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Author Topic: Nagaev's theory: radiation and orange skin  (Read 2411 times)

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January 17, 2023, 08:01:35 AM
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amashilu

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For people on this forum who know about radiation and chemicals, what is your opinion of this excerpt from Vladimir Nagaev's trilogy "The half-life of the group Khibina" ?



The forgotten heroes of the Soviet atomic project...

 ... In order to decontaminate the equipment, clothes and shoes of the dead tourists, in addition to those items that were found on the deck and dressed on the corpses found in the stream, the adherents of the "D" group used decontaminating solutions with surfactants such as sulfanol. Preparations based on surfactants were manufactured at the enterprises of the Soviet chemical industry in the form of powders or pasty masses with the conditional code SF. Aqueous decontamination solutions were prepared from these powders or pastes. Disinfection from beta particles was carried out in the following way: rags were moistened in a decontaminating solution and the areas of clothing, footwear and equipment contaminated with radioactive substances were wiped. Of course, the work was carried out with all the precautions - in overalls and gloves made of rubber fabric.     Sulfanol is a mixture of sodium salts based on kerosene, scaly crystals of yellow, brown color or a pasty mass of yellow-brown color. The active component of sulfanol can reach 80%. Sulfanol is a composite base for cleaning rubber, leather, cotton fabrics and metal surfaces. Let's well dissolve in water with formation of plentiful foam, has the good washing ability at solution temperature 30-40 0 C...     

In the materials of the criminal case "On the death of tourists in the region of Mount Otorten" there is a protocol for examining the scene: "Under the cedar in the hole, traces of a fire were found, as evidenced by half-burnt branches" (UD v.1, l.d.3). I believe that the fire served to heat the decontamination solution.     From the protocol of the interrogation of witness Maslennikov, head of the joint headquarters of the search groups: "The inspection of the scene testified that ... a fairly decent fire was lit from cedar branches and fir trees, but this fire burned for an hour and a half (eight-centimeter cedar boughs burned in half)" ( UD v.1, ld 68).     For the author of an independent investigation, information about the duration of the fire is of key importance in Maslennikov's testimony. This time (an hour and a half) is enough to cook hot water on a fire...     Depending on the chemical composition of water, sodium hexametaphosphate is added to the decontaminating solution, which is capable of forming soluble complexes with calcium, magnesium, barium and other chemical elements.     If you detail the chemical composition of sulfanol, then it contains at least 80% alkylbenzenesulfonate and no more than 15% sodium sulfate.

You won’t believe it, but sodium sulfate (a component of sulfanol) was obtained in the fifties at the Pervouralsk Chromium Peak Plant, where Igor Dyatlov’s father worked as the chief mechanic. Chrompeak sodium is an intermediate product in the process of processing chromium ore. Sodium sulfate is a waste product obtained during the production of sodium chrompic. So, it is sodium chromium peak that colors sodium sulfate in a red-orange color. Chrompeak sodium was used in tanning leather and as an antiseptic for elements of wooden bridges. It is known that after the death of Igor, his heartbroken father Dyatlov Alexey Alexandrovich practically did not communicate with anyone. He died early in 1970 at the age of 65. Igor's father perfectly understood the true the cause of the orange color of the skin on the corpse of the son.     For the chief mechanic of the chromium-peak plant, this was not a mystery .   
 
     This is what chromium peak sodium looks like   



  In 2011, the NGO "INTERNET CENTER of the tragedy of the Dyatlovites" received a letter written by the sister of the deceased Doroshenko, Irina Nikolaevna Rashevskaya. I quote a verbatim fragment of the text: "Then my mother brought Yurina's things ... But Yura was no longer alive. How my mother cried. I remember that she said and showed a sweatshirt and a sweater, they say, everything is not suitable. In orange, as it were, powder." A few years later, Irina Rashevskaya made a new statement about the orange color: "There was no talk about the powder. Just some things were, as it were, "stained" with orange."     Rashevskaya's latest statement is an indirect fact confirming the use of a decontaminating solution to disinfect Doroshenko's clothes. Firstly, the phrase "some things" indicates that only individual things were subjected to decontamination. Secondly, "some things were, as it were, "stained" with orange" indicates that chemical agents were used for decontamination, which changed the color of the fabric. Some things are a jersey and a sweater, which Rashevskaya listed in a letter. According to the protocol of identification of things, the list of items of clothing returned to Doroshenko's relatives includes: a blue quilted jacket and a blue sweater.

