with some dodgy looking characters, but I shouldn't judge by appearances; it could have been anyone.

https://dyatlovpass.com/vizhay

As to why, I don't think they particularly had a grudge against the students I think it was a political statement; and for those people will go to some effort.

Although, I'm somewhat interested in Krivonischenko's backstory, I doubt it was straightforward to quit your job at a nuclear facility in 1950's Russia.

And Zolotaryov. What precisely was he up to?

I doubt we'll ever know.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Missi on February 15, 2021, 12:36:37 AM
Locals, that is Russian locals from Vizhay, were simply not equipped to follow them. It requires equipment like a stove, a tent, skis... We think of these as $50 items you can pop down to the local hypermarket to buy, but at the time, I would say even now in Vizhay, these are items not affordable for most people.And these are absolutely required for a multi-day trip following them to the pass.

The other locals, the Mansi, would have been properly equipped of course, and they also have broadskis that leave much shallower traces, and shotguns because they are hunters...they could have easily done it. It makes no logical sense however, because 1, they didn't stand to gain anything from killing the group and 2, if there was someone they hated more than "communist city kids", it was the soviet authorities, and they knew they would likely be blamed automatically even if there was no evidence.
So their best bet would have been to hide the bodies somewhere, they knew the forest so surely they would know the best spot. Or feed them to their sled dogs.  shock1   Instead, their shaman helped find multiple bodies and even helped locate the labaz...

I like your analysis. Completely with you there.

ash, we're talking about murder here. Murder comes with three aspects: the motive, the means and the opportunity.
Thinking of some ominous person from Vizhay, they might have had a motive as in your political statement. As Manti stated, I doubt they'd have the means to follow the group to the pass and I'd say there were easier opportunities...

Krivonischenko, according to Rakitin, was working with a construction firm. His quitting was due to a change to another construction firm working at another restricted area. That doesn't seem so strange to me. But of course I must take Rakitins word for it as of now, because I haven't had the chance to research in that direction myself.

Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 15, 2021, 01:48:57 AM
Krivonischenko, according to Rakitin, was working with a construction firm. His quitting was due to a change to another construction firm working at another restricted area. That doesn't seem so strange to me. But of course I must take Rakitins word for it as of now, because I haven't had the chance to research in that direction myself.

He worked in Chelyabinsk 40, a secret nuclear facility, and was assigned to the cleanup of the Kyshtym disaster. He quit because of "complete unwillingness to work in this system" presumably due to poor safety and working conditions; so he could be seen as a potential whistleblower.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 15, 2021, 09:04:44 AM
Locals, that is Russian locals from Vizhay, were simply not equipped to follow them. It requires equipment like a stove, a tent, skis... We think of these as $50 items you can pop down to the local hypermarket to buy, but at the time, I would say even now in Vizhay, these are items not affordable for most people.And these are absolutely required for a multi-day trip following them to the pass.

The other locals, the Mansi, would have been properly equipped of course, and they also have broadskis that leave much shallower traces, and shotguns because they are hunters...they could have easily done it. It makes no logical sense however, because 1, they didn't stand to gain anything from killing the group and 2, if there was someone they hated more than "communist city kids", it was the soviet authorities, and they knew they would likely be blamed automatically even if there was no evidence.
So their best bet would have been to hide the bodies somewhere, they knew the forest so surely they would know the best spot. Or feed them to their sled dogs.  shock1   Instead, their shaman helped find multiple bodies and even helped locate the labaz...

I like your analysis. Completely with you there.

ash, we're talking about murder here. Murder comes with three aspects: the motive, the means and the opportunity.
Thinking of some ominous person from Vizhay, they might have had a motive as in your political statement. As Manti stated, I doubt they'd have the means to follow the group to the pass and I'd say there were easier opportunities...

Krivonischenko, according to Rakitin, was working with a construction firm. His quitting was due to a change to another construction firm working at another restricted area. That doesn't seem so strange to me. But of course I must take Rakitins word for it as of now, because I haven't had the chance to research in that direction myself.

Re: murder.  This.  Criminological theories mostly (there are outliers, as in everything,) agree that for crime to happen there are 1. an actor willing to commit the crime, 2. the absence of a mitigating authority (this can be everything from the presence of law enforcement to perceived sightlines, such as windows,) and 3. a viable target (again, this could be people, things, etc.)  In this case, we might have willing actors.  We might have viable targets.  There is most certainly an absence of mitigating authority IF it is a crime of opportunity.  Otherwise, the pervading fear of being caught and being punished with severe consequences would be a highly mitigating authority.  IF its a crime of opportunity, then the actors are least likely to follow the hikers into a vast, cold wilderness in a blizzard.  After an hour, its no longer a crime of opportunity because the opportunity is going to take days to achieve.  Anyone committing a crime of opportunity by this time will have cooled off (okay, pun intended here, lol!) and gone home. So, we would need to be focusing on some really, highly motivated individuals.  Lets also remember that whomever followed these hikers into the mountains to kill them would be missing work.  That would not go unnoticed.  Remember, it was only a few years before 1959 where you would be sent to a gulag for simply being late to work.  The Soviet system was built on everyone doing their share for the greater good; that's why Bienko could not go on the hike.  He still owed labor debt to the state for being a student and using all of his vacations for hiking instead of putting in work hours. 

This is the main reason murder does not hold up for me.  It just doesn't have the patterns of behavior you see in high crime. 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 15, 2021, 10:19:14 AM
The problem with a murder hypothesis is it's impossible for decent rational people to think as a murderer does; even if the evidence is staring them in the face. It must be difficult to convince a jury to convict a killer, for that reason. I don't think people in Vizhay would struggle to find a few pairs of skis and warm coats, and I expect enough of them would be familiar with the mountains. But I don't know it was people from Vizhay.

It comes down to which evidence you prioritise, if it's their injuries then it's killed by persons unknown, if it's lights in the sky & government coverup then it's rocket crash, or meteor blast. No other theory I've read so far explains why they fled the tent with no shoes, coats or wood cutting tools. Bad weather and incompetence is always a possibility, but there are just too many oddities in this case to make that plausible, imo.

I'm not trying to convince anyone btw, I'm just here for my own interest.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 15, 2021, 11:11:58 AM
The problem with a murder hypothesis is it's impossible for decent rational people to think as a murderer does; even if the evidence is staring them in the face. It must be difficult to convince a jury to convict a killer, for that reason. I don't think people in Vizhay would struggle to find a few pairs of skis and warm coats, and I expect enough of them would be familiar with the mountains. But I don't know it was people from Vizhay.

It comes down to which evidence you prioritise, if it's their injuries then it's killed by persons unknown, if it's lights in the sky & government coverup then it's rocket crash, or meteor blast. No other theory I've read so far explains why they fled the tent with no shoes, coats or wood cutting tools. Bad weather and incompetence is always a possibility, but there are just too many oddities in this case to make that plausible, imo.

I'm not trying to convince anyone btw, I'm just here for my own interest.

I would disagree with the comment that it is hard for decent, rational people to think as a murderer does; murders would never be solved if investigators were not able to think as the murderer did.  Not to mention, everyone carries the propensity for murder.  As a victim's advocate, I routinely saw "decent, rational" people do horrible things because of emotion or simply just because.  When serving on parole boards, I would typically consider paroling a murderer before someone with drug related crimes because nine times out of ten, murder is simply a crime of passion that happens in a bad moment and the offender rarely recidivates, unlike those arrested with drug crimes (unless there are other circumstances at play such as a sociopathic or psychopathic personality, etc, but I don't think that applies here.) 

I will say, when I first started researching this, I felt the same.  There was nothing to me, other than human interference, that could explain the hikers leaving their tent and protective gear.  But over time, I'm more and more inclined to think in other directions.  Sometimes I circle back to murder, but the evidence just does not hold up for me, personally.  I wish we had definitive answers but, then there would be no puzzle and no discussion and I would miss that.  I love seeing other people's perspectives and how they come to their conclusions.  Even here, I'm an American, I assume by your icon that you are from the UK.  We have different ideas, some of which are probably because our cultures differ and our perspectives are unique to one another.  I love reading from Russian commenters here, since they understand the culture in ways I can't or have never considered.  We all bring something to the table and the discussion allows for looking at things in new ways, which is invaluable!!! 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 15, 2021, 12:13:09 PM
...over time, I'm more and more inclined to think in other directions.

What is your theory?
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 15, 2021, 01:16:39 PM
...over time, I'm more and more inclined to think in other directions.

What is your theory?

Bear with me; its kind of long and convoluted, lol.

I kind of waffle back and forth, to be honest.  On one hand, I believe that there was a weather related event and the group made decisions that, while the best options they had, led to their deaths.  When I watched the Expedition Unknown episode with Josh Gates and Teddy and saw the conditions on the ridge in "normal" winters, it seemed like a revelation to me.  Reading all of the witness testimonies about the superstorm that occurred in early February and the accounts of other hiking groups in the area who also had problems, I really believe that the weather was the catalyst.  I know that makes leaving the tent even more suspect, but we make odd decisions sometimes when in the middle of a tragedy with only split seconds to decide.  To me, in a crisis event, I try to regroup, triage and go from there.  Focus on getting through the first five minutes, then focus on the next hour, then focus on the next twelve hours (at twelve hours, you will either be alive or dead; daylight will arrive, etc.). If something is wrong at the tent, say the wind and snow are too much.  Its all going to blow away (or something to that effect,) you have five minutes to secure the tent in order to try and save what is inside, sixty minutes to get to shelter (the cedar being the only shelter around,) regroup, triage and come up with the best plan to make it to sunrise.  (Get a fire going for immediate warmth, start building a better shelter, possibly send someone back to the tent for supplies.)

On the other hand, there is the tent.  The tent, the stove, their food, their entire lifeline.  It would have to be extraordinary, extreme circumstances not to get better gear on when leaving and to leave the tent behind.  Here is where I waffle with the cover up theory.  Part of me is convinced the group would not have camped on that exposed ridge in the middle of a storm, considering how bad the wind is under normal circumstances.  Some of that has to do with the cache.  According to the supposed timeline, they tried to ascend the ridge and had to turn back, then they dug the cache and went back up the ridge to try and ascend again and wound up camped on the ridge.  That doesn't make sense to me.  The logical sequence would be make the cache, try to ascend, turn back, try again the next day.  But, we know the tent was found on the ridge, and we know where the bodies were found.  What if they didn't camp on the ridge, though?  What if they camped elsewhere, something completely accidental and mundane happened but the camp was close to something the locals or authorities did not want outsiders seeing?  This comes close to someone else's theory and I don't want to draw from their more in depth research.  It just is the only thing to me that can explain the tent being on that ridge where there is just no other reason for it to be. 

So, my theories are a bit boring and mundane, I know.  The cover up part is so completely against my pragmatism but I can not reconcile the tent being there for any other reason.  I know that some hikers felt Dyatlov would use it as practice for his trip to the sub polar Urals, where they'd be above the tree line, but I just don't see them taking the chance in that storm.  Then again, if the weather kicked it up into a danger zone after they'd made camp and it was too late...

This also relies on not focusing on things that could have mundane answers, like the radiation (I think the area was high in radiation as it was and some of it could have also come in on their clothes, as well,) or the nature of their injuries.  I think for Zina, Igor and Rustem, they were crawling up hill, already in a severe physical state, with high winds and ice and snow hitting them, and they were falling on their faces and such.  I think the Yuris probably knew that staying to tend the fire for the others was akin to suicide but you sacrificed so your comrades could live.  I think the state of the ravine 4 either had a lot to do with decomposition, animal predation etc or they were injured in whatever accident happened if they were camped elsewhere.  I know there is a lot of debate about their injuries and I don't discount that their injuries are one of the biggest mysteries of all. 

And there is so much more, as always, lol!  I love social psychology, so learning about their lives, their interactions, the lives of those involved with the rescue and search etc are really interesting to me.  I don't think there was anything between Zina and Igor, as some believe.  Zina sent a letter to a friend before the hike describing Igor as basically a loner that none if the girls were interested in.  I do find it curious how much she writes about Rustem on the hike...  I don't know why, but hearing other students saying Kolevatov was a jerk and none of the girls wanted to be around him somehow piques my curiosity.  Just curiosity, though; I don't think any fights broke out over love triangles or anything.  I interpret some of their writings differently than others, just to try and see different perspectives.  They were just a fascinating group of normal people.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 15, 2021, 02:55:17 PM
Thanks that's interesting.

Maybe I misunderstood something, why were Zina, Igor and Rustem climbing the hill if the tent wasn't there?

I'll get round to reading the book at some point to find out more about this tent migration theory.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 15, 2021, 03:18:36 PM
Thanks that's interesting.

Maybe I misunderstood something, why were Zina, Igor and Rustem climbing the hill if the tent wasn't there?

I'll get round to reading the book at some point to find out more about this tent migration theory.

That's an excellent question.  If the tent was not there, were their bodies staged there?  Were they trying to get to higher ground for some reason?  Could they have died on the way *down* the hill?  (There is an article somewhere on this site where it was determined that Ivanov changed the distance of the footprints in his report so that Zina's body was not in the zone of the prints.  I have to do more digging on that, though.)   Was there something on the ridge that they needed or thought could help them?  Its still one of the many mysteries to be fleshed out, for me.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Missi on February 15, 2021, 03:20:01 PM
Krivonischenko, according to Rakitin, was working with a construction firm. His quitting was due to a change to another construction firm working at another restricted area. That doesn't seem so strange to me. But of course I must take Rakitins word for it as of now, because I haven't had the chance to research in that direction myself.

