Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: GlennM on February 09, 2019, 01:04:14 PM
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I submit there is no compelling evidence that a ground based threat would compel 9 intelligent people to cut and ruin a tent, escaping into a very likely death sentence before reconsidering, and turning around. Only the spectre of immediate obliteration would make abandoning the tent the right action to take. I do believe an aerial threat would. Suppose a squadron if Soviet fighters practicing night training at low altitude produced a deafening roar right over the tent. The hikers knowing they themselves were off course would not think twice about clearing the area. If the Jets also dropped flares as training munitions, the bright light and noise would panic them. No time to dress, time to go! Ear shattering noise, bright tent piercing light of flares and the real possibility of certain destruction made them leave without hesitation.
after passing the point of no return, but still without the cover of trees and in a calmer state if mind, they reason that making a fire in the woods will serve two ends, one is warmth, the other a light in the dark. It would be too cold to return unless they could warm up first. Everything is numbing up.Some may have tripped and got hurt on the way down.
Realizing that the Jets are gone, not to return, a decision is made to form teams. Three go back to the tent and get supplies. The rest to make shelter and wait.
The returning hikers can't make the trip, and sleep as they shut down, falling along the way.
Two die by the fire from injury and exposure coming down the hill or at the tree. The others take clothes and seek deeper snow to dig in. They want a snow cave for the night. They fall into the ravine and succumb.
The Cold War Soviets would not reveal where they fly to train or test ground detection technology. That invites spying. They have no obligation to associate training activity with the hikers. This invites spying. By comparison, stealth aircraft at Area 51 are flown at night to further remote areas for flight tests. Too many observers around if testing is done too close to home.
I think it will ultimately be revealed that the hikers were unwitting victims of the Cold War. They will eventually be honored as heros of the State. That will close the investigation.
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I submit there is no compelling evidence that a ground based threat would compel 9 intelligent people to cut and ruin a tent, escaping into a very likely death sentence before reconsidering, and turning around. Only the spectre of immediate obliteration would make abandoning the tent the right action to take. I do believe an aerial threat would. Suppose a squadron if Soviet fighters practicing night training at low altitude produced a deafening roar right over the tent. The hikers knowing they themselves were off course would not think twice about clearing the area. If the Jets also dropped flares as training munitions, the bright light and noise would panic them. No time to dress, time to go! Ear shattering noise, bright tent piercing light of flares and the real possibility of certain destruction made them leave without hesitation.
after passing the point of no return, but still without the cover of trees and in a calmer state if mind, they reason that making a fire in the woods will serve two ends, one is warmth, the other a light in the dark. It would be too cold to return unless they could warm up first. Everything is numbing up.Some may have tripped and got hurt on the way down.
Realizing that the Jets are gone, not to return, a decision is made to form teams. Three go back to the tent and get supplies. The rest to make shelter and wait.
The returning hikers can't make the trip, and sleep as they shut down, falling along the way.
Two die by the fire from injury and exposure coming down the hill or at the tree. The others take clothes and seek deeper snow to dig in. They want a snow cave for the night. They fall into the ravine and succumb.
The Cold War Soviets would not reveal where they fly to train or test ground detection technology. That invites spying. They have no obligation to associate training activity with the hikers. This invites spying. By comparison, stealth aircraft at Area 51 are flown at night to further remote areas for flight tests. Too many observers around if testing is done too close to home.
I think it will ultimately be revealed that the hikers were unwitting victims of the Cold War. They will eventually be honored as heros of the State. That will close the investigation.
Thats fair enough that you suggest it could be an aerial threat that caused the Dyatlov Group to leave the Tent, but what about the various actions after leaving the Tent and the various very serious injuries ! ? How does DUBININA end up with those extraordinary injuries. Etc.
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The returning hikers can't make the trip, and sleep as they shut down, falling along the way.
I don't get that. Either they were too weak to make the trip because they waited long enough for hypothermia to set in, or they should have been able to make it back to the tent. If they waited a couple hours, then it makes no sense to go back uphill exposed to the wind in a weakened state.
Otherwise, I agree that they could have been scared out of their tent by a military exercise. I wonder if the higher ups knew or found out about that, and the decision was to cover it up by forcing the criminal part of the investigation to stop.
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Hello and thanks for the post.
Any of the deceased will decompose according to the environmental conditions where they died. To me, that is a distraction and peripheral to the central issue. I think the injuries are consistent with falling. Where and when are also peripheral considerations. Secondly, it seems reasonable that once the hikers resolved to travel all the way to the edge of the forest, they would all be in need of heat. The reason for not returning to camp after departure was , I believe for a warm fire and to be certain the aerial threat was over. Who is to say if those jets were going to test bombs or bomb sights? I believe that the eventual decision to have a team try to get back to the tent was a heroism since the team leader was in that group. It might have taken 30 minutes to get down hill,but going uphill is something else altogether. I imagine the time doubled. I also believe there was no other choice than to try to return. The idea would be for three to get back to camp, load food clothes and ski down to rapidly bring relief to those at the tree or digging a snow cave. I think the return party was as determined as anyone with a death sentence on them can be. No one stopped and none turned back. Finally, going back to original motivations, I believe the Russians hikers knew that if they got killed by an airstrike or a vibration induced snowslide, the military would suppress involvement for State security. Therefore, their best strategy was to get out of harm's way and hope for the best. It the dilemma of choosing the devil or the deep as they say. A cold night in the Cold War.
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Welp, we have reason to suspect they never 'cut' their way out of the tent to begin with. Also, there were other student groups in the area from the same school that undoubtedly would have heard and reported hearing fighter jets or similar. I know all to well the sound you speak of and it travels for many miles.
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I don't think low flying aircraft on military exercise is enough to cause them to panic and flee without their shoes. Even if they were worried the py would have at lest collected some important life saving gear and put their shoes on.
What caused them to leave was compelling and happened quickly. It caused immediate distress, or they fled from someone/something.
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Hello,
I find it important to consider the tent was opened on the down hill side. I find it curious that matches or Flint was brought along to start a fire. I doubt anyone could rub sticks after the exposure to cold. I find it curious that if knives (weapons?) were used to cut the tent, knives were unreported with corpses. I think it is a distraction to the central idea. Knives were handy, shoes were not.They cut themselves out of the tent in a desparate bid to live.. I believe that if a jet flys by 200 feet from you, the reaction is different than if the jet is 2 miles from you. From inside a tent you don't know if it is passing or crashing, it is loud, close and a threat. Nothing on the ground would provoke the threat response to leave shelter and eventually try to return. A perceived air strike or jet exhaust ground shock precipitating a snow slide would. Of course it is easy to say that Soviet intelligence quashed testimony from other hikers, I think if any group was buzzed by a MIG, they would bug out too if they were on a bare hillside in the Cold War.
I too find it difficult to understand how anyone would destroy shelter and leave without shoes.You have to find them, put them on in the dark and get bundled up. No time! The only plausible answer is immediate threat of death. Nothing on the ground would provoke that response. The hikers made a snap decision out of fear of certain destruction. Being shot covered in a snow slide or bombed is sufficient motivation. They head to the trees and wait it out. The rest unfolds as it did in the reports.
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I find it very unlikely that the threat was indeed a fighter jet. At that time, these were not at all used or equiped for ground attacks and there is no point to fly those at low altitude in the mountains. Apart from that, it would be too loud and too visible in much bigger area.
Nevertheless, it is still possible that military or intelligence were involved in the events that led to deaths of the tourists. As I wrote already in other thread, it is possible that they were using some kind of home-made radio equipment (there are references such as "Sasha Kolevatov tested his device, then quit" or "tins and wires" inside the tent) and at least two of the group must have been familiar with radio technology.
There is a possiblity that they broadcasted something that was intercepted by the secret service or they overheard some sensitive communication. It cannot be proved or disproved until the origin and function of "the device" and "tins and wires" found in the tent is clarified.
If the military was present, they would most likely used helicopters and it would be a rational decision to hide from them in the woods. Also, it would explain the absence of other footprints...but there is still a lot to explain.
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Hello,
I find it important to consider the tent was opened on the down hill side. I find it curious that matches or Flint was brought along to start a fire. I doubt anyone could rub sticks after the exposure to cold. I find it curious that if knives (weapons?) were used to cut the tent, knives were unreported with corpses. I think it is a distraction to the central idea. Knives were handy, shoes were not.They cut themselves out of the tent in a desparate bid to live.. I believe that if a jet flys by 200 feet from you, the reaction is different than if the jet is 2 miles from you. From inside a tent you don't know if it is passing or crashing, it is loud, close and a threat. Nothing on the ground would provoke the threat response to leave shelter and eventually try to return. A perceived air strike or jet exhaust ground shock precipitating a snow slide would. Of course it is easy to say that Soviet intelligence quashed testimony from other hikers, I think if any group was buzzed by a MIG, they would bug out too if they were on a bare hillside in the Cold War.
I too find it difficult to understand how anyone would destroy shelter and leave without shoes.You have to find them, put them on in the dark and get bundled up. No time! The only plausible answer is immediate threat of death. Nothing on the ground would provoke that response. The hikers made a snap decision out of fear of certain destruction. Being shot covered in a snow slide or bombed is sufficient motivation. They head to the trees and wait it out. The rest unfolds as it did in the reports.
They had.... matches.
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Interesting view.
Jet fighers at low altitude at night in 59 in mountains , i do not take that either .
But the reason to leave the tnet without shoes for trained hikers ?
Either all the "evidence " is a fake , they had been taken by surprise, out of the end brutally , ans maybe they had fought back - wounds could confirm for some - and force to walk .
Clearly in this case ot would have been an organised action, goal, purpose,reason
Or all the "facts" are true and the level of coïncidence is very high : frighten at night ( by what) , falling from trees, hiding in the wrong place , missing the way back ..
a solid groupe with technical habilites , good hikers in a hard time ?
One more question : did they take the wrong way or the way the were supposed to ?
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But the reason to leave the tnet without shoes for trained hikers ?
Either all the "evidence " is a fake , they had been taken by surprise, out of the end brutally , ans maybe they had fought back - wounds could confirm for some - and force to walk .
On the balance of probability, somebody had a very good leverage on them. There is no way anybody would do that voluntarily. I would not do that unless a person with let's say AK47 and serious attitude told me to...
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That is th point i was talking about .
BUT in this case all the "evidence" is build :
- tracks of the agressors
-the tent
-the place of the bodies
and so on
and no serious construction has to be made with it
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The problem is, even if we explain leaving the tent by forced action (held at gunpoint or somebody taken hostage to control others) there are other questions that emerge.
- tracks of the agressors - if the agressors were indeed soviet military, they would be careful enough not to leave traces (could have arrived by helicopter for example and never leave the tent area, which was flattened before, on foot)
- the tent - inconclusive evidence, could have been cut by anybody either from inside or outside, we have no way to know if something was taken from the inside
- the place of the bodies - inconclusive, we have no idea if they were moved or somehow manipulated with (to take clothes for example)
Anyway, leaving somebody to die from freezing in russian winter is a good way to cover up foul play, but then the question stands why was not everybody killed by hypothermia and why were Thibeaux and Semyon dressed better than the others...
If we would assume there was nobody else present, again, on the balance of probability, if we rule out people ony by one, Semyon and Thibaux would be the ones to suspect. Or they were just somewhere else when all went wrong.
The lack of evidence leaves too much room for speculation, I can myself come up with other theories that are consistent with the KNOWN evidence but they are far-fetched at best...
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Very enjoyable forum, intelligent and civil discourse.
I think that only a jet provides the necessary motivation. For any other alternatives, there would be time to negotiate or stand and fight. Further, if the hikers were force marched off site, it does not stand to reason they would be allowed to have a fire or attempt a return. The aggressors surely would not allow boots to remain at camp. A radio transmission is interesting, as is the possibility of a ground assault. I do not know if radio transmitters were outlawed, nor do I know their weight and range. Least of all I don't know who they would contact. Since the group were to return to civilization and since the hike was done for points or credit, it becomes very complex, yes?
A low level night training mission fills the requirement for suddenness, threat of great harm, and immediacy for escape.
The fleeing hikers would have to repeat to themselves,"let's get out of here" over and over, or one would say" stop, let's go back, this is crazy!"
I enjoy the dialogue and critical thinking in the forum. Now that Russia is back in the investigation, won't it be exciting to know the truth?
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The problem is, even if we explain leaving the tent by forced action (held at gunpoint or somebody taken hostage to control others) there are other questions that emerge.
- tracks of the agressors - if the agressors were indeed soviet military, they would be careful enough not to leave traces (could have arrived by helicopter for example and never leave the tent area, which was flattened before, on foot)
- the tent - inconclusive evidence, could have been cut by anybody either from inside or outside, we have no way to know if something was taken from the inside
- the place of the bodies - inconclusive, we have no idea if they were moved or somehow manipulated with (to take clothes for example)
Anyway, leaving somebody to die from freezing in russian winter is a good way to cover up foul play, but then the question stands why was not everybody killed by hypothermia and why were Thibeaux and Semyon dressed better than the others...
