Theories Discussion > Murdered
Injuries
Star man:
--- Quote from: mk on December 11, 2020, 08:21:46 AM ---
--- Quote from: Star man ---How can a trained expert in combat ensure that the all the ribs break at their weakest point using repeated blows.
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I'm not sure if I understand it right, but I think that this is one of the basic problems with the injuries. Dubinina and Zolotaryov both had more than one rib that was broken in two places. As I understand it, this is called a flail chest because it leaves a section of ribs "floating free"--that are not connected to other ribs. It seems that ribs only break this way in unusual circumstances. Generally, the rib will break first at its weakest point. After that, when force is applied, the rib will keep giving way at the broken place. It seems, from what I've read here, that in order for a rib to break in two distinct points the pressure must be instantaneous, exceedingly strong, and applied in a specific way. Being hit by a car is one way this happens. It can also happen if someone falls from a good height while they are unconscious. (If they are conscious, they usually have broken limbs as they try to break their fall.) There are a few good posts on here about flail chests; I'll try to find and link them.
ETA: Star man, were these your own calculations I'm thinking of? Seems like I remember your doing some study about the chest injuries and various possibilities.
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Yes. I did analyse the chest injuries and my conclusion is pretty much what you have outlined. I think WAB did a more detailed analysis than I did. It does appear that the chest injuries were caused by a massive blow at high speed, equivalent to a fall from 3 to 4 metres. To put it into perspective, for a human to inflict the same injury and apply the same impulse to the chest, they would need to be capable of knocking a person 3 to 4 metres vertically into the air. Know anyone who can do that? Another option would be to drop a very heavy boulder onto them from about 2 metres, say 150kg to 300kg. It might be possible for several people to do that.
Regards
Star man
RidgeWatcher:
I worked in Trauma Surgery, more or less for over twenty years. Even in traumas you don't see it very much. When you do see it you know you are in for a ride because the underlying damage to the coronary structures and pericardial sac along with the lungs almost always is going to be compromised. These days with all the air bags you see it less than say when your chest hits a steering wheel directly on, at over 30mph.
I am not sure how Semyon's nor Lyuda's flail chest happened but I have a difficult time thinking it happened by falling 12 feet onto some boughs on top of the snow. I have always had a hard time seeing this. When you do see flail chest there is almost always a visual malformation of the chest and skin surface with signs of trauma and it is very painful with the patients most likely in shock. The last 20-30 minutes for those two had to be horrifying, terrifying if they were conscious. Out there in the cold I have a hard time believing that anyone could cause this with a weapon unless Semyon and Lyuda were being held down or held against a tree.
Star man:
--- Quote from: RidgeWatcher on December 11, 2020, 07:52:36 PM ---I worked in Trauma Surgery, more or less for over twenty years. Even in traumas you don't see it very much. When you do see it you know you are in for a ride because the underlying damage to the coronary structures and pericardial sac along with the lungs almost always is going to be compromised. These days with all the air bags you see it less than say when your chest hits a steering wheel directly on, at over 30mph.
I am not sure how Semyon's nor Lyuda's flail chest happened but I have a difficult time thinking it happened by falling 12 feet onto some boughs on top of the snow. I have always had a hard time seeing this. When you do see flail chest there is almost always a visual malformation of the chest and ski surface signs of trauma and it is very painful with the patients most likely in shock. The last 20-30 minutes for those two had to be horrifying, terrifying if they were conscious. Out there in the cold I have a hard time believing that anyone could cause this with a weapon unless Semyon and Lyuda were being held down or held against a tree.
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Agreed. Would have to fall onto hard objects like large boulders. I can’t see any human wielded weapon causing these injuries either.
Regards
Star man
RidgeWatcher:
Flail chest would mean that either Semyon and Lyuda were injured where they were found or they were carried there, most likely from the Cedar tree area.
"The most dangerous aspect of flail chest is that there are now razor sharp bone ends directly over their lungs. Those sharp bone segments are moving against the natural movement of the chest, which essentially equates to having knives grating around in your chest cavity every time you breathe. You’re going to want to address that. Don’t press on it unless you’re sure their heart has stopped. If it has, you’re not going to do any additional damage anyway, so you may as well give it a try. If you’re unsure if it’s flail chest, but they’ve got the symptoms that make you suspect it; treat it as flail chest until proven otherwise".
If they were conscious they were having difficulty breathing and would probably have a difficult time answering any questions. This is a long shot but Lyuda may have been placed in her awkward stream position to alleviate her pain??? while she was still conscious but in shock.
Could the Dyatlov students know how to take care of this in the field? Semyon, from his war experience, had seen flail chest, I am sure. Lyuda had been shot by accident on another outing.
Warning: Not for the Squeamish, this is an in hospital patient with flail chest, I am only presenting this to show how incapacitated they would be down by the Cedar and the Ravine.
sarapuk:
--- Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on December 11, 2020, 02:52:47 AM ---
--- Quote from: GKM on December 09, 2020, 04:18:31 PM ---Anthony Beaver is a historian and has written what is regarded among scholars as the preeminent book on the battle of Stalingrad. In 1942 as the Red Army was planning their counter offensive several companies of Siberian troops were called up and being trained very secretly. Their commander had them dig deep trenches and ordered the soldiers to lay in them after which T34 tanks were driven over them. Done as encouragement to make certain the soldiers dug their trench deep. This was called "ironing". I am certainly not suggesting there were tanks anywhere nearby, not by any means, but the 3 injuries that were fatal could have been caused by a pressure equal to the "ironing" method. Merely food for thought. A massive amount of pressure. But how this pressure occurred to those 3 souls I have no idea.
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Some important features of the injuries of Dubinina and Zolotaryov:
1. Their breast cages had suffered major force.
2. The broken ribs were not accompanied with injuries to their limbs.
From 1) and 2) we can infer this:
- The broken ribs could not have been caused by a fall, even if the slope had been sufficiently steep to allow a high impact. If there is a fall, the unfortunates do rarely if ever fall on their ribs with no damage to the face or limbs.
- The broken ribs could not have been caused by an avalanche, because there were demonstrably no traces of avalanches in the area and the terrain did not allow for any avalanche. Moreover, it would have been improbable that only the rib cages were damaged with no similar pressure damage to the face and limbs. So these crushed rib cages could not have been caused by avalanches.
- Any vehicle which were run over them would have severely damaged the limbs, and not only parts of the rib cages would have been affected. In addition, such heavy vehicles would have left deep tracks - whereas ski tracks made by the attackers would have been completely erased between February 2 and February 26.
Therefore, Dubinina and Zolotaryov must have been killed as a result of being subjected to very hard blows. Such blows might very well be delivered by trained close combat specialists who know that repeated blows with the elbow (or perhaps a rifle butt) to the rib cage will kill the victims by internal bleeding and/or cardiac arrest. The pattern of injury found in these two victims seem compatible with one or two attackers holding the victim upright in a fixed position while another attacker deliver the lethal blows. Be that as it may, there is nothing to indicate that they were run over by any form of vehicle.
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On the contrary. A fall could have caused such injuries. But it would have had to have been a fall from a significant height. Higher than at the Ravine. The injuries could also have been caused by something crushing them.
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