Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: amashilu on September 03, 2022, 09:11:53 AM

Title: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: amashilu on September 03, 2022, 09:11:53 AM
Theory: Working Backwards

Many idea fragments in this theory were borrowed from other theories, but utilized differently here. You will recognize, I’m sure.

Working backwards:
The starting point for this theory is the Russian government’s reaction to the tragedy. It is the foundation of this theory. There were a lot of levels of the Russian government in 1959, and a lot of organizations involved, such as the KGB, the military, local committees such as Sverdlovsk regional committee, the different parts of The Party, special services, UPI, UPI Youth division, etc. and I don’t for a minute pretend to understand them all and how they all fit together. But there is no doubt there was great consternation about the Dyatlov hikers’ deaths that went all the way up to Khrushchev.

   “After the discovery of the last 4 bodies in the ravine in the first days of May, Kirilenko summoned Korotaev to the investigator's    office and unequivocally explained:
   "Khrushchev is notified that the students froze to death and the case must be closed.” After this visit, Korotaev was unexpectedly    fired from the investigation all together. On May 28, 1959, investigator Lev Ivanov (his successor) closed the case.”

That is something that should stop and make us think right away. The highest levels of government were almost too interested, firing the first investigator Korotaev (why exactly?), giving Ivanov orders to “close the case” prematurely, withholding documents such as histological results on the victims, photos, some diaries, autopsy information, and so on. Why were they so interested?

I have read a few times on this website that of all the cases handled by the investigators, not a single other one had ever stimulated this kind of interest and interference by the government. Of all the cases of murder and hikes gone wrong, the Dyatlov case was unique in this regard. From high up, the government immediately initiated a cover-up, deliberately creating a curtain of mystery and missing information that persists to this day.

Let’s ask why? Why could the government have been so keenly interested in this incident? I propose that something about the tragic death of these 9 people would have resulted in serious “egg on their faces.” Russian officials have always been concerned with the face Russia presents to the rest of the modern world. They want to show the world they are first and best in every area, from moon travel to the Olympics and also maybe development of nuclear power or some new kind of rocket technology. There are many reports of them testing new and bizarre weaponry in the 1950s and 1960s, before nuclear testing was banned in 1963.

So, then, what could have happened here that would have humiliated or embarrassed the Russian top-level officials to such an extent that they had to immediately cover it up? If the hikers had really just died in an avalanche (the official story, supported by the Russian government), there would be reason for sadness and horror, but not all the secrecy, quick closing of the investigation, making investigators sign a non-disclosure agreement, and hiding of information.

There is the possibility that the government, at some level, had a stake in this expedition from the start.

How could that happen?

We know that Bienko was pulled from the expedition and Zolotaryov substituted in his place. In later years, Bienko was asked in an interview if he thought there was some ulterior motive to this and he said no because “in those days, everything was much more honest.” I would probably disagree with that.

I suggest that Zolotaryov was a plant, with a special task. He was given a special camera, to be used just for this task, and a special notebook to record the results. (Yuri Yudin did not know about this camera, as it was not the one Zolotaryov usually carried.)

He was also unusually happy and jolly on this trip, singing, laughing, joking. His history apparently indicates that he was not a happy person, getting fired from several jobs, getting kicked out of others, punching his aunt, being overly strict and authoritarian with some child he was responsible for (I forget who). What happened that he was so friendly and jolly on this trip? I propose he felt that he finally had a purpose.

Zolotaryov hinted to his students and also, according to a journalist, some people on a bus (?) that after awhile, the whole world would be talking about this expedition. He was very happy. He was going to make a name for himself at last.

It is proposed that no other members of the group knew about this. They were innocent and not involved, although as he and TBO instantly became BFFs, Zolotaryov did confide in him. He just couldn’t keep it to himself.

The Event
Zolotaryov and TBO went outside the tent to begin the experiment. They were fully dressed. Zolotaryov set up the special camera, and had the notebook and pencil in his pocket, to record the event.

Let’s propose that Zolotaryov was supposed to test out some new object for the government or the military (a radiosonde? a nuclear low-yield thing? acoustic testing, as Bienko suggests?) and film it. (Vladimir Nagaev,”Military Test with Radiosondes”).

As Zolotaryov launched his object and began to take pictures, something went wrong. An explosion? Gas?

Possibly he or TBO realized the terrible danger and called to the others, or maybe there wasn’t time to call. Inside the tent, Slobodin was just beginning to get ready for sleep and had taken one boot off. Then the explosion happened, the gas pervaded the area, their skin turned orange or dark brown, radiation was released, the “hydrogen sulfide” suggested by Vladimir Nagaev pervaded the tent, bodies were thrown around, chests were crushed, they were essentially blown up, eyes blown out. If some of them had had time to go outside, the blast could have been blown them down the slope.

Needless to say, they all died. TBO’s and Zolotaryov’s skin was greenish-gray. Everyone else’s was orange, black, purple, or brown.

Ivanov’s friend says, “When Ivanov returned from the scene of the tragedy, he told me that if he were superstitious, he would have believed in the devil. What happened to the guys couldn't have happened due to natural causes. …  May 4, 1959, when the bodies of Dubinina, Thibault and Zolotaryov were found. These bodies inside were as if crushed by a powerful Uralmash press.”

I don’t know how radiosondes or nuclear blasts “work.” Would the tent have been shredded? or do these types of explosions only destroy solid bodies? the way tornadoes can smash one thing to smithereens while skipping another altogether, or drive a single stick of hay through a wall.