     I propose to conduct a virtual experiment and run an electronic color mixing converter in order to establish in which cases an orange color can be obtained. As a result of mixing colors, three options for the appearance of an orange hue are obtained:     a) orange = yellow + add red and brown;   b) orange color = yellow + add red;   c) orange color = white + add orange and brown.     So, three color shades (white, yellow, brown) are available in sulfanol and sodium hexametaphosphate, which are used to prepare a decontaminating solution. Sulfanol is yellow or dark brown flakes, highly soluble in water. The color range of sulfanol depends on the specific gravity of the active substance, and its share can be up to 80%. Sodium hexametaphosphate (condensed polyphosphate) is a white powder, highly soluble in water.     Important detail! Condensed polyphosphates give strong complexes with elements of II, III and IV groups of the periodic table of chemical elements. Take a look at the table of the Russian genius Mendeleev and in the III group, chemical elements in the nomination phosphorus and sulfur will flash before your eyes. So, three color shades (white, yellow, brown) are found, it remains to find an orange note to get a rich orange color.     Adepts of group "D" were very professional chemists. A mixture of sulfanol and sodium hexametaphosphate is one of the best decontaminating solutions for cotton products. Condensed polyphosphates are used to decontaminate cotton fabrics either in a slightly alkaline environment with soap, or in a neutral or slightly acidic environment with the addition of detergents.     From the school chemistry curriculum, we recall that the most famous acid-base indicator is methyl orange. Synthetic organic dye from the group of azo dyes in appearance is orange-yellow flakes. The author of these lines only needs to remind readers and Dyatlov scientists the last lines of the mnemonic rule: "And I rush into the water without looking back, here I am almost always orange." Everything ingenious is simple! The orange note that gave the decontaminant solution its orange-tangerine color was found in the methyl orange dye.     You will not believe it, but the senior forensic expert G.E. Churkina, during the forensic examination of the tourist tent, drew attention to the presence of dye in the fabric fibers of the tarpaulin and even made two scrapings from the threads of the fabric. However, in the act of examination N199 of April 16, 1959, this fact is not reflected, since the forensic prosecutor Ivanov did not raise the question of the chemical composition of the dye before Churkina. 
   
Scrapings of dye from the threads of a tourist tent (photo from the materials of the criminal case)
     There is no doubt that during the examination the dye was established, Churkina knew the results of the study. However, all her life she was silent, because she gave a receipt on non-disclosure of the secret of the investigation. And this bondage ticket is still languishing in the materials of another criminal case. In addition to the above, I note that the best "Dyatlov tracker" Maya Piskareva corresponded with the son of Henrietta Churkina, Igor Olegovich Makushkin, who, in the course of communication, recalled valuable information from a conversation with his mother. Here are fragments of Igor Makushkin's nostalgia: "On the fact of a change in color ... I remember that it was only about the skin of corpses. Mom said that the color of the skin was closer to orange ("orange") ...     R S . On June 25, 2019, "Komsomolskaya Pravda" in the article "Unraveling the mystery of the Dyatlov Pass in radiation examination" published an interview with a former colleague of the forensic prosecutor Ivanov, senior prosecutor of the investigative department of the prosecutor's office of the Pavlodar region - Lyudmila Vladimirovna Melnik.     Here is what Lyudmila Melnik (Ivanov's colleague) answered the question of Natalia Varsegova:     - What else did you find strange in this criminal case?     - For me, the biggest mystery was the radiation found on the clothes of the dead. Experts washed it for two weeks, but the indicators still went off scale! Here it is, the mystery. in this radiation. If you understand where it came from, you can explain the cuts on the tent, and the injuries ... 

