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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche theory
« Last post by Ziljoe on April 14, 2024, 12:28:01 PM »Arjan,Why do position of the bodies not resemble death by hypothermia?
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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche theory
« Last post by Arjan on April 14, 2024, 12:14:53 PM »In case the complete Dyatlov group might have left the tent area on the slope - after a snow slab might had crushed the tent - at the beginning of a cold night, there is one certainty thas is caused by thermodynamica of the human body.
The group members might have been able to keep their body core temperature at 37 degrees celcius during 2 hours by moving and performing work like making the den and gathering firewood.
After two hour, the body core temperature might had started to drop 0.5 degrees Celcius every 30 minutes.
Around 4 hours after leaving the tent area, their body core temperature might had dropped to 33 degrees celcius and they might had been in profound ful hypothermia. The full group might had fallen in apathy.
Around 6 hours after leaving the tent area, all group members might had lost consciousness for the last time in their life.
Around 8 - 12 hours after leaving the tent area, the heart of every group member had stopped beating.
Around 18 hours after leaving the tent area, the process of rigor mortis had started to develop in the bodies.
Around 36 - 48 hours after leaving the tent area, the bodies had been solidified in ice.
There is one certainty: in case the group members might had left the tent area at the same time, outsiders had placed the group members in the postures as they had been found by both search parties. These outsiders had done this within a very tight time frame, because the raised arm of Yuri Kri indicates rigor mortis in the joints.
Only Zinaida had been found in a posture that resembles death by hypothermia, the other group members had been found in a postures that do not fit death by hypothermia.
The group members might have been able to keep their body core temperature at 37 degrees celcius during 2 hours by moving and performing work like making the den and gathering firewood.
After two hour, the body core temperature might had started to drop 0.5 degrees Celcius every 30 minutes.
Around 4 hours after leaving the tent area, their body core temperature might had dropped to 33 degrees celcius and they might had been in profound ful hypothermia. The full group might had fallen in apathy.
Around 6 hours after leaving the tent area, all group members might had lost consciousness for the last time in their life.
Around 8 - 12 hours after leaving the tent area, the heart of every group member had stopped beating.
Around 18 hours after leaving the tent area, the process of rigor mortis had started to develop in the bodies.
Around 36 - 48 hours after leaving the tent area, the bodies had been solidified in ice.
There is one certainty: in case the group members might had left the tent area at the same time, outsiders had placed the group members in the postures as they had been found by both search parties. These outsiders had done this within a very tight time frame, because the raised arm of Yuri Kri indicates rigor mortis in the joints.
Only Zinaida had been found in a posture that resembles death by hypothermia, the other group members had been found in a postures that do not fit death by hypothermia.
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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche theory
« Last post by GlennM on April 14, 2024, 07:14:07 AM »There were two locations presumed to be where the tent was on 1079. The second location identified in 2019 and corroborated by photo evidence, puts the tent on a steeper slope on which the hikers excavated a ledge for leveling their tent. It is entirely likely that a slab slip crushed the tent there. It is entirely likely the hikers left the tent assuming that if they dug out their tent immediately, continued snow movement would again cover the tent as well as themselves. They did the right thing to get away from the tent in those circumstances. Ironically, less experienced hikers would have probably stayed and dug back into the tent and survived the crisis.
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General Discussion / Re: The Last Leg
« Last post by Arjan on April 13, 2024, 12:11:44 PM »Thank you Axelrod for this additional information.
My reply had been only based on Case files vol 1: sheets 11 - 20.
The notebook of Maslennikov indicates that the group had several maps with them.
Remark on the reply of Partorg:
In case Google maps is correct and my interpretation of this part of the map is correct, then the group had ascended around 350 meter over a distance of 1000 meters: see this relevant part of Google maps:
This is a slope of 35 % or around 20 degrees on average(!): pretty challenging with 30 kg back pack (and 20 kg for the female group members) while carrying two skis and ski poles by hand.