The government body that had sent Zolotaryov on this expedition was anxiously awaiting communication from him, his report and photos about the outcome of the experiment. They were expecting him to communicate with them by a certain date. When they didn’t hear from him after a day or two, worried because they knew the danger of what they had asked him to do, they sent a helicopter (ice circle later seen by one pilot whose name I can’t find, but who said it was 3m away from the tent and was clearly from a previous helicopter) or crater later seen by Novokreschenov, who described himself as an “artillery man who knows a crater when he sees one”).

The men sent from the government to check on the situation saw immediately that the hikers were all dead.

The four worst wounded bodies were thrown into the ravine, in the hope that the water would help to speed up their decay. Those who weren’t so badly wounded were dragged and dropped into the snow at various places. Hence, the pretty obvious indications that the bodies were moved after death, several of their arms pulled into dragging position.

Zolotaryov’s notebook was taken immediately upon searchers finding his body, by Colonel Ortyukov, head of the military department of UPI.

Tent
There are some reports that say the tent was found in a neat and orderly condition, with shoes and boots lined up against one wall, and so on. Others say it was completely topsy-turvy, with everything in basically a frozen, random mess. Some say the tent had flaps and holes, others say it was shredded. I do not know if a tent could be torn up by a blast like this but remain standing?

Flashlight, extra ice axe
The government clean-up men left a flashlight on the top of the tent and forgot an ice axe which they left in the snow. They may have built the fire by the cedar tree to cook over and/or warm themselves while they worked. As has been mentioned several times, that fire was not a roaring fire, not one likely built by expert hikers to keep themselves warm for several hours. It was small. There were matches all around it. I think this would be from the clean-up people.

When these clean-up men reported back to the government what they had found, the government knew immediately that they had to cover it up. After all, they were responsible for killing these guys.

Footprints
It is proposed that the footprints going from the tent downhill were not the hikers at all, but the clean-up people. Teddy has shared with us the report of the professional investigator who studied the footprints and said they were all made by people in boots.

Den
I don’t think the “den” was a part of any of this; it has always seemed illogical to me that searchers were able to dig down 20 feet at some random place in a huge field of snow, and voila! there is the “den,” precisely where they dug, to the very inch, so it looks in the photos.

Cedar
The cedar area was apparently commonly used by Mansi hunters and others as a stopping place. The den and the branches chopped off the cedar could have been done by anyone.

The tops of some of the trees were reported as burnt in a kind of random way. Easily the result of this explosion up at the tent.

Clothing exchange
Is it a technique of crime scene cleaners to move clothing from body to body to confuse things? I think the main goal of these clean-up people was to get rid of evidence, confuse other evidence, and make it look like the victims had all simply frozen, as much as possible. So is moving clothing around something they would do? (Is there a handbook for how to clean up and confuse a crime scene?) It has always seemed odd to me that some clothing was found just strewn about in the snow. If these folks were freezing to death, they would not let any scrap go unused, for sure! But professional crime scene confusers might have just dropped some clothing around to make things more confusing.

Flaws in this theory
This theory is rudimentary and does not account for many things. I hope someone will modify it, change it, or refine it. What bothers me the most are the hand-to-hand combat wounds, Dyatlov’s ankle ties, the burns on Krivonischenko’s legs (unless he was burned by the chemical explosion), and the exchange of clothing. It also bothers me that no injuries were to anyone’s limbs, all were to the crucial center of the bodies such as head and chest. If you were blown up by an explosion, wouldn’t your arms and legs be as wounded as your main body and head?

I do think Zolotaryov was planted. His background is the classic one for a mole. But it really doesn’t make a lot of sense that some high level of government would have him join a skiing expedition with some university students to try out a dangerous new weapon. Why not send their own group of specially trained people instead of using this group?

I am sure not all bodies, parties, and levels of government knew about this secret exercise; therefore, some of them were continuing to try their best to solve the mystery, while others didn’t seem to care much, do a thorough investigation, or even behave with curiosity, as if they already knew something. Others, obviously not “in the know,” asked such things as if there was any evidence the students were trying to flee to North America, and other indications that they had not been clued in. The drastic change in Ivanov’s behavior after the discovery of the 4 in the ravine, followed by his closing the case with a vague conclusion, was an indication that he did know or suspect something.

Other theories
I do like Per Inge Oestmoen’s and Jean-Daniel Reuss’s theories about murder and torture, and so many times I have tried to accept one of these two theories, but I can’t understand how or why anyone ANYONE would go to such lengths to torture and brutalize young strangers. It makes no sense. There was no personal vendetta against them. Can you just walk up to some people and do such barbaric cruel things for no reason?

At any rate, I do think the Russian government had a stake in this expedition, I do think Zolotaryov was the mole, and the government knew long before anyone else that something had gone wrong; they had to close the case and hide the evidence to avoid international embarrassment.

So there you have it, please feel free to tear it apart and see what you can do with the pieces.

**************
30 March 2023 Addendum: A document Teddy just translated and posted (https://dyatlovpass.com) refers to the surprising fact that the powers-that-be flew Zolotaryev's mother around Mt. Otorten in a helicopter and pointed out where the tragedy took place 2 months before her son's body was even found (March 6, 1959) and then granted her 1,000 rubles in compensation for his death. As Teddy says, "... we can assume that compensation to Vera Ivanovna could be paid by a certain power structure with which Zolotaryov was connected."  This new document confirms for me that Zolotaryev was on a mission.



Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: GlennM on September 03, 2022, 01:31:07 PM
I am impressed with this analysis. Where I run into problems is that if this was high stakes test gone wrong, leaving corpses around is only inviting forensic investigators to get to the truth. That would be the last thing a conspirator/patriot would want.
I hope more comments are posted,
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: MDGross on September 03, 2022, 02:38:22 PM
amashilu, I appreciate all the thought you've presented. I've wondered about Zolotaryov, also. He was fired from a couple of jobs, accused of punching his aunt on occasion, gave a bribe so that he could get into an apartment quicker and filled out job applications using different birth dates. I believe he must have felt unfairly persecuted because his brother had been shot as a traitor during the war. It's difficult to imagine that on the Dyatlov hike he was calm, collected and respected. It's as if he had become a new man.
Two years ago I contacted the CIA under the Freedom of Information Act for any information it might have on Zolotaryov. I received a letter about a week later stating that "the CIA can neither confirm nor deny the existence or nonexistence of records responsive to your request. The existence or nonexistence of records is classified and its intelligence sources and methods of information protected by the National Security Act." Good luck trying to understand what that means!
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: GlennM on September 03, 2022, 07:30:42 PM
Zolotaryov didn't get away with anything, did he?
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: MDGross on September 04, 2022, 06:58:35 AM
Who can say if Zolotaryov was trying to pass secret information to the CIA? Like so much speculation in this strange mystery, it remains a possibility. After the war, Zolotaryov never seemed to fit in. He tried military school twice, but for whatever reason never finished. As I pointed out in my post above, his behavior was erratic and got him into trouble. Plus, he had his brother's war time crime hanging over him. If he wasn't loyal to the Soviet Union, I can understand why.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: amashilu on September 04, 2022, 08:12:38 AM
Thank you for your comments, both of you!

I know this theory is flawed and I welcome thoughts about it.

I do feel like it's almost obvious that Zolotaryov was a plant.


Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: GlennM on September 04, 2022, 11:47:31 AM
If he was a plant, is there any compelling evidence that he muscled his way into the tour? I would certainly think that things would have proceeded with more deliberation if it were a plot. I think there would have been a gun. I think corpses would be hidden. What a mystery this is!
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: amashilu on September 04, 2022, 12:35:41 PM
The text says
Quote
Bienko as a student was summoned to the Komsomol committee, where he was questioned what he had done during the last summer and winter holidays, when his comrades and fellow students helped the national economy on labor fronts - on state farms, timber industry enterprises and at construction sites in the country. It turned out that Vladislav had spent all his holidays on mountain hikes! Well, if so, then the Komsomol member Bienko was immediately awarded a ticket to the "Udarnik" timber industry enterprise, and no higher school administration could help him escape this fate.
- Even our head of the department, Professor Pal Zakharych Petukhov, could not help me, - recalls Vladislav Bienko, - with whom I had very good relations. I had to give my share of equipment and food to Semyon Zolotaryov, who replaced me, an instructor at the Kourovka tour base. And when the time came for the group to leave for the North, all I could do was help my comrades load heavy backpacks on the train.
– It turns out that Semyon Zolotaryov took your place in the group?
– Yes, because my place vacated.
– Maybe the Komsomol specifically sent you to the timber industry camp in order to make room for Zolotaryov?
– No I do not think so. In those days, everything was much more honest.

This is one of the place where my ignorance of the Russian systems comes into play. According to the above quote, the Komsomol Committee was the body that coordinated the removal of Bienko and the insertion of Zolotaryov. Who was the superior of the Komsomol Committee? These are things I don't know, but should be known somewhere.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Manti on September 04, 2022, 05:58:23 PM
My subjective opinion is that Zolotaryov was a plant, by the Party, or rather, its local branch.

Not for any espionage or military purposes, but to ensure that this innocent skiing trip is exactly that and nothing else. To make sure this group that includes some geology students aren't clandestinely looking for the Ural gold. Or that they don't secretly head south instead of north and try to emigrate via the mountains there, to Pakistan or Iran or another "Western-aligned" (at the time) country.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: GlennM on September 04, 2022, 10:03:04 PM
Manti, that is an interesting take. Zolotaryov may have been a plant, but let's follow the money. What evidence can we produce to show he was paid? I thought he was in the expedition to increase his qualification for employment. A master of sport, I think it was. Wasn't it Zina who was the dyed in the wool Communist? Surely she would not be a party to defection. She might like a bit of gold, but I do not recall them having any, nor panning equipment. Since they wanted to travel over frozen streams to aid their trek,  panning would not be much of an option in February. Hmmm.

Since the thread is about working backwards, I think the Soviet authorities would conclude that the hikers died tragically due to an unfortunate natural disaster. Then, they would cast about to find someone they can assign blame to in order to appease the families of the deceased. Case closed. All this business of relocating a tent and other conspiracy scenarios are totally unnecessary. Bad things happen to good hikers.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: WarpedWing on September 09, 2022, 03:09:15 PM
Very interesting take, amashilu. I, too, have been struck by that quote from Zolotaryov about the whole world soon knowing about the expedition. Prophetic, indeed, if he wasn't aware of the tragedy yet to unfold. I mean, I'm glad he was enthused about it, but he thought the world will be talking about a hike around some mountains? Really?