He worked in Chelyabinsk 40, a secret nuclear facility, and was assigned to the cleanup of the Kyshtym disaster. He quit because of "complete unwillingness to work in this system" presumably due to poor safety and working conditions; so he could be seen as a potential whistleblower.

You're right, I remember that one, too. Maybe I'm mixing two guys up...? I'll look it up as soon as I can.

Re: murder.  This.  Criminological theories mostly (there are outliers, as in everything,) agree that for crime to happen there are 1. an actor willing to commit the crime, 2. the absence of a mitigating authority (this can be everything from the presence of law enforcement to perceived sightlines, such as windows,) and 3. a viable target (again, this could be people, things, etc.)  In this case, we might have willing actors.  We might have viable targets.  There is most certainly an absence of mitigating authority IF it is a crime of opportunity.  Otherwise, the pervading fear of being caught and being punished with severe consequences would be a highly mitigating authority.  IF its a crime of opportunity, then the actors are least likely to follow the hikers into a vast, cold wilderness in a blizzard.  After an hour, its no longer a crime of opportunity because the opportunity is going to take days to achieve.  Anyone committing a crime of opportunity by this time will have cooled off (okay, pun intended here, lol!) and gone home. So, we would need to be focusing on some really, highly motivated individuals.  Lets also remember that whomever followed these hikers into the mountains to kill them would be missing work.  That would not go unnoticed.  Remember, it was only a few years before 1959 where you would be sent to a gulag for simply being late to work.  The Soviet system was built on everyone doing their share for the greater good; that's why Bienko could not go on the hike.  He still owed labor debt to the state for being a student and using all of his vacations for hiking instead of putting in work hours. 

This is the main reason murder does not hold up for me.  It just doesn't have the patterns of behavior you see in high crime. 

I'm not sure, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but isn't that just another argument for my point, being that a murder by locals (either Russians or Mansi) would be quite unlikely?

By the way: I never heard of Bienko having to work because of labor debt. Whenever I read about the reasons he was not allowed to take part in the hike, it was him failing some exams.

I will say, when I first started researching this, I felt the same.  There was nothing to me, other than human interference, that could explain the hikers leaving their tent and protective gear.  But over time, I'm more and more inclined to think in other directions.  Sometimes I circle back to murder, but the evidence just does not hold up for me, personally.  I wish we had definitive answers but, then there would be no puzzle and no discussion and I would miss that.  I love seeing other people's perspectives and how they come to their conclusions.  Even here, I'm an American, I assume by your icon that you are from the UK.  We have different ideas, some of which are probably because our cultures differ and our perspectives are unique to one another.  I love reading from Russian commenters here, since they understand the culture in ways I can't or have never considered.  We all bring something to the table and the discussion allows for looking at things in new ways, which is invaluable!!! 

That sounds pretty familiar. At first I was all "Oh, it was just an accident, just nature." Then I thought it must have been some kind of government involvement to cover up something top secret. Then I read Rakitin, who says it was basically the KGB wanting to get some faked evidences to foreign spies by means of undercover agents, the evidences being radioactive dust traveling in the clothes of Krivonischenko. As of now, I do see flaws in his arguments but it seems the best way to get everything together, the injuries, the cut tent, the left clothes and tools...

He also made me think a lot about the fire by the cedar. According to Rakitin the cedar is not level ground but stands on a small hill. That makes the place exposed to the elements. I find it hard to believe, that someone fleeing a tent because it was too exposed on the ridge would then go to another exposed place to light a fire.
He also states that the fire was lit on the side of the tree that was exposed to the wind. Having seen the Expedition Unknown episodes and taking into account that (also according to Rakitin) the tree was between the fire and the tent, I can't believe that this was the side exposed to the wind. Anyone got an opinion on that?

The thing with the storage and the accent seems a bit weird to me as well. I understand they were halfway up the mountain when they realized they wouldn't make it until evening and returned to the Auspija valley. This seems a logical thing to do. They could have put up storage on the other side of the mountain in the Lozwa valley. But why did they decide to build the storage in the first part of the day, not being sure whether they would be able to make the whole way across the mountain ridge? I can imagine only two reasons for that: First they didn't plan to descend to the valley but wanted to keep their height. Then it wouldn't matter which time it was, for they didn't plan to have another night in the woods. Second - as Rakitin suggests - they had an appointment to keep and couldn't move forward without missing it.

By the way, there seem to be different reports even concerning the weather. Some reports state that it was pretty warm those late January and first two or three February days in 1959 (including one or two diary entries I've read), whereas others state there were bad storms and it was bloody cold, having other hikers getting into trouble and even returning with frostbites as their evidence.
I'm confused. But I guess, that's a normal state of mind when researching the incident. So I'll leave for bed and sleep it all over...
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 15, 2021, 04:29:53 PM

He also made me think a lot about the fire by the cedar. According to Rakitin the cedar is not level ground but stands on a small hill. That makes the place exposed to the elements. I find it hard to believe, that someone fleeing a tent because it was too exposed on the ridge would then go to another exposed place to light a fire.
He also states that the fire was lit on the side of the tree that was exposed to the wind. Having seen the Expedition Unknown episodes and taking into account that (also according to Rakitin) the tree was between the fire and the tent, I can't believe that this was the side exposed to the wind. Anyone got an opinion on that?


I understand the cedar was on slightly raised ground, with less trees around it than there are now, and the fire was on the far side sheltered from the wind, so it couldn't be seen from the tent. Whereas branches removed from the cedar 1-5m high were on the windward side, facing the tent. The cuts in the tent were on the downslope side, so someone still inside the tent would see anyone approach from the trees.

I saw someone on here mention spent matches strewn about the cedar but I haven't found it in the case files yet, do we know for sure the hikers started the fire? For that matter we don't know they made the den either, I'm dubious about them digging it out with their bare hands (the hands of the den 4 were unmarked).
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 15, 2021, 07:32:54 PM
Missi-

"not sure, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but isn't that just another argument for my point, being that a murder by locals (either Russians or Mansi) would be quite unlikely?"

Yes, I was agreeing with you :)
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 15, 2021, 09:01:20 PM
Regarding Bienko,

"When the last preparations were completed and there were three days before leaving, Bienko as a student was summoned to the Komsomol committee, where he was questioned what he had done during the last summer and winter holidays, when his comrades and fellow students helped the national economy on labor fronts - on state farms, timber industry enterprises and at construction sites in the country. It turned out that Vladislav had spent all his holidays on mountain hikes! Well, if so, then the Komsomol member Bienko was immediately awarded a ticket to the "Udarnik" timber industry enterprise, and no higher school administration could help him escape this fate.

- Even our head of the department, Professor Pal Zakharych Petukhov, could not help me, - recalls Vladislav Bienko, - with whom I had very good relations. I had to give my share of equipment and food to Semyon Zolotaryov, who replaced me, an instructor at the Kourovka tour base. And when the time came for the group to leave for the North, all I could do was help my comrades load heavy backpacks on the train."

https://dyatlovpass.com/bienko?rbid=18461
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Missi on February 16, 2021, 01:08:20 AM
I do remember skimming over that one, you're right. Why on earth are there so many different reports on things, that should be just facts and nothing to be subject to subjectivity... I have to find the source of my believing he had failed exams...

Missi-

"not sure, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but isn't that just another argument for my point, being that a murder by locals (either Russians or Mansi) would be quite unlikely?"

Yes, I was agreeing with you :)


Good. I like to be agreed with. :) Thanks.


ash, I'm starting to wonder if we know anything for sure other than that there were 9 hikers that disappeared and were found dead. As the fire and the den are concerned, as far as I know, we just assume based on the fact that no indicators of other people around the place at that time were found.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: MDGross on February 16, 2021, 08:41:29 AM
ash73, Manti, Missi and Finn: Solid ideas from all of you. I always think of the DPI as endlessly fascinating with no air-tight solution possible. After 62 years, records and evidence have been lost, destroyed or hidden. Still, once you're hooked, you can't help but enjoy the speculation. And it seems inevitable to favor one theory today and a different one tomorrow. As of today, I favor the idea that they acted irrationally and were not in their right minds. Infrasound could cause this, or toxic fumes from an exploded missile. There is the theory that they inhaled tiny spores from hallucinogenic mushrooms or that they were slowly poisoned and became irrational from fungus in the rye bread they ate. Tomorrow, I might like the idea that espionage was at the heart of the tragedy. 1959 was the height of the Cold War, Soviet citizens paid by the CIA and Americans paid by the KGB were everywhere in the Soviet Union and the U.S. In this scenario, Zolotaryov is often the center of attention since none of the others knew him before he joined the hike. Under the Freedom of Information Act, I asked the CIA for any information it had about Zolotaryov. I got a convoluted response that the CIA could neither confirm or deny the existence or nonexistence of such information and it was all classified anyway.
My point is to keep an open mind, which you all seem willing to do. Don't dismiss any ideas out of hand as nonsense. The only real nonsense is that we continue to explore a mystery that is never going to be solved. But isn't it fun and enjoyable anyway???!!!
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 16, 2021, 10:25:40 AM
ash73, Manti, Missi and Finn: Solid ideas from all of you. I always think of the DPI as endlessly fascinating with no air-tight solution possible. After 62 years, records and evidence have been lost, destroyed or hidden. Still, once you're hooked, you can't help but enjoy the speculation. And it seems inevitable to favor one theory today and a different one tomorrow. As of today, I favor the idea that they acted irrationally and were not in their right minds. Infrasound could cause this, or toxic fumes from an exploded missile. There is the theory that they inhaled tiny spores from hallucinogenic mushrooms or that they were slowly poisoned and became irrational from fungus in the rye bread they ate. Tomorrow, I might like the idea that espionage was at the heart of the tragedy. 1959 was the height of the Cold War, Soviet citizens paid by the CIA and Americans paid by the KGB were everywhere in the Soviet Union and the U.S. In this scenario, Zolotaryov is often the center of attention since none of the others knew him before he joined the hike. Under the Freedom of Information Act, I asked the CIA for any information it had about Zolotaryov. I got a convoluted response that the CIA could neither confirm or deny the existence or nonexistence of such information and it was all classified anyway.
My point is to keep an open mind, which you all seem willing to do. Don't dismiss any ideas out of hand as nonsense. The only real nonsense is that we continue to explore a mystery that is never going to be solved. But isn't it fun and enjoyable anyway???!!!

Well said!

Mysteries like this call to you in a personal way.  I followed it for sometime out of curiosity but when my children hit the age of 19, it became more.  That hit something in me, recognizing that these hikers were real people with families, dreams, goals.  They've had a greater purpose than they ever would have known in life, by drawing together thousands of people throughout sixty+ years, inspiring masses.  They've given some of us renewed feelings of purpose, by allowing us the chance to try and solve the various mysteries involved in their deaths.  They've allowed us to get glimpses into their lives, lives we probably never would have had the chance to know otherwise.  I hope my own death is quiet, quick and uneventful but if any mystery surrounds it, I couldn't ask for a better honor than to have people still talking about me sixty years later. 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: sarapuk on February 16, 2021, 11:22:06 AM
ash73, Manti, Missi and Finn: Solid ideas from all of you. I always think of the DPI as endlessly fascinating with no air-tight solution possible. After 62 years, records and evidence have been lost, destroyed or hidden. Still, once you're hooked, you can't help but enjoy the speculation. And it seems inevitable to favor one theory today and a different one tomorrow. As of today, I favor the idea that they acted irrationally and were not in their right minds. Infrasound could cause this, or toxic fumes from an exploded missile. There is the theory that they inhaled tiny spores from hallucinogenic mushrooms or that they were slowly poisoned and became irrational from fungus in the rye bread they ate. Tomorrow, I might like the idea that espionage was at the heart of the tragedy. 1959 was the height of the Cold War, Soviet citizens paid by the CIA and Americans paid by the KGB were everywhere in the Soviet Union and the U.S. In this scenario, Zolotaryov is often the center of attention since none of the others knew him before he joined the hike. Under the Freedom of Information Act, I asked the CIA for any information it had about Zolotaryov. I got a convoluted response that the CIA could neither confirm or deny the existence or nonexistence of such information and it was all classified anyway.
My point is to keep an open mind, which you all seem willing to do. Don't dismiss any ideas out of hand as nonsense. The only real nonsense is that we continue to explore a mystery that is never going to be solved. But isn't it fun and enjoyable anyway???!!!

Yes some very useful input from the newcomers to this Forum. I think this Mystery could be solved one day, but I think we are going to need more Evidence to come to light. Yes even after 60 years its still possible for Missing Evidence to make an appearance.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: MDGross on February 17, 2021, 06:08:25 AM
That's my hope as well, sarapuk. I wonder what three or four exhumed bodies, should family members consent, might reveal. We could know if radiation was present in all the bodies. If Lyuda's body was exhumed, advanced forensic tests might give us an idea of how her injuries were sustained. I'm speaking with no knowledge on the subject, but other tests could surely bring other important facts to light.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 17, 2021, 07:05:07 AM
I think the radiation is a red herring. Two of the group worked with radioactive substances so could easily have contaminated clothing given the standards of the day, and it was a relatively low level only 2-3 times background; Occam's razor suggests why look any further?
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 17, 2021, 09:59:58 AM
I agree on the radiation most probably being a red herring.  However, exhuming and testing would allow us to then put the radiation to bed (if it isn't involved in their deaths,) and focus on other things, perhaps.  Kind of similar to why Ivanov got testimony to rule out the Mansi, so that they could then focus on other possibilities.  Not that we still don't question it, anyway, lol!