Read the trilogy "The half-life of the Khibiny group" and you will understand where the radiation, cuts on the tent and injuries came from ...






« Last Edit: January 17, 2023, 08:15:21 AM by amashilu »
 

January 17, 2023, 08:11:51 AM
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Почемучка


Хотелось бы что Вы - предоставили все ссылки на апельсиновый цвет кожи погибших, которые имеются на данном ресурсе.
У Теодоры есть практически все воспоминания поисковиков тех смен, когда было обнаружение трупов. Есть свидетельства с похорон.
Давайте глянем на статистику. Начиная с того, как описал цвет кожи Б.А.Возрожденный.
И тогда посмотрим - как там с достоверностью у писателя Нагаева.

I would like that you - provided all the links to the orange color of the skin of the dead, which are available on this resource.
Theodora has almost all the memories of the searchers of those shifts when there was a discovery of corpses. There is evidence from the funeral.
Let's look at the statistics. Starting with how B.A. Vozrozhdenny described the color of the skin.
And then we'll see - how is the writer Nagaev with reliability.
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

January 17, 2023, 08:30:34 AM
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amashilu

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This thread is not about what other theorists say, but what Nagaev says: that the discoloration of the skin of the corpses was caused by an application of chromium peak sodium for the purpose of decontaminating the radiation.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2023, 08:36:13 AM by amashilu »
 
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January 17, 2023, 08:38:28 AM
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Почемучка


This thread is not about what other people say, but what Nagaev says: that the discoloration of the skin of the corpses was caused by an application of chromium peak sodium for the purpose of decontaminating the radiation.
То есть Вы имеете замысел говорить абстрактно? Отдельно Нагаев и его сочинение и отдельно то что есть по цвету кожи у свидетелей?
Но Нагаев не был поисковиком. Мало того - не хоронил никого из группы Дятлова.

Вы не могли бы мне понятно объяснить смысл абстрагирования? Ведь вопрос мой не праздный.  Я изучала тему оранжевого цвета - очень обстоятельно.

That is, you have an intention to speak abstractly? Separately, Nagaev and his essay, and separately, what is the color of the skin of the witnesses?
But Nagaev was not a search engine. Moreover, he did not bury anyone from the Dyatlov group.

Could you explain to me the meaning of abstraction clearly? After all, my question is not idle. I studied the topic of orange - very thoroughly.
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

January 17, 2023, 09:21:27 AM
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amashilu

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Teddy explains that "Vladimir Nagaev, a veteran of the KGB and the Federal Security Service of Russia, head of the faculty of the Military Medical Institute and candidate of Medical Sciences published a trilogy in 2018, that reveals the mechanism of death of the Dyatlov group - "The half-life of the Khibina group" (vol.1 vol.2 vol.3)."

Thus, he did not write an "essay," as you say, but a trilogy (3 volumes). Unfortunately for me, it is written in Russian. But his credentials are pretty impressive, so there is a chance he knew what he was talking about.

Can you show me where you see the word "abstraction"? Thank you.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2023, 09:51:19 AM by amashilu »
 

January 17, 2023, 09:24:05 AM
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Почемучка


Unfortunately for me, it is written in Russian. But his credentials are pretty impressive, so I think maybe he knew what he was talking about. Maybe.

Can you show me where you see the word "abstraction"? Thank you.
Когда дело упирается в материальную выгоды - репутация складывается в сундук. Про неё забывают.
И я Вам предлагала самой определить - насколько Нагаеву можно верить. Тема Перевала Дятлова - тема где все надо проверять.
Каждый в ней выбирает из имеющихся данных - только годное в его версию. Иногда просто не вбирая огромный блок свидетельств.
Насчет оранжевой кожи - блок данных один из самых мощных. И он начинается прямо с Актов СМИ Б.А.Возрожденного.
И тут Вы уже придете к пониманию - что Нагаев играет нечисто. Золотой телец убивает стремление иметь непререкаемую репутацию.
Возьмите девять актов СМИ и найдите там оранжевое.
Именно это я называю - абстрагированием в отрыве от имеющихся данных.

