June 25, 2022, 11:15:10 PM
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Author Topic: A problem with homicide theories  (Read 9177 times)

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May 09, 2022, 03:37:27 PM
Reply #60
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Charles


Thank you for your kind answer.

I'm not sure if using the 178 million fractures has context though. Because it leaves out another billion  plus people that would have not recorded fractures. So I think the statistics can only be applied from the 4 with fractures.

It is difficult to find a better sample if you want to know what bones usually break when there is an accident or fight or any catastrophic event involving any person. A better sample would be only more specific about age as bone fragility is mostly related to age...

For example, if there was a bus crash and one person out of 9 on the bus had 20 fractures to their chest but they all died I don't think you could apply that 20 fractures were distributed across the 9 people on the bus.

Why not ? We can even make an average: 2.2 fractures/person in the bus. It has more meaning with Dyatlov's group because 4/9 hikers had fractures. The figures are low and it is better to make statistics with larger groups, but 4/9 and 29 is a beginning and that's all we have.

I think that there is a high possibility that they were crushed after finding or digging a snow hole.

And consider that Zolotaryov had both scapula and ribs fractures, which is not likely compatible with compression when the weakest link breaks and releases the pressure. Zolotaryov had two lignes of fractures at the ribs, on the same side, one close to the sternum. When these two lines broke they released the pressure. But breaking the scapula required a second blow... Zolotaryov had lines of 5 fractured ribs, but Dubinina had a line of 6 fractured ribs... If it was compression fractures, why didn't a 6th rib break on his chest to release the pressure on Zolotaryov as it did on Dubinina ? But the the scapula did break on him, a stronger bone in his back ? At least two blows on Zolotaryov...

 
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May 09, 2022, 03:56:52 PM
Reply #61
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Ziljoe


Hi Charles,

I will get back to you on this. At the moment it's a gut instinct that the stats you suggest are incorrectly applied. But I am only debating the issue and not dismissing your thinking. It's a journey that I'm happy to look into.

I just don't think you can put people with no fractures in with those that did. Hopefully someone else on the forum can comment.

 thumb1
 

May 09, 2022, 05:08:23 PM
Reply #62
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Игорь Б.


At least two blows on Zolotaryov...
Нет.
Quote
Переломы лопатки достаточно редко наблюдаются в травматологии... Как правило, возникают одновременно с переломами ребер.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=86651
The answers to all the questions related to the death of Dyatlov group:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=110407
Evidence of the death of the Dyatlov group from the Wolverine chemical weapon:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=69286
 
The following users thanked this post: marieuk, Charles

May 09, 2022, 05:13:44 PM
Reply #63
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Charles


I just don't think you can put people with no fractures in with those that did.

If we want to calculate a fertility rate, we divide the number of children by the number women of childbearing age, they might have 3, 2, 1 or 0 children, they are all included as long as they have the age to bear a child. Same with the fracture rate, we divide the number of broken bones by the number of hikers exposed to injury, they might have 14, 13, 1 or 0 fractures, they are all included as long as they have breakable bones.

Greetings
« Last Edit: May 09, 2022, 05:22:27 PM by Charles »
 

May 09, 2022, 05:21:43 PM
Reply #64
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Charles


At least two blows on Zolotaryov...
Нет.

Thank you Igor, so... only one blow from the snowman.
 

May 09, 2022, 05:49:37 PM
Reply #65
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Ziljoe


I think this is wrong way to analyse the statistics? If there are no fractures in the other 5 ,then they don't lead to the event that caused the fractures. It could be a separate event? I don't think you can link fractures to non fractures? I need you to be more specific. 3 in the ravine had their fractures . One on the hill side had his fracture in the skull which could have been to a freezing of the fluids .
 

May 10, 2022, 03:03:26 PM
Reply #66
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Ziljoe


At least two blows on Zolotaryov...
Нет.

Thank you Igor, so... only one blow from the snowman.


The quote from Igor translated to English:

Fractures of the scapula are rarely observed in traumatology ... As a rule, they occur simultaneously with fractures of the ribs

: Igor b is not for the snowman. He explains that he believes that there was a snow collapse at the ravine. He hypothesizes through researched  data also. From his link I will translate some to English.

About fractures of the right scapula in Zolotarev.

A comprehensive assessment of the location of cadaveric spots and flexion-extensor fractures of the ribs made it possible to determine the exact position of Zolotarev's body at the time of snow collapse in the stream:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&sho...ost&p=86124

Attached image

It can be seen that the main blow fell on the right side of the chest and the right shoulder blade.
As it turned out, there is nothing surprising in the fracture of the scapula along with the ribs:
Quote
Fractures of the scapula are rarely observed in traumatology ... As a rule, they occur simultaneously with fractures of the ribs .http://www.krasotaimedicina.ru/diseases/tr...oulder-fracture
Quote
Scapular fractures are caused by direct trauma with a large force vector. As a rule, in 80% of cases, fractures of the scapula are accompanied by injuries to the chest , lungs and shoulder.
Quote
A scapular fracture requires significant force and, as a rule, a scapular fracture is accompanied by other injuries , which requires a thorough examination.https://www.dikul.net/wiki/perelomy-lopatki/
 

May 10, 2022, 07:14:30 PM
Reply #67
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Manti



They could have toe fractures as the didn't have their shoes on and crossed a field of stones to reach the forest, but they had not a single toe fracture
Do we know this? Were their feet checked for fractures? Perhaps the pathologist was only looking to determine cause of death and  toe fractures aren't fatal.