I know exhumation can be an emotional thing for families.  But, we seem to have learned quite a bit from Zolotaryev's exhumation.  I hate disturbing the dead but in this case it could be vital for the families/friends to get closure. 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Missi on February 17, 2021, 12:16:12 PM
ash, the fact, that the radiation could easily be washed out of the clothes plus the fact that the bodies had been lying in running water for quite some time before being found and the clothes tested for radiation implies, that in the beginning, that is the time when the tragedy occured, the radiation was much higher than measured.

As for exhumations, KFinn, there's for sure some aspects that might be learned from them, still. Yet I'd expect all the tissue to be gone by now, so there are things, we can't analyze anymore...
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 18, 2021, 05:59:16 PM
I don't suspect the Mansi...

I've just finished reading Svetlana Oss - Dont Go There and I'm seriously reconsidering this assumption!

I thought "murderous Mansi" was too obvious, but it could be that simple:

- The two women weren't raped (unlikely to be the case with other perpetrators)
- Valuables in the tent weren't stolen (would not steal from sacred site)
- Vodka in the tent wasn't stolen (and Mansi searchers refused to drink it)
- Mansi Choom located just 800m from the tent (record of a kill or sacrifice)
- Other people who trespassed sacred sites had been killed in the past
- They lied about not hunting in the area
- They lied about the mountains not being a sacred site
- They wanted to discourage other hikers from using sacred sites
- They forbad women attending sacred sites
- They could have interpreted lights in the sky (meteor/rocket) as a portent
- They knew the exact place to dig for rav-4 (probably conceded the tourists would never leave otherwise)
- Mansi belt found at cedar is evidence they had been there
- They, unlike hikers, had the means to cut branches and make a den (& could have been observing the tent)
- Forceably driving hikers off the mountain would explain why they fled the tent unequipped
- Encounter with Mansi mentioned in the hikers diary (maybe they were warned but did not understand)
- As mentioned by others above, they had more opportunity than locals (equipment, skills, local knowledge)

I'm also suspicious about the testimony of the search team, some knew more than they let on and misled the authorities (particularly Ivan Pashin).

I think there were other things going on in the group, Zolotaryov was probably there to monitor Krivonischenko and possibly others, and there might even have been something going on with radioactive materials, but the authorities were satisfied once all the bodies were found that nobody had defected so just closed it down. Perhaps they did a deal with the Mansi they wouldn't be prosecuted if they told them where the bodies were. They probably wanted to avoid further trouble between Russians and the Mansi, so just banned hikers from the mountain.

Next book on my list is Keith **** - Mountain of the Dead.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 18, 2021, 07:02:15 PM
p.s. when I say Mansi I should distinguish Mansi and Khanty, but I don't know enough to do that yet... so I should probably just say "indigenous people".
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 18, 2021, 08:22:45 PM
There are some things that have been a bit...exaggerated through the years.  The Mansi didn't have any sacred areas near the ridge the Dyatlov group were on.  In fact, if you read the witness testimonies, the Mansi didn't use sacred places by 1959, according them and the the local historian who worked with them for fifty years (Uvarov, Ivan Evlampievich.) They also had no problems with women being in their spaces.  Russians in general were revered by them, and always invited into their huts for food and drink.  One of the other hiking groups out at the same time as Dyatlov stayed overnight with one of the Bahtiyarov family before continuing on their hike.  Uvarov even said that if a Mansi had killed the group, none of them would have participated in the search.

I do think they could have been involved with helping to stage a cover up if there had been an accident, but I am very doubtful they would have been violent against any Russian.  It is counter to their nature.  Now, I know much less about the Khanty, personally.  The only real mention I've seen of them in the Dyatlov case was in Oss's book. 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 19, 2021, 02:46:34 AM
That's what I thought originally, but you're assuming their testimony is honest but the fact is people lie. There are several examples in the book where their behaviour, and words, are aggressive. I expect many Red Indian tribes were peaceful hunters but they reacted violently when they had to compete over land and resources; and Russian tourists were encroaching on Mansi territory.

You have to be careful not to judge them only as a group; every group has good and bad people. And I can imagine others who did not support what they did nevertheless would shield them. Participating in the search is the best way to influence it; whether it was locals, Mansi or military responsible they were all there. It could also be a form of atonement.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Missi on February 19, 2021, 05:04:51 AM
As far as I have read (mostly on this site) there are no evidences for quite some time of Mansi attacking Russians at all. Not over territory, women "trespassing" or sacred grounds. When those things happened it was the Khanti involved. Yet (also as far as I read and remember) there are no Khanti and Khanti territories near enough the site of the tragedy that it could be attributed to them.

On the other hand (as KFinn says) there are evidences (not only their words) that Mansi acted peacefully towards Russians at that time.

That is for sure not a prove against anyone being involved. Of course, there might have been one special Mansi or maybe two or three, who were crazy or angry or whatever and because of that killed the group. That is about as probable as you stepping out of your house and being shot because you crossed someone. It can't be a general suspicion against a whole people.

I'd be interested in your sources when you state that the Mansi lied about the hunting and the mountains, though. Can you point me to them?
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 19, 2021, 08:36:08 AM
That's what I thought originally, but you're assuming their testimony is honest but the fact is people lie. There are several examples in the book where their behaviour, and words, are aggressive. I expect many Red Indian tribes were peaceful hunters but they reacted violently when they had to compete over land and resources; and Russian tourists were encroaching on Mansi territory.

You have to be careful not to judge them only as a group; every group has good and bad people. And I can imagine others who did not support what they did nevertheless would shield them. Participating in the search is the best way to influence it; whether it was locals, Mansi or military responsible they were all there. It could also be a form of atonement.

If I were just basing this on Mansi testimony, it might be different.  But I also gave you non Mansi who knew them well and testified that no, the Mansi were very peaceful (and still are to this day.)
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 19, 2021, 09:21:00 AM
I will readily admit, Oss's book was one of the first I read on the DPI, when I ran out of stuff online.  I liked it but, every author has an agenda, that being their theory.  For Oss, she pushed heavily on the Mansi, for Wilkinson it was the stove, for Rakitin it was KGB and spies, for the Discovery channel it was Russian yeti.  Many of these were written without the benefit of all of the case files and interviews you can find on this site.  Every one of them should be read/watched with a critical eye and compared against the evidence we now have, and against other books and media.  Taken as a whole, we see two things emerge: 1. that many of the books we read give only a very biased piece of the puzzle and 2. that the more we read, the less answers we actually have, lol!

As to the Mansi, it is easy to blame what we think of as "others."  It's human nature, in fact.  But the Mansi, while living separately, were still integrated into the local culture.  Grigoriy Nikolaevich
Kurikov was the deputy of the Ivdel city counsel.  His brother, Stepan, was Deputy of the city legislative assembly of Ivdel.  Both were Mansi.  Both participated in the search and rescue.  There are many witness testimonies in the files from locals who outright said the Mansi were just not violent and had no ill will toward anyone. 

Coincidentally, there was at least one Khanty in the area, Hatanzeev, who worked at the 2nd Northern, or at least stayed in the guesthouse.  I find no other mentions of Khanty but now I'm just curious.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Missi on February 19, 2021, 10:13:24 AM
I somehow doubt that one single man could have managed to force 9 people from their tent. But it's worth looking into.

And: Well said!
Quote
that many of the books we read give only a very biased piece of the puzzle
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 19, 2021, 11:02:10 AM
As to the Mansi, it is easy to blame what we think of as "others."  It's human nature, in fact.

I'm not blaming them because they're "others", I'm suggesting aspects of Mansi culture provide a motive. We're looking for individuals not a group identity. Imagine claiming, for example, a white person can't have done this because they are peaceful and integrated. It's meaningless (and probably offensive).

Also, there may be circumstances which narrows the list of suspects. For example we know the two women were not raped. It's sad to say, but I suspect that's unlikely to be the case if it had been escaped prisoners, guards, or locals... but it may be the case if it was Mansi, or a military operation.

BTW the case files on here don't seem to have any detail on the Mansi interviews, only what others said about them.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 19, 2021, 11:17:20 AM
...When those things happened it was the Khanti involved. Yet (also as far as I read and remember) there are no Khanti and Khanti territories near enough the site of the tragedy that it could be attributed to them...

I tried overlaying a territory map on a modern map - DP appears to be the nearest point of the Urals to Khanty territory, about 80km. I gather they were allowed to travel in each other's territory.

(https://i.ibb.co/rd55nsg/map.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 19, 2021, 11:21:36 AM
As to the Mansi, it is easy to blame what we think of as "others."  It's human nature, in fact.

I'm not blaming them because they're "others", I'm suggesting aspects of Mansi culture provide a motive. We're looking for individuals not a group identity. Imagine claiming, for example, a white person can't have done this because they are peaceful and integrated. It's meaningless (and probably offensive).

Also, there may be circumstances which narrows the list of suspects. For example we know the two women were not raped. It's sad to say, but I suspect that's unlikely to be the case if it had been escaped prisoners, guards, or locals... but it may be the case if it was Mansi, or a military operation.

BTW the case files on here don't seem to have any detail on the Mansi interviews, only what others said about them.

If you look in the first volume of the case files, there are testimonies by both Mansi and locals about them.  I believe there are some in the second volume, as well, but I will have to go back and look.  They interviewed the Bahtiyarovs, the Anyamovs, the Kurikovs, etc.  Some needed interpreters but others did not.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Missi on February 19, 2021, 11:23:25 AM
It seems as if they did travel to each other's territory. Yet if it was Mansi territory it's unlikely that there was any sacred Khanti ground there. It's not impossible that some Khanty killed the hikers but I'd like to have more than just the mere possibility they could have been there before buying that theory.

By the way: Aren't you just assuming that Mansi were unlikely to rape the girls whereas Russians (may it be locals, guards or prisoners) were indeed very likely to do so?
I don't know much about gulags, but as for free locals or guards I'd say they are no more likely to rape the girls than is your neighbor.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 19, 2021, 01:09:10 PM
I wouldn't say it's an assumption, they have different motives. In the scenario we're discussing the Mansi are seeking to punish the hikers for abusing their religion; rape is hardly a suitable punishment. Whereas the vile sort of people who would attack them for sport, or hatred, would have less scruples.

One interesting point is we know the hikers were petty thieves (Lyuda hid from the train ticket inspector, someone accused them of stealing vodka, and they forgot to pack vodka, yet it was found in the tent... maybe they did steal it, they even had a rule to only enter the tent in pairs to prevent theft) could they have taken something from the Mansi?
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 20, 2021, 02:32:21 AM
Next book on my list is Keith **** - Mountain of the Dead.

Finished this yesterday, thought it was ok-ish probably the weakest of the books I've read so far. The introduction is good, and it describes lots of theories, some of them could do with a bit more detail but it's quite a good summary. There's a lot of detail on rocket tests and military scenarios for people interested in that sort of thing. I thought the Tu-95 parachute mines theory was interesting, and the book briefly looks at the idea of the tent being moved. For some reason in the second half it deep-dives into a daft theory about supernatural lights firing energy beams, and goes downhill from there.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 20, 2021, 08:28:27 AM
Next book on my list is Keith **** - Mountain of the Dead.

Finished this yesterday, thought it was ok-ish probably the weakest of the books I've read so far. The introduction is good, and it describes lots of theories, some of them could do with a bit more detail but it's quite a good summary. There's a lot of detail on rocket tests and military scenarios for people interested in that sort of thing. I thought the Tu-95 parachute mines theory was interesting, and the book briefly looks at the idea of the tent being moved. For some reason in the second half it deep-dives into a daft theory about supernatural lights firing energy beams, and goes downhill from there.

If you are able, he has a second book about his trip to the pass that is interesting.  It gives some good perspectives on traveling the route and such.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Missi on February 20, 2021, 10:30:11 AM
One interesting point is we know the hikers were petty thieves (Lyuda hid from the train ticket inspector, someone accused them of stealing vodka, and they forgot to pack vodka, yet it was found in the tent... maybe they did steal it, they even had a rule to only enter the tent in pairs to prevent theft) could they have taken something from the Mansi?

I never read that before. I know that some traveled without a ticket. I thought maybe that was because they were lacking money or maybe it was some kind of hobby, just for the thrill. Some people are like that. I have never understood that kind of behavior, but it does exist.
I knew of the accusation. But I thought it was not more than that.
Where did you read that they forgot the vodka? And where did you get that rule of only two people together being allowed to enter the tent?
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 21, 2021, 03:28:30 AM
Where did you read that they forgot the vodka? And where did you get that rule of only two people together being allowed to enter the tent?

Can't remember sorry, I've read so much recently it all merges together in my head! Lyuda went into the tent on her own to sulk one evening, so take it with a pinch of salt... like everything else.

Now started on Rakitin's book, this one is much more detailed, and a book within a book about cold war espionage from a Russian PoV; looking forward to reading that!

...so now I'm up to my eyeballs in nuclear jumper dead drops and American spies! Great stuff.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Manti on February 21, 2021, 06:48:13 PM
Regarding the Mansi, I can imagine a sort of non-violent scenario, where they see the group setting up the tent on the slope and approach them still in daylight or thereabouts, and try to ask them not to camp on the hill. In this scenario probably the Dyatlov group didn't understand what is going on due to language difficulties etc., but it's clear they're being asked to leave, so they go down to the forest and start a fire and the Mansi leave and the rest could just be due to the cold at night and them trying to wait the situation out in the forest not knowing if the Mansi are still around or not..