If we would assume there was nobody else present, again, on the balance of probability, if we rule out people ony by one, Semyon and Thibaux would be the ones to suspect. Or they were just somewhere else when all went wrong.
The lack of evidence leaves too much room for speculation, I can myself come up with other theories that are consistent with the KNOWN evidence but they are far-fetched at best...
I agree. I also think that if the Soviet military or KGB wanted to kill them and make it look like an accident, they would have just cleaned up and burned all the bodies and their belongings at a special facility. Tourists disappear in the mountains all the time and although there's the occasional "alien abduction" theory from that, it doesn't generate anything near the level of curiosity that the Dyatlov pass does. The Soviets were good at cover ups - the mess at Dyatlov pass just doesn't seem to fit that.
The "accidental collateral damage by arms testing" theory makes a bit more sense, but there's also evidence to contradict it - for instance, a parachute bomb could explain the injuries of the Ravine Four but an explosion of that magnitude would surely leave other marks of impact at the scene that just aren't there.
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I do not know if radio transmitters were outlawed, nor do I know their weight and range. Least of all I don't know who they would contact.
There is an interesting document about radio-amateurism in USSR. At pages 13-14 it clearly states is was basically not possible to own a personal radio transmitter/receiver until 1956 when the Communinst Party Congress allowed it. And also is talks about a "boom" of personal radio tranceivers since 1958. However, there were restrictions of frequency use (aparent reasons - military and KGB) and these home-made radios were very often built and used by people with technical education or jobs - just like Zina and Doroshenko. Zolotaryov must have been familiar with the technology too, as he was a former soldier. Very intresting reading.
It would hint at the possibility the group intercepted sensitive communication or their communication was intercepted by the military (pilots?). But we only have references to "Kolevatov's device" and "tins and wires" to support that. Zina's reference to "Kolevatov's device" would hint at there was another one. Maybe they just tried to test some home-made equipment to communicate between themselves and the group was actually split when the bad things started. I have no way to prove that until such a device is reported to be found in the area. Even if it was, it would have been confiscated by authorities.
full text here: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/651559.pdf
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I think that only a jet provides the necessary motivation. For any other alternatives, there would be time to negotiate or stand and fight.
I actually find the ground attack by jets unlikely as it was not their purpose at that time. Modern aircraft of that era such as MiG-21 or SU-7 were designed as interceptors with no ground-attack capability. Also, they were too fast to allow anybody a time for reaction, as were bomber aircraft of that time. They were designed to attack from higher altitude so it is unlikely that the group heard the incoming aircraft and fled the tent and slope into the woods. The most plausible way to anticipate the air strike would be dropping of flares to mark the target. That would be a good reason to leave and would allow for reaction time. They would know that flares mean incoming air strike as at least Zolotaryov was in the army before. The military training of such type would make sense as the bombing at that time was far from accurate. There might have been no bombs dropped after all or they missed the "target" by a long margin, hence no evidence of explosion in the area.
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Is there not a badly out of focus photo that could be a descending flare? It's hard to imagine someone grabbing the camera instead of boots, but...
The thing about the Jets is you may not hear them approach but they make a huge noise once you are behind one. I don't think a low pass is consistent with dropping flares. Therefore if flares were dropped from altitude and the hikers felt a bomb run was to follow, the response would be the same, namely to bug out. I think they were in the wrong place at the right time. They ran for their lives, waited as long as they could, tried to stay warm and make a shelter, returned to camp but could not survive an uphill climb equipped as they were.
When I think about the radio, if it were me and I had a working radio, I'd send a message, then bug out.
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Hello and thanks for the post.
Any of the deceased will decompose according to the environmental conditions where they died. To me, that is a distraction and peripheral to the central issue. I think the injuries are consistent with falling. Where and when are also peripheral considerations. Secondly, it seems reasonable that once the hikers resolved to travel all the way to the edge of the forest, they would all be in need of heat. The reason for not returning to camp after departure was , I believe for a warm fire and to be certain the aerial threat was over. Who is to say if those jets were going to test bombs or bomb sights? I believe that the eventual decision to have a team try to get back to the tent was a heroism since the team leader was in that group. It might have taken 30 minutes to get down hill,but going uphill is something else altogether. I imagine the time doubled. I also believe there was no other choice than to try to return. The idea would be for three to get back to camp, load food clothes and ski down to rapidly bring relief to those at the tree or digging a snow cave. I think the return party was as determined as anyone with a death sentence on them can be. No one stopped and none turned back. Finally, going back to original motivations, I believe the Russians hikers knew that if they got killed by an airstrike or a vibration induced snowslide, the military would suppress involvement for State security. Therefore, their best strategy was to get out of harm's way and hope for the best. It the dilemma of choosing the devil or the deep as they say. A cold night in the Cold War.
Do you seriously believe that the Dyatlov Group just wandered into a Military Range of some kind ! ? Do you think the USSR Authorities were idiots. The Dyatlov Group was cleared to go on that expedition. They would not have been CLEARED to go on that expedition if there was any kind of danger that you are concocting.
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Hello and thanks for the post.
Any of the deceased will decompose according to the environmental conditions where they died. To me, that is a distraction and peripheral to the central issue. I think the injuries are consistent with falling. Where and when are also peripheral considerations. Secondly, it seems reasonable that once the hikers resolved to travel all the way to the edge of the forest, they would all be in need of heat. The reason for not returning to camp after departure was , I believe for a warm fire and to be certain the aerial threat was over. Who is to say if those jets were going to test bombs or bomb sights? I believe that the eventual decision to have a team try to get back to the tent was a heroism since the team leader was in that group. It might have taken 30 minutes to get down hill,but going uphill is something else altogether. I imagine the time doubled. I also believe there was no other choice than to try to return. The idea would be for three to get back to camp, load food clothes and ski down to rapidly bring relief to those at the tree or digging a snow cave. I think the return party was as determined as anyone with a death sentence on them can be. No one stopped and none turned back. Finally, going back to original motivations, I believe the Russians hikers knew that if they got killed by an airstrike or a vibration induced snowslide, the military would suppress involvement for State security. Therefore, their best strategy was to get out of harm's way and hope for the best. It the dilemma of choosing the devil or the deep as they say. A cold night in the Cold War.
Do you seriously believe that the Dyatlov Group just wandered into a Military Range of some kind ! ? Do you think the USSR Authorities were idiots. The Dyatlov Group was cleared to go on that expedition. They would not have been CLEARED to go on that expedition if there was any kind of danger that you are concocting.
But do you think that the authorities in charge of approving the Dyatlov group route also had access to all the military secrets for developing and testing weapons?
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Hello and thanks for the post.
Any of the deceased will decompose according to the environmental conditions where they died. To me, that is a distraction and peripheral to the central issue. I think the injuries are consistent with falling. Where and when are also peripheral considerations. Secondly, it seems reasonable that once the hikers resolved to travel all the way to the edge of the forest, they would all be in need of heat. The reason for not returning to camp after departure was , I believe for a warm fire and to be certain the aerial threat was over. Who is to say if those jets were going to test bombs or bomb sights? I believe that the eventual decision to have a team try to get back to the tent was a heroism since the team leader was in that group. It might have taken 30 minutes to get down hill,but going uphill is something else altogether. I imagine the time doubled. I also believe there was no other choice than to try to return. The idea would be for three to get back to camp, load food clothes and ski down to rapidly bring relief to those at the tree or digging a snow cave. I think the return party was as determined as anyone with a death sentence on them can be. No one stopped and none turned back. Finally, going back to original motivations, I believe the Russians hikers knew that if they got killed by an airstrike or a vibration induced snowslide, the military would suppress involvement for State security. Therefore, their best strategy was to get out of harm's way and hope for the best. It the dilemma of choosing the devil or the deep as they say. A cold night in the Cold War.
Do you seriously believe that the Dyatlov Group just wandered into a Military Range of some kind ! ? Do you think the USSR Authorities were idiots. The Dyatlov Group was cleared to go on that expedition. They would not have been CLEARED to go on that expedition if there was any kind of danger that you are concocting.
But do you think that the authorities in charge of approving the Dyatlov group route also had access to all the military secrets for developing and testing weapons?
The USSR was not the top secret out of bounds prison camp that many people in the West are led to believe.
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Hello,
I don't believe the hikers were permitted to go to a bombing range. I do believe that if the Soviet armed forces wished to train flyers in a barren low mountainous area they would do it. I believe that the shock produced by a flight of low Jets and the uncertainty of their intention would be motivation enough for the hikers to seek relative safety in the trees. They can not wave the Jets off, only vacate the area. Given the distance from camp to trees, the threat of destruction was real. Too, if human error got the hikers off track and put them on the side of a barren hill for the night, could a small navigational error out a Soviet MIG on the wrong side of a mountain top? This tragedy would not have happened if the hikers camped in the trees. Trees were safety. Please keep the discussion going. I value your thoughts.
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Hello,
I don't believe the hikers were permitted to go to a bombing range. I do believe that if the Soviet armed forces wished to train flyers in a barren low mountainous area they would do it. I believe that the shock produced by a flight of low Jets and the uncertainty of their intention would be motivation enough for the hikers to seek relative safety in the trees. They can not wave the Jets off, only vacate the area. Given the distance from camp to trees, the threat of destruction was real. Too, if human error got the hikers off track and put them on the side of a barren hill for the night, could a small navigational error out a Soviet MIG on the wrong side of a mountain top? This tragedy would not have happened if the hikers camped in the trees. Trees were safety. Please keep the discussion going. I value your thoughts.
Good enough point. I remember when I used to go fishing in England near the Welsh Borders and often would be surprised at the appearance and sound of a LOW FLYING FIGHTER JET of the RAF. Sometimes we would stop fishing and watch the aerial antics. Never once was I concerned though. I think it would have had to have been something other than a low flying plane to cause the Dyatlov Group to abandon their safety refuge.
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Hello,
I don't believe the hikers were permitted to go to a bombing range. I do believe that if the Soviet armed forces wished to train flyers in a barren low mountainous area they would do it. I believe that the shock produced by a flight of low Jets and the uncertainty of their intention would be motivation enough for the hikers to seek relative safety in the trees. They can not wave the Jets off, only vacate the area. Given the distance from camp to trees, the threat of destruction was real. Too, if human error got the hikers off track and put them on the side of a barren hill for the night, could a small navigational error out a Soviet MIG on the wrong side of a mountain top? This tragedy would not have happened if the hikers camped in the trees. Trees were safety. Please keep the discussion going. I value your thoughts.
Good enough point. I remember when I used to go fishing in England near the Welsh Borders and often would be surprised at the appearance and sound of a LOW FLYING FIGHTER JET of the RAF. Sometimes we would stop fishing and watch the aerial antics. Never once was I concerned though. I think it would have had to have been something other than a low flying plane to cause the Dyatlov Group to abandon their safety refuge.
Agreed. I have often been buzzed by very low flying aircraft and although it can startle you it doesn’t lead to panic. Unless of course they had already started to drop ordinance.
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Hi and thanks for the criticsl thought. I too have been buzzed by a jet and it did not completly unhinge me either. However, I wasn't on a snowy hillside, and the jet passed once and was gone. If the photo of the glowing orb was a flare, this might suggest an intention to return for practice putposes. Vietnam was heating up and Russia supplied the North with aircraft.
The hikers left quickly because they could not talk their way out of an iminant threat of destruction. What else would make a group of sane college educated experienced trekkers say as a group, "We have to go...now!"? Bombardment, snowslide, uncertainty of others intentions is compelling to me. Looked at from another perspective. why would it be foolish to remain in camp and wait it out? Answer, we can't be seen and maybe we are in the wrong place.
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Hi and thanks for the criticsl thought. I too have been buzzed by a jet and it did not completly unhinge me either. However, I wasn't on a snowy hillside, and the jet passed once and was gone. If the photo of the glowing orb was a flare, this might suggest an intention to return for practice putposes. Vietnam was heating up and Russia supplied the North with aircraft.
The hikers left quickly because they could not talk their way out of an iminant threat of destruction. What else would make a group of sane college educated experienced trekkers say as a group, "We have to go...now!"? Bombardment, snowslide, uncertainty of others intentions is compelling to me. Looked at from another perspective. why would it be foolish to remain in camp and wait it out? Answer, we can't be seen and maybe we are in the wrong place.
There seems to be lots of possible reasons. E.g
Forced out
Infrasound
Bomb
Poisonous gas
Etc
The more you look at the details the more you uncover
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Hi and thanks for the criticsl thought. I too have been buzzed by a jet and it did not completly unhinge me either. However, I wasn't on a snowy hillside, and the jet passed once and was gone. If the photo of the glowing orb was a flare, this might suggest an intention to return for practice putposes. Vietnam was heating up and Russia supplied the North with aircraft.