 

May 10, 2022, 07:48:49 PM
Reply #68
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Ziljoe



They could have toe fractures as the didn't have their shoes on and crossed a field of stones to reach the forest, but they had not a single toe fracture
Do we know this? Were their feet checked for fractures? Perhaps the pathologist was only looking to determine cause of death and  toe fractures aren't fatal.






Not my quote manti, it was Charles.
 

May 11, 2022, 02:02:38 PM
Reply #69
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Charles


Igor b is not for the snowman. He explains that he believes that there was a snow collapse at the ravine.

Yes, I got that point, that's why I conceded a single blow and thanked Igor, but I am not convinced with the snow crushing the hikers yet.
 

May 11, 2022, 02:34:36 PM
Reply #70
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Charles


Do we know this? Were their feet checked for fractures? Perhaps the pathologist was only looking to determine cause of death and  toe fractures aren't fatal.

They noted scratches and pine needles in the hair which were not causes of death. And they noted 26 fractures, then 29, which not so bad for a check. We have to rely on the autopsies, even if new material forces us to modify our hypothesis as when they later discovered Zolotaryov's scapular fractures. But we can't go anywhere if we consider that there could be 20 more unnoticed fractures. We can consider the autopsies as a sufficiently serious ground, at least provisory, to begin building a theory. The material of the diaries is very different, much more complex, with different layers of reality: the said, the half-said, the unsaid, the missing in the absolute, the missing which can be found elsewhere, the said with repentance, the begun to be said but finally silenced and lost...

The diaries allow us recapture information despite some seeming gaps, but we have to stick to the autopsies because if we supposes gaps, then they become perfectly useless. And a provisory theory is better than no theory at all.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2022, 08:14:07 AM by Charles »
 

May 15, 2022, 12:28:08 PM
Reply #71
Offline

Jean Daniel Reuss


                  Reply #59
.........................
I think that there is a high possibility that they were crushed after finding or digging a snow hole.

If I understand correctly you are supporting the hypothesis that the fatal injuries to the 4 of the Den are the consequences of a natural collapse of the hardened snow above them.

Conversely, you will be aware that I am a proponent of the criminal explanation for the DPI (the TOKEB theory). In other words, I am convinced that there is no problem with the homicide theory. Here is a remark that allows us to think that there was the intervention of other people.

First it seems that the 4 of the Den had decided to wait and hide in the ravine (small valley) near the cedar.


To be able to stay a long time in the Den without getting cold they had judiciously built 4 small beds of branches, (probably following the advice of Zolotaryov).



The bed of branches consisted of 14 fir tree branches and one birch, and on top were belongings and clothes.
The clothes included:
    One leg of a pair of black ski trousers;
    A thick brown woolen sweater;
    A white woolen jumper, made in China; and
    A pair of brown trousers tied at the ankles but flared open with a tear to widen them.


I then assume that you do not object to the visual reconstruction of Vasilii-Zyadik, who has certainly worked as rigorously as possible in constructing his instructive synthesized images.



Therefore a question is mandatory :

   How could the corpses have been moved by a natural cause while the beds of branches seem not to have moved?

In 2013 Askinadzi published a letter in Ural Stalker magazine, in which he recalls that the distance between all the heads of those found in the brook was about 30 cm (about 11.5") – they were all very close to each other.

On the contrary, this grouping of the four corpses can easily be explained by the final action of "outsiders" who threw, or rather flung, chucked, the corpses into a place (or a hole like a pit) located below.

Once their work was done, the murderers wanted to tidy things up and also align the corpses to make absolutely for sure that there were 4 of them, because 9, minus the previous 5 = 4.
• Only Kolevatov was not quite dead yet and was able to turn a bit on Zolotaryov in a last and almost involuntary movement.
• By coincidence, there was a small difference in level at this point and Dubinina slipped and ended up in the bizarre kneeling position that we know.

mk :   December 04, 2020, 03:34:13 AM      Reply #7
it strikes me that the killers were rather unconcerned about making things look natural.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 
The following users thanked this post: Charles

May 15, 2022, 03:04:45 PM
Reply #72
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Ziljoe


Hi Jean Daniel Reuss,

I support the hypothesis that the fatal injuries could have been caused by the collapse of snow on top of the ravine 4.

I assume that some of, or all the clothing on the fir bed  were from the 2 Yuri's?. What exactly happened at the den , we will never know. However we have four bodies and a number of fractures.

It is not because it was hardened snow that fell on top of them but rather the reporting of hard snow when digging the bodies out that indicates that there had been a snow collapse.

The position of the bodies also suggests that they were perhaps lying in that position , perhaps cuddling each other. It is not that the snow collapsed at the actual den and there bodies migrated , rather the ravine 4 moved themselves to that location where the bodies were found.

Igor b goes into more detail about the specifics.

I am open to all hypothesis.
 

May 15, 2022, 05:15:07 PM
Reply #73
Offline

Игорь Б.


How could the corpses have been moved by a natural cause while the beds of branches seem not to have moved?
Никто никуда не перемещался. Было два укрытия - настил из деревьев и снежная пещера. Расстояние между ними 11 метров. Сделать одно укрытие на 9 человек в тех условиях было невозможно.
Кроме того, очевидно, что у них было два разных подхода к строительству снежных укрытий.