The Mansi testimonies certainly seem somewhat suspicious, but this might just be due to how they were recorded at the time... They seem to answer questions they weren't asked, for example multiple of them state they didn't see the group or anyone else in the forest.... but have they ever been asked this? At the same time there are rumours that one Mansi indeed saw the group. And having seen them in and of itself would not be incriminating at all.. And then there are the telegrams from the searchers stating that the "keeping the Mansi involved is not necessary", I believe this was a toned down, polite version at the time of them being either seen as disruptive, demoralising or just plain unhelpful. Why? We might never know
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 21, 2021, 07:35:30 PM
Regarding the Mansi, I can imagine a sort of non-violent scenario, where they see the group setting up the tent on the slope and approach them still in daylight or thereabouts, and try to ask them not to camp on the hill. In this scenario probably the Dyatlov group didn't understand what is going on due to language difficulties etc., but it's clear they're being asked to leave, so they go down to the forest and start a fire and the Mansi leave and the rest could just be due to the cold at night and them trying to wait the situation out in the forest not knowing if the Mansi are still around or not..

The Mansi testimonies certainly seem somewhat suspicious, but this might just be due to how they were recorded at the time... They seem to answer questions they weren't asked, for example multiple of them state they didn't see the group or anyone else in the forest.... but have they ever been asked this? At the same time there are rumours that one Mansi indeed saw the group. And having seen them in and of itself would not be incriminating at all.. And then there are the telegrams from the searchers stating that the "keeping the Mansi involved is not necessary", I believe this was a toned down, polite version at the time of them being either seen as disruptive, demoralising or just plain unhelpful. Why? We might never know

I think the "we don't need the Mansi anymore" was a financial decision.  They were being paid a decent amount of money for each day of the search they participated.  As to their statements, many of them were using translators and that could add confusion to statements.  Plus, they live differently in some ways.  Like they didn't follow calendars to be able to give definitive dates; they keep track of time by weather and season and herding/hunting schedules and such.  That can add some confusion, as well.  Many of us take for granted that we would remember seeing people on a date or day of the week.   For them it was, middle of February when the storm was big, or things like that.  It comes across suspect but its a cultural difference.  As for seeing the hikers or not, there were a LOT of hiking groups going through the area then.  Atmanaki's group stayed with a Mansi overnight, which lead to searchers trying to figure out which group it was, whether it was the Dyatlov group so they could figure out where they were. 
But, any real conflict with the Mansi hinges on the Dyatlov group either being at a sacred place, which was not where they were, or supposedly stealing some relic, which the Mansi did not have to begin with.  By this time in the Soviet Union, religion was not accepted and the Mansi were not participating in any ceremonies anymore.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Manti on February 21, 2021, 08:41:45 PM
I think the "we don't need the Mansi anymore" was a financial decision.  They were being paid a decent amount of money for each day of the search they participated. 
Oh this is very interesting, I didn't know this.

By this time in the Soviet Union, religion was not accepted and the Mansi were not participating in any ceremonies anymore.
Yeah generally I agree with this, I don't think they participated in ceremonies. But I have to say it's not true in general that religion was not accepted, it was only "counterrevolutionary movements" that were not accepted, but "soviet-friendly" religions, or "the enemy of our enemy is our friend" ones were accepted and even encouraged, I don't know if mentioning specific examples is too politically charged for this forum?
And in any case I don't know where indigenous religions lie on this spectrum, although probably on the "counterrevolutionary" side based on what I've read about a former shaman being convicted.


Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: RMK on February 22, 2021, 04:36:21 PM
I don't believe for a second that the Mansi were involved in the deaths of the nine Dyatlov hikers, and for several reasons

First, no documented bloodshed between Mansi and Russian had occurred for a very long time--not within living memory, it would seem.

Second, as Ren remarked,
But, any real conflict with the Mansi hinges on the Dyatlov group either being at a sacred place, which was not where they were, or supposedly stealing some relic, which the Mansi did not have to begin with.
.  Her remark is consistent with written testimony found in the case files, for example (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-263),
Quote
There are no sacred mountains where we hunt, and according to the Mansi tales I know that it is in the upper sources of Vizhay river.  There are no sacred places in the upper sources of Lozva river. It is known that now Mansi do not go to pray in the prayer mountain, young people do not pray at all, and old Mansi pray at home.
; another example (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-225-226),
Quote
Mansi don't have a Prayer Mountain nowadays, I don't pray and I do not know of a Prayer Mountain. I don't believe it exists. Since the Mansi do not go to pray now, the elders pray at home, and the young ones do not pray at all.
.  If you search the main site for "prayer", you can find more written testimony in the case files, from both Mansi and Russians, explaining that any places that might be sacred to Mansi people are infrequently visited, and far away from where the DPI occurred anyhow.

Third, the hikers weren't doing anything that would really provoke any Mansi people.  By that, I mean the hikers weren't threatening anyone's livelihood.  They weren't bothering reindeer or sled dogs, they weren't shooting big game, and they weren't setting fur traps.

Fourth, the Mansi would have made very convenient scapegoats if the accusations of foul play had stuck.  Remember, the Mansi were and had been an ethnic minority, and more importantly, a religious minority.  In Tsarist Russia, their shamanistic tribal religion would have been condemned as "heathen idolatry!" by the Russian Orthodox Church (as well as by minority Christian churches, and by Muslim minority groups).  In Soviet Russia, their shamanistic tribal religion would have been condemned by the Communist Party as "ignorant, savage superstition!".  Which really brings me to my point: if the deaths of the 9 hikers could have been blamed on the Mansi, it would have been extremely valuable to the Party for propaganda purposes.  The Party could point to the Incident and say, "look at what horrible things primitive superstition inspires people to do!".  Certainly, that message would have endorsed heartily by loyal Communists.  But, as a bonus, it would also have resonated with the considerable number of Soviet citizens who still adhered (at least privately) to Christianity, or Islam.  Ethnic/religious prejudices did not evaporate from Russia in October, 1917.

Edit: remove redundant quote / link to case file.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 22, 2021, 04:49:23 PM
I don't believe for a second that the Mansi were involved in the deaths of the nine Dyatlov hikers, and for several reasons

First, no documented bloodshed between Mansi and Russian had occurred for a very long time--not within living memory, it would seem.

Second, as Ren remarked,
But, any real conflict with the Mansi hinges on the Dyatlov group either being at a sacred place, which was not where they were, or supposedly stealing some relic, which the Mansi did not have to begin with.
.  Her remark is consistent with written testimony found in the case files, for example (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-263),
Quote
There are no sacred mountains where we hunt, and according to the Mansi tales I know that it is in the upper sources of Vizhay river.  There are no sacred places in the upper sources of Lozva river. It is known that now Mansi do not go to pray in the prayer mountain, young people do not pray at all, and old Mansi pray at home.
; another example (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-225-226),
Quote
Mansi don't have a Prayer Mountain nowadays, I don't pray and I do not know of a Prayer Mountain. I don't believe it exists. Since the Mansi do not go to pray now, the elders pray at home, and the young ones do not pray at all.
; and another (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-225-226),
Quote
Mansi don't have a Prayer Mountain nowadays, I don't pray and I do not know of a Prayer Mountain. I don't believe it exists. Since the Mansi do not go to pray now, the elders pray at home, and the young ones do not pray at all.
.  If you search the main site for "prayer", you can find more written testimony in the case files, from both Mansi and Russians, explaining that any places that might be sacred to Mansi people are infrequently visited, and far away from where the DPI occurred anyhow.

Third, the hikers weren't doing anything that would really provoke any Mansi people.  By that, I mean the hikers weren't threatening anyone's livelihood.  They weren't bothering reindeer or sled dogs, they weren't shooting big game, and they weren't setting fur traps.

Fourth, the Mansi would have made very convenient scapegoats if the accusations of foul play had stuck.  Remember, the Mansi were and had been an ethnic minority, and more importantly, a religious minority.  In Tsarist Russia, their shamanistic tribal religion would have been condemned as "heathen idolatry!" by the Russian Orthodox Church (as well as by minority Christian churches, and by Muslim minority groups).  In Soviet Russia, their shamanistic tribal religion would have been condemned by the Communist Party as "ignorant, savage superstition!".  Which really brings me to my point: if the deaths of the 9 hikers could have been blamed on the Mansi, it would have been extremely valuable to the Party for propaganda purposes.  The Party could point to the Incident and say, "look at what horrible things primitive superstition inspires people to do!".  Certainly, that message would have endorsed heartily by loyal Communists.  But, as a bonus, it would also have resonated with the considerable number of Soviet citizens who still adhered (at least privately) to Christianity, or Islam.  Ethnic/religious prejudices did not evaporate from Russia in October, 1917.

You bring up a very interesting point that gave me a thought. (I absolutely admit i could be off base with this conclusion.). The Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Okrug is very rich in oil, natural gas, gold, coal, copper and zinc.  60% of Russian oil is produced there; not a small amount.  If the Mansi were to blame, the Soviet Union could have used that killing to control those resources completely.  Lesser wars have been started over oil... 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 22, 2021, 06:25:47 PM
Obviously if the mountain was sacred they would say it wasn't. I agree with the other points, though.

One interesting quote from the testimony of Anyamov Andrey Aleekseevich: "I personally never saw in the area another group of five people who are allegedly afraid of Mansi and who did not stay in Ivdel, I haven't heard such from other Mansi either."

Kurikov Grigoriy Nikolaevich denies seeing the unknown group, too.

I wonder what prompted the question.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 22, 2021, 11:26:19 PM
I've been making good progress on Rakitin's book, he has a forceful writing style but it's full of interesting details. His theory aligns with my murder hypothesis so there might be an element of confirmation bias. The cold war stuff is fascinating, I've enjoyed reading up on it and I'm convinced some of the hikers had complex agendas, but I have a couple of reservations about it being American spies:

- Rakitin is a knowledgeable military buff, and Russian, and there's a detectable anti-American sentiment (to be expected)... so it's no great surprise he reaches the conclusion it was American spies!

- At the core is the transfer of radioactive samples to agents, but it seems odd multiple items of clothing were radioactive. Each one increases the risk of being caught.

- American spies could mean anything, anyone could be trained as a spy. It could also be Russian agents killing them, if they were actually planning to hand it over.

- He prepares the ground by telling us lots of American spies are in Russia, including the story of Evgeny Golubev and several others, but my Google fu is failing to verify any of them.

- The story of first encounter isn't very convincing, although I can easily imagine other variations that might be... it doesn't matter as it's speculative.

- BUT, it seems odd the spies immediately go on a killing spree, and make no further effort to retrieve the clothing, given that's why they are there.

- And once you exclude the retrieval of the sample, it reduces to a group of people murdering the students, so it could be anyone. The only sure thing is they were skilled and ruthless killers.

Overall it's a good book, and might explain why they were killed. If it WAS spies, we might find out eventually as classified periods expire and political landscapes change...
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Manti on February 23, 2021, 01:39:20 PM
RMK, what you say, let me paraphrase is "the Mansi would have been blamed if it was possible to", because of all the benefits you mention.

The problem is, as it stands, based on all the available info, there is nothing incriminating the Mansi but also nothing disproving their involvement. I am not saying it was the Mansi (I don't think so myself), but the fact is, they could have been easily scapegoated and weren't. So that invalidates that argument.

In fact I think the hikers attitude to the Mansi is a good representation of the general one at the time... curiosity and fascination, with their signs, language, way of life. The Mansi were and are a minority but not a hated one.
- At the core is the transfer of radioactive samples to agents, but it seems odd multiple items of clothing were radioactive. E
I personally think this one is far fetched. A transfer takes 10 seconds and could have taken place anywhere, in a city in the comfort of a vehicle perhaps. There were no CCTVs back then and really there is absolutely no need to go to a remote and harsh area to meet, in fact it makes everything way more complicated also for the spies.

Not to mention that there wouldn't be much information to gain from a radioactive sample, the Americans' nuclear programme was more advanced. Maybe transferring stolen documents, that I can imagine, but then there's no explanation for the radioactivity.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 24, 2021, 05:03:41 AM
I personally think this one is far fetched. A transfer takes 10 seconds and could have taken place anywhere, in a city in the comfort of a vehicle perhaps. There were no CCTVs back then and really there is absolutely no need to go to a remote and harsh area to meet, in fact it makes everything way more complicated also for the spies.

Not to mention that there wouldn't be much information to gain from a radioactive sample, the Americans' nuclear programme was more advanced. Maybe transferring stolen documents, that I can imagine, but then there's no explanation for the radioactivity.

I think it's possible. America was desperate for information on Russia's atomic capability, there was a lot of paranoia (it's interesting to read up on the "bomber gap"). We were certainly sending a lot of surveillance planes over, but they'd need samples to study reactor efficiency or yield. BUT I haven't seen any stories before about spies on the ground retrieving them.

There was such a thing as a skyhook, which could be used if they dropped spies into the area and then retrieved them (and the samples) after the exchange, that would work in a remote scenario far better than a populated area, and it would answer the question I've been pondering how would they get them out of the country...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulton_surface-to-air_recovery_system

It's a bit far fetched, and let down by the poor imagining of first contact, I think there are other ways that could have played out... but it would explain the injuries, and the cover-up, and the motive. BUT why didn't they pick up the sample? It's a shame the DPI movie wasn't based on this scenario.