I've been intrigued by theories of some sort of experiment gone wrong. I'm not sure the injuries were due to an explosion. An explosion powerful enough to cause the damages on the trauma victims' bodies would likely disperse shrapnel, which would have left tell-tale lacerations on the victims (and tent/trees, etc.) at best, and shot them full of holes at worst. That being said, the reports of fire-damaged trees is interesting, along with reports of lights in the sky in the vicinity of the hikers. If the reports on lights in the sky are true, whatever happened may not have blasted the hikers away, but it may have directly or indirectly caused the hikers to perish through other means.

What if Zolotaryov was supposed to observe a military test on his fellow hikers but accidentally got "dosed" along with them?

But why any of this would happen is beyond me. That's the big pill that's hard to swallow. The government has plenty of soldiers to test military operations on. Why bother with student civilians?

If the government really was at fault, I don't believe that the on-scene investigators knew about it. They weren't very good forensic investigators, it seems, but they did seem truthfully perplexed at what happened. Which would be a perfect arrangement if and only if the crime scene was so perfectly scoured and sanitized as to be completely devoid of real clues pointing toward government involvement or anything beyond a natural death. Think of all the students traipsing around during the search! That is very, very difficult to do, especially in such a remote place. It would take a serious effort, and the likelihood that the government would be seen doing cleanup by, say, one of the Mansi, would be high. Helicopters, trucks, snowmobiles, etc., make a lot of noise too, and might seem out of the ordinary for that remote area. One would think it would have been easier just to gather the bodies and tent by sledge and make it all disappear.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: GlennM on September 09, 2022, 03:44:46 PM
Warped Wing, you are on point. Truth is simple, Conspiracies and cover ups are not. The more exotic the explanation, the more the researcher must allow as a possibility. At some point, you can't suspend your disbelief.

I can accept a seismic tremor or an aerial concussion sending a slab over the tent at elevation. 880 on 1079. I can accept a catabatic wind causing a snow buildup which precipitates a collapse of the cut in ledge at 880. I can accept hikers making a retreat to the woods and then suffering calamity. Conspiracy? Cover up? You don't leave corpses around. Dead men do tell tales. Again, good job.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: WarpedWing on September 09, 2022, 03:53:50 PM
Quote from: GlennM on September 09, 2022, 03:44:46 PM
Conspiracy? Cover up? You don't leave corpses around.

Correct.

It'd be the easiest coverup in the world, honestly. Those involved could have transported the bodies a little bit more off the beaten path and they wouldn't have been found for years if not decades. All that would be left would be bones by the time anyone found them, if they ever did. Then the mystery could be simply, "they walked off and were never seen again." And if the bones were found one day, it really wouldn't matter. One thaw cycle and all (1950s) forensic evidence would be gone. The hikers' bones being found half a mile from their intended route would be no stranger than finding their tent up a barren, windswept hill.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: amashilu on September 10, 2022, 10:16:59 AM
Quote
Those involved could have transported the bodies a little bit more off the beaten path and they wouldn't have been found for years if not decades.

A good point. Maybe throwing the 4 worst-injured bodies into a creek a mile away felt like that was "well off the beaten path" ?
They left the 5 others because their bodies could plausibly have "frozen to death."

The points that most stood out to me, in developing this theory, were:


These, I hope, are all facts, not theory. I can't tie them all together any other way than this theory; they do make me lean strongly towards Zolotaryov being a government plant, performing some kind of experiment that went terribly wrong, and that he had taken TBO into his confidence and that is why the 2 of them were outside the tent, fully dressed, while the others were in the tent.




 
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on September 10, 2022, 03:07:43 PM


Quote from: amashilu on September 10, 2022, 10:16:59 AM
                    Reply #13   
.....they do make me lean strongly towards Zolotaryov being a government plant, performing some kind of experiment that went terribly wrong,...

I had written a text that gathered some of your ideas (February 03, 2020, 11:04:13 PM).
This is a more complete and detailed text, but longer!

Theories Discussion ---> Altercation on the pass ---> Altercation on the pass : Reply #15
 
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg8382#msg8382



Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: GlennM on September 10, 2022, 05:55:10 PM
There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

Follow the money.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Ziljoe on September 10, 2022, 06:38:20 PM
Quote from: GlennM on September 10, 2022, 05:55:10 PM
There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

Follow the money.

Hi GlennM

Could you expand on your post?

You qoute Jean Daniel Reuss and say follow the money?

I don't understand
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: GlennM on September 10, 2022, 09:57:43 PM
Ziljoe, the quote came from Mr. Reuss, a few posts previous to mine. If he advocated for professional killers, then he must know they do not work for free. Who would pay for the slaughter of nine innocent people who are highly educated, effective citizens and loved by their families. Follow the money. Someone paid and someone collected. Was this all precipitated by uranium? If uranium is the issue, don't you think certain areas would be off limits? Personally, I do not subscribe to this theory of hired killers. I don't think that Soviets would be detonating bombs or lobbing missiles at an ore depositemsite any more than they would at the pre existing logging camps. I think they, the hikers,  got caught up in a bad situation caused by weather and circumstance. A tragedy from natural causes.  How about you?How do you feel about it?
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: amashilu on September 11, 2022, 05:24:40 AM
Jean Daniel,

Thank you for the link to your 2020 theory. I just finished reading it. It seems you and I were struck by all the same red flags.

One thing that interests me is the statement by the prisoners way back in 1959 who said, "The hikers were killed. But you are looking in the wrong place!"