P.S. Любые версии с убийством опровергаются пятнами Вишневского:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=107726
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90162
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 05:19:32 PM by Игорь Б. »
The answers to all the questions related to the death of Dyatlov group:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=110407
Evidence of the death of the Dyatlov group from the Wolverine chemical weapon:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=69286
 

May 17, 2022, 02:31:01 PM
Reply #74
Offline

Jean Daniel Reuss




I think I did not really understand the comment you wrote. Maybe it is a translation problem as I am very bad at English.

Reply #72
.....................................................
It is not because it was hardened snow that fell on top of them but rather the reporting of hard snow when digging the bodies out that indicates that there had been a snow collapse.
The position of the bodies also suggests that they were perhaps lying in that position .......
 It is not that the snow collapsed at the actual den and there bodies migrated , rather the ravine 4 moved themselves to that location where the bodies were found...................

*** After the Den had been difficult to set up, "the four" would have voluntarily chosen to settle in an other particularly unsuitable place (because it was steep : small waterfall).  ! ?
This seems unbelievable to me.

*** What I pretentiously call the TOKEB theory is still under development because, as you know, the DPI requires taking into account and evaluating thousands of sometimes incompatible elements. (The TOKEB theory should be seen as a didactic device intended to present my explanatory hypothesis in a simple way).
So I appreciate all your objections.

*** But I did not understand why the consideration of Vishnevsky's stains, indicated by Igor B., Reply #73, can be an obstacle to the murder theories.
See, my next post addressed to Igor B., Reply #75.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Additional practical clarifications:

In the present topic=744, it is about discussing the "HOW" question. The "WHO" and "WHY" questions are other equally interesting and difficult topics, to be considered elsewhere.

In the TOKEB theory, it is important to note that the only weapons used by the attackers were wooden clubs ("big stick"). Because a "big stick" is a weapon that has the great advantage, in the darkness, of knocking out silently, provided it is handled by strong arms.


Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

May 17, 2022, 02:34:57 PM
Reply #75
Offline

Jean Daniel Reuss


                Reply #73   
How could the corpses have been moved by a natural cause while the beds of branches seem not to have moved ?
No one had moved anywhere. There were two shelters - a tree decking and a snow cave. The distance between them was 11 metres. It was impossible to make one shelter for 9 people in those conditions.
In addition, it is obvious that they had two different approaches to building snow shelters.
P.S. Any version of a murder is refuted by Vishnevsky's stains.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=107726
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90162

The main weakness of the wolverine theory is that it does not explain the numerous injuries and fractures that were observed.

I agree with the statements that you are quoting:
The severity of Vishnevsky's spots depends on the duration of dying: if death occurs quickly, they are singular or there may be none.
In death, which occurs several hours after the onset of cooling, the spots are multiple and are an almost constant finding at autopsy.
Wischnewsky (or Vischnevsky) Spots in Fatal Hypothermia:
These stains do not form immediately, but a few hours after the onset of hypothermia.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
On the other hand, I think that taking into account the Vishnevski stains brings an argument in favour of the theory of murders or massacre according to TOKEB.

 •  Attackers kept Kolmogorova, Slobodin, Dyatlov,  alive in the cold for several hours, perhaps 10 hours, As a result, they had Vischnevsky stains (and severe frostbites on their limbs), until they froze to death.

 •  On the other hand Doroshenko and Krivonishchenko die more quickly, maybe 3 hours after losing consciousness, so around 2.00 AM - 2 February.
 
 •  With regard to Dubinina, Zolotaryov, Thibault, Kolevatov, all four are killed almost instantly during the short final fight near the Den
at 7.10 AM - 2 February.  (no stains).

We have different views on the massacre that took place on the night of 1 to 2 February 1959 on the slope of Kholat Syakhl.
I am making below a schematic and simplified table of the chronology of the events according to the main lines of the TOKEB theory.
Naturally, the logically reconstituted times listed are given as an indication and and should be treated as rough approximations.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
8.00 PM - 1 February: 9 leaving the tent without the essential equipment  = attackers launched a kind of dope inside
8.15 PM - 1 February: Kolmogorova knocked out, stunned going down the slope, lies in the snow unable to move, but alive because her injuries are not fatal.
8.18 PM - 1 February: Slobodin  knocked out, stunned going down the slope, lies in the snow unable to move, but alive because his injuries are not fatal.

8.30 PM - 1 February: The 7 remaining hikers reach the cedar.
9.00 PM - 1 February: The fire is lit but after some discussion and perhaps an altercation Zolotaryov, Thibault, Kolevatov, Dubinina move away from the fire and leave with the purpose of setting up and hiding in an unknown Den.

9.15 PM - 1 February:  Dyatlov  knocked out, stunned going UP the slope, his ankles may be tied to immobilise him....

*** At this moment Kolmogorova, Slobodin, Dyatlov are knocked out but alive. They are slowly cooling down lying in the snow.
Kolmogorova, Slobodin, Dyatlov will die much later for instancee on 8.00 AM - 2 February.
Doroshenko and Krivonishchenko remain alone beside the fire under the cedar.