One thing it's made me consider... there's an increasing number of Westerners travelling to DP for sightseeing trips, even staying in tents on the same mountain; if Rakitin is right and WE were responsible, I could understand the locals not being best pleased.

p.s. Particularly interesting reading up on the B-47 Stratojet, superb performance for its day but 10% operational losses on an aircraft which carried nuclear bombs makes you stop and think. They even lost a couple of nukes in the ocean, and nukes nearly went up at Lakenheath and Greenham Common in the UK after B-47 crashes.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 24, 2021, 08:19:26 AM
I personally think this one is far fetched. A transfer takes 10 seconds and could have taken place anywhere, in a city in the comfort of a vehicle perhaps. There were no CCTVs back then and really there is absolutely no need to go to a remote and harsh area to meet, in fact it makes everything way more complicated also for the spies.

Not to mention that there wouldn't be much information to gain from a radioactive sample, the Americans' nuclear programme was more advanced. Maybe transferring stolen documents, that I can imagine, but then there's no explanation for the radioactivity.

I think it's possible. America was desperate for information on Russia's atomic capability, there was a lot of paranoia (it's interesting to read up on the "bomber gap"). We were certainly sending a lot of surveillance planes over, but they'd need samples to study reactor efficiency or yield. BUT I haven't seen any stories before about spies on the ground retrieving them.

There was such a thing as a skyhook, which could be used if they dropped spies into the area and then retrieved them (and the samples) after the exchange, that would work in a remote scenario far better than a populated area, and it would answer the question I've been pondering how would they get them out of the country...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulton_surface-to-air_recovery_system

It's a bit far fetched, and let down by the poor imagining of first contact, I think there are other ways that could have played out... but it would explain the injuries, and the cover-up, and the motive. BUT why didn't they pick up the sample? It's a shame the DPI movie wasn't based on this scenario.

One thing it's made me consider... there's an increasing number of Westerners travelling to DP for sightseeing trips, even staying in tents on the same mountain; if Rakitin is right and WE were responsible, I could understand the locals not being best pleased.

p.s. Particularly interesting reading up on the B-47 Stratojet, superb performance for its day but 10% operational losses on an aircraft which carried nuclear bombs makes you stop and think. They even lost a couple of nukes in the ocean, and nukes nearly went up at Lakenheath and Greenham Common in the UK after B-47 crashes.

My understanding, as an American.  The Atomic Peace Treaty, first proposed in 55, was an agreement that the Soviets and Americans would focus on nuclear energy rather than weapons.
 We both were okay with energy production because we both needed it.  Any spying aspect was about verifying how well each side was sticking to the agreement but neither side expected the other to stop working on weapons.  We wanted trace samples so that we could pinpoint where they were doing this, not necessarily glean information about yield or efficiency at that point.  Trace radioactive elements can have "fingerprints." The Americans wanted to know where all the nuclear plants were located so that they could "surprise" the Soviets by asking about those plants.  (The whole thing with Nixon asking to see a specific plant during his visit, which the Soviets didn't think he knew about, for instance.)

The "moratorium" was one of those things that no one really expected the other to follow with the caveat that it might put pressure on an aggressor by other countries if the threat of aggression became imminent.  Our government was not at all shocked when the Soviets were sending military aid to Cuba in what became The Bay of Pigs standoff.  We were surprised to find out in hindsight that the ships and such were *not* all loaded with nuclear weapons.  There is some history going way back that I think played a little bit here.  When the Allies were finally starting to turn the tide of war during WWII in 1943-44, Stalin had the deciding vote on which general would lead the European offensive (Supreme Commander of the Allied Expedition Forces...sounds more exciting than it was, lol!)  He chose Eisenhower over Churchill's choice of Montgomery.  When Eisenhower later became president In 1953, although one of his platforms was to "defeat" communism, I think he still felt he could work with Stalin but he was obviously apprehensive.  Within less than two months of Eisenhower's presidency, Stalin was dead, though.  While Eisenhower knew less about Kruschev, I think he assumed that both nations were just too tired from war at this point and that they could reach an agreement to just focus on other things (We were trying to wrap up the Korean War at this point and everyone was just getting tired.)  Nuclear fuel, the space race, infrastructure (he especially thought this would be a focus for the Soviets who had the war *in* their country for a while, as well as famine, the decimation of whole cities and regions due to German invasion...)  After the Soviets successfully tested an Atomic bomb in 1955, Eisenhower proposed the Atomic Peace Treaty, which allowed both countries to focus on nuclear energy, rather than a weapons race.  But, the US had already bulked their nuclear weapon supply substantially before 1955 so saying, "lets agree not to make more," still put the Soviets behind us which I can imagine would be frightening.  Here's a country that has said they want to "defeat" your government, they have a stockpile of weapons and now are saying we should agree not to make more to deter them from attacking us?  Anyhoo, the Soviets refused the 1955 treaty because they did not want to have outsiders coming in to do inspections (part of the proposal also called for open skies, which would let both countries fly over the other for visual inspections, also not agreeable by Kruschev.)  I don't blame Kruschev, to be honest. 

The fifties and early sixties were a time if great fear for Americans, Soviets and the countries watching us warily.  The two most aggressive kids on the block were getting more and more amped up and everyone would lose.  America, always trying to show the world that she was the "bigger person," kept trying to initiate these treaties that could not really be enforced by anyone and everyone knew we'd all just ignore them anyway.  So, we really turned to just trying to one up each other in terms of pointing out where each other's production facilities were located in the hopes that it would take time away from making weapons to move everything out of that facility and set up somewhere else.  It was like diplomatic whack-a-mole but with nuclear war at stake. 

The radiation at Dyatlov...I go back and forth like so many things here, lol.  I honestly believe at my heart that, while it may not have been what led to the group's demise, there is still something with it in that it should not be there.  Several of the searchers got sick and blamed the pass.  For two, the implication was cancer.  For another, it was stated as "ill health."  It really does make you wonder...
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 24, 2021, 09:19:18 AM
Cheers, very interesting post.

Just imagine what it must have been like flying surveillance missions over Russia in a B-47 or British Canberra. The SAMs (and MIGs) couldn't reach you last time, but maybe now they've got something new... they launch and you just have to wait and see how close it gets!

The skyhook though, that would have to come in at tree top level over the North pole hugging the Urals, that's crazy James Bond stuff. This scenario would make such a great movie, if only they hadn't butchered everyone!

I'm reading Firefox Down in parallel to the DPI stuff, it's quite good at firing up the imagination while thinking about these scenarios. I hope it wasn't just a boring accident.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 24, 2021, 09:35:37 AM
Cheers, very interesting post.

Just imagine what it must have been like flying surveillance missions over Russia in a B-47 or British Canberra. The SAMs (and MIGs) couldn't reach you last time, but maybe now they've got something new... they launch and you just have to wait and see how close it gets!

The skyhook though, that would have to come in at tree top level over the North pole hugging the Urals, that's crazy James Bond stuff. This scenario would make such a great movie, if only they hadn't butchered everyone!

I'm reading Firefox Down in parallel to the DPI stuff, it's quite good at firing up the imagination while thinking about these scenarios. I hope it wasn't just a boring accident.

I will check into reading that! 

When I read about things people have done historically, like flying spy planes over sketchy areas, I don't know if I could ever have that much courage, lol!!  Or with the fledgling space programs, going into space not really knowing if you would make it back but knowing no one could ever rescue you...crazy!!!  I do a lot of reading and following of high altitude climbing.  When in the death zone of Everest, if you start failing, no one can really do anything to help you.  Your body can not be retrieved.  There are bodies of climbers that are used as way points.  People who climb Mt Everest know that they have a strong chance of dying, even if they do everything right; high altitude sickness can strike without notice, cerebral edema, pulmonary edema, and bam, you go down.  As much as being at the very top of the world sounds intriguing, that's crazy, lol!!  I've done some really sketchy stuff in my misspent youth but that's a whole lot of nope, lol!!

I do love learning about spy craft and spying attempts.  I think the fifties and sixties were probably the most exciting time for it, and probably the nuttiest, lol!  But you try just about anything to ensure your people are safe, I suppose.  I recently watched a movie that took place in 1962, Soviet and American intelligence during a chess match between two grand masters in Poland which happened at the very same time as the Bay of Pigs Crisis.  I don't know how accurate or real it was but it was an intense and fun watch.  It had Bill Pullman and Lotte Verbeek but I don't remember the name off hand.  It was a good watch, though!!!
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 24, 2021, 09:55:12 AM
The book is pretty good. I like the original Firefox movie, the first half is a great spy film and the second half is a great action movie. The special effects look dated now but it's still fun.

I'm watching Bridge of Spies tonight, which is about the U2 incident.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: MDGross on February 24, 2021, 10:26:59 AM
As KFINN writes, the Cold War was reaching its height in 1959. Some sort of espionage scenario is certainly plausible. Zolotaryov's brother was executed during WWII for aiding the Germans. That family stain surely followed Zolotaryov around after the war. Perhaps American operatives had agreed to get him out of the country. In return, he would give the CIA stolen documents hidden in his backpack. After his death, these documents were found and removed by the military.  I don't know what when wrong and why the Dyatlov group was killed. Some people on Russian-language forums blame the CIA. Others blame the KGB. Quite far-fetched I grant you. But, when considering the Dyatlov tragedy, it's difficult and maybe a mistake to ignore the political atmosphere of the time.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: sarapuk on February 24, 2021, 10:37:51 AM
Just as matter of interest shouldnt this post re ; DPI noob be somewhere else  !  ? I
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 24, 2021, 10:46:06 AM
Just as matter of interest shouldnt this post re ; DPI noob be somewhere else  !  ? I

Quite possibly but I'm not sure where.  We've been covering a lot of ideas and such as one theory morphs into another.  I think too its interesting to see added information as Ash73 reports on each book as its read. 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 24, 2021, 11:10:45 AM
I'm just using this thread to record my journey if that's ok, as I read various books and my ideas evolve. I'm dipping into various theories as the interest takes me.

I'll contribute on the detailed theory threads where I can, but I doubt I'll add much original thought everyone's done such a great job already exploring the options.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 24, 2021, 06:54:40 PM
I'm just using this thread to record my journey if that's ok, as I read various books and my ideas evolve. I'm dipping into various theories as the interest takes me.

I'll contribute on the detailed theory threads where I can, but I doubt I'll add much original thought everyone's done such a great job already exploring the options.

I personally have not yet been able to read Rakitin (translation issues,) and I have appreciated both you and Missi discussing your impressions and such! 

One thing that strikes me in our spy craft discussions (and please forgive; my humor is often very macabre and I am so sorry!!!) What happened to the days of creative espionage like the fifties and sixties??  Litvinenko's assassins, although eventually successful, wandered around England with a leaking canister of polonium.  What happened to taking pride in your craft, guys, lol??!!  At least with Dyatlov, if any of them *were* spies, the fact that we still can't prove it shows that they must have been competent! 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: RMK on February 25, 2021, 04:56:19 PM
I personally have not yet been able to read Rakitin (translation issues,)
What sort of translation issues?  If you want to read Rakitin's commercially published book, unfortunately, its only translation from Russian is the German edition (AFAIK).  But Rakitin's essay (i.e., what he [they?] posted online about 10 years ago) dwells here (http://murders.ru/Dyat_gr_1.html).  As it's electronic text, it can easily be automatically translated by your translation machine of choice.

Russian-to-English machine translation still has some common defects.  Those include getting the gender of personal pronouns wrong, using impersonal pronouns for persons, and getting the subject and direct object of a sentence completely backwards.

Modern translation machines typically exhibit some other pathological behaviors from time to time, irrespective of the original or target language.  One is that, if they don't recognize a word in the original language, they might assume it is a misspelling of a similarly spelled word, and translate that.  Another is that they might get "stuck in a loop" and repeat themselves over and over in their output.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 25, 2021, 05:08:47 PM
I just ran all of it through Google translate, collated it into a single Word document and I've been manually tidying it up as I read it. I've ended up with a pretty good pdf of the whole thing.

It's well worth reading for the cold war book-within-a-book, it's sent me down numerous rabbit-holes on Google!
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 25, 2021, 05:46:10 PM
I've got through a bit more of Rakitin's book today.

I'm suspicious about the backtrack the day before they died, and why they set off so late after making the labaz, it shouldn't take 4-5 hours to dig a small hole for a few supplies. Rakitin suggests Kolevatov was stalling because they were ahead of schedule, but I think something else was going on.

Zina kept her diary religiously so it's very odd she stopped on Jan 30 and doesn't mention any of this.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 25, 2021, 06:16:49 PM
I personally have not yet been able to read Rakitin (translation issues,)
What sort of translation issues?  If you want to read Rakitin's commercially published book, unfortunately, its only translation from Russian is the German edition (AFAIK).  But Rakitin's essay (i.e., what he [they?] posted online about 10 years ago) dwells here (http://murders.ru/Dyat_gr_1.html).  As it's electronic text, it can easily be automatically translated by your translation machine of choice.

Russian-to-English machine translation still has some common defects.  Those include getting the gender of personal pronouns wrong, using impersonal pronouns for persons, and getting the subject and direct object of a sentence completely backwards.

Modern translation machines typically exhibit some other pathological behaviors from time to time, irrespective of the original or target language.  One is that, if they don't recognize a word in the original language, they might assume it is a misspelling of a similarly spelled word, and translate that.  Another is that they might get "stuck in a loop" and repeat themselves over and over in their output.

