Theories Discussion > KGB / Radiation / Military involvement

air/space craft accident leading to military attack

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wizzy:
thank you for your answer, very informative!   bow7

so that kind of panel was used in the UR-100 and the UR-100 it had not yet been developed at the time of the dyatlov incident.
could be a predecessor that used a similar kind of panel, re-used later in the UR-100?
it does not involve a specific leap of tecnology, it's just a geometric feature of a panel that makes it more stiff, maybe it could already be in use for some years before the '60s, it worked well, so the design was later adopted for the UR-100 and possibly several other aircrafts.
or specifically the wafer grid stiffening tecnology was totally new, and not invented until the '60 for the UR-100?
I am absolutely a newbie about aircraft engineering, so I'm sorry if my questions are dumb.

also in 1961 yuri gagarin completed the first succesful orbit of earth, is it not possible that only 2 years before, some test (maybe just of the vectors) were made with unsuccesful unmanned prototypes, and that some of them fell back off course "in the middle of nowhere"?
if it worked in 1961 it is likely there were preliminary tests a couple of years before, and if some test went not well, maybe the secret had to be kept a secret.
even of not, 1200 km is quite a lot, I'd expect there to be some military bases in a 1200 km radius around the area.

It is true that for a military team to reach the location in a short amount of time ( less than a day or the hikers would have probably noted explosions in the sky in their diaries the day before) a base and all the infrastructures would have to be relatively near.
do we know the distance of the closest military base that could hypotetically send a retrieve team in the area?

I admit the teory of the rocket/airplane accident as a motive may not be exceptionally strong ( still stronger than others) but I am still convinced that human intervention is the most plausible reason for the group to leave the tent, even if the debries is totally unrelated to the whole accident, and fell on the area decades later.

WAB:

--- Quote from: wizzy on March 21, 2019, 06:17:43 PM ---thank you for your answer, very informative!   bow7

so that kind of panel was used in the UR-100 and the UR-100 it had not yet been developed at the time of the dyatlov incident.
could be a predecessor that used a similar kind of panel, re-used later in the UR-100?
--- End quote ---

No. The intelligence of mankind develops gradually and now it is difficult present that many obvious technical decisions very long and difficultly took root into the industry.
Before rockets did as planes: power skeleton and filling cover. It smaller weight return (means a parity “durability – weight”), but more resource (time when working loadings are possible). The rocket flies all some 10s minutes (usually from 20 to 30) and after that it is not so necessary completely. The plane should fly for years and have the big reliability. In it basic difference in designing of rockets and planes. 1958 … 1963 is the period when purely rocket technologies in designing and manufacturing of cases rockets accustomed and took root. Before it in industry used old (as plane) technologies only.


--- Quote from: wizzy on March 21, 2019, 06:17:43 PM ---it does not involve a specific leap of tecnology, it's just a geometric feature of a panel that makes it more stiff, maybe it could already be in use for some years before the '60s, it worked well, so the design was later adopted for the UR-100 and possibly several other aircrafts.
--- End quote ---

We speak about rockets. Therefore it is necessary consider that I have just told in the previous paragraph.
It was necessary for possibility of reception such elements covers much multispindle milling machine tools which practically were not used before. Therefore it was necessary to develop and make them in the necessary quantity. It means new races in machine-tool construction. It turns out that one industry demands from another new development. And on it time, means and intellectual energy is necessary. Therefore it very quickly and in advance cannot anything develop.


--- Quote from: wizzy on March 21, 2019, 06:17:43 PM ---or specifically the wafer grid stiffening tecnology was totally new, and not invented until the '60 for the UR-100?
--- End quote ---

I speak about it also. It has been applied then because there was transition from plane to rocket technology in rocket production. Before practically there were no big rockets and there was no technology on which them could make.


--- Quote from: wizzy on March 21, 2019, 06:17:43 PM ---I am absolutely a newbie about aircraft engineering, so I'm sorry if my questions are dumb.
--- End quote ---

You are absolutely right that ask such questions. It will allow understand competently and in detail that occurred. Some people instead start think out a fantasy, therefore quickly get confused in the general course of events.