9.30 PM - 1 February: Doroshenko easily knocked out because being beside the fire he is dazzled and cannot see the attackers coming.
9.32 PM - 1 February: Krivonishchenko detected by the attackers at the top of the cedar........
9.40 PM - 1 February: beginning of the Krivonishchenko torture with the question : where the 4 absent hikers went ?
10.40 PM - 1 February: stopping the unsuccessful torture of Krivonishchenko. The attackers return to the tent, checking that Dyatlov Slobodin, Kolmogorova have not moved.
11.10 PM - 1 February: Attackers settle into the tent to warm up, eat, rest, sleep...

*** Thus the Den's hiding place will prove effective for about 9 hours:
6.00 AM - 2 February: Zolotaryov, Thibault, Kolevatov, Dubinina  come out from the Den and find Doroshenko and Krivonishchenko dead under the cedar.
6.30 AM - 2 February: Zolotaryov, Thibault, Kolevatov, Dubinina  return to the Den. Their mood is low as they realize that the other 5 hikers are definitively  neutralized.

6.40 AM - 2 February: The attackers go back down the slope towards the cedar in search of the 4 hihers still unharmed.
7.00 AM - 2 February: The attackers easily find the Den's hiding place as it is not yet completely dark. (civil dawn about 7.33 AM & surise about 8.23 AM).
7.05 AM - 2 February: The 4 hikers are forcefully removed from their hiding place.
7.10 AM - 2 February: The 4 hikers are hit with strength and promptly killed.
7.20 AM - 2 February: Trampoline exercises on the chests of Zolotaryov and Dubinina.......
                      Use of a small spoon, the edges of which had been previously sharpened with a file or a grinding wheel (--> four eyes).................
7.30 AM - 2 February: The 4 corpses are counted (there are in fact 4 for sure) and thrown down a natural hole 11 metres downstream from the Den.

8.00 AM - 2 February: The attackers settle in the still intact tent to eat and rest.
11.00 AM - 2 February: The attackers leave in the direction of North-2 after cutting the canvas of the tent from the inside.

 
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
About the time displayed on the watches, see also :
https://dyatlovpass.com/watches?filter_page=2&rbid=18461
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=621.0
PJ : I have big doubts if the Experiment with Watches gives any clues about the fact what time they die.

Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

May 17, 2022, 03:07:32 PM
Reply #76
Offline

Ziljoe


Hi Jean Daniel Reuss,

It will be my poor English.

The searchers found evidence from their probes to dig in the location of the ravine 4. On digging they found the snow was difficult to dig. They requested strong men to do the digging. This indicates that the snow was different from the surrounding snow. One reason this snow might have been difficult to dig is if there had been a snow collapse.

Because the ravine 4  were not found at the den with sticks , firs and clothes, it does not mean the were washed down with water of the stream. They chose a snow hole , snow bridge or cave that was already there.

Imagine 4 people taking shelter in a snow cave and a large amount of snow falls from above. What would happen to the bones in the body? 
 

May 18, 2022, 10:47:45 AM
Reply #77
Offline

Charles


This indicates that the snow was different from the surrounding snow. One reason this snow might have been difficult to dig is if there had been a snow collapse.

Another reason might be the presence of flowing water underneath the snow. Can the presence of flowing water modify the snow which is above ?
 

May 18, 2022, 06:00:50 PM
Reply #78
Offline

Ziljoe


This indicates that the snow was different from the surrounding snow. One reason this snow might have been difficult to dig is if there had been a snow collapse.

Another reason might be the presence of flowing water underneath the snow. Can the presence of flowing water modify the snow which is above ?


Perhaps......but everything is perhaps regarding this case.  4 bodies under hard snow with 2 having collapsed ribs makes sense. If it were outsiders, why not try to  hide them all? 
 

May 18, 2022, 07:35:39 PM
Reply #79
Offline

Игорь Б.


Another reason might be the presence of flowing water underneath the snow. Can the presence of flowing water modify the snow which is above ?

Настил находился от тел в 11 метрах выше по течению того же ручья. Снег над настилом был мягкий (видно на фотографии):
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=64622

Снег и должен быть мягким, если не было обрушения:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=89802
The answers to all the questions related to the death of Dyatlov group:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=110407
Evidence of the death of the Dyatlov group from the Wolverine chemical weapon:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=69286
 

May 22, 2022, 07:54:25 AM
Reply #80
Offline

Jean Daniel Reuss


                       Reply #76
........................................
 it does not mean the were washed down with water of the stream. They chose a snow hole , snow bridge or cave that was already there.
......................................

Many thanks for having corrected my unforgivable mistake.

I do apologize, I had made a huge mistake in my translation.
I now understand that you mean that they abandoned the 4 branch beds (referred to as "the Den") to voluntarily relocate a few meters downstream in order to hide in a snow cave or big hole
(referred to as "the Ravine", despite the place being located in a tiny valley and not in a canyon)
which then collapsed on them.

In summary, I had mistakenly translated :
washed down with water of the stream

by: entrained downstream and properly cleaned by the water stream (and thus without trace of radiation).
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

May 22, 2022, 02:41:15 PM
Reply #81
Offline

Ziljoe


Not a problem Jean Daniel Reuss.

My English is bad. It should read , it does not mean 'they' were washed down with 'the' water of the stream.

I agree that the word "ravine" may not be suitable or infer some large canyon. However, they were found under a large mass of snow. Reports indicate that it was hard snow.
 