I access most things from my tablet and in order to translate anything, I have to go to Google translate and enter it in a paragraph at a time.  The browser for this tablet doesn't have a translate function.  I'm certain there is probably an app or something I could use but I am so woefully illiterate with technology anymore.  I worked my way through college in an IT department but now, I'm so lost with technology that it isn't funny, lol!!  If I could find a program to auto translate, I'm pretty good at deciphering when the translate is funky.  I have to do that with translations on Scandinavian grave finds.  Sometimes the translation is hysterical, some times it just takes a little creative... synonym-ing ;)  At one time I had basic German but that is long gone, sadly (the narcoleptic brain ditches anything it doesn't use regularly.) So, I kind of have to learn vicariously through those who can access or read Rakitin until I can figure out an app or work around that won't be so time intensive :(
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 25, 2021, 06:22:09 PM
I've got through a bit more of Rakitin's book today.

I'm suspicious about the backtrack the day before they died, and why they set off so late after making the labaz, it shouldn't take 4-5 hours to dig a small hole for a few supplies. Rakitin suggests Kolevatov was stalling because they were ahead of schedule, but I think something else was going on.

Zina kept her diary religiously so it's very odd she stopped on Jan 30 and doesn't mention any of this.

I've always wondered about that, as well.  It seems so anathema to how this group operated.  They seemed to be quite efficient as far as how they budgeted their energy/movement.  The turn around and late start just never fit in my mind.  I know they talked about getting late starts when they didn't want to get out of the warm tent but even those were leaving camp at like 10 am.  Why bother with a three hour late afternoon hike?  Why wouldn't they have taken the remainder of the day for their rest day and set out fresh the next morning? 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 26, 2021, 01:53:04 AM
I've got through a bit more of Rakitin's book today.

I'm suspicious about the backtrack the day before they died, and why they set off so late after making the labaz, it shouldn't take 4-5 hours to dig a small hole for a few supplies. Rakitin suggests Kolevatov was stalling because they were ahead of schedule, but I think something else was going on.

Zina kept her diary religiously so it's very odd she stopped on Jan 30 and doesn't mention any of this.

I've always wondered about that, as well.  It seems so anathema to how this group operated.  They seemed to be quite efficient as far as how they budgeted their energy/movement.  The turn around and late start just never fit in my mind.  I know they talked about getting late starts when they didn't want to get out of the warm tent but even those were leaving camp at like 10 am.  Why bother with a three hour late afternoon hike?  Why wouldn't they have taken the remainder of the day for their rest day and set out fresh the next morning?

I can imagine if Dyatlov wanted to push them he might say let's go up the slope and get used to camping above the treeline while we're still within reach of the forest, but it can't have taken more than an hour or so to dig the labaz, let's say they started at 8:30am they'd be finished by 10am, but they didn't set off until about 2pm, what were they doing the rest of the time? All that time to update their diaries... and nothing.

And why take the stove, and no firewood? Some searchers said it was packed with wood, others it only contained the chimney, either way they'd need extra, but they can't have walked a mile down the mountain barefoot with no tools to get it. Nothing makes sense.

Someone hurry up and build a time machine, so we can find out.

Speaking of which... I see there's a Dr Who story about Dyatlov Pass!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il1tTpBrtwI
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 26, 2021, 07:24:14 AM
I've got through a bit more of Rakitin's book today.

I'm suspicious about the backtrack the day before they died, and why they set off so late after making the labaz, it shouldn't take 4-5 hours to dig a small hole for a few supplies. Rakitin suggests Kolevatov was stalling because they were ahead of schedule, but I think something else was going on.

Zina kept her diary religiously so it's very odd she stopped on Jan 30 and doesn't mention any of this.

I've always wondered about that, as well.  It seems so anathema to how this group operated.  They seemed to be quite efficient as far as how they budgeted their energy/movement.  The turn around and late start just never fit in my mind.  I know they talked about getting late starts when they didn't want to get out of the warm tent but even those were leaving camp at like 10 am.  Why bother with a three hour late afternoon hike?  Why wouldn't they have taken the remainder of the day for their rest day and set out fresh the next morning?

I can imagine if Dyatlov wanted to push them he might say let's go up the slope and get used to camping above the treeline while we're still within reach of the forest, but it can't have taken more than an hour or so to dig the labaz, let's say they started at 8:30am they'd be finished by 10am, but they didn't set off until about 2pm, what were they doing the rest of the time? All that time to update their diaries... and nothing.

And why take the stove, and no firewood? Some searchers said it was packed with wood, others it only contained the chimney, either way they'd need extra, but they can't have walked a mile down the mountain barefoot with no tools to get it. Nothing makes sense.

Someone hurry up and build a time machine, so we can find out.

Speaking of which... I see there's a Dr Who story about Dyatlov Pass!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il1tTpBrtwI

OMG!  How did I never see that before???!!!!!   
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 26, 2021, 08:21:12 AM
It would an interesting paradox if you went back in the Tardis to save them, and they saw it materialise next to the tent and ran down the slope in a panic. Oops... my bad.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 26, 2021, 09:34:45 AM
It would an interesting paradox if you went back in the Tardis to save them, and they saw it materialise next to the tent and ran down the slope in a panic. Oops... my bad.

Oh, no kidding!!  Kind of like how the Tardis initiated Mt. Vesuvius!  This show, while so fun and cheeky and such, really can be heartbreaking!  And very, very deep.  I've made it through the truck ride to Vizhay but listening has been slow going, today.  I really love how much attention the writer has paid to the personalities of the Dyatlov group!   On one hand, I am really enjoying it!  On the other, I know what ultimately happens to the group.  I'd be the worst companion; I'd screw everything up, never stop trying to change things and I'd wind up a bawling, heaping mass of heart break.  I also have a fascination with angel statues and I'd probably be gone in minutes, lol! 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: RMK on February 26, 2021, 12:48:01 PM
I access most things from my tablet and in order to translate anything, I have to go to Google translate and enter it in a paragraph at a time.  The browser for this tablet doesn't have a translate function.
Ah, I understand.  This site (http://russiantours.online/posts/3164179) might be of use to you then.  It's a machine translation of Rakitin's work, although it's not attributed to him/them, and I don't know how similar it is to the book or to the essay on murders.ru.  In particular, its chapter names and numbers don't correspond that well to those of the murders.ru essay or the German edition of the book (I couldn't find the book's Russian table of contents online).  The translation looks pretty rough, too ("woodpeckers" ahoy!).

Reading Rakitin got me to take homicide theories of the DPI seriously (though I have some problems (https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=744.0) with them as well).  But, I don't buy his elaborate cloak-and-dagger plot about transferring radioactive clothes to foreign spies in the middle of the wilderness.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 26, 2021, 02:26:56 PM
Thank you both for helping me out with Rakitin!! 

Ash73, I have a question for you.  I'm not far into Rakitin yet, obviously.  I know it is generally accepted that Dyatlov and Zina were supposedly dating.  Rakitin mentions it at the beginning, several times, and calls it mutual courtship.  The origin of this is that Igor had Zina's picture in his diary.  The only other evidence that is widely given is Zina's comment in her diary that Igor was being rude and she "hardly recognized him." My personal take on this is somewhat different.  A few sentences before in Zina's diary, she said all of the guys were being rude so she was ignoring them.  I take her comments about Igor to be in that vein; he was being a smart alec and so she wasn't recognizing him (ignoring him.)  I understand not everyone perceives it the same.  I also read her letters to her friends and while she gushed on at length about Yuri, her only mention of Igor is that he is always stuck with his nose in a book and no girls are interested in him (that was a letter to a friend sent right before the hike started...its on the main website here but I don't remember off hand which friend.  I will have to look it back up.). In her hiking diary, she's almost always talking about Rustem; he's teaching her to play the mandolin, they are doing watches together, they sat together to wait for others to catch up... 

What do you think?  It is obvious Yuri broke her heart.  You can feel her sorrow when talking about him.  But I just don't get anything from her on Igor and other than the picture, I don't get anything *from* Igor, either.  Just curious what your thoughts are?  I think the only time it would really matter would be in the case of internal fighting in the group, either as a catalyst event or a stressful response to whatever happened.  Part of me feels like we read way too much into it and part of me just wants Zina to have been happy in love before she died. 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 26, 2021, 07:50:03 PM
I think Igor was definitely interested in Zina, he wouldn't carry her photo otherwise. Guys don't talk about stuff like that in diaries anyhow.

Zina might have dated him briefly after she split from Yuri, she will have managed her relationship with him carefully because he was the leader, but I think she was still interested in Yuri.

She seemed to spend a lot of time with Rustem, too. And it was Igor, Rustem and Zina who looked to have been in a fight with someone.  I find it very strange to see a woman with fight injuries.

I also think George was interested in Lyuda, there's a photo of him with his arm around her and two of the guys are making fun of it next to them.

There's enough there to create complexity in the group, I'm surprised books dismiss it so easily.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 26, 2021, 08:03:44 PM
I think Igor was definitely interested in Zina, he wouldn't carry her photo otherwise. Guys don't talk about stuff like that in diaries anyhow.

Zina might have dated him briefly after she split from Yuri, she will have managed her relationship with him carefully because he was the leader, but I think she was still interested in Yuri.

She seemed to spend a lot of time with Rustem, too. And it was Igor, Rustem and Zina who looked to have been in a fight with someone.  I find it very strange to see a woman with fight injuries.

I also think George was interested in Lyuda, there's a photo of him with his arm around her and two of the guys are making fun of it next to them.

There's enough there to create complexity in the group, I'm surprised books dismiss it so easily.

Much complexity, yes!!  I know that Thibo's family mentioned thinking he was fond of Lyuda. There is a kind of comfort from seeing the relationships like this; it's a common thing for modern college age young people to be interested in those in their peer group (and to change their interests, lol!) so it makes them feel more real, to me.  I read Zina's letters and she just seems like...I don't want to say "boy crazy" but like a normal young woman who is excited about her prospective relationships.  Its sweet!  But the personal relationships can effect the dynamics, although they also seemed good about trying to keep those dynamics at bay during hikes, for the good of the group. 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 26, 2021, 09:48:22 PM
Reading Rakitin got me to take homicide theories of the DPI seriously (though I have some problems (https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=744.0) with them as well).  But, I don't buy his elaborate cloak-and-dagger plot about transferring radioactive clothes to foreign spies in the middle of the wilderness.

You ask a good question in that thread.

"If the DPI was really homicide, but the killers wanted to make it not look like homicide, why didn't they stage or fabricate some non-homicide reason why the hikers exited their tent and subsequently abandoned it?  For example, why didn't the killers manipulate the campsite to make it look like a tent fire or a small avalanche had occurred?"

There isn't a good answer, so perhaps it wasn't their objective.

I'd suggest two possible scenarios:

(a) They weren't trying to kill them only remove them from the scene.
The motive wasn't robbery, money and alcohol were left in the tent. It could be to retrieve camera(s) or something else in the tent (something stolen, or of use to spies), or to eject them from sacred ground (but most think it wasn't sacred), and they didn't anticipate them failing to return due to an accident in the ravine.

(b) They weren't trying to hide it was murder, only who was responsible.
Maybe they thought ejecting them from the tent and removing their warm clothes was the most efficient way to kill them, saves ammunition and minimises risk of identification... but it didn't work because they made a fire, so they had to go after them.

There's physical evidence someone else was there - cut ski pole, puttees, mansi belt, broken ski, 5cm branches can't be cut with pocket knives, etc.

I agree Rakitin's theory is far-fetched, two major problems with it:

1. Why would there be multiple clothes samples with radioactivity, each one adds risk. Only reason I can think of is they were used to wrap something else.

2. Instant switch from sample retrieval to killing spree is illogical, why make no further effort to retrieve the sample if that was their primary mission.

Also, how would the spies get it out of the country? The skyhook is fun but pure Hollywood, there's no way a slow transport aircraft could penetrate 1500km of Soviet airspace. They'd have to get it to the coast and rendezvous with a sub.

I think his description of events near the cedar/ravine is quite good though, he manages to include a lot of the evidence lying around in a logical sequence.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 26, 2021, 09:58:02 PM
p.s. it's odd Rakitin says the wind was blowing UP the slope, I assume that's a mistake, every book I've read so far has a different description of the weather - everything from mild, still conditions to freezing cold, hurricanes and lethal wind chill; and they all put the ravine in different places too.

I'd love to see a proper map of everything, including their route and how far they got each day, and where they were planning to go next.

And if we don't know what the weather was doing, we've got no chance.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 27, 2021, 03:54:25 AM
Well, Rakitin left me totally confused, albeit after a very enjoyable (and mad) cold war diversion. I didn't understand the hikers' route, why they had slowed so much Jan 31 - Feb 01, why there was a delay at the labaz, why there was no information in the diaries, and why they camped on an exposed mountain.

Bit of a breakthrough today... I've started reading Clark Wilkins - A Compelling Unknown Force, and in the first 60-70 pages he's given an interesting background to the hikers and answered all those questions logically. Oddly he's done it without any illustrations, so I'm going to plot some of it on a map to check it, but if you're asking yourself those questions his book is worth a try.

I expect the second half will spin off into another crazy theory, but at least I feel comfortable now about what the heck they were doing the day before disaster hit.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 27, 2021, 08:05:28 AM
Well, Rakitin left me totally confused, albeit after a very enjoyable (and mad) cold war diversion. I didn't understand the hikers' route, why they had slowed so much Jan 31 - Feb 01, why there was a delay at the labaz, why there was no information in the diaries, and why they camped on an exposed mountain.