The hikers left quickly because they could not talk their way out of an iminant threat of destruction. What else would make a group of sane college educated experienced trekkers say as a group, "We have to go...now!"? Bombardment, snowslide, uncertainty of others intentions is compelling to me. Looked at from another perspective. why would it be foolish to remain in camp and wait it out? Answer, we can't be seen and maybe we are in the wrong place.
There seems to be lots of possible reasons. E.g
Forced out
Infrasound
Bomb
Poisonous gas
Etc
The more you look at the details the more you uncover
As for the flares (which were commonly used to mark air strike targets or landing sites for paratroopers during WWII), it depends on the specific setup and people. That means I would not be scared as I have always lived near the airport I never experienced war as such. On the other hand, it is fully understandable if a dropped flare causes panic to people with experience in war zone (just like Semyon) or anybody familiar with bomb testing procedure (Kolevatov). War trauma can trigger much worse and violent reactions when "experienced" again, let alone the attempt to flee and find shelter wherever possible.
As for the time frame, 1959 is exactly in the middle of a process of introduction of MiG21 aircraft and Vympel R13 Air to Air self navigated missile (copycat of US-made Sidewinder, indroduced in 1956, Soviet version in 1961). The flares are ofter used as a countermeasure and would be used during a training (probably with disarmed missiles) because they lure away the infrared sensors of a missile from a target aircraft. Could hva ebeen dropped somewhere by accident.
I would label this theory "plausible". Above mentioned definitely happened somewhere in the USSR in 1959 and around that time. We cannout prove it happened at EXCACT time or place without supporting documentation.
Forced out - plausible, by whom? (no outside party - Semyon or Thibaux are my favourite suspects because of the clothes and shoes they were wearing unlike the rest of the group, outside party - miltary/paratroopers?) motive?
Infrasound - seems inconsistent with the evidence and unlikely to trigger the death of 9 people...but might be interesting to study further
Bomb - no traces of that in the area, bomb threat (real or not) still plausible, with or without flares, but Ivanov mentioned lights in the sky and burned tree tops that would support use of flares, maybe and aerial explosion? night bombing training?
Poisonous gas - plausible, source unknown - chemical weapons or natural source? would be interesting what kind of substances could have been used in 1959 and how would they affect the victims
-
Hi and thanks for the criticsl thought. I too have been buzzed by a jet and it did not completly unhinge me either. However, I wasn't on a snowy hillside, and the jet passed once and was gone. If the photo of the glowing orb was a flare, this might suggest an intention to return for practice putposes. Vietnam was heating up and Russia supplied the North with aircraft.
The hikers left quickly because they could not talk their way out of an iminant threat of destruction. What else would make a group of sane college educated experienced trekkers say as a group, "We have to go...now!"? Bombardment, snowslide, uncertainty of others intentions is compelling to me. Looked at from another perspective. why would it be foolish to remain in camp and wait it out? Answer, we can't be seen and maybe we are in the wrong place.
There seems to be lots of possible reasons. E.g
Forced out
Infrasound
Bomb
Poisonous gas
Etc
The more you look at the details the more you uncover
As for the flares (which were commonly used to mark air strike targets or landing sites for paratroopers during WWII), it depends on the specific setup and people. That means I would not be scared as I have always lived near the airport I never experienced war as such. On the other hand, it is fully understandable if a dropped flare causes panic to people with experience in war zone (just like Semyon) or anybody familiar with bomb testing procedure (Kolevatov). War trauma can trigger much worse and violent reactions when "experienced" again, let alone the attempt to flee and find shelter wherever possible.
As for the time frame, 1959 is exactly in the middle of a process of introduction of MiG21 aircraft and Vympel R13 Air to Air self navigated missile (copycat of US-made Sidewinder, indroduced in 1956, Soviet version in 1961). The flares are ofter used as a countermeasure and would be used during a training (probably with disarmed missiles) because they lure away the infrared sensors of a missile from a target aircraft. Could hva ebeen dropped somewhere by accident.
I would label this theory "plausible". Above mentioned definitely happened somewhere in the USSR in 1959 and around that time. We cannout prove it happened at EXCACT time or place without supporting documentation.
Forced out - plausible, by whom? (no outside party - Semyon or Thibaux are my favourite suspects because of the clothes and shoes they were wearing unlike the rest of the group, outside party - miltary/paratroopers?) motive?
Infrasound - seems inconsistent with the evidence and unlikely to trigger the death of 9 people...but might be interesting to study further
Bomb - no traces of that in the area, bomb threat (real or not) still plausible, with or without flares, but Ivanov mentioned lights in the sky and burned tree tops that would support use of flares, maybe and aerial explosion? night bombing training?
Poisonous gas - plausible, source unknown - chemical weapons or natural source? would be interesting what kind of substances could have been used in 1959 and how would they affect the victims
One of the key things to consider in the DPI is that of the 5 people who supposedly died of hypothermia, only Dyatlov autopsy report is consistent with this hypothermia. Also look at case files and the clothing.
Semyon & Thibo in fighting of some kind. It's possible, I have considered this but so struggle to construct a credible hypothesis
Infrasound - it would only take one or two influential group members to panic to cause the rest to take flight too if they believed there was a threat. Again I have struggled so far to make a credible hypothesis.
Bomb - yes I have been able to construct a credible hypothesis for a low yield nuclear weapon test. See military section of forum.
Poisonous gas - yes. Seems to be a good fit. Also see low yield nuke. Also there are several other ideas on NO2 poisoning.
Regards
Star man
-
Hello,
I don't believe the hikers were permitted to go to a bombing range. I do believe that if the Soviet armed forces wished to train flyers in a barren low mountainous area they would do it. I believe that the shock produced by a flight of low Jets and the uncertainty of their intention would be motivation enough for the hikers to seek relative safety in the trees. They can not wave the Jets off, only vacate the area. Given the distance from camp to trees, the threat of destruction was real. Too, if human error got the hikers off track and put them on the side of a barren hill for the night, could a small navigational error out a Soviet MIG on the wrong side of a mountain top? This tragedy would not have happened if the hikers camped in the trees. Trees were safety. Please keep the discussion going. I value your thoughts.
Good enough point. I remember when I used to go fishing in England near the Welsh Borders and often would be surprised at the appearance and sound of a LOW FLYING FIGHTER JET of the RAF. Sometimes we would stop fishing and watch the aerial antics. Never once was I concerned though. I think it would have had to have been something other than a low flying plane to cause the Dyatlov Group to abandon their safety refuge.
Agreed. I have often been buzzed by very low flying aircraft and although it can startle you it doesn’t lead to panic. Unless of course they had already started to drop ordinance.
No evidence of ordinance being dropped was found by the search parties.
-
Hi and thanks for the criticsl thought. I too have been buzzed by a jet and it did not completly unhinge me either. However, I wasn't on a snowy hillside, and the jet passed once and was gone. If the photo of the glowing orb was a flare, this might suggest an intention to return for practice putposes. Vietnam was heating up and Russia supplied the North with aircraft.
The hikers left quickly because they could not talk their way out of an iminant threat of destruction. What else would make a group of sane college educated experienced trekkers say as a group, "We have to go...now!"? Bombardment, snowslide, uncertainty of others intentions is compelling to me. Looked at from another perspective. why would it be foolish to remain in camp and wait it out? Answer, we can't be seen and maybe we are in the wrong place.
So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs ! ? And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS ! ?
-
Hi and thanks for the criticsl thought. I too have been buzzed by a jet and it did not completly unhinge me either. However, I wasn't on a snowy hillside, and the jet passed once and was gone. If the photo of the glowing orb was a flare, this might suggest an intention to return for practice putposes. Vietnam was heating up and Russia supplied the North with aircraft.
The hikers left quickly because they could not talk their way out of an iminant threat of destruction. What else would make a group of sane college educated experienced trekkers say as a group, "We have to go...now!"? Bombardment, snowslide, uncertainty of others intentions is compelling to me. Looked at from another perspective. why would it be foolish to remain in camp and wait it out? Answer, we can't be seen and maybe we are in the wrong place.
There seems to be lots of possible reasons. E.g
Forced out
Infrasound
Bomb
Poisonous gas
Etc
The more you look at the details the more you uncover
As for the flares (which were commonly used to mark air strike targets or landing sites for paratroopers during WWII), it depends on the specific setup and people. That means I would not be scared as I have always lived near the airport I never experienced war as such. On the other hand, it is fully understandable if a dropped flare causes panic to people with experience in war zone (just like Semyon) or anybody familiar with bomb testing procedure (Kolevatov). War trauma can trigger much worse and violent reactions when "experienced" again, let alone the attempt to flee and find shelter wherever possible.
As for the time frame, 1959 is exactly in the middle of a process of introduction of MiG21 aircraft and Vympel R13 Air to Air self navigated missile (copycat of US-made Sidewinder, indroduced in 1956, Soviet version in 1961). The flares are ofter used as a countermeasure and would be used during a training (probably with disarmed missiles) because they lure away the infrared sensors of a missile from a target aircraft. Could hva ebeen dropped somewhere by accident.
I would label this theory "plausible". Above mentioned definitely happened somewhere in the USSR in 1959 and around that time. We cannout prove it happened at EXCACT time or place without supporting documentation.
Forced out - plausible, by whom? (no outside party - Semyon or Thibaux are my favourite suspects because of the clothes and shoes they were wearing unlike the rest of the group, outside party - miltary/paratroopers?) motive?
Infrasound - seems inconsistent with the evidence and unlikely to trigger the death of 9 people...but might be interesting to study further
Bomb - no traces of that in the area, bomb threat (real or not) still plausible, with or without flares, but Ivanov mentioned lights in the sky and burned tree tops that would support use of flares, maybe and aerial explosion? night bombing training?
Poisonous gas - plausible, source unknown - chemical weapons or natural source? would be interesting what kind of substances could have been used in 1959 and how would they affect the victims
The Post is about THE SOVIET MILITARY. And its one of the least plausible theories that the Military were involved.
-
So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs ! ? And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS ! ?
Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...
Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).
-
Hello,
I don't believe the hikers were permitted to go to a bombing range. I do believe that if the Soviet armed forces wished to train flyers in a barren low mountainous area they would do it. I believe that the shock produced by a flight of low Jets and the uncertainty of their intention would be motivation enough for the hikers to seek relative safety in the trees. They can not wave the Jets off, only vacate the area. Given the distance from camp to trees, the threat of destruction was real. Too, if human error got the hikers off track and put them on the side of a barren hill for the night, could a small navigational error out a Soviet MIG on the wrong side of a mountain top? This tragedy would not have happened if the hikers camped in the trees. Trees were safety. Please keep the discussion going. I value your thoughts.
Good enough point. I remember when I used to go fishing in England near the Welsh Borders and often would be surprised at the appearance and sound of a LOW FLYING FIGHTER JET of the RAF. Sometimes we would stop fishing and watch the aerial antics. Never once was I concerned though. I think it would have had to have been something other than a low flying plane to cause the Dyatlov Group to abandon their safety refuge.
Agreed. I have often been buzzed by very low flying aircraft and although it can startle you it doesn’t lead to panic. Unless of course they had already started to drop ordinance.
No evidence of ordinance being dropped was found by the search parties.
I don't think they were looking very hard TBH.
-
So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs ! ? And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS ! ?
Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...
Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).
You are right. There is no way that the authorities had the level of control required to ensure that every department and organisation knew everything that was going on in all the other departments. Especially when it came to testing new technologies. We can't even achieve that level of control today with all of our advances in IT.
-
Hi again,
Personally, I think that the jet(s) would not have to fire a shot. All that is necessary is to induce a ground vibration so strong that the possibility of avalanche seems iminant. It would be foolish for the party to stay in the tent and wait and see what will happen next. It would be just as pointless for one person to poke their head out of the tent and look around. The only thing that matters is that they all came to the singular conclusion that staying in the tent was not worth dying for. Even taking time to put on boots is chancy since a snow slide could bury the tent before they could dress. They go to the trees because a snow slide would go as far, should it happen. They continue all the way down the slope because a snow slide could happen at any time. Only a threat from the air would be totally out of their control and prompt such extreme behaviour.
when do you readers believe they first asked ,"What were we thinking?"
-
So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs ! ? And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS ! ?
Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...
Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).
Exactly, there was no pin point accuracy of bombs or missiles in those days, all the more reason to have TESTS carried out in specific areas where such expeditions as the Dyatlov Group would not venture. The MANSI being the local tribe have not mentioned anything that looks like Military Aircraft or Missiles being tested in the area in question. They would know wouldnt they ! ?
-
Hello,
I don't believe the hikers were permitted to go to a bombing range. I do believe that if the Soviet armed forces wished to train flyers in a barren low mountainous area they would do it. I believe that the shock produced by a flight of low Jets and the uncertainty of their intention would be motivation enough for the hikers to seek relative safety in the trees. They can not wave the Jets off, only vacate the area. Given the distance from camp to trees, the threat of destruction was real. Too, if human error got the hikers off track and put them on the side of a barren hill for the night, could a small navigational error out a Soviet MIG on the wrong side of a mountain top? This tragedy would not have happened if the hikers camped in the trees. Trees were safety. Please keep the discussion going. I value your thoughts.