--- Quote from: wizzy on March 21, 2019, 06:17:43 PM ---also in 1961 yuri gagarin completed the first succesful orbit of earth, is it not possible that only 2 years before, some test (maybe just of the vectors) were made with unsuccesful unmanned prototypes, and that some of them fell back off course "in the middle of nowhere"?
if it worked in 1961 it is likely there were preliminary tests a couple of years before, and if some test went not well, maybe the secret had to be kept a secret.
--- End quote ---

If to consider real history of outer space exploration in 50 and 60th years it is necessary notice that for 5 years in the history of mankind there were many events which was not and will not be already further for such small period. 1957 - there were first rockets which were capable to put into orbit the companion. 1961 - it is year when the person has departed for the first time to space. In this time it was necessary to solve many different problems: from equipment existence in space (the big cold and the big overheat for short time period) to full complex of life-support of the person in space and possibility of the guaranteed returning to the earth. It is very much great volume of work. I am, just, the expert in these problems. There was big intensity in working out and tests of space systems, therefore make that that was faster simply impossible. It was necessary pass from simple companions for scientific equipment essentially new space vehicles + any equipment + land systems + preparation of astronauts (at them skills and ability too could not will appear from anything). Me surprises (from my position of our time) as such in general it was possible. Process of knowledge to man in any way cannot be accelerated. On it is necessary to time so much, how many it is required, instead of it is so much, how many it would be desirable.
Therefore “return to back”, this false sensation when all is already clear and clear. And when all is already made as it is necessary. Actually all much more difficult also occurs much more slowly, than it seems.


--- Quote from: wizzy on March 21, 2019, 06:17:43 PM ---even of not, 1200 km is quite a lot, I'd expect there to be some military bases in a 1200 km radius around the area.
--- End quote ---

You take map of the USSR and estimate the sizes of its territory. Then it will be clear that rockets with action radius in 1200 km could be established in the country only “for this purpose what shoot to the our population...”  grin1 It, of course, joke and if it is serious them established about country borders that “the enemy troops potential” would be within reach. Spend circle in radius of 1200 km from Dyatlov pass and try find there though one border about which there were NATO countries. Then it will be clear, where and as such rockets could settle down.


--- Quote from: wizzy on March 21, 2019, 06:17:43 PM ---It is true that for a military team to reach the location in a short amount of time ( less than a day or the hikers would have probably noted explosions in the sky in their diaries the day before) a base and all the infrastructures would have to be relatively near.
do we know the distance of the closest military base that could hypotetically send a retrieve team in the area?
--- End quote ---

The nearest military part was ~ in 300 km from pass. It were radio engineering armies team which provided communication on territory of the USSR in interests of the defensive ministry. In Ivdel in the end of 1958, and on the East from Ivdel, have started place brigade of railway armies team which began building of the railway from Ivdel to Ob river. They the basic weapon had shovels, and rifles were only for guard duty execution. Than other armies was not closer at that time.
Before to send search group it is necessary ask itself question (and receive definite answer!): what for it is necessary? If such answer is not present, it means it is necessary understand, how you fantasy.


--- Quote from: wizzy on March 21, 2019, 06:17:43 PM ---I admit the teory of the rocket/airplane accident as a motive may not be exceptionally strong ( still stronger than others) but I am still convinced that human intervention is the most plausible reason for the group to leave the tent, even if the debries is totally unrelated to the whole accident, and fell on the area decades later.

--- End quote ---

If it so, please list those signs and the facts which speak about intervention of other people. If such arguments are not present, it will be too fantasy sign. If the person cannot explain to itself (and another) that occurs, it not occasion for this purpose what consider that there was malicious intention of other people.

sarapuk:

--- Quote from: wizzy on March 20, 2019, 11:13:25 PM ---Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum :)

I have a theory that may explain the presence of military in the area, even if there were no restrictions or weapon tests.
I don't know if this has already been presented in the forum, in that case i didn't notice it and apologize.
btw bear with me:

we know several pieces of debris have been found in the recent years in the area.
I am not an engineer but these "grid stiffened panels" seem to be commonly used in aircrafts, or generally in stuff that has to be light, and resistant to pressures/solicitation.
I have found evidence of at least 3 of these debris recovered in the area of the dyatlov incident:






I also found years ago a picture on panoramio of another piece, similar in size to the first, but I have lost the pic and can't seem to be able to recover it online anywhere... according to the geolocalization of the picture, it was found a couple miles SW of the tent location, on the other side of the cliff.