When it comes down to material gain - the reputation is added to the chest. They forget about her.
And I offered you to determine for yourself how much Nagaev can be trusted. The theme of the Dyatlov Pass is a topic where everything needs to be checked.
Everyone in it chooses from the available data - only suitable for his version. Sometimes simply not absorbing a huge block of evidence.
As for the orange skin - the data block is one of the most powerful. And it starts right with the Media Acts of B.A. Vozrozhdenny.

And then you will come to an understanding - that Nagaev plays dirty. The golden calf kills the desire to have an unquestioned reputation.
Take the nine media acts and find the orange one there.
This is what I call - abstraction in isolation from the available data.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2023, 09:32:31 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

January 17, 2023, 10:23:31 AM
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Ryan


Sorry, I was looking in the wrong forum, didn’t see you posted this here, and responded via a PM. And the forum software doesn’t have an outbox I can find so I don’t have a copy of what I sent you. Please feel free to quote what I sent here.
 

January 17, 2023, 10:40:35 AM
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amashilu

Global Moderator
Ryan responds:

Hi! I’m happy to comment on your question.

The Soviets would have developed chemical decontamination protocols. The Mayak Chelyabinsk Kyshtym accident had happened recently. I’m also aware of actions taken by the liquidators several decades later in Chernobyl that involved chemical washing.

I don’t know enough about the specific chemistry to say whether this orange substance described is real and is used for washing away radiation.

I *HIGHLY* doubt hikers could get their bodies so contaminated that chemical washing would be necessary. This kind of decontamination would be done for people in the same room as an exploding nuclear reactor. I can’t think of any plausible scenario that would account for it.

I also think that text greatly exaggerated things in the Levashov report. The idea that they washed things for weeks and the Geiger counter still went off the scale is untrue. Some fabric samples were washed for 3 hours under cold running rather, and radiation decreased 3-60%.

A lot of people get scared about radiation and a lot of what is written plays off those fears. All I have quantitative numbers for are the four hikers in the ravine. Those numbers are high enough that I really have to question how they got contaminated, but not high enough that they pose any health risk or danger to themselves or others. I certainly wouldn’t spread Dubinina’s brown sweater on a table and eat a sandwich off of it, but I also wouldn’t be afraid being in the same room as it.

Regards,
Ryan
 

January 17, 2023, 11:57:10 AM
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GlennM


You would think the medical examiner would have noted something.
 

January 17, 2023, 10:24:37 PM
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Почемучка


You would think the medical examiner would have noted something.
Кроме глаз Б.А.Возрожденного - было еще много глаз, которые видели трупы. Все воспоминания есть на ресурсе. Ни один из тех, кто видел трупы при обнаружении - не сообщает об оранжевом цвете кожи. Эта окраска в воспоминаниях тех, кто был на похоронах. И то - там оттенки сообщаются разные. Ближе к сильному загару. А это согласитесь - совсем не апельсин.

Я не требую верить мне на слово. Именно поэтому я предлагала автору темы - самой собрать в одну точку информацию по цвету кожи погибших туристов. Какой цвет, когда и где.

In addition to the eyes of B.A. Vozrozhdenny, there were many more eyes that saw corpses. All memories are on the resource. None of those, who saw the corpses upon discovery - does not report an orange skin color. This coloring is in the memories of those who were at the funeral. And that - there shades are communicated different. Closer to a strong tan. And this, you see, is not an orange at all.

I do not require you to take my word for it. That is why I suggested to the author of the topic - to collect information on the skin color of dead tourists at one point. What color, when and where.
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...