Good enough point. I remember when I used to go fishing in England near the Welsh Borders and often would be surprised at the appearance and sound of a LOW FLYING FIGHTER JET of the RAF. Sometimes we would stop fishing and watch the aerial antics. Never once was I concerned though. I think it would have had to have been something other than a low flying plane to cause the Dyatlov Group to abandon their safety refuge.
Agreed. I have often been buzzed by very low flying aircraft and although it can startle you it doesn’t lead to panic. Unless of course they had already started to drop ordinance.
No evidence of ordinance being dropped was found by the search parties.
I don't think they were looking very hard TBH.
The search parties were all over the area. It wouldnt have taken much effort to find something if such Military activities had been taking place.
-
So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs ! ? And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS ! ?
Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...
Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).
You are right. There is no way that the authorities had the level of control required to ensure that every department and organisation knew everything that was going on in all the other departments. Especially when it came to testing new technologies. We can't even achieve that level of control today with all of our advances in IT.
The Ural Polytechnic Institute which is called today Ural State Technical University (USTU) is the biggest technical institution of higher education in Russia, with a prestigious history going back to 1920. It trained some of the best scientists in the USSR and now RUSSIA. What does this tell us ! ? It tells us you are wrong in your deduction re the Authorities.
-
Hi again,
Personally, I think that the jet(s) would not have to fire a shot. All that is necessary is to induce a ground vibration so strong that the possibility of avalanche seems iminant. It would be foolish for the party to stay in the tent and wait and see what will happen next. It would be just as pointless for one person to poke their head out of the tent and look around. The only thing that matters is that they all came to the singular conclusion that staying in the tent was not worth dying for. Even taking time to put on boots is chancy since a snow slide could bury the tent before they could dress. They go to the trees because a snow slide would go as far, should it happen. They continue all the way down the slope because a snow slide could happen at any time. Only a threat from the air would be totally out of their control and prompt such extreme behaviour.
when do you readers believe they first asked ,"What were we thinking?"
Highly unlikely. Why would they be scared of their own Armed Forces ! ?
-
Exactly, there was no pin point accuracy of bombs or missiles in those days, all the more reason to have TESTS carried out in specific areas where such expeditions as the Dyatlov Group would not venture. The MANSI being the local tribe have not mentioned anything that looks like Military Aircraft or Missiles being tested in the area in question. They would know wouldnt they ! ?
To be honest, I have no idea how familiar were the Mansi with modern tech of that time, let alone something under development. They mentioned bright lights in the sky, just like Ivanov. I don't know how would Mansi have interpreted the sighting for example decoy flares used in air force training. There is hardly ever any evidence on the ground after aerial combat or other air force training, unless something goes wrong.
The Ural Polytechnic Institute which is called today Ural State Technical University (USTU) is the biggest technical institution of higher education in Russia, with a prestigious history going back to 1920. It trained some of the best scientists in the USSR and now RUSSIA. What does this tell us ! ? It tells us you are wrong in your deduction re the Authorities.
The air force would have NEVER shared an information of that nature with any educational institution, not even in democratic country. A person needs an individual security clearance to access that. It would also defeat the purpose of labeling certain activities top secret. (Even if there was let's say "closed circle" of personnel at the Polytechnic istitute with security clearance, they would risk prosecution and life sentence for treason if they disclosed it)
-
Hi again,
Personally, I think that the jet(s) would not have to fire a shot. All that is necessary is to induce a ground vibration so strong that the possibility of avalanche seems iminant. It would be foolish for the party to stay in the tent and wait and see what will happen next. It would be just as pointless for one person to poke their head out of the tent and look around. The only thing that matters is that they all came to the singular conclusion that staying in the tent was not worth dying for. Even taking time to put on boots is chancy since a snow slide could bury the tent before they could dress. They go to the trees because a snow slide would go as far, should it happen. They continue all the way down the slope because a snow slide could happen at any time. Only a threat from the air would be totally out of their control and prompt such extreme behaviour.
when do you readers believe they first asked ,"What were we thinking?"
Highly unlikely. Why would they be scared of their own Armed Forces ! ?
Friendly fire and civilian kills by mistake are far to common to be ruled out. Anybody would be scared if under impression of an incoming threat of being bombed (not necessarily a genuine threat) To put it bluntly, I would be scared to death if was in a wrong place in Iraq if I was under impression of an incoming air strike fom USAF, no matter if I was American too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_friendly_fire_incidents
-
So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs ! ? And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS ! ?
Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...
Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).
You are right. There is no way that the authorities had the level of control required to ensure that every department and organisation knew everything that was going on in all the other departments. Especially when it came to testing new technologies. We can't even achieve that level of control today with all of our advances in IT.
The Ural Polytechnic Institute which is called today Ural State Technical University (USTU) is the biggest technical institution of higher education in Russia, with a prestigious history going back to 1920. It trained some of the best scientists in the USSR and now RUSSIA. What does this tell us ! ? It tells us you are wrong in your deduction re the Authorities.
It tells us only what you have stated about the the university. That it's a good Russian University. People as a general rule are very poor at communication. Even when they want to be communicative. Large organisations are notorious for poor communication leading to errors and inefficiencies and mistakes. What you are trying to say is kind of like - people don't make mistakes or forget to do things they are suppose to.
Just look at the different witness statements about the location of Dyatlov' s jacket in the DPI. This is a good example of what happens when information is processed and communicated by people.
-
All behaviour is motivated. If the hikers were assaulted on the ground, cut out if their tent and made to march down hill, there must be a reason. Allowing a group to return for supplies is unreasonable. Keeping supplies at camp to tempt them to return is unreasonable. Assaulting 9 healthy people at night in sub zero temperature who are stuck on a hilkside is a collosal investment of time and energy with no positive outcome is illogical. Not robbing them is more illogical. Doing it for fun, religion or a good scare is a collosal, dangerous and pointless act. The only thing tha makes sense is the hikers were up against something they could not fight, nor win against. Jets and jet related effects including manuevers is reasonable.
-
All behaviour is motivated. If the hikers were assaulted on the ground, cut out if their tent and made to march down hill, there must be a reason. Allowing a group to return for supplies is unreasonable. Keeping supplies at camp to tempt them to return is unreasonable. Assaulting 9 healthy people at night in sub zero temperature who are stuck on a hilkside is a collosal investment of time and energy with no positive outcome is illogical. Not robbing them is more illogical. Doing it for fun, religion or a good scare is a collosal, dangerous and pointless act. The only thing tha makes sense is the hikers were up against something they could not fight, nor win against. Jets and jet related effects including manuevers is reasonable.
These hikers were experienced and knew the risks of leaving the tent and the camp. They would have to be sure that they were in immediate danger.
Also why grab a camera if they were petrified and panicked?
There was likely to be some kind of warning or build up before they realised the danger.
-
Exactly, there was no pin point accuracy of bombs or missiles in those days, all the more reason to have TESTS carried out in specific areas where such expeditions as the Dyatlov Group would not venture. The MANSI being the local tribe have not mentioned anything that looks like Military Aircraft or Missiles being tested in the area in question. They would know wouldnt they ! ?
To be honest, I have no idea how familiar were the Mansi with modern tech of that time, let alone something under development. They mentioned bright lights in the sky, just like Ivanov. I don't know how would Mansi have interpreted the sighting for example decoy flares used in air force training. There is hardly ever any evidence on the ground after aerial combat or other air force training, unless something goes wrong.
The Ural Polytechnic Institute which is called today Ural State Technical University (USTU) is the biggest technical institution of higher education in Russia, with a prestigious history going back to 1920. It trained some of the best scientists in the USSR and now RUSSIA. What does this tell us ! ? It tells us you are wrong in your deduction re the Authorities.
The air force would have NEVER shared an information of that nature with any educational institution, not even in democratic country. A person needs an individual security clearance to access that. It would also defeat the purpose of labeling certain activities top secret. (Even if there was let's say "closed circle" of personnel at the Polytechnic istitute with security clearance, they would risk prosecution and life sentence for treason if they disclosed it)
The MANSI were not a stone age tribe and therefore would have had some contact with modern tech.
But the point is that the INSTITUTE worked hand in hand with the Authorities and also the Military for purposes of training scientists who may become involved with the Military.
-
Hi again,
Personally, I think that the jet(s) would not have to fire a shot. All that is necessary is to induce a ground vibration so strong that the possibility of avalanche seems iminant. It would be foolish for the party to stay in the tent and wait and see what will happen next. It would be just as pointless for one person to poke their head out of the tent and look around. The only thing that matters is that they all came to the singular conclusion that staying in the tent was not worth dying for. Even taking time to put on boots is chancy since a snow slide could bury the tent before they could dress. They go to the trees because a snow slide would go as far, should it happen. They continue all the way down the slope because a snow slide could happen at any time. Only a threat from the air would be totally out of their control and prompt such extreme behaviour.
when do you readers believe they first asked ,"What were we thinking?"
Highly unlikely. Why would they be scared of their own Armed Forces ! ?
Friendly fire and civilian kills by mistake are far to common to be ruled out. Anybody would be scared if under impression of an incoming threat of being bombed (not necessarily a genuine threat) To put it bluntly, I would be scared to death if was in a wrong place in Iraq if I was under impression of an incoming air strike fom USAF, no matter if I was American too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_friendly_fire_incidents
No evidence found on the ground to suggest BOMBS or MISSILE attacks. If they were aware of low flying warplanes they could still have gathered their life support equipment before walking a mile away from their Tent.
-
So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs ! ? And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS ! ?
Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...
Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).
You are right. There is no way that the authorities had the level of control required to ensure that every department and organisation knew everything that was going on in all the other departments. Especially when it came to testing new technologies. We can't even achieve that level of control today with all of our advances in IT.
The Ural Polytechnic Institute which is called today Ural State Technical University (USTU) is the biggest technical institution of higher education in Russia, with a prestigious history going back to 1920. It trained some of the best scientists in the USSR and now RUSSIA. What does this tell us ! ? It tells us you are wrong in your deduction re the Authorities.
It tells us only what you have stated about the the university. That it's a good Russian University. People as a general rule are very poor at communication. Even when they want to be communicative. Large organisations are notorious for poor communication leading to errors and inefficiencies and mistakes. What you are trying to say is kind of like - people don't make mistakes or forget to do things they are suppose to.
Just look at the different witness statements about the location of Dyatlov' s jacket in the DPI. This is a good example of what happens when information is processed and communicated by people.
It wasnt just a good INSTITUTE it was one of the most important in the USSR. It had connections to the Military Authorities, etc.
-
All behaviour is motivated. If the hikers were assaulted on the ground, cut out if their tent and made to march down hill, there must be a reason. Allowing a group to return for supplies is unreasonable. Keeping supplies at camp to tempt them to return is unreasonable. Assaulting 9 healthy people at night in sub zero temperature who are stuck on a hilkside is a collosal investment of time and energy with no positive outcome is illogical. Not robbing them is more illogical. Doing it for fun, religion or a good scare is a collosal, dangerous and pointless act. The only thing tha makes sense is the hikers were up against something they could not fight, nor win against. Jets and jet related effects including manuevers is reasonable.
Jets are reasonable ! ? No they are not because they would have had to have been Jets of the USSR. And its highly unlikely that the Military Authorities, who worked closely with the INSTITUTE that sent the Dyatlov Group to that area, would conduct manuevers in that area.
-
All behaviour is motivated. If the hikers were assaulted on the ground, cut out if their tent and made to march down hill, there must be a reason. Allowing a group to return for supplies is unreasonable. Keeping supplies at camp to tempt them to return is unreasonable. Assaulting 9 healthy people at night in sub zero temperature who are stuck on a hilkside is a collosal investment of time and energy with no positive outcome is illogical. Not robbing them is more illogical. Doing it for fun, religion or a good scare is a collosal, dangerous and pointless act. The only thing tha makes sense is the hikers were up against something they could not fight, nor win against. Jets and jet related effects including manuevers is reasonable.
These hikers were experienced and knew the risks of leaving the tent and the camp. They would have to be sure that they were in immediate danger.
Also why grab a camera if they were petrified and panicked?
There was likely to be some kind of warning or build up before they realised the danger.
Well that warning or build up would have been fairly quick I would have thought. They left in a hurry or they would have had time to get dressed properly.
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All behaviour is motivated. If the hikers were assaulted on the ground, cut out if their tent and made to march down hill, there must be a reason. Allowing a group to return for supplies is unreasonable. Keeping supplies at camp to tempt them to return is unreasonable. Assaulting 9 healthy people at night in sub zero temperature who are stuck on a hilkside is a collosal investment of time and energy with no positive outcome is illogical. Not robbing them is more illogical. Doing it for fun, religion or a good scare is a collosal, dangerous and pointless act. The only thing tha makes sense is the hikers were up against something they could not fight, nor win against. Jets and jet related effects including manuevers is reasonable.