I worked inside a men's prison for 10 years and it is absolutely uncanny how the prisoners know things before the staff does - and they are always spot on. In our "prison training classes," we were warned about this. The prisoners watch everything and have a speedy pipeline for information. This shocked and amazed me time and time again, how they knew information way before the staff did.

 I am SO sorry that someone did not interview these prisoners in 1959 further to find out what they knew about the hikers' murders because I am sure they knew.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: GlennM on September 11, 2022, 06:44:34 AM
Though logical and articulate, this conspiracy depends too much on chance. It is an interesting read.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Ziljoe on September 11, 2022, 07:25:29 AM
GlennM

I lean towards something natural. I respect Igor b's Wolverine theory and  his explanation of the injuries.

I don't believe there were secret activities taking place given the Mansi were free to roam and hunt.  If there was some cover up, I don't think the authorities would have let students/Mansi join the search.

Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on September 11, 2022, 03:32:56 PM
Quote from: WarpedWing on September 09, 2022, 03:53:50 PM
                    Reply #12   
It'd be the easiest coverup in the world, honestly.
........................

You sound to me like a creative novelist sitting comfortably in front of his computer screen.

In reality, there is the cold, the darkness, the soft or slippery snow, the fatigue, the Ivdel airport more than an hour away.......
When it comes to staging nothing is simple and often "the devil is hidden in the details."

Quote from: WarpedWing on September 09, 2022, 03:53:50 PM
                    Reply #12   
... Those involved could have transported the bodies a little bit more off the beaten path and they wouldn't have been found for years if not decades.
 Those involved could have transported the bodies a little bit more off the beaten path and they wouldn't have been found for years if not decades.
.......................

So that the investigators can say :
"Unknown people obviously transported the bodies."

And where did they deposit them?

Buried under the snow: but they will be discovered in June, when the thaw comes.

Buried in a deep pit: but the frozen ground is hard to dig through and the earth must be camouflaged by excess soil.

At the bottom of the Auspiya or Lozva river, but the bodies rotting tend to rise to the surface

I think that it is then easy to know if they were simply drowned or if the bodies were thrown into the water when they were already dead.

Moreover, you forget about the wolverines around, who are experts at finding all that good meat and scattering it around inconspicuously.

Evacuating the bodies from a great distance would have been feasible if it had been possible.
I can rather deduce that the attackers did not dispose of a helicopter; nor even of sledges pulled by fast reindeer teams


Quote from: WarpedWing on September 09, 2022, 03:53:50 PM
                    Reply #12   
..........
And if the bones were found one day, it really wouldn't matter. One thaw cycle and all (1950s) forensic evidence would be gone
.......................

If the bones were found 50 years later you are probably right

If the bones were found 5 years later I think a connection with the disappearance of 9 good Soviet citizens in the area
would be immediately suspected.

" One thaw cycle and all (1950s) forensic evidence would be gone".

Because you think that in 1959 the Russian investigators were ignorant, incompetent and stupid.

Hard-to-explain skull and rib fractures can be identified on the skeleton 10000 years after death



 
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

My TOK theory is not yet complete but here are some points that will be developed.

The criminal attackers were very savvy (wise) and experienced (but had neither the habits, nor the rational training, nor the material resources of the KGB).

They knew that the best solution for them was not to try to stage a counter-productive staging, but rather to leave the scene quickly.

(However, for fun the attackers could afford to cut the tent from the inside before leaving).

 As a result, the 9 corpses were found by the rescuers in close proximity to where the hikers died.

This may give clues to the attackers' combat methods (total surprise in the dark, no firearms, cunning and deception,
exit the tent by choking gas or dressed wolverine..............


Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: GlennM on September 11, 2022, 05:50:56 PM
Mr. Reuss, your opening remark appears a bit overstated. I am certain anyone who participates in this forum has some sense about the times and the atmospheric conditions., If we must have villains, I will name them.. Mother Nature and Father Time.

A point of contention seems to be that there were murderous people hunting the Dyatlov 9. The matter of how and where the hikers died, the evidence that the living took clothes from the dead all argue against  a slow, monitored mass murder in the forest. The victims acted independently, not supervised, else Zolo would not have something to write with.

 It was argued that murderers do not leave their victims for an easy discovery. Hiding them buys time. The response to this was that manipulating the dead would bring suspicion on the living. That is perhaps too convenient an explanation. Everyone, without exception leaves trace evidence of where they have been, including murderers. Too, staging an "accident" takes time.

Another idea is imagining these killers camped out along the forest waiting for the hikers to blunder into some trap. Then what? Sheep to the slaughter? Would they not resist? Who chased off a bear? Who stood their ground against stampeeding horses? Who was a outspoken female communist? Yes, the bodies sustained damage. Bludgeoning?  No.  Fighting? Arguable, but unlikely,since they were too bundled up to be effective.

I think your theory is a well thought out research. Is there any force fitting evidence to make the case?  I hope you  use your findings to make a prediction. That would be an achievement and a risk to your hypothesis, if it is falsified. As of now, I see no need for a conspiracy to murder. Although we write from the comfort of shelter, we can still imagine a natural disaster claiming the lives of the Dyatlov 9.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on September 12, 2022, 03:58:03 PM

Quote from: GlennM on September 11, 2022, 05:50:56 PM
                    Reply #23
......................
If we must have villains, I will name them.. Mother Nature and Father Time.
........................
I can only note that you are not of the same opinion as Vladimir Askinadzi
https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?filter_page=4&rbid=18461
Last paragraph:

" They could not just freeze in those conditions."