My theory is, bear with me, that an accident happened to some kind of (possibly top secret) aircraft high in the air, maybe even a reentry capsule from a space test, and the
debris fell all over the area.
a team of military were sent to recover the debris and to cleanup the evidence, and to their surprise spotted the tent of the Dyatlov expedition, being them possible witnesses of the accident, the decision was made to silence them by staging their death.

A team of military approached the tent and at gunpoint forced the hikers to leave the tent, and walk away in the night hoping for the cold to do the job.
maybe they were restrained, and questioned first, explaining the abrasions on Dyatlov's ankles, maybe some of them tried to react, and were beaten up causing the lesser injuries found on them, compatible with a fight, but they were ultimately overpowered and forced to venture in the night.

all the cameras were left in the tent, but maybe Zolotoryov managed to sneak one, hiding it under his clothes, same for one of the knives, keep in mind the harsh conditions
were no walk in the park even for the military, and in the darkness they didn't notice.

maybe the military, just to be sure, forced the hikers to abandon even more clothes on their way down to the slope ( some clothes were found scattered on the trail to the
cedar, relatively close to the tent).
While the military were "cleaning up" some of them noticed a fire under the cedar, sign that some of the hikers had somehow survived, and hunted them down causing the more severe injuries.
maybe stepping on their chests, beating them with blunt objects, or pushing their own weight on the side of the head with a knee, or pushing them in the ravine, in order to make this ordeal appear as an accident ( or maybe the ravine fall was an actual accident).

why no military tracks?
maybe they were using snowshoes, that distribute more evenly the weight and leave less permanent compression tracks in the snow.

why the radioactivity on some specific clothes?
maybe someone in the group recovered a pice of debris, hence not all the clothes were radioactive, but only those who entered into contact with the debris. or maybe as someone else pointed out, the melting snow accumulated it onto some of the corpses clothes found in the ravine after collecting it from the area.
I have no idea if that kind of radioactivity is compatible with a vehicle reentrying from orbit or if it requires some specific isotopes, but maybe the craft had a nuclear battery in it akin to some space probes.

I know this explanation does not answer to ALL the questions, but at least it could be a plausible reason ( i think) to have hostile military forces in the area. despite it not being a restricted weapon testing area.
And yes i know the debris could be a recent thing, happened decades after the dyatlov accident, but 2 unusual fenomenons in the same place may well not be a coincidence.

on an unrelated note, a few years ago, some strange thing was found ( possibly fallen from the sky) in russia, albeit very far from the Dyatlov incident region, that has a section
closely resempling the grid pattern on the dyatlov debris:
https://www.livescience.com/19239-ufo-fragment-siberia-forest.html

I know it's just speculations, but could this be a plausible explanation to have a human cause to the group leaving the tent?
what do you guys think about it?  bow7

--- End quote ---


This is another angle on the Murder of the Dyatlov Group by the Military, this one because of some Air Craft Incident. It just doesnt make sense. Why would the Military Authorities want to MURDER their own people  !  ?  The Dyatlov Group were STUDENTS who would one day be of use to the USSR. Just because there was an accident in the Sky  !  ? 

Jacques-Emile:
NATO 1200 km. away?  Not so!  NATO was 30 km. away - up!
Sverdlovsk rocket shot down FG Powers American in 1960!  With SAM special missile. You wonder when Soviets develop this rocket?  1958-1959? They launched from SAM installation NW of Sverdlovsk. Was Ural Technology Institute developing secret rocket?

Jacques-Emile:
U-2 had 24 unchallenged flyovers before May Day 1960. Chelyabinsk was information target. Sverdlovsk was a few minutes ahead. US did not know of S-75 kill over China in 1959 (according to Soviet sources - according to Western sources, the first loss of a U-2 over China was in 1962). The shoot down of Gary Powers' U-2 over Russia. Would develop this rocket, and test on dummy craft over Urals. On May Day, rockets also killed Soviet chase plane over Urals. Busy place.

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