Jets are reasonable ! ? No they are not because they would have had to have been Jets of the USSR. And its highly unlikely that the Military Authorities, who worked closely with the INSTITUTE that sent the Dyatlov Group to that area, would conduct manuevers in that area.
How EXACTLY was the air force of the USSR connected to the institute?
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All behaviour is motivated. If the hikers were assaulted on the ground, cut out if their tent and made to march down hill, there must be a reason. Allowing a group to return for supplies is unreasonable. Keeping supplies at camp to tempt them to return is unreasonable. Assaulting 9 healthy people at night in sub zero temperature who are stuck on a hilkside is a collosal investment of time and energy with no positive outcome is illogical. Not robbing them is more illogical. Doing it for fun, religion or a good scare is a collosal, dangerous and pointless act. The only thing tha makes sense is the hikers were up against something they could not fight, nor win against. Jets and jet related effects including manuevers is reasonable.
The exact nature of the connection would be classified. But its common knowledge that the INSTITUTE was very much an important part of the machinery of the USSR, and that includes MILITARY. Today you have colleges and schools that have close connections with the Military especially in the USA.
Jets are reasonable ! ? No they are not because they would have had to have been Jets of the USSR. And its highly unlikely that the Military Authorities, who worked closely with the INSTITUTE that sent the Dyatlov Group to that area, would conduct manuevers in that area.
How EXACTLY was the air force of the USSR connected to the institute?
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So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs ! ? And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS ! ?
Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...
Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).
You are right. There is no way that the authorities had the level of control required to ensure that every department and organisation knew everything that was going on in all the other departments. Especially when it came to testing new technologies. We can't even achieve that level of control today with all of our advances in IT.
The Ural Polytechnic Institute which is called today Ural State Technical University (USTU) is the biggest technical institution of higher education in Russia, with a prestigious history going back to 1920. It trained some of the best scientists in the USSR and now RUSSIA. What does this tell us ! ? It tells us you are wrong in your deduction re the Authorities.
It tells us only what you have stated about the the university. That it's a good Russian University. People as a general rule are very poor at communication. Even when they want to be communicative. Large organisations are notorious for poor communication leading to errors and inefficiencies and mistakes. What you are trying to say is kind of like - people don't make mistakes or forget to do things they are suppose to.
Just look at the different witness statements about the location of Dyatlov' s jacket in the DPI. This is a good example of what happens when information is processed and communicated by people.
It wasnt just a good INSTITUTE it was one of the most important in the USSR. It had connections to the Military Authorities, etc.
It doesn't matter how good it was. The collective machine will still get many things wrong. To assume otherwise is flawed.
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So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs ! ? And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS ! ?
Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...
Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).
You are right. There is no way that the authorities had the level of control required to ensure that every department and organisation knew everything that was going on in all the other departments. Especially when it came to testing new technologies. We can't even achieve that level of control today with all of our advances in IT.
The Ural Polytechnic Institute which is called today Ural State Technical University (USTU) is the biggest technical institution of higher education in Russia, with a prestigious history going back to 1920. It trained some of the best scientists in the USSR and now RUSSIA. What does this tell us ! ? It tells us you are wrong in your deduction re the Authorities.
It tells us only what you have stated about the the university. That it's a good Russian University. People as a general rule are very poor at communication. Even when they want to be communicative. Large organisations are notorious for poor communication leading to errors and inefficiencies and mistakes. What you are trying to say is kind of like - people don't make mistakes or forget to do things they are suppose to.
Just look at the different witness statements about the location of Dyatlov' s jacket in the DPI. This is a good example of what happens when information is processed and communicated by people.
It wasnt just a good INSTITUTE it was one of the most important in the USSR. It had connections to the Military Authorities, etc.
It doesn't matter how good it was. The collective machine will still get many things wrong. To assume otherwise is flawed.
How do you know what went on in the USSR ! ?
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So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs ! ? And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS ! ?
Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...
Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).
You are right. There is no way that the authorities had the level of control required to ensure that every department and organisation knew everything that was going on in all the other departments. Especially when it came to testing new technologies. We can't even achieve that level of control today with all of our advances in IT.
The Ural Polytechnic Institute which is called today Ural State Technical University (USTU) is the biggest technical institution of higher education in Russia, with a prestigious history going back to 1920. It trained some of the best scientists in the USSR and now RUSSIA. What does this tell us ! ? It tells us you are wrong in your deduction re the Authorities.
It tells us only what you have stated about the the university. That it's a good Russian University. People as a general rule are very poor at communication. Even when they want to be communicative. Large organisations are notorious for poor communication leading to errors and inefficiencies and mistakes. What you are trying to say is kind of like - people don't make mistakes or forget to do things they are suppose to.
Just look at the different witness statements about the location of Dyatlov' s jacket in the DPI. This is a good example of what happens when information is processed and communicated by people.
It wasnt just a good INSTITUTE it was one of the most important in the USSR. It had connections to the Military Authorities, etc.
It doesn't matter how good it was. The collective machine will still get many things wrong. To assume otherwise is flawed.
How do you know what went on in the USSR ! ?
I know that they are people. And any system involving people will be far from perfect.
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Hikers left the high ground and sought the low ground. Reasonable. They tried to return, also reasonable. They made fire and tried to dug a cave. Reasonable. They took clothes from the dead. Reasonable. They abandoned their camp because there was something they could not reason with. You can't reason with a jet. You can't reason with shaking ground and you can't reason with snow. You certainly can't reason with the combination of all 3. The three stimuli elicit one of two responses, namely fight or flight. Flight is reasonable.
Does make me wonder if jets produce enough vibration to register seismically? Could the USA detect that in 1959?
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Hikers left the high ground and sought the low ground. Reasonable. They tried to return, also reasonable. They made fire and tried to dug a cave. Reasonable. They took clothes from the dead. Reasonable. They abandoned their camp because there was something they could not reason with. You can't reason with a jet. You can't reason with shaking ground and you can't reason with snow. You certainly can't reason with the combination of all 3. The three stimuli elicit one of two responses, namely fight or flight. Flight is reasonable.
Does make me wonder if jets produce enough vibration to register seismically? Could the USA detect that in 1959?
Is it reasonable to leave the safety of the TENT not properly clothed or equipped and walk a mile in severe weather conditions ! ? Your hypothetical JET is doing what exactly ! ? Is it flying around and around or what ! ?
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A low flying jet passing the mountain would only startle them. They would not put their lives at risk for that. If the jet had dropped flares as a marker and the group thought that some kind of weapon would be dropped then why wasn't it dropped? They would not just drop flares for the no reason.
So why would the tourist think their lives were at risk?
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Hi guys,
The search for new evidence goes on because nobody has found the proverbial smoking gun. It is probable there will not be any. Jets leave nothing but a roar and a rumble. At night, intentions unclear, snowpack disturbed, getting out of danger is reasonable. Walking a mile in snow is not reasonable unless at some point the need for heat was greater than the need for shelter.This sends them to the trees. There is no evidence the hikers were approached on ground by man nor beast. All their property remained. The threat was temporary, but life threatening.The behavior of the hikers is logical and consistent with survival instinct at the tree, the trail or the ravine. When you rule out the impossible, whatever remains, though unlikely is the reason.
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Hi guys,
The search for new evidence goes on because nobody has found the proverbial smoking gun. It is probable there will not be any. Jets leave nothing but a roar and a rumble. At night, intentions unclear, snowpack disturbed, getting out of danger is reasonable. Walking a mile in snow is not reasonable unless at some point the need for heat was greater than the need for shelter.This sends them to the trees. There is no evidence the hikers were approached on ground by man nor beast. All their property remained. The threat was temporary, but life threatening.The behavior of the hikers is logical and consistent with survival instinct at the tree, the trail or the ravine. When you rule out the impossible, whatever remains, though unlikely is the reason.
You are right that there is no smoking gun. The camp site is where the smoking gun was likely to be. Problem is the camp site was not well preserved as a scene when search and rescue teams arrived. Which means there multiple possible theories. A jet is just of those. Eliminating the various theories is difficult.
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Hi guys,
The search for new evidence goes on because nobody has found the proverbial smoking gun. It is probable there will not be any. Jets leave nothing but a roar and a rumble. At night, intentions unclear, snowpack disturbed, getting out of danger is reasonable. Walking a mile in snow is not reasonable unless at some point the need for heat was greater than the need for shelter.This sends them to the trees. There is no evidence the hikers were approached on ground by man nor beast. All their property remained. The threat was temporary, but life threatening.The behavior of the hikers is logical and consistent with survival instinct at the tree, the trail or the ravine. When you rule out the impossible, whatever remains, though unlikely is the reason.
You seem to be missing the point. You said the threat was temporary. But how do you know that the threat was temporary ! ? And if it was temporary why on earth would they all walk a mile in such conditions without being fully clothed and equipped, a sure death sentence if ever there was.
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Hi all,
Grist to the mill. First, the tragedy was buried for thirty years, no pun intended. Secondly, there is a missing roll of film. If the hikers were not just listening, but also transmitting and it was intercepted, then perhaps the Soviet asks ,"who in the world would be horsing around with a radio in the middle of nowhere in the dead of night?". The military does a flyover. The hikers fear a fundimental attribution error and run for cover. Russia had a very good reason to be on guard. They locked horns with the only country on earth that used a nuclear weapon, twice! Nikita K. was angling to use Cuba. The doomsday clock wes about 4 minutes from midnight.
They did find a radio transmitter, right?
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Hi all,
Grist to the mill. First, the tragedy was buried for thirty years, no pun intended. Secondly, there is a missing roll of film. If the hikers were not just listening, but also transmitting and it was intercepted, then perhaps the Soviet asks ,"who in the world would be horsing around with a radio in the middle of nowhere in the dead of night?". The military does a flyover. The hikers fear a fundimental attribution error and run for cover. Russia had a very good reason to be on guard. They locked horns with the only country on earth that used a nuclear weapon, twice! Nikita K. was angling to use Cuba. The doomsday clock wes about 4 minutes from midnight.
They did find a radio transmitter, right?
I wouldnt say the EVENT was buried for 30 years, more like it was just forgotten and only in peoples memory especially relatives and friends. There appears to be lots of missing items not just a roll of film. Such Groups didnt just wonder willy nilly into these wilderness areas without first clearing it with their superiors. So there is absolutely no reason to believe that the USSR Military were involved in this Groups DEMISE.
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Hi all,
Grist to the mill. First, the tragedy was buried for thirty years, no pun intended. Secondly, there is a missing roll of film. If the hikers were not just listening, but also transmitting and it was intercepted, then perhaps the Soviet asks ,"who in the world would be horsing around with a radio in the middle of nowhere in the dead of night?". The military does a flyover. The hikers fear a fundimental attribution error and run for cover. Russia had a very good reason to be on guard. They locked horns with the only country on earth that used a nuclear weapon, twice! Nikita K. was angling to use Cuba. The doomsday clock wes about 4 minutes from midnight.
They did find a radio transmitter, right?
I wouldnt say the EVENT was buried for 30 years, more like it was just forgotten and only in peoples memory especially relatives and friends. There appears to be lots of missing items not just a roll of film. Such Groups didnt just wonder willy nilly into these wilderness areas without first clearing it with their superiors. So there is absolutely no reason to believe that the USSR Military were involved in this Groups DEMISE.
The superiors of the Dyatlov group were 99,9% unlikely to have access to classified information about ANY military activities. In the 0,01% unlikely scenario where they would know something, they would be strictly forbidden to tell anybody without the security clearance. It is written exactly in the Article 259 of the Criminal Code of the Russian SFR. Such action was punishable 2-5 years in prison in the absence of inditia of treason or 10 years to death penalty in case of a conviction of treason (deliberate spread of classified information to an outside party).
There is no logical way to assume that any part of the Amed forces (Air force for example) would share any kind of information regarding the testing of weapons or any other activity outside their department, the high command and the leadership of the USSR. There is an actual list of people who can have access to state secrets ex oficio and the people who approved the route of Dyatlov group just are not on the list. Anybody else would need an individual security clearance.
We know for a fact there were tests of weapon systems, airplanes and other technology in 1959, we just cannot prove that it was underway at the exact time or place. On the balance of probablity, it is actually very rational to assume that one or more of these tests or excercises might have gone wrong. We obviously do not know that, there is only circumstantial evidence of a cover-up so far. Hence if we assume there was a cover-up or at least some evidence was confiscated , it points us at the direction that someting that was classified at the time took place in early February 1959. That obviously does not mean that such an activity had a DIRECT effect on what happened to Dyatlov&co, but it is a reasonable theory and a legitimate possibility to consider when the investigation is on.
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Hi all,
Grist to the mill. First, the tragedy was buried for thirty years, no pun intended. Secondly, there is a missing roll of film. If the hikers were not just listening, but also transmitting and it was intercepted, then perhaps the Soviet asks ,"who in the world would be horsing around with a radio in the middle of nowhere in the dead of night?". The military does a flyover. The hikers fear a fundimental attribution error and run for cover. Russia had a very good reason to be on guard. They locked horns with the only country on earth that used a nuclear weapon, twice! Nikita K. was angling to use Cuba. The doomsday clock wes about 4 minutes from midnight.