Probably this slope did not have a clear track: it had to be taken into account that the group may well had to find and make a new track.
These kind of slopes pose a risk for sliding group members: in case of a slide, a victim will ascelerate quickly to a speed that poses a high risk of a serious injury.
The post mortem report of Zinaida states:
- 'On the surface of the area of the lower back on the right side of the abdomen there is a graze wound of bright red color in the form of a strip sized 26 x 6 cm.'
This graze wound may well have been caused by a small tree that had stopped Zinaida during/after a slide.
Frame 28 from film no 1 may provide a hint: Zinaida is standing bent while Alexander is looking worried in the direction of Zinaida/Lyudmila.
Of course not a full sound proof.
My reply had been only based on Case files vol 1: sheets 11 - 20.
The notebook of Maslennikov indicates that the group had several maps with them.
Remark on the reply of Partorg:
In case Google maps is correct and my interpretation of this part of the map is correct, then the group had ascended around 350 meter over a distance of 1000 meters: see this relevant part of Google maps:
This is a slope of 35 % or around 20 degrees on average(!): pretty challenging with 30 kg back pack (and 20 kg for the female group members) while carrying two skis and ski poles by hand.
Probably this slope did not have a clear track: it had to be taken into account that the group may well had to find and make a new track.
These kind of slopes pose a risk for sliding group members: in case of a slide, a victim will ascelerate quickly to a speed that poses a high risk of a serious injury.
The post mortem report of Zinaida states:
- 'On the surface of the area of the lower back on the right side of the abdomen there is a graze wound of bright red color in the form of a strip sized 26 x 6 cm.'
This graze wound may well have been caused by a small tree that had stopped Zinaida during/after a slide.
Frame 28 from film no 1 may provide a hint: Zinaida is standing bent while Alexander is looking worried in the direction of Zinaida/Lyudmila.
Of course not a full sound proof.
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General Discussion / Re: The Last Leg
« Last post by Axelrod on April 13, 2024, 10:53:27 AM »Three of these items - that are not found by both search parties - are:See https://dyatlovpass.com/maslennikov-notebook
- maps of the area
- a gasoline stove for heating food and water in case of emergency
- basic mountaineering gear beyond two ice-axes.
Personally I think that the group did not have these items/gear with them.
The absence of maps may have caused that the group had not passed the Dyatlov pass.
Scan 13: The following documents were found in Dyatlov's field bag:
1) Nine train tickets Sverdlovsk-Bogoslovsk for 23/1
2) Trek plan (with all the details)
3) Trip book №5 (3 copies - 1 signed Ufimtsev)
4) Protocol of the route commission 1 copy
5) Maps: Sheet R-39, 40 (Syktyvkar, Khanty-М), part of the Ivdel forestry map, several photo maps, 3 tracing paper from forestry maps
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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche theory
« Last post by WinterLeia on April 12, 2024, 09:10:38 PM »I’m highly skeptical of the avalanche or snow slab theory. The slope is just not steep enough.
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General Discussion / Re: The Last Leg
« Last post by Partorg on April 12, 2024, 07:55:27 PM »On February 1, they did not advance far, as they left the camp lateb Left late, because firstly apparently woke up late as always, and secondly, because it took a long time to assemble the labaz.
Dry wood in the area, as noted in the diary dated January 31, was scarce, but having a ready supply of firewood for the fire by the time we returned from Otorten was more than desirable.
In principle, could stay on Auspiya for one more night, giving themselves an unplanned day off (d'nyovka) but they decided not to do this and spend the rest of the day taking a starting position on the upper contours of the Ridge.
A long climb, even on a slope of 15°, takes quite a lot of energy, and they preferred to do it in the evening, so that in the morning, with fresh strength, they would move along a hard relatively flat surface to Otorten and, if the weather did not drive them off the Ridge into the Lozva Valley, to return in the evening to Auspiya.
Naturally, the discomfort of spending the night on the Ridge was easily predictable, but a sports hike was not a Sunday picnic and they were mentally prepared for it.