May 23, 2022, 09:08:21 AM
Reply #82
Offline

Manti


There is some inherent inconsistency in what we know about snow conditions:
  • The raised footprints that were found suggest that the amount of snow cover at the time of the incident was more than when the search started.
  • At the same time, the "Ravine 4" being found on rocks under meters of snow, suggests either that there was less snow when they started sheltering there, and snow cover significantly increased after the incident, or that there was a lot of snow under them and it all melted by the time they were found, in which case snow in the "ravine" area would also have shifted significantly, downstream.
  • Barely any snow on the two Yuris when found suggests that area was exposed to wind. Why would they try to light a fire there?
In fact it seems very unlikely that there would be any snow cover on the stream, let alone meters of hardened snow, let alone in May! There are several photographs they took that show streams with no snow on top, the water exposed, and that was in January. I think the commonly accepted information about where the "Ravine 4" were found must be incorrect.
 

May 23, 2022, 03:16:15 PM
Reply #83
Offline

Ziljoe


I think the snow can drift similar to desert sand . Depending on the wind strength , direction and temperature. There are reports of the exposed sides of trees having suffered peeling . If I understand it correctly it's like sand blasting. I agree with Manti that where the foot prints were found it must have been deeper at the time that the prints were made.

Depending on how the snow and wind fell
at the ravine, I believe that the snow could easily make a snow bridge . It happens in nature , the stream could still run free underneath any snow.

However, what is clear , is that there was a lot of snow at the ravine and den area. Wheather that happened before the incident or after is anyone's guess. But it does happen in nature and they can be some of the last snow to thaw. Especially if it has been hardened by compression. Again think of the snow after sliding off a roof of a house , it's stays hard on the ground. Similar to the snow left by snow ploughs at the side of the road.
 

May 29, 2022, 03:31:34 PM
Reply #84
Offline

Jean Daniel Reuss


     
Conventional vocabulary used : "ravine's Four" - Den - Ravine

•••  The "ravine's Four" =  Dubinina, Thibeaux-Brignolle, Zolotaryov, Kolevatov.

•••  The Den = the location where the 4 beds of brushwood cut on May 4 or 5, 1959 were found.l'endroit où ont été trouvé les 4 lits de branchage les 4 ou 5 mai 1959.

•••  The Ravine = the location where the 4 corpses of the "ravine's Four" were found on May 5, 1959.

   



    °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

7 meters is the distance Den <--> Ravine following Vassilii Zyadik
Do you agree with Vassilii Zyadik's synthetic image reconstruction ?

If you agree then the Den is located 7 meters upstream from the Ravine .
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
(In the following I will refer to this location found on May 4 or 5 as: the Den-Ravine.)


 
 



    °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

less snow on February 2 than on May 5
              Reply #82
............ there was less snow when they started sheltering there, and snow cover significantly increased after the incident,[February 2]....
It is impossible to know exactly how deep the snow was at the Ravine on February 2, 1959, i.e. 3 months before the discovery of Dubinina's corpse on May 5 by Askenadzi («  I...saw a piece of meat on the hook...»).
https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?rbid=18461

But we can nevertheless be sure that there was less snow on February 2 than on May 5 !



    °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

The natural and progressive evolution of powder snow into hard and compact snow
              Reply #83
..... Especially if it has been hardened by compression. Again think of the snow after sliding off a roof of a house , it's stays hard on the ground. Similar to the snow left by snow ploughs at the side of the road.

Yes. It is also necessary to take into account the alternation of freezing and thawing...
The natural evolution of freshly fallen powdery snow to progressively turn into hard, compact snow and then slowly into real ice is well known........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9v%C3%A9

Névé  is a young, granular type of snow which has been partially melted, refrozen and compacted, yet precedes the form of ice. This type of snow is associated with glacier formation through the process of nivation.[1] Névé that survives a full season of ablation turns into firn, which is both older and slightly denser. Firn eventually becomes glacial ice – the long-lived, compacted ice that glaciers are composed of.[2] Glacier formation can take days to years depending on freeze-thaw factors.........
Névé has a minimum density of 500 kg/m3...


So no need to invoke sloped house roofs or snow ploughs on at the side on roads that were not in the area around the cedar.



    °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

Some deceptive photos that are misleading

The location of the Ravine (= the location of the corpses of the "ravine's Four" remained totally unknown until May 4 or 5, 1959.
(what is certain is that the Den was found before the Ravine).

According to Askenadzi :
https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?rbid=18461
• On the discovery of the Den :
...These branches, as it were, indicated the path from the chopped fir-trees to the ravine [in fact it was the Den]. It turned out that the hikers cut off the branches and dragged them into the ravine [the Den], losing some debris of the branches along the way. Where the path ended, there we started digging. The snow was wet, caked. We cut down blocks and took them out. That’s how we found the den. With trembling hands - thinking that we will now find the guys - we scooped up the snow. When we saw an empty den, it became very painful. Where are they? ......

• On the discovery of the Ravine :
...We had professional emergency avalanche probes designed to search for bodies. There is a hook at the end. It is necessary to poke, turn and pull it back. Mostly we pulled moss with the hook. And then I took out the probe and saw a piece of meat on the hook ....

Mihail Sharavin as well as  Vladimir Borzenkov   have failed to identify the location of the area "Den-Ravine".
https://dyatlovpass.com/controversy?flp=1#ravine
https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine-borzenkov

This explains why there are still photos that evoke some kind of ice cliff which are therefore misleading because they have nothing to do with the DPI.