They did find a radio transmitter, right?
I wouldnt say the EVENT was buried for 30 years, more like it was just forgotten and only in peoples memory especially relatives and friends. There appears to be lots of missing items not just a roll of film. Such Groups didnt just wonder willy nilly into these wilderness areas without first clearing it with their superiors. So there is absolutely no reason to believe that the USSR Military were involved in this Groups DEMISE.
The superiors of the Dyatlov group were 99,9% unlikely to have access to classified information about ANY military activities. In the 0,01% unlikely scenario where they would know something, they would be strictly forbidden to tell anybody without the security clearance. It is written exactly in the Article 259 of the Criminal Code of the Russian SFR. Such action was punishable 2-5 years in prison in the absence of inditia of treason or 10 years to death penalty in case of a conviction of treason (deliberate spread of classified information to an outside party).
There is no logical way to assume that any part of the Amed forces (Air force for example) would share any kind of information regarding the testing of weapons or any other activity outside their department, the high command and the leadership of the USSR. There is an actual list of people who can have access to state secrets ex oficio and the people who approved the route of Dyatlov group just are not on the list. Anybody else would need an individual security clearance.
We know for a fact there were tests of weapon systems, airplanes and other technology in 1959, we just cannot prove that it was underway at the exact time or place. On the balance of probablity, it is actually very rational to assume that one or more of these tests or excercises might have gone wrong. We obviously do not know that, there is only circumstantial evidence of a cover-up so far. Hence if we assume there was a cover-up or at least some evidence was confiscated , it points us at the direction that someting that was classified at the time took place in early February 1959. That obviously does not mean that such an activity had a DIRECT effect on what happened to Dyatlov&co, but it is a reasonable theory and a legitimate possibility to consider when the investigation is on.
Why do you bring up Classified Information ! ? Even in the USSR they had good old common sense. The Dyatlov Group would only need to know whether or not the area that they were tavelling through was not subject to any Military excercises at the time of their PLANNED ROUTE. Note ; PLANNED ROUTE, that means date and times of travel as well as the actual route. Its so obvious that the Military of the USSR along with most other Militaries in the World have and still do carry out all sorts of exercises. There is absolutely no evidence what so ever to suggest that any Military Accident caused the demise of the Dyatlov group.
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Hello,
Have you seen the picture of the collapsed tent bring looked upon be the search party. I did and I am baffled. The snow on and near the canvas looks chunky, not at all like drift snow. The snow looks like it was thrown on the canvas. In the near distance the slope appears smooth and windswept. Snow thrown on the tent? Of course it didn't happen that someone threw boulder sized chunks of snow on the tent and around it.. Could it be possible that a blast on the far side of the hill rained down these bread loaf sized pieces of snow? The blast of course would have come from munitions.which were delivered by jets. If true then a bombardment of solid snow raining down on the tent would prompt evacuation, post haste. I am not aware of anyone looking on the back side of the hill for evidence, are you?
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Why do you bring up Classified Information ! ? Even in the USSR they had good old common sense. The Dyatlov Group would only need to know whether or not the area that they were tavelling through was not subject to any Military excercises at the time of their PLANNED ROUTE. Note ; PLANNED ROUTE, that means date and times of travel as well as the actual route. Its so obvious that the Military of the USSR along with most other Militaries in the World have and still do carry out all sorts of exercises. There is absolutely no evidence what so ever to suggest that any Military Accident caused the demise of the Dyatlov group.
I bring it up because it is relevant to the theory of government or military involvement. To cut the long story short, the very poor standard of the investigation along with Ivanov's statements and later actions strongly suggest there was something to cover up or to withhold certain information from the public. The legal basis for that is that there was something that the state considered classified. I would really like to know what Ivanov discussed in Moscow before he agreed to close the case or why was the area closed to public for next 3 years.
"For the shortcomings in the organization of tourist work and weak control of the bureau of the Sverdlovsk GC the CPSU punished in party terms: the director of the Ural Polytechnic Institute Siunov, the secretary of the party bureau Zaostrovsky, the chairman of the trade union UPK Slobodin, the chairman of the city union of voluntary sports societies Kurochkin and the inspector of the union Ufimtsev. The chairman of the board of the sports club of the Gordo Institute has been removed from work."
This statement signed by Ivanov pretty much contradicts your claims about how the "authorities" at the Institute would not have made a mistake to approve the "wrong" route of the Dyatlov group. They were actually punished for doing so.
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Hello,
Have you seen the picture of the collapsed tent bring looked upon be the search party. I did and I am baffled. The snow on and near the canvas looks chunky, not at all like drift snow. The snow looks like it was thrown on the canvas. In the near distance the slope appears smooth and windswept. Snow thrown on the tent? Of course it didn't happen that someone threw boulder sized chunks of snow on the tent and around it.. Could it be possible that a blast on the far side of the hill rained down these bread loaf sized pieces of snow? The blast of course would have come from munitions.which were delivered by jets. If true then a bombardment of solid snow raining down on the tent would prompt evacuation, post haste. I am not aware of anyone looking on the back side of the hill for evidence, are you?
When the rescuers reached the tent they found the snow on the tent "as hard as wood" and cut the tent breaking through it. Which would explain the chunks. Why it was as hard as wood is more interesting, perhaps the temperature was raised before refreezing or some chemical process...
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Why do you bring up Classified Information ! ? Even in the USSR they had good old common sense. The Dyatlov Group would only need to know whether or not the area that they were tavelling through was not subject to any Military excercises at the time of their PLANNED ROUTE. Note ; PLANNED ROUTE, that means date and times of travel as well as the actual route. Its so obvious that the Military of the USSR along with most other Militaries in the World have and still do carry out all sorts of exercises. There is absolutely no evidence what so ever to suggest that any Military Accident caused the demise of the Dyatlov group.
I bring it up because it is relevant to the theory of government or military involvement. To cut the long story short, the very poor standard of the investigation along with Ivanov's statements and later actions strongly suggest there was something to cover up or to withhold certain information from the public. The legal basis for that is that there was something that the state considered classified. I would really like to know what Ivanov discussed in Moscow before he agreed to close the case or why was the area closed to public for next 3 years.
"For the shortcomings in the organization of tourist work and weak control of the bureau of the Sverdlovsk GC the CPSU punished in party terms: the director of the Ural Polytechnic Institute Siunov, the secretary of the party bureau Zaostrovsky, the chairman of the trade union UPK Slobodin, the chairman of the city union of voluntary sports societies Kurochkin and the inspector of the union Ufimtsev. The chairman of the board of the sports club of the Gordo Institute has been removed from work."
This statement signed by Ivanov pretty much contradicts your claims about how the "authorities" at the Institute would not have made a mistake to approve the "wrong" route of the Dyatlov group. They were actually punished for doing so.
Are you saying that these people were actually punished for approving their route? If so how did you find this out? I think this would be very important information for the case if it is correct.
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Hello,
Have you seen the picture of the collapsed tent bring looked upon be the search party. I did and I am baffled. The snow on and near the canvas looks chunky, not at all like drift snow. The snow looks like it was thrown on the canvas. In the near distance the slope appears smooth and windswept. Snow thrown on the tent? Of course it didn't happen that someone threw boulder sized chunks of snow on the tent and around it.. Could it be possible that a blast on the far side of the hill rained down these bread loaf sized pieces of snow? The blast of course would have come from munitions.which were delivered by jets. If true then a bombardment of solid snow raining down on the tent would prompt evacuation, post haste. I am not aware of anyone looking on the back side of the hill for evidence, are you?
The Dyatlov group dug out a lot of snow when they set up the tent. Some of this snow was suppose to have blown away and covered some of the foot prints around the tent. The lumps could be the snow that was dug out when they pitched their tent.
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Are you saying that these people were actually punished for approving their route? If so how did you find this out? I think this would be very important information for the case if it is correct.
It says so in the Ivanov's reasoning for closing the investigation. At very least they were removed from their positions. I would prefer that a Russian speaker takes a look at the original scans so the meaning is not lost in translation. Also, the official letter to justify why they were fired must have existed.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-384-387?rbid=17743
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Hence if we assume there was a cover-up or at least some evidence was confiscated ,
There's no need to assume it, Okishev and Ivanov stated it as fact and Okishev recalled that the confiscation was performed by a officer with the rank of Colonel. Which is quite a high rank for the task of collecting some papers and photos... Clearly of some importance.
This from Ivanov's interview :-
The fact is that at the time of our investigation the Tagilsky Rabochiy newspaper published a small article about sighting during the students’ ascent of the Otorten of a Fire Orb, or, as we call it today, an Unidentified Flying Object (UFO) in the sky above Nizhny Tagil. In absolute silence the strange light crossed the sky in the direction of the northern tops of the Ural mountains. The author of the article questioned: what could that be? The newspaper editor was severely reprimanded for this publication, and I, in my turn, received orders from the Obkom to abstain from research into this topic. Supervision of my investigation into the case was taken over by Second secretary of the Party Obkom A.F.Yeshtokin.
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Hello,
Have you seen the picture of the collapsed tent bring looked upon be the search party. I did and I am baffled. The snow on and near the canvas looks chunky, not at all like drift snow. The snow looks like it was thrown on the canvas. In the near distance the slope appears smooth and windswept. Snow thrown on the tent? Of course it didn't happen that someone threw boulder sized chunks of snow on the tent and around it.. Could it be possible that a blast on the far side of the hill rained down these bread loaf sized pieces of snow? The blast of course would have come from munitions.which were delivered by jets. If true then a bombardment of solid snow raining down on the tent would prompt evacuation, post haste. I am not aware of anyone looking on the back side of the hill for evidence, are you?
Snow at Tent looks like it could be the result of SNOWING and also wind action.
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Why do you bring up Classified Information ! ? Even in the USSR they had good old common sense. The Dyatlov Group would only need to know whether or not the area that they were tavelling through was not subject to any Military excercises at the time of their PLANNED ROUTE. Note ; PLANNED ROUTE, that means date and times of travel as well as the actual route. Its so obvious that the Military of the USSR along with most other Militaries in the World have and still do carry out all sorts of exercises. There is absolutely no evidence what so ever to suggest that any Military Accident caused the demise of the Dyatlov group.
I bring it up because it is relevant to the theory of government or military involvement. To cut the long story short, the very poor standard of the investigation along with Ivanov's statements and later actions strongly suggest there was something to cover up or to withhold certain information from the public. The legal basis for that is that there was something that the state considered classified. I would really like to know what Ivanov discussed in Moscow before he agreed to close the case or why was the area closed to public for next 3 years.
"For the shortcomings in the organization of tourist work and weak control of the bureau of the Sverdlovsk GC the CPSU punished in party terms: the director of the Ural Polytechnic Institute Siunov, the secretary of the party bureau Zaostrovsky, the chairman of the trade union UPK Slobodin, the chairman of the city union of voluntary sports societies Kurochkin and the inspector of the union Ufimtsev. The chairman of the board of the sports club of the Gordo Institute has been removed from work."
This statement signed by Ivanov pretty much contradicts your claims about how the "authorities" at the Institute would not have made a mistake to approve the "wrong" route of the Dyatlov group. They were actually punished for doing so.
Well its a good point you make. Basically you are saying that the Authorities were wrong to let the Dyatlov Group go on the ROUTE that they did. However its also possible that the Authorities made the right decision but something so profound happened that the Higher Authorities had to find a cover.
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Hello,
Have you seen the picture of the collapsed tent bring looked upon be the search party. I did and I am baffled. The snow on and near the canvas looks chunky, not at all like drift snow. The snow looks like it was thrown on the canvas. In the near distance the slope appears smooth and windswept. Snow thrown on the tent? Of course it didn't happen that someone threw boulder sized chunks of snow on the tent and around it.. Could it be possible that a blast on the far side of the hill rained down these bread loaf sized pieces of snow? The blast of course would have come from munitions.which were delivered by jets. If true then a bombardment of solid snow raining down on the tent would prompt evacuation, post haste. I am not aware of anyone looking on the back side of the hill for evidence, are you?
When the rescuers reached the tent they found the snow on the tent "as hard as wood" and cut the tent breaking through it. Which would explain the chunks. Why it was as hard as wood is more interesting, perhaps the temperature was raised before refreezing or some chemical process...
Wouldnt FREEZING suffice.
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Are you saying that these people were actually punished for approving their route? If so how did you find this out? I think this would be very important information for the case if it is correct.
It says so in the Ivanov's reasoning for closing the investigation. At very least they were removed from their positions. I would prefer that a Russian speaker takes a look at the original scans so the meaning is not lost in translation. Also, the official letter to justify why they were fired must have existed.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-384-387?rbid=17743
It doesnt actually say that they were punished for approving their route. All it says is ; '' For the shortcomings in the organization of tourist work and weak control of the bureau of the Sverdlovsk GC ''. I believe one person was removed from his work.