Bit of a breakthrough today... I've started reading Clark Wilkins - A Compelling Unknown Force, and in the first 60-70 pages he's given an interesting background to the hikers and answered all those questions logically. Oddly he's done it without any illustrations, so I'm going to plot some of it on a map to check it, but if you're asking yourself those questions his book is worth a try.

I expect the second half will spin off into another crazy theory, but at least I feel comfortable now about what the heck they were doing the day before disaster hit.

I have strong opinions about Wilkins conclusion but he does make some things more clear.  I will really be curious of your thoughts on this one!!!

I'm really looking forward to the cold war stuff with Rakitin!! 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 27, 2021, 12:15:07 PM
I have strong opinions about Wilkins conclusion but he does make some things more clear.  I will really be curious of your thoughts on this one!!!

I'm really looking forward to the cold war stuff with Rakitin!!

Very interesting book, 200 pages of light reading is my cup of tea, more relaxing than 500 pages of Rakitin's forceful prose!

I particularly liked the route planning and how they navigated, and there were some good maps towards the end of the book, it's answered a LOT of questions for me. I also like how he approaches things from a different angle, e.g. the point of view of the guide during the search.

I was a bit worried when he hinted at a supernatural entity in the tent (not sure why he even did that), but his walkthrough of subsequent events is pretty good. Igor/Rustem fight is plausible, avalanche causing a fall into the ravine and chest injuries... also plausible.

And the stove. It answers a lot of questions - the nurse saying the bodies were "dirty", cuts in the tent, the tent being pitched the wrong way round so wind got through the flaps and re-ignited embers, the need to evacuate, the snow on the tent, the lantern, and the stove actually being used that night explains a lot.

Of course the big question is, could they really not get stuff out of the tent? I can imagine the panic, they would be overcome by smoke, and it would be tricky to remove the stove, but would they not realise they will die without clothes and tools? Or were they so cold by then, they just had to move?

I'm satisfied the book explains why the tent was on the slope, and why they got delayed, which were the exact questions I had yesterday! It makes more sense than a tent-in-the-woods scenario imo, because the separation explains how Igor and Zina died with only minor injuries.

Overall I like it because it's simple, and a sequence of small mistakes leading to disaster is realistic, and it knits the evidence together pretty well. One small criticism, it's possible they had a sip of vodka to warm up, but I don't believe they would drink enough to affect their judgement.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 27, 2021, 12:33:39 PM
I have strong opinions about Wilkins conclusion but he does make some things more clear.  I will really be curious of your thoughts on this one!!!

I'm really looking forward to the cold war stuff with Rakitin!!

Very interesting book, 200 pages of light reading is my cup of tea, more relaxing than 500 pages of Rakitin's forceful prose!

I particularly liked the route planning and how they navigated, and there were some good maps towards the end of the book, it's answered a LOT of questions for me. I also like how he approaches things from a different angle, e.g. the point of view of the guide during the search.

I was a bit worried when he hinted at a supernatural entity in the tent (not sure why he even did that), but his walkthrough of subsequent events is pretty good. Igor/Rustem fight is plausible, avalanche causing a fall into the ravine and chest injuries... also plausible.

And the stove. It answers a lot of questions - the nurse saying the bodies were "dirty", cuts in the tent, the tent being pitched the wrong way round so wind got through the flaps and re-ignited embers, the need to evacuate, the snow on the tent, the lantern, and the stove actually being used that night explains a lot.

Of course the big question is, could they really not get stuff out of the tent? I can imagine the panic, they would be overcome by smoke, and it would be tricky to remove the stove, but would they not realise they will die without clothes and tools? Or were they so cold by then, they just had to move?

I'm satisfied the book explains why the tent was on the slope, and why they got delayed, which were the exact questions I had yesterday! It makes more sense than a tent-in-the-woods scenario imo, because the separation explains how Igor and Zina died with only minor injuries.

Overall I like it because it's simple, and a sequence of small mistakes leading to disaster is realistic, and it knits the evidence together pretty well. One small criticism, it's possible they had a sip of vodka to warm up, but I don't believe they would drink enough to affect their judgement.

My only really complaint is the stove part.  It wasn't used for cooking; it wasn't built that way.  But some of those details weren't really well known until more recently.  Its amazing the amount of info that is still coming out every year!  At first while I didn't care for him changing events by adding the guide as the one to discover everything, it made the story flow nicely!! 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 27, 2021, 01:16:39 PM
Yes it reads quite well almost like a novel, makes it easier to digest all the facts. Quite poignant how he summed it up by saying they all died the moment the tent was cut; it didn't matter what they did from then on.

The stove's debateable, but I think it probably has the least problems of the theories I've read so far. I just need to mull it over a bit more.

It's amusing I was baffled by the route, delays and diaries and the very next book I picked up explained them all perfectly!
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 28, 2021, 12:57:41 AM
Surprised there isn't more discussion about Wilkins' book on the forum, maybe an accidental scenario is not glamorous enough... but the navigation details answer a lot of questions that keep coming up - why was the tent on the slope, etc.

It made me realise the weather was worse than I thought that night, and also the previous day. It wasn't a calm night where murderers and spies could meet up and chase after one another, it was a freezing cold blizzard with deadly windchill.

It's obvious when you look at the photos from just a few hours before.

(https://i.ibb.co/XzSw36P/01.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/ccc7pkm/02.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

I couldn't understand why they lugged the stove up the mountain, above the tree line, with no firewood. Of course the answer is obvious, they DID have firewood and they used it. And I can easily imagine a stove incident in those conditions, if they packed away the chimney.

It explains the satirical newspaper, why the tent was collapsed, unfastened guy lines, snow heaped on the tent, cuts in the tent, why they abandoned it so quickly, why the group split, why there was a fight, Yuri's pulmonary edema, why the bodies were dirty, etc.

Also the lack of diary entries, they were too exhausted to fill out their personal diaries after side-stepping up the slope, and the group diary was their official record for the qualification so they didn't mention the navigation shortcuts and adjustments they were making.

Imagine jumping out of a warm tent into those conditions, it would be horrendous. How long would they stay there trying to clear the tent? They probably thought we've got to find shelter and build a fire, then return later, but the fire didn't work... it was too exposed, took too long to get going, they couldn't gather enough wood, and they froze.

You can argue they would have grabbed more clothes, but it made no difference to the outcome. You could also question why a cover-up, it's probably because of who they were (the very details that point us in the wrong direction towards spy theories), and the fact nobody could explain what happened.

If this scenario is the answer, they had no chance of survival but look how hard they tried. Great book, it's made me re-think. One more step down the rabbit-hole... I'm sure the next one will do the same!
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 28, 2021, 08:48:50 AM
Surprised there isn't more discussion about Wilkins' book on the forum, maybe an accidental scenario is not glamorous enough... but the navigation details answer a lot of questions that keep coming up - why was the tent on the slope, etc.

It made me realise the weather was worse than I thought that night, and also the previous day. It wasn't a calm night where murderers and spies could meet up and chase after one another, it was a freezing cold blizzard with deadly windchill.

It's obvious when you look at the photos from just a few hours before.

(https://i.ibb.co/XzSw36P/01.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/ccc7pkm/02.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

I couldn't understand why they lugged the stove up the mountain, above the tree line, with no firewood. Of course the answer is obvious, they DID have firewood and they used it. And I can easily imagine a stove incident in those conditions, if they packed away the chimney.

It explains the satirical newspaper, why the tent was collapsed, unfastened guy lines, snow heaped on the tent, cuts in the tent, why they abandoned it so quickly, why the group split, why there was a fight, Yuri's pulmonary edema, why the bodies were dirty, etc.

Also the lack of diary entries, they were too exhausted to fill out their personal diaries after side-stepping up the slope, and the group diary was their official record for the qualification so they didn't mention the navigation shortcuts and adjustments they were making.

Imagine jumping out of a warm tent into those conditions, it would be horrendous. How long would they stay there trying to clear the tent? They probably thought we've got to find shelter and build a fire, then return later, but the fire didn't work... it was too exposed, took too long to get going, they couldn't gather enough wood, and they froze.

You can argue they would have grabbed more clothes, but it made no difference to the outcome. You could also question why a cover-up, it's probably because of who they were (the very details that point us in the wrong direction towards spy theories), and the fact nobody could explain what happened.

If this scenario is the answer, they had no chance of survival but look how hard they tried. Great book, it's made me re-think. One more step down the rabbit-hole... I'm sure the next one will do the same!

Your last paragraph especially is spot on.  Leaving the tent cemented their destiny but they fought hard to stay alive.  These guys were very experienced and actually pretty logical thinkers (for the engineers, that seems to be a prerequisite, lol!!)  They were always problem solving in unique ways; to build radios for shorter hikes, to make better equipment, even the stove or the way that they figured out how to blaze their trail on the hike when the snow conditions weren't optimal. 

I think the stove part lost Wilkins credibility with people (which is too bad because there is so much more in the book,) just because it seemed illogical.  The stove wasn't used to cook.  It wasn't possibly to cook with it; it was basically a muffler design that was suspended from the ridge rope of the tent.  But, they wouldn't have put it all together and suspended it just to use it for a short time and then stash it away for the night.  It took over an hour to assemble and a fair amount of time for the fire to die down and it too cool enough to be disassembled and stowed.  I'm also not certain why you'd only heat it for a short time when you'd want it for the whole night.  That would throw off your cold acclimation. 

The weather on that particular night is debated.  There are a lot of witness statements in the case files that it was really bad in Ivdel, Polochnoe and around the region.  The pictures certainly show storm conditions.  They had had unseasonably warm days up until that point, which could indicate severe weather change coming.  But a recent analysis of weather conditions then said there wasn't anything unusual.  I feel there was a storm and the winds on the ridge were already legendary.  I think weather had an integral role in the events, although the how changes daily for me, lol!  This poor group, it just seems that whatever happened, it was a perfect storm of dominoes going down :(
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on February 28, 2021, 09:03:10 AM
How are you getting on with Rakitin? I appreciate there's a lot to get through. His book is the only one I jumped around while reading, I left the cold war stuff to the end because I wanted to read what he thought happened on the night first.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on February 28, 2021, 09:24:42 AM
How are you getting on with Rakitin? I appreciate there's a lot to get through. His book is the only one I jumped around while reading, I left the cold war stuff to the end because I wanted to read what he thought happened on the night first.

I haven't gotten as far as I'd like, to be honest.  Yesterday, I lost almost all of my reading time to family stuff but I did have a tele show on for background noise that was on spy craft through the years.  Now, I'm really anxious to get back to reading him tonight, lol!!
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on March 01, 2021, 08:17:00 AM
Here's a quick summary of the books I've read so far, in order of preference... thought it might be useful for other newbies:

Clark Wilkins - A Compelling Unknown Force
- easy to digest, excellent details on the route navigation and a simple and elegant solution (imo), but it doesn't seem to ignite most people's interest

Donnie Eichar - Dead Mountain
- American film producer visits Dyatlov Pass in the present day in parallel to recounting the story of the hikers, and proposes an interesting scientific theory

Aleksei Rakitin - Death Following the Trail
- 500 pages of forceful Russian prose about a spy story that will excite any military buff interested in the cold war, fascinating but far fetched, can be translated online

Svetlana Oss - Dont Go There
- Good exploration of the murderous Mansi (or killer Khanty!) theory, most people think it unlikely but it made me think twice

Keith **** - Mountain of the Dead
- Ok summary, but it deep-dives into a daft theory about supernatural lights firing energy beams so I lost interest
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on March 01, 2021, 08:56:50 AM
An angry bear is my Dad's favourite theory, I've been telling him all about the DPI and he's getting quite interested, he was born the same year as Igor.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on March 01, 2021, 09:20:45 AM
An angry bear is my Dad's favourite theory, I've been telling him all about the DPI and he's getting quite interested, he was born the same year as Igor.

That's really cool!!  Its awesome to be able to tap into that generation, even if they are from another country, the insight is still invaluable!!  I don't think my family understands my obsession but they do allow me to drone on and on about it, at least.  I wish my father were in better health as I think he'd really get into it.  He was a professor of American History, with a focus on WWII and after and also loved mysteries.  My mom similarly would geek on it but both of my parents have very bad health and limited time. 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: Manti on March 01, 2021, 06:39:37 PM
The weather on that particular night is debated.  There are a lot of witness statements in the case files that it was really bad in Ivdel, Polochnoe and around the region.  The pictures certainly show storm conditions.  They had had unseasonably warm days up until that point, which could indicate severe weather change coming.  But a recent analysis of weather conditions then said there wasn't anything unusual.  I feel there was a storm and the winds on the ridge were already legendary.  I think weather had an integral role in the events, although the how changes daily for me, lol!  This poor group, it just seems that whatever happened, it was a perfect storm of dominoes going down :(

Usually it's considerably warmer (~10C difference) during heavy snowfall than in sunny weather, I think this would apply even in the Urals; seems like so from looking at more recent weather there.

Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on March 02, 2021, 09:28:40 AM
The weather on that particular night is debated.  There are a lot of witness statements in the case files that it was really bad in Ivdel, Polochnoe and around the region.  The pictures certainly show storm conditions.  They had had unseasonably warm days up until that point, which could indicate severe weather change coming.  But a recent analysis of weather conditions then said there wasn't anything unusual.  I feel there was a storm and the winds on the ridge were already legendary.  I think weather had an integral role in the events, although the how changes daily for me, lol!  This poor group, it just seems that whatever happened, it was a perfect storm of dominoes going down :(

Usually it's considerably warmer (~10C difference) during heavy snowfall than in sunny weather, I think this would apply even in the Urals; seems like so from looking at more recent weather there.