Quote from: GlennM on September 11, 2022, 05:50:56 PM
                    Reply #23
............................................................
 It was argued that murderers do not leave their victims for an easy discovery. Hiding them buys time.
....
It was a terrorist attack and the murderers wanted to give wide publicity to their misdeed.
But this would have shown the incompetence of the KGB in protecting 9 excellent Soviet citizens.
As a result, in 1959, and also in 2019, the Kremlin tried to cover up this unimportant case.

The internal security situation in the USSR in 1959, with the competition for power from multiple local leaders (officials), is very complicated.
You can find a vague overview here:

Teddy   :   Victims --> Aleksander Kolevatov --> Rakitin's version on Kolevatov
(All rights belong to Alexei Rakitin).

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=297.0

.........As is known, after the massacre of Beria and the "Beria gang", Nikita Sergeevich Khrushchev and his associates decided on a full-scale reform of the USSR state security system. The demolition was cardinal and was carried out in several directions at the same time. The KGB of the USSR, created on March 13, 1954, was very different from the state security apparatus created in the post-war years. (the NKVD).
................................
After the arrest of Beria in the state security organs, a large purge was carried out, a large number of experienced workers either retire, were transferred to work at the police, or lost party membership and military ranks. The total number of dismissed reached, according to various estimates, 16 thousand people, among them more than 40 generals. Beginning in 1954, they were replaced by young employees of the new formation - not just young, healthy and dedicated to the party.................

In other words, the murder of the 9 hikers is a small episode among others in the purge of Stalinist dignitaries (officials) compromised with the NKVD, by the KGB on Khrushchev's orders


Quote from: GlennM on September 11, 2022, 05:50:56 PM
                    Reply #23
...........................
waiting for the hikers to blunder into some trap.
......
The murderers do not wait for the hikers to fall into a trap

They attack by surprise - and the surprise is complete - by making the atmosphere inside the tent suddenly unbreathable :
("they lanched a kind of dope inside).
The idea coming from Igor B. of a specially trained wolverine is not excluded either.

You said : "What next? The murderers Blows with a baton?  No".

I don't understand your logic because I would say bludgeoning?  Yes, of course. (But it is longer and more sportsmanlike than with a repeating firearm).

Practitioners of Krav maga or Systema (hand-to-hand combat methods for warfare) explain how to kill with their bare hands.
(and in this case for the first 5 hikers it was useless to kill them completely because it was enough to knock them out and the cold finished them more or less quickly.

In order to pass the numerous controls around the Ivdellag, by the ordinary police of the MVD and also by the KGB agents, the three attackers-murderers were armed only with simple "blunt objects".

As a result, the deadly "Altercation on the pass" lasted until the morning of 2 February.
https://dyatlovpass.com/watches?filter_page=2&rbid=18461


Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: GlennM on September 12, 2022, 06:38:57 PM
Mr. Reuss, Thank you for a thoughtful reply. What do you believe is necessary to make your theory complete and irrefutable?
Can the proof you seek ever be found? I know that you are a member of long standing in the forum and advocate for a unique point of view. I am content to accept the official explanation. It satisfied all the important why and how questions for me.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Ziljoe on September 12, 2022, 07:13:56 PM
Hi Jean Daniel Reuss,

You quote Vladimir Askinadzi, I would like to put in the full quote of his last paragraph and the question put forward to him. The questions at the time Vladimir Askinadzi was asked seem to be retrospective. Possibly well after information was publicly available.not only that but there are contradictions in a few of his replies.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Why did you decide that on there was a murder on the pass?

- I thought a lot about this and came to the conclusion that no spontaneous force could kill the nine healthy and fit guys. They could not just freeze in those conditions. Well, again, these inexplicable injuries. Don’t ask me, I don’t know who or why were they murdered. But this seems to me the only explanation of their death.
---------------------------------------------------------

Vladimir Askinadzi is speculating from hind sight, not from any informed research. Much like the rest of us even though he was there at the time. ???

So to quote Vladimir Askinadzi on his last paragraph, I shall also choose this part of it.

"Well, again, these inexplicable injuries. Don’t ask me, I don’t know who or why were they murdered. But this seems to me the only explanation of their death."

Vladimir Askinadzi doesn't seem to know

It's not fact....
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Игорь Б. on September 13, 2022, 12:37:15 AM
Quote from: Ziljoe on September 12, 2022, 07:13:56 PM
- I thought a lot about this and came to the conclusion that no spontaneous force could kill the nine healthy and fit guys. They could not just freeze in those conditions. Well, again, these inexplicable injuries. Don’t ask me, I don’t know who or why were they murdered. But this seems to me the only explanation of their death.
Тоже Аскинадзи, только в 2012 году:
Quote
Прочитал как-то статью одного энтузиаста, по-моему, Юрия Кунцевича. Причину гибели ребят он видел в происках спецслужб. По его версии ребят убили, поскольку они стали случайными обладателями какой-то страшной тайны. И чтобы замести следы перед общественностью, их погрузили на вертолёт и сбросили на землю с большой высоты. Отсюда и прижизненные раны, отсюда и положение тел, словно по заранее отмеченной прямой!! Это даже нельзя назвать глупостью, это патология. В то время власть плевала на общественное мнение, ей не от кого было прятаться.
Quote
Последний раз Вас прошу, если хотите, умоляю,- выбросите из головы вариант с убийцами. Он приведёт Вас в тупик. Только потеряете время. Не было там никого, кроме дятловцев.
http://samlib.ru/p/piskarewa_m_l/askinadzi2.shtml