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Well its a good point you make. Basically you are saying that the Authorities were wrong to let the Dyatlov Group go on the ROUTE that they did. However its also possible that the Authorities made the right decision but something so profound happened that the Higher Authorities had to find a cover.
Both alternatives are possible. The problem is we only have ex post reference from Ivanov that the people from the Institute were somehow punished. We don't know what was the official reason. Also, the English transcipt is a little confusing, but looks relevant enough to be looked into further.
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When the rescuers reached the tent they found the snow on the tent "as hard as wood" and cut the tent breaking through it. Which would explain the chunks. Why it was as hard as wood is more interesting, perhaps the temperature was raised before refreezing or some chemical process...
Wouldnt FREEZING suffice.
No the rescuers seem to be describing firn, but produced in atypical conditions - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firn
"Firn has the appearance of wet sugar, but has a hardness that makes it extremely resistant to shovelling.""Individual crystals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal) near the melting point are semiliquid and slick, allowing them to glide along other crystal planes and to fill in the spaces between them, increasing the ice's density"I'm not a snow expert kewl1 but sounds to me that the snow on the tent has been warmed before refreezing.
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When the rescuers reached the tent they found the snow on the tent "as hard as wood" and cut the tent breaking through it. Which would explain the chunks. Why it was as hard as wood is more interesting, perhaps the temperature was raised before refreezing or some chemical process...
Wouldnt FREEZING suffice.
No the rescuers seem to be describing firn, but produced in atypical conditions - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firn)
"Firn has the appearance of wet sugar, but has a hardness that makes it extremely resistant to shovelling.""Individual crystals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal) near the melting point are semiliquid and slick, allowing them to glide along other crystal planes and to fill in the spaces between them, increasing the ice's density"I'm not a snow expert kewl1 but sounds to me that the snow on the tent has been warmed before refreezing.
Looks like i actually meant neve - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9v%C3%A9
Like i said not an expert dance1
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Thank you all for the discussion and intelligent threads. Curiosity is alive and well. To follow up on the crystalline snow thread, it seems possible that the tent stove, the ambient temperature or an aerial incindiary would be a heat source. I dislike the stove for the reason that the tent interior roof would be scorched. A change in ambient temp is certainly possible, even likely. I struggle with the observation that the tent fly was buried so deeply in rough snow. Rough, not winddrift snow.
If I were in that situation and I experienced a distant flash and blast, I'd hunker down and wait. If I wait, I have enough time to put on a coat or boots. If that same detonation were very near me blowing chunks of snowy debris hitting the tent, I'd fear that the next blast would be in my lap. I would cut and run!
I understand that snow chunks on a pitched tent would fall off. Later, when the tent buckled under the weight of snow much renained. The material on the collapsed tent was partially cleared off by the rescuers. It seems that the sheer quantity of blocky snow surrounding the tent, if thrown off by the rescuers would necessitate them stomping all over the top of the collapsed tent, yes? Please advise. I still find reason to believe their collective misfortune came from the sky, delivered my a man made delivery system.
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When the rescuers reached the tent they found the snow on the tent "as hard as wood" and cut the tent breaking through it. Which would explain the chunks. Why it was as hard as wood is more interesting, perhaps the temperature was raised before refreezing or some chemical process...
Wouldnt FREEZING suffice.
No the rescuers seem to be describing firn, but produced in atypical conditions - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firn
"Firn has the appearance of wet sugar, but has a hardness that makes it extremely resistant to shovelling.""Individual crystals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal) near the melting point are semiliquid and slick, allowing them to glide along other crystal planes and to fill in the spaces between them, increasing the ice's density"I'm not a snow expert kewl1 but sounds to me that the snow on the tent has been warmed before refreezing.
So freezing wont suffice. Yet freezing is the most plausible answer. In fact it is most likely that the Tent was covered in snow and subject to wind, and you then have your chunky bits if thats what they are. Nothing complicated like you suggest with a chemical reaction.
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When the rescuers reached the tent they found the snow on the tent "as hard as wood" and cut the tent breaking through it. Which would explain the chunks. Why it was as hard as wood is more interesting, perhaps the temperature was raised before refreezing or some chemical process...
Wouldnt FREEZING suffice.
No the rescuers seem to be describing firn, but produced in atypical conditions - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firn)
"Firn has the appearance of wet sugar, but has a hardness that makes it extremely resistant to shovelling.""Individual crystals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal) near the melting point are semiliquid and slick, allowing them to glide along other crystal planes and to fill in the spaces between them, increasing the ice's density"I'm not a snow expert kewl1 but sounds to me that the snow on the tent has been warmed before refreezing.
Looks like i actually meant neve - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9v%C3%A9
Like i said not an expert dance1
Neve ! ? Thats even less plausible. You are going into very cold zones and higher altitudes with Neve.
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Thank you all for the discussion and intelligent threads. Curiosity is alive and well. To follow up on the crystalline snow thread, it seems possible that the tent stove, the ambient temperature or an aerial incindiary would be a heat source. I dislike the stove for the reason that the tent interior roof would be scorched. A change in ambient temp is certainly possible, even likely. I struggle with the observation that the tent fly was buried so deeply in rough snow. Rough, not winddrift snow.
If I were in that situation and I experienced a distant flash and blast, I'd hunker down and wait. If I wait, I have enough time to put on a coat or boots. If that same detonation were very near me blowing chunks of snowy debris hitting the tent, I'd fear that the next blast would be in my lap. I would cut and run!
I understand that snow chunks on a pitched tent would fall off. Later, when the tent buckled under the weight of snow much renained. The material on the collapsed tent was partially cleared off by the rescuers. It seems that the sheer quantity of blocky snow surrounding the tent, if thrown off by the rescuers would necessitate them stomping all over the top of the collapsed tent, yes? Please advise. I still find reason to believe their collective misfortune came from the sky, delivered my a man made delivery system.
The snow accumulated on the tent assisted by winds and freezing temperatures. Nothing complicated in the most plausible reason. There was no heat or blast from anything at the Tent.
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Thank you all for the discussion and intelligent threads. Curiosity is alive and well. To follow up on the crystalline snow thread, it seems possible that the tent stove, the ambient temperature or an aerial incindiary would be a heat source. I dislike the stove for the reason that the tent interior roof would be scorched. A change in ambient temp is certainly possible, even likely. I struggle with the observation that the tent fly was buried so deeply in rough snow. Rough, not winddrift snow.
If I were in that situation and I experienced a distant flash and blast, I'd hunker down and wait. If I wait, I have enough time to put on a coat or boots. If that same detonation were very near me blowing chunks of snowy debris hitting the tent, I'd fear that the next blast would be in my lap. I would cut and run!
I understand that snow chunks on a pitched tent would fall off. Later, when the tent buckled under the weight of snow much renained. The material on the collapsed tent was partially cleared off by the rescuers. It seems that the sheer quantity of blocky snow surrounding the tent, if thrown off by the rescuers would necessitate them stomping all over the top of the collapsed tent, yes? Please advise. I still find reason to believe their collective misfortune came from the sky, delivered my a man made delivery system.
The rescue team dug a trench along the base of the tent (i don't know why but they did) and of course the snow on the tent was very hard so a good case for some blocks lying around. The stove wasn't used that night. The tent was pitched in it's low profile mode preventing the stove being used. That they had elected (i don't entertain the idea that they were lost) to camp on the ridge (without using the stove) instead of the forest (with using the stove) 800m away clearly indicates imo that they had a purpose for being there. Imo that purpose was to photograph the lightshow on the western ridge of which only Semyon's photos have reached us because they were missed in the confiscation that took place.
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The snow accumulated on the tent assisted by winds and freezing temperatures. Nothing complicated in the most plausible reason. There was no heat or blast from anything at the Tent.
One of us isn't getting it. The bodies were found under fresh snow that was SOFT yes? But the rescuers said that the area around the tent and on it was very HARD yes? Now ignoring the disputed hot spot and the footprints, the only way i know of to turn wind drift into wood in three weeks is to raise it's temperature and refreeze it. Koptelov in his interview states that they discussed this at the time. So the only natural way to do this is with the sun yes. But this is the north east slope in Siberia in Feb.
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Thank you all for the discussion and intelligent threads. Curiosity is alive and well. To follow up on the crystalline snow thread, it seems possible that the tent stove, the ambient temperature or an aerial incindiary would be a heat source. I dislike the stove for the reason that the tent interior roof would be scorched. A change in ambient temp is certainly possible, even likely. I struggle with the observation that the tent fly was buried so deeply in rough snow. Rough, not winddrift snow.
If I were in that situation and I experienced a distant flash and blast, I'd hunker down and wait. If I wait, I have enough time to put on a coat or boots. If that same detonation were very near me blowing chunks of snowy debris hitting the tent, I'd fear that the next blast would be in my lap. I would cut and run!
I understand that snow chunks on a pitched tent would fall off. Later, when the tent buckled under the weight of snow much renained. The material on the collapsed tent was partially cleared off by the rescuers. It seems that the sheer quantity of blocky snow surrounding the tent, if thrown off by the rescuers would necessitate them stomping all over the top of the collapsed tent, yes? Please advise. I still find reason to believe their collective misfortune came from the sky, delivered my a man made delivery system.
The rescue team dug a trench along the base of the tent (i don't know why but they did) and of course the snow on the tent was very hard so a good case for some blocks lying around. The stove wasn't used that night. The tent was pitched in it's low profile mode preventing the stove being used. That they had elected (i don't entertain the idea that they were lost) to camp on the ridge (without using the stove) instead of the forest (with using the stove) 800m away clearly indicates imo that they had a purpose for being there. Imo that purpose was to photograph the lightshow on the western ridge of which only Semyon's photos have reached us because they were missed in the confiscation that took place.
But would they really have put themselves in an exposed location in serious weather conditions just to take photos of some lights in the sky. I wouldnt have done that. and Iam sure many experienced outdoors people would say the same.
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The snow accumulated on the tent assisted by winds and freezing temperatures. Nothing complicated in the most plausible reason. There was no heat or blast from anything at the Tent.
One of us isn't getting it. The bodies were found under fresh snow that was SOFT yes? But the rescuers said that the area around the tent and on it was very HARD yes? Now ignoring the disputed hot spot and the footprints, the only way i know of to turn wind drift into wood in three weeks is to raise it's temperature and refreeze it. Koptelov in his interview states that they discussed this at the time. So the only natural way to do this is with the sun yes. But this is the north east slope in Siberia in Feb.
Yes thats possible but there are other possible explanations. We dont know the weather conditions for all the time that the Tent was in its position before it was found. Weather can change quickly and dramatically any where in the World.
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The snow accumulated on the tent assisted by winds and freezing temperatures. Nothing complicated in the most plausible reason. There was no heat or blast from anything at the Tent.
One of us isn't getting it. The bodies were found under fresh snow that was SOFT yes? But the rescuers said that the area around the tent and on it was very HARD yes? Now ignoring the disputed hot spot and the footprints, the only way i know of to turn wind drift into wood in three weeks is to raise it's temperature and refreeze it. Koptelov in his interview states that they discussed this at the time. So the only natural way to do this is with the sun yes. But this is the north east slope in Siberia in Feb.
Yes thats possible but there are other possible explanations. We dont know the weather conditions for all the time that the Tent was in its position before it was found. Weather can change quickly and dramatically any where in the World.
Thank you all for the discussion and intelligent threads. Curiosity is alive and well. To follow up on the crystalline snow thread, it seems possible that the tent stove, the ambient temperature or an aerial incindiary would be a heat source. I dislike the stove for the reason that the tent interior roof would be scorched. A change in ambient temp is certainly possible, even likely. I struggle with the observation that the tent fly was buried so deeply in rough snow. Rough, not winddrift snow.
If I were in that situation and I experienced a distant flash and blast, I'd hunker down and wait. If I wait, I have enough time to put on a coat or boots. If that same detonation were very near me blowing chunks of snowy debris hitting the tent, I'd fear that the next blast would be in my lap. I would cut and run!
I understand that snow chunks on a pitched tent would fall off. Later, when the tent buckled under the weight of snow much renained. The material on the collapsed tent was partially cleared off by the rescuers. It seems that the sheer quantity of blocky snow surrounding the tent, if thrown off by the rescuers would necessitate them stomping all over the top of the collapsed tent, yes? Please advise. I still find reason to believe their collective misfortune came from the sky, delivered my a man made delivery system.
The rescue team dug a trench along the base of the tent (i don't know why but they did) and of course the snow on the tent was very hard so a good case for some blocks lying around. The stove wasn't used that night. The tent was pitched in it's low profile mode preventing the stove being used. That they had elected (i don't entertain the idea that they were lost) to camp on the ridge (without using the stove) instead of the forest (with using the stove) 800m away clearly indicates imo that they had a purpose for being there. Imo that purpose was to photograph the lightshow on the western ridge of which only Semyon's photos have reached us because they were missed in the confiscation that took place.
But would they really have put themselves in an exposed location in serious weather conditions just to take photos of some lights in the sky. I wouldnt have done that. and Iam sure many experienced outdoors people would say the same.
