March 28, 2024, 10:45:27 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

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11
General Discussion / Re: Avalanche theory
« Last post by Axelrod on March 26, 2024, 08:01:15 AM »
From an interview with rescuer Karelin in 2020 (in movie with Teddy and Vietnamka):
He arrived on February 27 at the Dyatlos pass.

[–] 60 years have passed. Are you still wondering what happened there?

[KARELIN:] 61 years have already passed. But the interest does not fade. The state is obliged to give an answer to relatives. The fact that some hypotheses are offered to us makes us smile. Especially from various prosecutors who tell us: “Yes, it’s an avalanche!” Even before this hike, I was caught in an avalanche in winter in Altai. I knew what an avalanche was. I knew what traces there would be from the avalanche. I flew with the first helicopter on February 27 to the place of death. There are absolutely no traces of an avalanche there. No traces!



Из интервью с поисковиком Карелиным в 2020 году (он с 27 февраля был на перевале):

[–] Прошло 60 лет. Вам до сих пор интересно, что там произошло?


[КАРЕЛИН:] Прошёл уже 61 год. А интерес не угасает. Государство обязано дать ответ родственникам. То, что нам предлагают какие-то гипотезы, они вызывают у нас усмешку. Особенно от различных прокурорских деятелей, которые нам говорят: «Да это лавина!» Вот ещё до этого похода я зимой на Алтае попадал в лавину. Я знал, что такое лавина. Я знал, какие следы будут от лавины. Я с первым вертолётом прилетел 27 февраля на место гибели. Никаких следов лавины там совершенно нет. Никаких следов!

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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche theory
« Last post by GlennM on March 26, 2024, 07:31:56 AM »
Making a theory evidenced by forum data is the de facto method of participation. Explorers like Teddy, contribute materially to the forum through actual research. However, the old saw " the pen is mightier than the sword" is certainly true in our situation. We lean on those first hand accounts in the diaries and mourn what the diaries don't say.

When you think about it, they were pretty good at keeping records, so this unknown compelling force interfered with what should have been a spontaneous entry in any diary.
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General Discussion / Re: A blast from the sky
« Last post by Axelrod on March 25, 2024, 02:10:13 AM »


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General Discussion / Re: A blast from the sky
« Last post by WinterLeia on March 24, 2024, 11:17:42 PM »
I’m not entirely sure what you are talking about. The only clipping of a Tagil Worker’s newspaper article that I could find in the case files is dated February 18, and it starts off as: “At 6:55 of local time yesterday…” And I wouldn’t say it was about a rocket launch, but a celestial phenomenon. Yes, that could be a rocket. But it could also be a meteor or an otherworldly fireball, if you happen to be Lev Ivanov. So maybe I missed something?
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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche theory
« Last post by WinterLeia on March 24, 2024, 03:36:00 PM »
I definitely believe that the answer is somehow probably weather or nature related. I certainly consider a slab avalanche to be much more likely than murder, but it would still be an unusual occurrence that would require the hikers to have  created the conditions that caused it. They even state that and show that photograph, which as far as I’m concerned, shows so little that I do not know how they can tell they’re even setting up the tent and not digging the labaz. I can accept they’re setting up the tent. But it certainly doesn’t prove that they created a slab that came down on them. Furthermore, I’m not even sure if G & P did any field work, other than go out and take a picture of a site two miles away from the tent to prove that a slab avalanche was possible at the tent. Also, G & P evidently, didn’t realize there was a difference between slab avalanches and regular ones, because they took a picture of a site where they can happen naturally to compare to one where the only time in recorded history one happened, ostensibly being February 1/2, 1959, it was due to human intervention. I know that Dr. Borzenkov did do field work, though. And computer models are great. But they don’t take the place of fieldwork. You can make anything happen on a computer if you put the right parameters in. They should match what exists in the real world, though, and the only way you’re going to confirm that is to compare them to the actual scene you’re trying to set up. In addition, they don’t even release the raw data, so other people can run their own models and confirm it. Why? What are they afraid of people finding out?

I don’t having a problem with people endorsing a theory. But the evidence in this case is just too contaminated and too fragmentary to really say that this definitely happened or that definitely happened. It’s even worse because we don’t even know what clues belong. Did the hikers create the footprints or was it the searchers? What did the tent really look like before it was messed with? Could Luda have really walked away with one of her ribs piercing her heart or is that just a medical aberration that happened once or twice?  And I really feel like that no matter how they feel about the theory they should at least acknowledge the weaknesses in it. That they try to prop it up and say that the case is solved is the biggest thing that makes me suspicious of it.
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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche theory
« Last post by GlennM on March 24, 2024, 12:23:36 PM »
We should consider that for all intents and purposes,  those who put time, energy and expertise into solving the mystery are not trolls.  I always say, " follow the money". If someone stands to cash in from the tragedy, that is suspicious. It is suspicious because of selectivity of the evidence put forward.