Forget these misleading photos



    °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

The correct location of the Den-Ravine recovered after 1959

According to what I could read (or understand) on the present website of [/b]Teddy[/b], it is Shura Alekseenkov and Sasha KAN who have finally really located the Den-Ravine in 2011 and 2016.

https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine-alekseenkov-and-kan
https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine

Schematic plan of the area


Photos of the Den in the background and the Ravine in the foreground (but only) during summer 2016 from shura and Sacha.








    °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

Here are a few troublesome questions about the collapse theory
              Reply #83
...............................
Depending on how the snow and wind fell
at the ravine, I believe that the snow could easily make a snow bridge . It happens in nature , the stream could still run free underneath any snow.
...............................................

I did not understand exactly the scenario that you ( Ziljoe ) are defending.

It seems to me that you are inspired by the wolverine theory that Igor B exposes in the 112 pages of discussion on the website
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133

There are today, May 29, 2022, 2231 posts unfortunately in Russian.

But thankfully Ziljoe offered us a quick summary.

Ziljoe  : Theories Discussion -> General Discussion -> They were NOT crushed by snow  March 25, 2021, 10:24:15 PM - Reply #41
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=858.msg14426#msg14426

« From what I can astatine and in a very basic explanation , the ravine 4 were possibly the first to die. The area is very different today than how it was 60 years ago with vegetation. The nature of the wind would blow the snow over the ravine. (Igor shows an example photo) . It is possible that there was a natural snow cave over the ravine. It is suggested that the may have dug out some more snow and made the roof of the cave too flat which makes it more likely to collapse. The reason they are found the way they were is because they were sheltering themselves and using the coats to cover each other, or sharing them. It doesn't mean they were lying in the stream and there may have been some migration of the bodies when the thawing started.

If there was a couple of meters of snow above them and it collapsed , it could explain the broken ribs and maybe the eyes being forced out as Dona has suggested. Igor B explains a lot of this and why there are less damage to their hands and why only one side of the ribs are broken. Igor B explains the nature of the snow in a collapse and how it becomes harder and more compact.

 It was identified at the time of digging them out  that the snow was hard».


Please note that the judgement of Askenadzi is interesting here:
«I do not think they could have dug a hole and a cave with their bare hands. They may have trampled a small pit for the den, and after that it snowed on top. The depth is about right...».

•••
In a nutshell, the theory of Igor B explains well the exit from the tent but does not convince me on the issue of the causes of the injuries of the 9 hikers commented by Tumanov.

•••
- How to explain the natural formation, on February 1, of a cave or an arch (snow bridge) large enough to hold 4 people ?

In my opinion, the water that could, perhaps, flow under the snow, on February 1, would produce a quite insufficient space.

There would be at most 1 cm between the ceiling of hardened snow (almost ice) and the water (at the temperature of melting ice i.e. 0° C) that would flow underneath.

•••
About the hypothetical voluntary displacement of 7 meters of the "ravine's Four" which leave the Den to go and settle at the Ravine.

- Who built the Den's four branch beds? Was it not the "ravine's Four" on the initiative of Zolotaryov ?

- Why build these 4 beds of branches, which certainly required time and effort since the "ravine's Four" had no tools and only one pair of gloves ?

- Why would they want to leave the 4 beds of branches ?

- How, probably in complete darkness, did they hope to find a better protected place ?

- Why would the "ravine's Four" have chosen this particularly unsuitable place since there was a waterfall of 70 centimeters high ?

- Why was Dubinina found, on May 5, in a position in the direction of the current, thus perpendicular to the three others that were across ?

- Why, after having chosen to settle in this hypothetical cellar that they considered safer, did the ceiling suddenly collapse on them ?

- ...etc.

 (On the contrary with my criminal theory TOKEB (Tumanov + Oestmoen + Kandr + EBE + BottledBrunette) all these questions, and others, disappear since they are not even posed ! ).

Practical warning: as my Reply #84 is too long, I will add later some instructive pictures for the aspect of the Den-Ravine which are provided by Igor B on the website :    http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

May 29, 2022, 09:34:59 PM
Reply #85
Offline

Ziljoe


     
Conventional vocabulary used : "ravine's Four" - Den - Ravine

•••  The "ravine's Four" =  Dubinina, Thibeaux-Brignolle, Zolotaryov, Kolevatov.

•••  The Den = the location where the 4 beds of brushwood cut on May 4 or 5, 1959 were found.l'endroit où ont été trouvé les 4 lits de branchage les 4 ou 5 mai 1959.

•••  The Ravine = the location where the 4 corpses of the "ravine's Four" were found on May 5, 1959.

   



    °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

7 meters is the distance Den <--> Ravine following Vassilii Zyadik
Do you agree with Vassilii Zyadik's synthetic image reconstruction ? It could be correct.

If you agree then the Den is located 7 meters upstream from the Ravine .I'm not sure of the relevance?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
(In the following I will refer to this location found on May 4 or 5 as: the Den-Ravine.)


 
 



    °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

less snow on February 2 than on May 5
              Reply #82
............ there was less snow when they started sheltering there, and snow cover significantly increased after the incident,[February 2]....
It is impossible to know exactly how deep the snow was at the Ravine on February 2, 1959, i.e. 3 months before the discovery of Dubinina's corpse on May 5 by Askenadzi («  I...saw a piece of meat on the hook...»).
https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?rbid=18461

But we can nevertheless be sure that there was less snow on February 2 than on May 5 !