Какие новые знания о происшествии приобрёл Аскинадзи с 2012 года? Только те, которые показывали в многочисленных ток-шоу по телевизору.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Ziljoe on September 13, 2022, 09:00:06 AM
Quote from: Игорь Б. on September 13, 2022, 12:37:15 AM
Quote from: Ziljoe on September 12, 2022, 07:13:56 PM
- I thought a lot about this and came to the conclusion that no spontaneous force could kill the nine healthy and fit guys. They could not just freeze in those conditions. Well, again, these inexplicable injuries. Don’t ask me, I don’t know who or why were they murdered. But this seems to me the only explanation of their death.
Тоже Аскинадзи, только в 2012 году:
Quote
Прочитал как-то статью одного энтузиаста, по-моему, Юрия Кунцевича. Причину гибели ребят он видел в происках спецслужб. По его версии ребят убили, поскольку они стали случайными обладателями какой-то страшной тайны. И чтобы замести следы перед общественностью, их погрузили на вертолёт и сбросили на землю с большой высоты. Отсюда и прижизненные раны, отсюда и положение тел, словно по заранее отмеченной прямой!! Это даже нельзя назвать глупостью, это патология. В то время власть плевала на общественное мнение, ей не от кого было прятаться.
Quote
Последний раз Вас прошу, если хотите, умоляю,- выбросите из головы вариант с убийцами. Он приведёт Вас в тупик. Только потеряете время. Не было там никого, кроме дятловцев.
http://samlib.ru/p/piskarewa_m_l/askinadzi2.shtml

Какие новые знания о происшествии приобрёл Аскинадзи с 2012 года? Только те, которые показывали в многочисленных ток-шоу по телевизору.

Thank you Igor b,

In this link you post, which is rather interesting.
http://samlib.ru/p/piskarewa_m_l/askinadzi2.shtml

He says that zina was strong , a leader in her own right and he suspects that she suffered her facial injuries from trying to plough her way through the snow with her face. Also he adds there was hard snow on her chin.

Are his statements reliable?
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on September 13, 2022, 03:21:19 PM

Quote from: Ziljoe on September 12, 2022, 07:13:56 PM
                    Reply #26   
...............................
Vladimir Askinadzi doesn't seem to know
It's not fact....
I agree with you; Vladimir Azkinadzi makes only personal assumptions and does not provide any indisputable evidence.

However, as he played an active role in the discovery of the corpses in May 1959, I attribute, perhaps wrongly, a greater relative importance to his opinions.

To effectively withstand the cold of Antarctica, penguins huddle together (and thus form the so-called turtle formation).

(https://www.archives-polaires.fr/i/?IIIF=/a2/6d/90/cc/a26d90cc-c1ca-44b0-a92c-6bd367950c2b/iiif/FAU_ME_00852.tif/full/!1024,1024/0/default.jpg)

So when Azkinadzi writes:
They could not just freeze in those conditions.

I wonder why the 9 hikers were not found frozen to death, but piled (stacked, crowded ....) on top of each other.

The hikers were no dumber than the penguins.


Quote from: Ziljoe on September 13, 2022, 09:00:06 AM
                    Reply #28
............................
Are his statements reliable?
It is strange; between these two interviews, although close in time, Vladimir Azkinadzi expresses very different opinions and conclusions.

https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?filter_page=4&rbid=18461
28 January 2014 13:16
 Authors Nikolay Varsegov and Natalya Varsegova

http://samlib.ru/p/piskarewa_m_l/askinadzi2.shtml
Author Maya Piskareva.
  Posted on: 10/09/2012, modified on: 17/02/2015.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Игорь Б. on September 13, 2022, 06:05:58 PM
Quote from: Ziljoe on September 13, 2022, 09:00:06 AM
He says that zina was strong , a leader in her own right and he suspects that she suffered her facial injuries from trying to plough her way through the snow with her face. Also he adds there was hard snow on her chin.

Are his statements reliable?
Аскинадзи прилетел на перевал в середине апреля и не участвовал в обнаружении тела Колмогоровой. Он говорит о ней с чужих слов.

А снег может ранить:
Quote
Вспомнилось, чувак на природе перепил и постоянно падал с тропинки в сугробы рядом с оной. Так у него руки все в кровище были, в ссадинах и порезах. Наст сильно ранит голую руку.
https://www.yaplakal.com/forum28/st/825/topic1537303.html?hl=#entry56527556

Quote
У него всё лицо было в крови потому, что ему разбило снегом лицо.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90715
(видео уже недоступно)

Quote
Как побыстрее вывести ссадину с лица, упала, ободралась об снег, чем помазать?
https://otvet.mail.ru/question/33649377

Quote
Ссадины на кожных покровах

При смерти от холода на лице, кистях, локтях и ко­ ленях часто бывают ссадины, иногда с кровоизлияни­ ями в подлежащих тканях. Эти повреждения эксперт ошибочно может принять за следы борьбы и сопротив­ ления насилию. По нашим наблюдениям, ссадины и реже, кровоподтеки на трупах лиц, умерших от охлаж­ дения, встречаются в половине случаев.

Повреждения встречаются одинаково часто как у лиц, погибших от холода в состоянии алкогольного опьянения, так и у погибших трезвыми.
Десятов В.П. - Смерть от переохлаждения организма.
https://studfile.net/preview/6703157/page:6/
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Ziljoe on September 13, 2022, 08:01:03 PM
Thank you Igor b, as always.