Dry wood in the area, as noted in the diary dated January 31, was scarce, but having a ready supply of firewood for the fire by the time we returned from Otorten was more than desirable.
In principle, could stay on Auspiya for one more night, giving themselves an unplanned day off (d'nyovka) but they decided not to do this and spend the rest of the day taking a starting position on the upper contours of the Ridge.
A long climb, even on a slope of 15°, takes quite a lot of energy, and they preferred to do it in the evening, so that in the morning, with fresh strength, they would move along a hard relatively flat surface to Otorten and, if the weather did not drive them off the Ridge into the Lozva Valley, to return in the evening to Auspiya.
Naturally, the discomfort of spending the night on the Ridge was easily predictable, but a sports hike was not a Sunday picnic and they were mentally prepared for it.
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General Discussion / Re: The Last Leg
« Last post by GlennM on April 12, 2024, 06:45:53 AM » Arjan, you bring up a valid point. Perhaps this is why late starts were noted in a diary. They were Slow to rise and slow to get going. Does it give us a clue? For me, barring physical problems, a slow pace suggests casual confidence, attutude, or hubris, depending on one's point of view. If it was indeed a physical problem, that points to weather. Again, there is language in a diary about that.
If one believes as I do that the final camp was on 1079, we could make the case that the hikers were forced off the slope for better shelter or to save one of their own. Too,since weather is at issue, once they got to the area of the cedar, we need no tent to have Teddy's tree come down. It was allegedly very windy.
The overall impression I get is that the hikers were striking a balance between physical exertion and mental relaxation before returning to the daily grind back home. It was just more predictable at home.
If one believes as I do that the final camp was on 1079, we could make the case that the hikers were forced off the slope for better shelter or to save one of their own. Too,since weather is at issue, once they got to the area of the cedar, we need no tent to have Teddy's tree come down. It was allegedly very windy.
The overall impression I get is that the hikers were striking a balance between physical exertion and mental relaxation before returning to the daily grind back home. It was just more predictable at home.
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Expeditions to the Dyatlov Pass / Re: Ski Expedition "The Dyatlov Group Trail -2024" | January 27 – February 7
« Last post by Олег Таймень on April 12, 2024, 05:07:27 AM »80
General Discussion / Re: The Last Leg
« Last post by Arjan on April 12, 2024, 04:04:33 AM »This kind of winterhikes pose a general challenge: lack of daylight.
Sunrise had been at that day/place: 8:30 am
Sunset on a flat area at that day/place: 17:00 pm
This leaves 9 hours for activities during 'daylight'.
On a normal hiking day, this group had used around 1.5 hour the break up and around 1.5 hour to arrange a camping site for the night.
This leaves 6 hours for tracking.
The campsite east of Kholat Syakhl had posed a very specific challenge.
The journalist collective Aleksej Rakitin has shown on page 110 of the German edition 'Die Toten vom Djatlow-Pass':
- on that day/place the sun had disappeared at the camp site around 14:30 pm behind Kholat Syakl.
Everyone who has been in the mountains knows that it will cool quickly in case the sun sets behind the mountains.
This fact may be an additional reason for the short last leg.
Sunrise had been at that day/place: 8:30 am
Sunset on a flat area at that day/place: 17:00 pm
This leaves 9 hours for activities during 'daylight'.
On a normal hiking day, this group had used around 1.5 hour the break up and around 1.5 hour to arrange a camping site for the night.
This leaves 6 hours for tracking.
The campsite east of Kholat Syakhl had posed a very specific challenge.
The journalist collective Aleksej Rakitin has shown on page 110 of the German edition 'Die Toten vom Djatlow-Pass':
- on that day/place the sun had disappeared at the camp site around 14:30 pm behind Kholat Syakl.
Everyone who has been in the mountains knows that it will cool quickly in case the sun sets behind the mountains.
This fact may be an additional reason for the short last leg.