How can you be sure? Less snow where? May was the time of thawing ,so I would argue on the whole, there would be less snow in May than February? Would there be more snow in June than may? The snow depth will change with the wind on exposed areas. Given the fact that the searchers found raised footprints , suggesting wind/ snow errosion or drifting but the 3 bodies on the slope were found under different levels of snow suggests the level changes quickly on exposed areas.The ravine area would just fill up with snow to the levels of the surrounding terrain. That might have happened in November the previous year? ( I don't know exactly when the snow starts to fall n the area but I'm guessing it started long before January). 



    °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

The natural and progressive evolution of powder snow into hard and compact snow
              Reply #83
..... Especially if it has been hardened by compression. Again think of the snow after sliding off a roof of a house , it's stays hard on the ground. Similar to the snow left by snow ploughs at the side of the road.

Yes. It is also necessary to take into account the alternation of freezing and thawing...
The natural evolution of freshly fallen powdery snow to progressively turn into hard, compact snow and then slowly into real ice is well known........

I'll disagree here. Not all fresh snow is powdery. It can be wet and of many different consistencies. The compression  concept is with regards to friction and heat. Snow in an avalanche changes and goes hard. Less air and friction ? Like wise depending on the temperature, ( think snowballs) you can get snowballs that you can make into a lump of ice that hurt when one receives it or snow that just won't stick or compress and falls apart? So think of a mass of 2 meters of snow  above falling a meter?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9v%C3%A9

Névé  is a young, granular type of snow which has been partially melted, refrozen and compacted, yet precedes the form of ice. This type of snow is associated with glacier formation through the process of nivation.[1] Névé that survives a full season of ablation turns into firn, which is both older and slightly denser. Firn eventually becomes glacial ice – the long-lived, compacted ice that glaciers are composed of.[2] Glacier formation can take days to years depending on freeze-thaw factors.........
Névé has a minimum density of 500 kg/m3...


So no need to invoke sloped house roofs or snow ploughs on at the side on roads that were not in the area around the cedar.

It's an example of what happens to snow when it compresses, gravity or being forced together.
Think of the consistency of snow that drops that is maybe slightly wet. It compresses , goes hard as the air has gone. ( Snowballs again) . Then logically follow on to broken ribs, bodies under hard snow, chest cavity is the most vulnerable. Then look at the report of the ravine 4 having to be dug out of hard snow. As for eyes etc , look at the report of the decaying bodies , in may, in running water. Then explain why there was more snow in May than in February?( That doesn't make sense)  The photos show there was exposed grass land in May? Plus I think ,if I remember correctly it was the searchers that found the pathway, rags of clothes etc after thawing( less snow) that led them to look in the "den/ravine" area?



    °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

Some deceptive photos that are misleading

The location of the Ravine (= the location of the corpses of the "ravine's Four" remained totally unknown until May 4 or 5, 1959.
(what is certain is that the Den was found before the Ravine).

According to Askenadzi :
https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?rbid=18461
• On the discovery of the Den :
...These branches, as it were, indicated the path from the chopped fir-trees to the ravine [in fact it was the Den]. It turned out that the hikers cut off the branches and dragged them into the ravine [the Den], losing some debris of the branches along the way. Where the path ended, there we started digging. The snow was wet, caked. We cut down blocks and took them out. That’s how we found the den. With trembling hands - thinking that we will now find the guys - we scooped up the snow. When we saw an empty den, it became very painful. Where are they? ......

• On the discovery of the Ravine :
...We had professional emergency avalanche probes designed to search for bodies. There is a hook at the end. It is necessary to poke, turn and pull it back. Mostly we pulled moss with the hook. And then I took out the probe and saw a piece of meat on the hook ....

Mihail Sharavin as well as  Vladimir Borzenkov   have failed to identify the location of the area "Den-Ravine".
https://dyatlovpass.com/controversy?flp=1#ravine
https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine-borzenkov

This explains why there are still photos that evoke some kind of ice cliff which are therefore misleading because they have nothing to do with the DPI.

Photo is not working for me, as I can't see this one.



Forget these misleading photos



    °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

The correct location of the Den-Ravine recovered after 1959

According to what I could read (or understand) on the present website of [/b]Teddy[/b], it is Shura Alekseenkov and Sasha KAN who have finally really located the Den-Ravine in 2011 and 2016.

https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine-alekseenkov-and-kan
https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine

Schematic plan of the area


Photos of the Den in the background and the Ravine in the foreground (but only) during summer 2016 from shura and Sacha.








    °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

Here are a few troublesome questions about the collapse theory
              Reply #83
...............................
Depending on how the snow and wind fell
at the ravine, I believe that the snow could easily make a snow bridge . It happens in nature , the stream could still run free underneath any snow.
...............................................

I did not understand exactly the scenario that you ( Ziljoe ) are defending.

https://www.mountaineers.org/blog/unseen-danger-navigating-snow-bridge-hazards

Snow bridges exist.

It seems to me that you are inspired by the wolverine theory that Igor B exposes in the 112 pages of discussion on the website
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133

I'm inspired by Igor b's  logic but I read everything also. I'm happy for all things to be questioned. Igor b argues a strong case.

There are today, May 29, 2022, 2231 posts unfortunately in Russian.

My software instantly translates any language, never been a problem.

But thankfully Ziljoe offered us a quick summary.