I find Vladimir Askinadzi statements and memories interesting.

 @igor b, if I may ask again, do you think Vladimir Askinadzi is reliable from his perspective or fantasising over fading memories?.

He said he knew Zina and seems to speak highly of her. It is difficult to fully iinterpret/ understand the context  from russian to English in the communication between the interview/questions but I see it as supporting the fact that the searchers and people in charge, rushed the investigation. Possibly they didn't care that much and just wanted it all concluded  and move forward ?

Maybe this rush to end any investigation has added to the mystery ? I note also that Vladimir Askinadzi describes the state of the bodies in the stream as being missing hair/skin  etc. Also, that the snow was wet above the bodies and it was a strong flow of water that they had to build a dam to excavate the bodies.

Is my interpretation correct?



Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Игорь Б. on September 14, 2022, 07:16:28 AM
Аскинадзи достаточно надёжен как свидетель. У него есть ошибки, но он не придумывает.
Я думаю дело закрыли потому, что обнаружили следы неизвестного химического воздействия в результатах химических и гистологических экспертиз, в связи с чем эти экспертизы исчезли из уголовного дела.
Причём, власти действительно не понимали причину этого химического воздействия. Власти знали, что они ни в чём не виноваты, но понимали, что не смогут доказать людям свою невиновность.
Проводить дальше какие-либо следственные действия было бессмысленно и следствие фактически признало, что не знает причину гибели туристов, сославшись на некую неизвестную стихийную силу. 
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: GlennM on September 15, 2022, 05:34:17 PM
Ziljoe, then again, could it be that the rush to judgement was based on the plain and simple truth that the hikers experienced a natural calamity?  It seems ( not to put too fine a point on it) that beating a dead horse won't make the horse go any faster. A natural calamity affected nine people, it's  explanation does not mean that they were sinisterly manipulated in life or death.  To me, the whole episode from the discovery to the investigation, to the burial shows good people doing their best with what they had to account for, administer and honor the dead. It does no good to hold Nature accountable. Nature is indifferent to us. It is easier to blame and suspect people because we are better equipped to inflict pain on each other than on a tree, snow or running water in a creek. Perhaps the original determination of an unknown compelling force should have been a transient compelling force. Even now, I accept the slab slip as an official theory. It is not fact. Comments?
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Ziljoe on September 16, 2022, 03:12:32 PM
Hi GlennM

It could be that they did the best they could , there was a lot of pressure to end the case. Once they found the last bodies in the ravine in a severe state of decay I would suspect they wanted  to move forward. The search for the hikers looks relatively straight forward. Students, locals , Mansi soldiers etc were all called in to find the group, hopefully alive. There doesn't seem to much secrecy about the search. Just a lot of speculation.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on January 14, 2023, 12:59:38 PM
Quote from: Ziljoe on September 11, 2022, 07:25:29 AM

I don't believe there were secret activities taking place given the Mansi were free to roam and hunt.  If there was some cover up, I don't think the authorities would have let students/Mansi join the search.


That was part of the cover up, as was the action taken towards the Mansi: They were first told that they were under suspicion. Then suddenly a seamstress said that the tent was cut from the inside, and this was used by the authorities to explain why the Mansi were not the killers.

What was behind the above? The Russian authorities including the secret police which more than likely orchestrated and executed the killing mission simply told the Mansi that "if you ever tell anyone what you saw during the night of February 2, we will not let you off the hook a second time."

That way, the Russian security forces made sure that the Mansi would remain silent.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: GlennM on January 14, 2023, 05:12:10 PM
If even a single Mansi enjoyed a toddy or two, I guarantee, the lubricating effect of beverage alcohol would have exposed the truth long ago.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Почемучка on January 14, 2023, 11:00:22 PM
Quote from: GlennM on January 14, 2023, 05:12:10 PM
If even a single Mansi enjoyed a toddy or two, I guarantee, the lubricating effect of beverage alcohol would have exposed the truth long ago.
Манси убивает именно водка. Они много и добровольно пьют. Но никто из них под воздействием этилового спирта - не бредит настолько, чтоб это было доказательствами для выше описанной теории.
It is vodka that kills Mansi. They drink a lot and voluntarily. But none of them, under the influence of ethyl alcohol, are delirious enough to be evidence for the theory described above.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: GlennM on January 15, 2023, 03:18:19 PM
Alcohol is a depressant. As such, it lowers inhibitions. Some,sing,,some,fight,some talk,  all sleep after a while. Mansi would talk if there was something to,say. They do not fear KGB who would rather be in Moscow, not waiting around in the snow.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Почемучка on January 15, 2023, 10:26:19 PM
Quote from: GlennM on January 15, 2023, 03:18:19 PM
Alcohol is a depressant. As such, it lowers inhibitions. Some,sing,,some,fight,some talk,  all sleep after a while. Mansi would talk if there was something to,say. They do not fear KGB who would rather be in Moscow, not waiting around in the snow.
Именно это я и хотела донести до Вас.
This is exactly what I wanted to convey to you.
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: GlennM on January 16, 2023, 07:30:07 PM
Great minds think alike dance1
Title: Re: Theory: Working Backwards
Post by: Почемучка on January 16, 2023, 09:02:53 PM
Quote from: GlennM on January 16, 2023, 07:30:07 PM
Great minds think alike dance1
Осталось довести Вас до того, чтоб Вы стали думать как русский...
It remains to bring you to the point where you begin to think like a Russian ...