Igor's last entry in the diary considered exactly your point.
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Yes thats possible but there are other possible explanations. We dont know the weather conditions for all the time that the Tent was in its position before it was found. Weather can change quickly and dramatically any where in the World.
Baby it's cold outside (in Siberia).
Corrie glaciers form in the Urals from 2 degrees further north - http://hydrologie.org/redbooks/a054/054042.pdf
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Well its a good point you make. Basically you are saying that the Authorities were wrong to let the Dyatlov Group go on the ROUTE that they did. However its also possible that the Authorities made the right decision but something so profound happened that the Higher Authorities had to find a cover.
Both alternatives are possible. The problem is we only have ex post reference from Ivanov that the people from the Institute were somehow punished. We don't know what was the official reason. Also, the English transcipt is a little confusing, but looks relevant enough to be looked into further.
O`K. That can convince you that of Russian transcription all in the same way as in the English?
I can add to it, the punishment reason was that was necessary as that react on that indignation which was in the Sverdlovsk city at that time. Punishment was formal though had unpleasant parts for those whom in the biggest degree have punished. Very quickly all has been overcome also all people have returned on former positions. That "guilty" have wasted some time for progress was negative only and have spent many emotions and “nervous energy” for overcoming of these troubles.
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O`K. That can convince you that of Russian transcription all in the same way as in the English?
I can add to it, the punishment reason was that was necessary as that react on that indignation which was in the Sverdlovsk city at that time. Punishment was formal though had unpleasant parts for those whom in the biggest degree have punished. Very quickly all has been overcome also all people have returned on former positions. That "guilty" have wasted some time for progress was negative only and have spent many emotions and “nervous energy” for overcoming of these troubles.
Thank you for clarification. Too bad we do not have their testimonies about the case or the at least who gave the order for those formal punishments.
EDIT: And more importantly, who or which department was in charge of introduction the exclusion zone for next 3 years in the area.
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Yes thats possible but there are other possible explanations. We dont know the weather conditions for all the time that the Tent was in its position before it was found. Weather can change quickly and dramatically any where in the World.
Baby it's cold outside (in Siberia).
Corrie glaciers form in the Urals from 2 degrees further north - http://hydrologie.org/redbooks/a054/054042.pdf
So what is it that you are suggesting ! ? GLACIERS at The Dyatlov Pass. New one on me.
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O`K. That can convince you that of Russian transcription all in the same way as in the English?
I can add to it, the punishment reason was that was necessary as that react on that indignation which was in the Sverdlovsk city at that time. Punishment was formal though had unpleasant parts for those whom in the biggest degree have punished. Very quickly all has been overcome also all people have returned on former positions. That "guilty" have wasted some time for progress was negative only and have spent many emotions and “nervous energy” for overcoming of these troubles.
Thank you for clarification. Too bad we do not have their testimonies about the case or the at least who gave the order for those formal punishments.
EDIT: And more importantly, who or which department was in charge of introduction the exclusion zone for next 3 years in the area.
More good points. Seems like it wasnt only the local Admin that wasnt up to scratch. Higher up as well had / have some explaining to do. But like I have said, maybe the Higher Authority had no choice but to put the lid on the matter and close the Dyatlov Case down. Today we may say its; NOT IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST TO DISCLOSE ANY MORE INFORMATION. So it will be very interesting to see the outcome of this NEW INVESTIGATION by todays Authorities.
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Yes thats possible but there are other possible explanations. We dont know the weather conditions for all the time that the Tent was in its position before it was found. Weather can change quickly and dramatically any where in the World.
Baby it's cold outside (in Siberia).
Corrie glaciers form in the Urals from 2 degrees further north - http://hydrologie.org/redbooks/a054/054042.pdf (http://hydrologie.org/redbooks/a054/054042.pdf)
So what is it that you are suggesting ! ? GLACIERS at The Dyatlov Pass. New one on me.
You said - "Thats even less plausible. You are going into very cold zones and higher altitudes with Neve."Not if the Urals have corrie glaciers. It's just that cold...
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Yes thats possible but there are other possible explanations. We dont know the weather conditions for all the time that the Tent was in its position before it was found. Weather can change quickly and dramatically any where in the World.
Baby it's cold outside (in Siberia).
Corrie glaciers form in the Urals from 2 degrees further north - http://hydrologie.org/redbooks/a054/054042.pdf (http://hydrologie.org/redbooks/a054/054042.pdf)
So what is it that you are suggesting ! ? GLACIERS at The Dyatlov Pass. New one on me.
You said - "Thats even less plausible. You are going into very cold zones and higher altitudes with Neve."Not if the Urals have corrie glaciers. It's just that cold...
But are there any GLACIERS in the Dyatlov pass area ! ?
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I believe the snow, coarse or fine, is a symptom, not a cause for the evacuation. They left with footprints diverging in the cold black night. Later, they regroup and make the long trek to the woods.To me, diverging footprints says," everyone for themselves,," Panic drove them from the tent. Rational minds decide to travel to the trees as a group. No one is brave/ foolhardy enough to go back. The threat had to be continuous.
However, something that was mentioned here sent me along a different tact. If the tent was ripped by the rescue party and/ or the snow mass, then the hikers would have left an intact camp. Question, is there any sense in the notion that hubris (pride) played a role? Could it be that Igor tasked his companions to make a survival trek to the woods and back, at night in undressed fashion just so that their grade 3 certification meant something more? I understand that the majority of the trip was by vehicle, with little actual hiking. Could they have gotten so full of themselves as to gamble with the elements for the sake of pride?
Even smart people succumb to peer pressure. This being said, on the face of the matter everyone in the forum seems to like the group cutting themselves from the tent. To me, only an aerial threat would make sane people cut their tent, scatter, regroup and March 5,280 feet away from their coats and boots. You cant reason with a jet,nor the munitions. Please advise!
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I believe the snow, coarse or fine, is a symptom, not a cause for the evacuation. They left with footprints diverging in the cold black night. Later, they regroup and make the long trek to the woods.To me, diverging footprints says," everyone for themselves,," Panic drove them from the tent. Rational minds decide to travel to the trees as a group. No one is brave/ foolhardy enough to go back. The threat had to be continuous.
However, something that was mentioned here sent me along a different tact. If the tent was ripped by the rescue party and/ or the snow mass, then the hikers would have left an intact camp. Question, is there any sense in the notion that hubris (pride) played a role? Could it be that Igor tasked his companions to make a survival trek to the woods and back, at night in undressed fashion just so that their grade 3 certification meant something more? I understand that the majority of the trip was by vehicle, with little actual hiking. Could they have gotten so full of themselves as to gamble with the elements for the sake of pride?
Even smart people succumb to peer pressure. This being said, on the face of the matter everyone in the forum seems to like the group cutting themselves from the tent. To me, only an aerial threat would make sane people cut their tent, scatter, regroup and March 5,280 feet away from their coats and boots. You cant reason with a jet,nor the munitions. Please advise!
The Dyatlov Group were experienced outdoors people. It is highly unlikely that they would risk their lives in a very remote place just to satisfy some Grade Certificate. The weather became severe. Not everyone in this Forum subscribes to the Tent cutting theory or theories. Iam not convinced that the Tent was cut from the inside. The photos we have been shown of the Tent with the cuts or tears do not prove anything. The thing that caused the Group to abandon their SHELTER is obviously top of the list for this mystery. It neednt be an aerial threat it could be a land threat.
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I believe the snow, coarse or fine, is a symptom, not a cause for the evacuation. They left with footprints diverging in the cold black night. Later, they regroup and make the long trek to the woods.To me, diverging footprints says," everyone for themselves,," Panic drove them from the tent. Rational minds decide to travel to the trees as a group. No one is brave/ foolhardy enough to go back. The threat had to be continuous.
However, something that was mentioned here sent me along a different tact. If the tent was ripped by the rescue party and/ or the snow mass, then the hikers would have left an intact camp. Question, is there any sense in the notion that hubris (pride) played a role? Could it be that Igor tasked his companions to make a survival trek to the woods and back, at night in undressed fashion just so that their grade 3 certification meant something more? I understand that the majority of the trip was by vehicle, with little actual hiking. Could they have gotten so full of themselves as to gamble with the elements for the sake of pride?
Even smart people succumb to peer pressure. This being said, on the face of the matter everyone in the forum seems to like the group cutting themselves from the tent. To me, only an aerial threat would make sane people cut their tent, scatter, regroup and March 5,280 feet away from their coats and boots. You cant reason with a jet,nor the munitions. Please advise!
I think leaving without shoes and outdoor gear, especially when you look at the two Yuris would be more of a suicide mission than a level 3 challenge. It wouldn't make sense IMO.
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I believe the snow, coarse or fine, is a symptom, not a cause for the evacuation. They left with footprints diverging in the cold black night. Later, they regroup and make the long trek to the woods.To me, diverging footprints says," everyone for themselves,," Panic drove them from the tent. Rational minds decide to travel to the trees as a group. No one is brave/ foolhardy enough to go back. The threat had to be continuous.
However, something that was mentioned here sent me along a different tact. If the tent was ripped by the rescue party and/ or the snow mass, then the hikers would have left an intact camp. Question, is there any sense in the notion that hubris (pride) played a role? Could it be that Igor tasked his companions to make a survival trek to the woods and back, at night in undressed fashion just so that their grade 3 certification meant something more? I understand that the majority of the trip was by vehicle, with little actual hiking. Could they have gotten so full of themselves as to gamble with the elements for the sake of pride?
Even smart people succumb to peer pressure. This being said, on the face of the matter everyone in the forum seems to like the group cutting themselves from the tent. To me, only an aerial threat would make sane people cut their tent, scatter, regroup and March 5,280 feet away from their coats and boots. You cant reason with a jet,nor the munitions. Please advise!
I think leaving without shoes and outdoor gear, especially when you look at the two Yuris would be more of a suicide mission than a level 3 challenge. It wouldn't make sense IMO.
Absolutely, suicide mission would sound about right if any one went out into the open not fully clothed and equipped and walked a mile in those conditions. But at least all these theories are worth bringing up so we can truly narrow it down.
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I believe the snow, coarse or fine, is a symptom, not a cause for the evacuation. They left with footprints diverging in the cold black night. Later, they regroup and make the long trek to the woods.To me, diverging footprints says," everyone for themselves,," Panic drove them from the tent. Rational minds decide to travel to the trees as a group. No one is brave/ foolhardy enough to go back. The threat had to be continuous.
However, something that was mentioned here sent me along a different tact. If the tent was ripped by the rescue party and/ or the snow mass, then the hikers would have left an intact camp. Question, is there any sense in the notion that hubris (pride) played a role? Could it be that Igor tasked his companions to make a survival trek to the woods and back, at night in undressed fashion just so that their grade 3 certification meant something more? I understand that the majority of the trip was by vehicle, with little actual hiking. Could they have gotten so full of themselves as to gamble with the elements for the sake of pride?
Even smart people succumb to peer pressure. This being said, on the face of the matter everyone in the forum seems to like the group cutting themselves from the tent. To me, only an aerial threat would make sane people cut their tent, scatter, regroup and March 5,280 feet away from their coats and boots. You cant reason with a jet,nor the munitions. Please advise!
I think leaving without shoes and outdoor gear, especially when you look at the two Yuris would be more of a suicide mission than a level 3 challenge. It wouldn't make sense IMO.
Absolutely, suicide mission would sound about right if any one went out into the open not fully clothed and equipped and walked a mile in those conditions. But at least all these theories are worth bringing up so we can truly narrow it down.
Agree. It's right to raise any possible options for discussion. We need lateral thinking?
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All behavior is motivated. What motivates group hysteria, or group panic? I've seen enough sinking ship movies to know that the overwhelming prospect of death is compelling. I also know in those same movies that individual heroisms occur. A heroism is actually an individua'l's decision at some deep level that ,"I can beat the odds".
When the expedition left the tent, all were of the same mindset, namely nobody was going to be a hero, nobody was going to beat the odds. Of all the possible scenarios, only an unreasoning overwhelming force suffices. I still hold to aerial assault, unintentional aerial assault..
Back to the statement of motivation, and with an appreciative nod to lateral thinking, can we make an argument that instead of being pushed from the tent, they were drawn out instead? The reward would be incredible, given what they left behind. Can you imagine anything that would actually draw them away from camp voluntarily?
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Daily Mail: Passengers scramble to safety after flight from China to LA is forced to make emergency landing.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6772417/Passengers-scramble-safety-flight-China-LA-forced-make-emergency-landing.html
This is what it takes to get people out of a tent. Can you forge a connection to Soviet military exercises?
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Daily Mail: Passengers scramble to safety after flight from China to LA is forced to make emergency landing.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6772417/Passengers-scramble-safety-flight-China-LA-forced-make-emergency-landing.html
This is what it takes to get people out of a tent. Can you forge a connection to Soviet military exercises?
There is no comparison ! ? The people in the plane are in a completely different situation. The people in the Tent are not in a Tent that may EXPLODE.