Ziljoe  : Theories Discussion -> General Discussion -> They were NOT crushed by snow  March 25, 2021, 10:24:15 PM - Reply #41
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=858.msg14426#msg14426

« From what I can astatine and in a very basic explanation , the ravine 4 were possibly the first to die. The area is very different today than how it was 60 years ago with vegetation. The nature of the wind would blow the snow over the ravine. (Igor shows an example photo) . It is possible that there was a natural snow cave over the ravine. It is suggested that the may have dug out some more snow and made the roof of the cave too flat which makes it more likely to collapse. The reason they are found the way they were is because they were sheltering themselves and using the coats to cover each other, or sharing them. It doesn't mean they were lying in the stream and there may have been some migration of the bodies when the thawing started.

If there was a couple of meters of snow above them and it collapsed , it could explain the broken ribs and maybe the eyes being forced out as Dona has suggested. Igor B explains a lot of this and why there are less damage to their hands and why only one side of the ribs are broken. Igor B explains the nature of the snow in a collapse and how it becomes harder and more compact.

 It was identified at the time of digging them out  that the snow was hard».


Please note that the judgement of Askenadzi is interesting here:
«I do not think they could have dug a hole and a cave with their bare hands. They may have trampled a small pit for the den, and after that it snowed on top. The depth is about right...».

I'm suggesting they found a hole/cavity.

•••
In a nutshell, the theory of Igor B explains well the exit from the tent but does not convince me on the issue of the causes of the injuries of the 9 hikers commented by Tumanov.

Igor b explains a lot of the injuries and why. Certainly more than a sharpened spoon to remove eyes....

•••
- How to explain the natural formation, on February 1, of a cave or an arch (snow bridge) large enough to hold 4 people ?

In my opinion, the water that could, perhaps, flow under the snow, on February 1, would produce a quite insufficient space.

See the link to snow bridges above.

There would be at most 1 cm between the ceiling of hardened snow (almost ice) and the water (at the temperature of melting ice i.e. 0° C) that would flow underneath.

•••
About the hypothetical voluntary displacement of 7 meters of the "ravine's Four" which leave the Den to go and settle at the Ravine.

- Who built the Den's four branch beds? Was it not the "ravine's Four" on the initiative of Zolotaryov ?

- Why build these 4 beds of branches, which certainly required time and effort since the "ravine's Four" had no tools and only one pair of gloves ?

The could of used their feet. All 9 of them could have helped. It might have been 6 of them , who knows.

- Why would they want to leave the 4 beds of branches ?

They found the snow hole/cave?

- How, probably in complete darkness, did they hope to find a better protected place ?

Was it dark?

- Why would the "ravine's Four" have chosen this particularly unsuitable place since there was a waterfall of 70 centimeters high ?

Was it a waterfall at the time?  It was thawing when the bodies were found.

- Why was Dubinina found, on May 5, in a position in the direction of the current, thus perpendicular to the three others that were across ?

Moved by the water perhaps , or entering the snow cave when it collapsed.

- Why, after having chosen to settle in this hypothetical cellar that they considered safer, did the ceiling suddenly collapse on them ?

Perhaps by trying to make it bigger. They kicked or scrapped away too much of the natural architecture of the strength of the arch. The arch reached a tipping point and collapsed. ( I have personal experience of this happing, no fatalities thankfully. But this has been reported on , especially kids making snow dens.)

- ...etc.

 (On the contrary with my criminal theory TOKEB (Tumanov + Oestmoen + Kandr + EBE + BottledBrunette) all these questions, and others, disappear since they are not even posed ! ).

Practical warning: as my Reply #84 is too long, I will add later some instructive pictures for the aspect of the Den-Ravine which are provided by Igor B on the website :    http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133
 

May 29, 2022, 09:37:52 PM
Reply #86
Offline

Ziljoe


Sorry, Jean Daniel Reuss,
I've tried but I'm useless at this editing stuff. My pc is broken and I've not quite learned how to edit on my phone. However , I've put in some replies.
 

May 30, 2022, 05:57:17 AM
Reply #87
Offline

Игорь Б.


Место настила определено сопоставлением фотографий и находится более чем 11 метрами выше по течению от тела Дубининой:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=62882

Это место настила подтверждается свидетельством поисковика Мохова:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=109721

Все остальные неправильно определяют место настила.
Прокурор Темпалов в том числе:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=72662
The answers to all the questions related to the death of Dyatlov group:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=110407
Evidence of the death of the Dyatlov group from the Wolverine chemical weapon:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=69286
 

May 30, 2022, 06:01:28 AM
Reply #88
Offline

Игорь Б.


Таким образом, оба снежных укрытия располагались над уступами, а не под ними. Это не случайно.
Только так можно было копать снег без лопат. Не имея возможности выбрасывать снег наверх они сталкивали снег ногами вниз с уступов:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=62991
The answers to all the questions related to the death of Dyatlov group:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=110407
Evidence of the death of the Dyatlov group from the Wolverine chemical weapon:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=69286
 

May 30, 2022, 06:07:46 AM
Reply #89
Offline

Игорь Б.


Как можно выкопать снежное укрытие без инструментов:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=73389
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=88853

Именно поэтому перчатки у Тибо были не на руках, а в кармане куртки:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=99479
The answers to all the questions related to the death of Dyatlov group:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=110407
Evidence of the death of the Dyatlov group from the Wolverine chemical weapon:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=69286