I also contend that extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. Everything about this incident can be put down to weather. There is nothing to indicate it was not. Weather drove them out, Weather trapped them in the woods. Weather froze them returning.That's Occam's Razor. However, weather is not going to sell books.

Avalanches are large scale events. Slab slips and snow bank collapses are not. They are as different as a windy day and a hurricane.

When the forum inquiry started, it is a perfect snapshot of the times. Spacemen, Snowman, falling objects from space, including rocketry, military run amok. These are all 50's and 60's cultural tropes! If the forum began in recent past, we would expect pandemic diseases, ebola type mystery virus, psychological programming as probable causes.
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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche experiments from Oleg Taimen, Stas, etc.
« Last post by Axelrod on March 24, 2024, 04:19:24 AM »
I just don’t understand why the avalanche version is initially positioned among other versions as a version devoid of mysticism.

Such a scenario of events, when a deadly avalanche suddenly hits a secluded place, the camera turns out to be placed instead of a pillow, when in a group of 9 people - 3 people are seriously injured, moaning, can hardly walk, it turns out that 6 uninjured are divided into 3 pairs, where two people carry or lead by the arms one seriously injured person (Kolya, Lyuda, Semyon), some get lost on the way down in different places. do not reach the cedar (especially leader of this group), Two people go to look for him but pass by, because of this the fourth person, when falling on the descent, breaks his head with a crack in the skull...

This, you know, is a very mystical version - for some horror movie!
===
Я только не понимаю, почему версия лавины изначально позиционируется среди других версий как версия лишённая мистики.

Такой сценарий развития событий, когда в укромном месте вдруг налетает смертоносная лавины, фотоаппарат оказывается подложенным вместо подушки, когда в группе из 9 человек - 3 человека тяжело травмированы, стонут, с трудом могут идти, получается, что 6 не пострадавших разделяются на 3 пары, где вдвоём несут на руках или ведут под руки  одного тяжело травмированного (это Коля, Люда, Семён), некоторые теряются на спуске вниз в разных местах. не доходят до кедра (особенно если это руководитель группы), Двое человек идут его искать но проходят мимо, из-за этого четвёртый человек при падении на спуске разбивает голову с трещиной на черепе

Это, знаете ли, очень мистическая версия, - для какого-нибудь фильма ужасов!
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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche experiments from Oleg Taimen, Stas, etc.
« Last post by Ziljoe on March 23, 2024, 04:30:34 PM »
Your family seems to be highly involved? ....

Just saying...
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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche theory
« Last post by Ziljoe on March 23, 2024, 04:29:17 PM »
I think there's several interpretations of the avalanche.  So when we talk about an avalanche, we must decide what's being said.

I could dig a hole in a snow drift, if it collapsed on me....is it an avalanche? No... But it would make me move as I wouldn't just lie under the snow.

I think there's lots of confusion regarding "all" our interpretation.

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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche theory
« Last post by WinterLeia on March 23, 2024, 04:15:40 PM »
The avalanche probes were used at the ravine, not the tent, and I don’t have a problem with something like that happening there. Maybe they fell in and dislodged a whole bunch of snow and it fell on them. Any number of things could haven fallen on them in the forest, or that they could have fallen into. Now, can I say with 100% certainty that an avalanche did not happen at the tent? No. But I think Dr. Borzenkov’s proves that it would be a very unusual event. Plus, G & P are being very disingenuous in misrepresenting the site where avalanches occur as being a lot closer to the tent area than it really is and not explaining that it is already known as a place where avalanches happen. It’s not a new discovery, which is what they represent it as. So what do we have as evidence:  a study of two people who are willing to stretch the truth to make their theory sound better; a government that’s probably sick and tired of the whole subject and realizes that it’s not going to go away if they can’t provide an definite answer; a photo that was supposedly taken at 5:30 the evening of the avalanche, which I do not believe for one second that they could tell what time it was in a black and white photo on a cloudy day with no shadows, and the snow on a tent that had already been messed with and had stood out there for three weeks, with snow blowing all over the place. An extraordinary happening requires extraordinary evidence. And an avalanche happening on that slope would be extraordinary. The evidence, unfortunately, is not. So I don’t find it at all unreasonable to be highly skeptical of the theory.

Furthermore that other avalanche theory in that link has the avalanche hitting the entrance of the tent, with  Zolotaryov being one of the ones being injured because he was sleeping at the entrance. The official avalanche theory rules that out, because the entrance was not collapsed, which it surely would have been had an avalanche rolled over it.
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