My friend, while you are most probably right, can you share this with Mother Nature?  We just went from 40F with sun to a -13F wind chill and heavy snow in less than 24 hours and I'm really just ready for something consistent, lol!!!! 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on March 04, 2021, 03:24:27 PM
The temperature is much lower at night with a clear sky (water vapour in clouds is a much better insulator than CO2!). Think of the frost you get on your car windscreen in the morning after a clear winter night... But wind chill is the issue, it's critical to know what the wind speed was that night, and also visibility.

Regards books, Igor Pavlov & Teodora Hadjiyska - 1079 is up next, I've saved the best 'till last!
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on March 06, 2021, 04:37:39 AM
Regards books, Igor Pavlov & Teodora Hadjiyska - 1079 is up next, I've saved the best 'till last!

Interesting book, I was quite relieved when I saw it's only 200 pages, I was expecting an encyclopedia, but it's very dense and not an easy read. I'm normally quite good at taking stuff in but I will have to go back and re-read a lot of it.

I really like the route maps, it's the only book I've read so far which looks at the whole hike and where they were planning to go next; which is key to understanding where the tent and labaz were, and why. The diagrams are great but I find the descriptions confusing, always talking about moving from one river valley to another, never bearings and landmarks.

I like the idea of the tree falling on the tent, it's a clever original idea but obviously it depends on you first buying into the tent being in the trees. Very unlucky it fell lengthways along the tent and I'm not convinced it explains all the injuries, in fact it was odd the book glossed over the autopsy findings, which are reliable facts. But maybe the truth is that boring.

I can believe there was a cover-up, but there's a confusing web of similar sounding names, incredibly long job titles, committees, meetings, radiograms etc, it's not always clear what point the author is trying to make. After several sections I was left thinking "so what? what does it mean?". There's too little commentary so it's hard work to understand, and some of the details could be put in an appendix.

And when you think about it, it's an extraordinary amount of effort to cover up an accidental death. It would have been simpler just to collect up the tent and bodies and bring them to the town, and remove everything from the scene. Then you could be vague about where they were found and just say it was an accident. The book even mentions a cook's body being retrieved on a sledge and there was no investigation.

The book is not clear about certain details of the scenario, e.g. where precisely was the tent? where were the bodies? how did those with minor injuries die? why didn't they grab clothes and tools from the tent? how did 4 die in the tent and end up with extra clothes? The final chapter needs fleshing out a bit, imo.

Overall I think I'd put it in the lower half of my list, well worth reading, lots of good data, love the maps, but a bit impenetrable and the final timeline of events is not quite resolved. I might revisit that after re-reading it. It's interesting every book has different information, and comes at it from a different angle.

I'll pop onto the book comments thread later and ask some questions.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on March 06, 2021, 08:58:16 AM
So the labaz on the mountain... decoding these photos is key. I can see the sense of putting the storage on the return route, and I did think it looked more like a hole than a surface when I first saw them, but I'd be concerned about the flag being blown away and the storage being lost.

(https://i.ibb.co/ZT2rBmd/dig.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j4JYyRh)

I can see 18 skis, 4-5 people digging, what are the rest doing? Why would they all go up the slope, and remove their skis? And it seems like a big hole to store 55kg, it should be maybe 2/3 the size of a person. And I think someone mentioned the camera settings and lighting indicated early evening, but it should be the morning of 1 Feb.

Plus, in this scenario we're talking about conspiritors lugging the tent (and contents) up the mountain, removing the storage, erecting the tent, walking NE down the mountain via the same route (4+4 footprints) carrying 55kg of items, then walking a mile South to install the new storage. Why not walk SE to the new storage location? It seems like a lot of effort. And why not just leave everything in the tent, the diaries don't say they made storage yet.

Plus, if the conspiritors improvised the storage later, when people started commenting certains items were missing, boots, skis, food, etc... then they didn't make storage, so you can't explain the photos.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on March 06, 2021, 10:27:36 AM
Regards books, Igor Pavlov & Teodora Hadjiyska - 1079 is up next, I've saved the best 'till last!

Interesting book, I was quite relieved when I saw it's only 200 pages, I was expecting an encyclopedia, but it's very dense and not an easy read. I'm normally quite good at taking stuff in but I will have to go back and re-read a lot of it.

I really like the route maps, it's the only book I've read so far which looks at the whole hike and where they were planning to go next; which is key to understanding where the tent and labaz were, and why. The diagrams are great but I find the descriptions confusing, always talking about moving from one river valley to another, never bearings and landmarks.

I like the idea of the tree falling on the tent, it's a clever original idea but obviously it depends on you first buying into the tent being in the trees. Very unlucky it fell lengthways along the tent and I'm not convinced it explains all the injuries, in fact it was odd the book glossed over the autopsy findings, which are reliable facts. But maybe the truth is that boring.

I can believe there was a cover-up, but there's a confusing web of similar sounding names, incredibly long job titles, committees, meetings, radiograms etc, it's not always clear what point the author is trying to make. After several sections I was left thinking "so what? what does it mean?". There's too little commentary so it's hard work to understand, and some of the details could be put in an appendix.

And when you think about it, it's an extraordinary amount of effort to cover up an accidental death. It would have been simpler just to collect up the tent and bodies and bring them to the town, and remove everything from the scene. Then you could be vague about where they were found and just say it was an accident. The book even mentions a cook's body being retrieved on a sledge and there was no investigation.

The book is not clear about certain details of the scenario, e.g. where precisely was the tent? where were the bodies? how did those with minor injuries die? why didn't they grab clothes and tools from the tent? how did 4 die in the tent and end up with extra clothes? The final chapter needs fleshing out a bit, imo.

Overall I think I'd put it in the lower half of my list, well worth reading, lots of good data, love the maps, but a bit impenetrable and the final timeline of events is not quite resolved. I might revisit that after re-reading it. It's interesting every book has different information, and comes at it from a different angle.

I'll pop onto the book comments thread later and ask some questions.

I personally read it through three times.  The first time was a power read because I was really excited.  The next two were to process all of it and cement it in my head.  Its an amazing reference tool for looking up information on people involved and specifics of of timeline and route.  And it really made the searchers and other students feel more real and dimensional to me.  The amount of work that went into it was astronomical! 

I do have questions about the theory, as well.  I can see it unfolding along these lines and I really do *want* it to have all been a natural accident because I've come to hold the group in high esteem; they had great integrity, they were hardworking, fun loving, dedicated, strong people.  They fought to stay alive, no matter what the circumstances were.  For me, I want it to be an accident and not anything nefarious.  But, wanting it thus and reality don't often intersect, lol! 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on March 06, 2021, 10:51:03 AM
It's like a jigsaw puzzle where every theory has to first take 100 random pieces off the table, because they don't all fit.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on March 06, 2021, 11:14:13 AM
It's like a jigsaw puzzle where every theory has to first take 100 random pieces off the table, because they don't all fit.

That's an excellent analogy!!!!
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on March 08, 2021, 11:49:32 AM
I'm beginning to wonder if Moscow were in fact telling the truth about an avalanche... but only a partial truth.

We know the slope of 1079 is insufficient, but if there was a catalyst that could cause an avalanche, then most everything fits... especially if said catalyst was observed as lights in the sky.

For example:
- tent is dug into the slope of 1079 making layered snow vulnerable to movement
- MacGuffin* explodes nearby on the mountain
- explosion causes vibration, which causes avalanche & noise
- hikers panic, cut their way out of the tent
- hikers run down the slope leaving clothes/tools behind
- hikers make a fire, groups splits, some keep the fire going others make a den
- fire is not working, two Yuris die, small scuffle breaks out, clothes are scavanged
- Rustem ascends slope and dies, followed by Igor and Zina
- rav4 make a den, their movements disturb the snow, causing avalanche in the ravine
- rav4 fall on rocks and are buried in snow
- lights in the sky Feb 17 are helicopters retrieving MacGuffin wreckage
- authorities close the case down because investigator sends radiograms in the clear about orbs & rockets
- cover up because authorities don't want people to discover what CAUSED the avalanche

*MacGuffin could be rocket launched from Kapustin Yar or Baikonur, or a spent stage, or local SAM test, or parachute mines from Tu-95, radioactive or not... choose your poison it doesn't matter.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: KFinn on March 08, 2021, 12:17:59 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if Moscow were in fact telling the truth about an avalanche... but only a partial truth.

We know the slope of 1079 is insufficient, but if there was a catalyst that could cause an avalanche, then most everything fits... especially if said catalyst was observed as lights in the sky.

For example:
- tent is dug into the slope of 1079 making layered snow vulnerable to movement
- MacGuffin* explodes nearby on the mountain
- explosion causes vibration, which causes avalanche & noise
- hikers panic, cut their way out of the tent
- hikers run down the slope leaving clothes/tools behind
- hikers make a fire, groups splits, some keep the fire going others make a den
- fire is not working, two Yuris die, small scuffle breaks out, clothes are scavanged
- Rustem ascends slope and dies, followed by Igor and Zina
- rav4 make a den, their movements disturb the snow, causing avalanche in the ravine
- rav4 fall on rocks and are buried in snow
- lights in the sky Feb 17 are helicopters retrieving MacGuffin wreckage
- authorities close the case down because investigator sends radiograms in the clear about orbs & rockets
- cover up because authorities don't want people to discover what CAUSED the avalanche

*MacGuffin could be rocket launched from Kapustin Yar or Baikonur, or a spent stage, or local SAM test, or parachute mines from Tu-95, radioactive or not... choose your poison it doesn't matter.

Even if there was no avalanche, loud noises and vibrations that sounded like one could initiate them leaving the tent.  It doesn't necessarily need an actual, physical avalanche, for them to fear that one is imminent and try to get to safety.  This has often been my thought.  However, they did not take evasive maneuvers as far as the direction they traveled.  But, if it was still snowing and they were disoriented...  I could see it, personally. 
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: RMK on March 08, 2021, 02:18:12 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if Moscow were in fact telling the truth about an avalanche... but only a partial truth.

We know the slope of 1079 is insufficient, but if there was a catalyst that could cause an avalanche, then most everything fits... especially if said catalyst was observed as lights in the sky.

For example:
- tent is dug into the slope of 1079 making layered snow vulnerable to movement
- MacGuffin* explodes nearby on the mountain
- explosion causes vibration, which causes avalanche & noise
- hikers panic, cut their way out of the tent
- hikers run down the slope leaving clothes/tools behind
- hikers make a fire, groups splits, some keep the fire going others make a den
- fire is not working, two Yuris die, small scuffle breaks out, clothes are scavanged
- Rustem ascends slope and dies, followed by Igor and Zina
- rav4 make a den, their movements disturb the snow, causing avalanche in the ravine
- rav4 fall on rocks and are buried in snow
- lights in the sky Feb 17 are helicopters retrieving MacGuffin wreckage
- authorities close the case down because investigator sends radiograms in the clear about orbs & rockets
- cover up because authorities don't want people to discover what CAUSED the avalanche

*MacGuffin could be rocket launched from Kapustin Yar or Baikonur, or a spent stage, or local SAM test, or parachute mines from Tu-95, radioactive or not... choose your poison it doesn't matter.

Even if there was no avalanche, loud noises and vibrations that sounded like one could initiate them leaving the tent.  It doesn't necessarily need an actual, physical avalanche, for them to fear that one is imminent and try to get to safety.  This has often been my thought.  However, they did not take evasive maneuvers as far as the direction they traveled.  But, if it was still snowing and they were disoriented...  I could see it, personally.
Well, most of the Dyatlov Nine would know better than to try to outrun an avalanche downhill.  Plus, they weren't the sort of people who are easily frightened and prone to panic.  And yet, the evidence is consistent with scenarios in which they did panic, causing them to do irrational things (like abandoning the tent...assuming they really did camp on the hillside).  So, lately I've been reconsidering the infrasound theory.  What if the effects of infrasound made a majority of them--maybe even all of them, to some extent--unusually anxious and jumpy?  Then, all it would take would be some sudden, unexpected event--ash73's "MacGuffin", perhaps--to startle a group of normally level-headed people into full-blown panic!  And then, one thing leads to another, and the scenario plays itself out to its tragic conclusion.

In other words, maybe the psychological effect of infrasound didn't by itself cause the group to behave irrationally, but it did put them in an emotional state in which they were unusually vulnerable to being scared out of their wits by some sudden, unexpected event.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on March 08, 2021, 02:41:57 PM
Yes the MacGuffin could be katabatic wind, infrasound or the stove... but they don't fit with the coverup or lights in the sky. It depends which jigsaw pieces you choose...

Politicians like telling half truths though.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on March 08, 2021, 03:03:13 PM
... or infrasound (or even just a severe blizzard) could have exacerbated a MacGuffin, as RMK suggests.
Title: Re: DPI noob
Post by: ash73 on March 13, 2021, 05:18:50 AM
I'm curious why the flat area dug out for the tent should look something like this:

(https://i.ibb.co/nMK3W4q/01.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/YT7QpXd/02.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sJvRyC1)
(photo courtesy of WAB)

But actually looks like this - the two men are standing precisely where they should be a ridge, or snow wall, above the tent:

(https://i.ibb.co/3rLKXvF/03.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C1TLd69)

(https://i.ibb.co/cCCQw11/04.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

If they did cut out a level platform, it's evident a significant volume of snow has been displaced.