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Author Topic: Footprints  (Read 5360 times)

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December 11, 2020, 12:08:06 PM
Reply #30
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sarapuk

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Modest enough to create a third degree burn?

Well is that going to cause them all to abandon their Tent and walk to their deaths.
DB
 

December 11, 2020, 12:11:42 PM
Reply #31
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sarapuk

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High voltage build up on the tent? 

That could do it. For conventional lightning to find a path to earth across (say) a thousand feet of insulating air requires very high electrical potential, which is then highly destructive. Or ball lightning forming inside the tent like in the other Russian mountaineering case but in this case discharging into bodies.

But there wasnt much room inside that Tent. Surely a Ball Lightning Event would cause much damage to people and objects including the Tent. But there was no traces of any such damage.
DB
 

December 11, 2020, 12:16:36 PM
Reply #32
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Nigel Evans


Modest enough to create a third degree burn?

Well is that going to cause them all to abandon their Tent and walk to their deaths.


Yuri D's injuries are interesting here, as if current passed between his head and fingers. As if he was crawling trying to reach things in the tent perhaps. There are  large sections of the tent cut away as if people were attempting to retrieve stuff.
 

December 11, 2020, 12:19:17 PM
Reply #33
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Nigel Evans



High voltage build up on the tent? 

That could do it. For conventional lightning to find a path to earth across (say) a thousand feet of insulating air requires very high electrical potential, which is then highly destructive. Or ball lightning forming inside the tent like in the other Russian mountaineering case but in this case discharging into bodies.

But there wasnt much room inside that Tent. Surely a Ball Lightning Event would cause much damage to people and objects including the Tent. But there was no traces of any such damage.


No they can vary from completely harmless to extremely deadly. So it's easy to propose a fit. The key factors are the burns including Yuri D.
 

December 11, 2020, 02:43:16 PM
Reply #34
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Star man

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High voltage build up on the tent? 

That could do it. For conventional lightning to find a path to earth across (say) a thousand feet of insulating air requires very high electrical potential, which is then highly destructive. Or ball lightning forming inside the tent like in the other Russian mountaineering case but in this case discharging into bodies.

It may have been possible to build up some static electricity on the tent from the dry air flowing over the tent, but its hard to see how one could get a significant electric shock from it.  A motor vehicle with a reasonable surface area and insulated from the ground can build up a static charge and  cause a minor electric shock.  But its also metal and and electricity can flow quickly around it.  The tent would behave more like a charged rubber party balloon.   Holding charge but not delivering a large shock.  If the tent was charged, then maybe it  could have induced a polarised charge on the stove, but again, can only see this generating a modest electric discharge.  It is a difficult one for me to see.  Its not at the top of my list, but hey, I think something unusual happened that night.

Geological events can generate electrical discharges, but I dont think there were any reports of seismic activity?

Regards

Star man
 

December 11, 2020, 04:00:27 PM
Reply #35
Offline

Nigel Evans



High voltage build up on the tent? 

That could do it. For conventional lightning to find a path to earth across (say) a thousand feet of insulating air requires very high electrical potential, which is then highly destructive. Or ball lightning forming inside the tent like in the other Russian mountaineering case but in this case discharging into bodies.

It may have been possible to build up some static electricity on the tent from the dry air flowing over the tent, but its hard to see how one could get a significant electric shock from it.  A motor vehicle with a reasonable surface area and insulated from the ground can build up a static charge and  cause a minor electric shock.  But its also metal and and electricity can flow quickly around it.  The tent would behave more like a charged rubber party balloon.   Holding charge but not delivering a large shock.  If the tent was charged, then maybe it  could have induced a polarised charge on the stove, but again, can only see this generating a modest electric discharge.  It is a difficult one for me to see.  Its not at the top of my list, but hey, I think something unusual happened that night.

Geological events can generate electrical discharges, but I dont think there were any reports of seismic activity?

Regards

Star man


No i'm thinking that they were "in the highly charged clouds" which gave the whole (damp) tent a high voltage which suddenly found a path though Yuri(s) creating burns. This is to try and explain why no burning of the fabric or tent pole (which might have split with heat). Plus the tent would have been covered with sub zero snow which could have prevented burning. Plus the energy required to heat the water content of the canvas to steam.
 

December 12, 2020, 11:28:54 AM
Reply #36
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sarapuk

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Modest enough to create a third degree burn?

Well is that going to cause them all to abandon their Tent and walk to their deaths.


Yuri D's injuries are interesting here, as if current passed between his head and fingers. As if he was crawling trying to reach things in the tent perhaps. There are  large sections of the tent cut away as if people were attempting to retrieve stuff.

Well no bodies were found near the Tent. And the only people near or in the Tent at the time of the Event were the Dyatlov Group, so why were they trying to retrieve stuff by ruining the Tent ! ?
DB
 

December 12, 2020, 11:32:13 AM
Reply #37
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient

High voltage build up on the tent? 

That could do it. For conventional lightning to find a path to earth across (say) a thousand feet of insulating air requires very high electrical potential, which is then highly destructive. Or ball lightning forming inside the tent like in the other Russian mountaineering case but in this case discharging into bodies.

But there wasnt much room inside that Tent. Surely a Ball Lightning Event would cause much damage to people and objects including the Tent. But there was no traces of any such damage.


No they can vary from completely harmless to extremely deadly. So it's easy to propose a fit. The key factors are the burns including Yuri D.

So you are saying that the Ball Lightning fitted into the Tent and caused some injury but no damage to the Tent. Still doesnt explain why the Dyatlov Group abandoned their Tent, and fled not properly dressed.
DB
 

December 12, 2020, 11:36:05 AM
Reply #38
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient

High voltage build up on the tent? 

That could do it. For conventional lightning to find a path to earth across (say) a thousand feet of insulating air requires very high electrical potential, which is then highly destructive. Or ball lightning forming inside the tent like in the other Russian mountaineering case but in this case discharging into bodies.

It may have been possible to build up some static electricity on the tent from the dry air flowing over the tent, but its hard to see how one could get a significant electric shock from it.  A motor vehicle with a reasonable surface area and insulated from the ground can build up a static charge and  cause a minor electric shock.  But its also metal and and electricity can flow quickly around it.  The tent would behave more like a charged rubber party balloon.   Holding charge but not delivering a large shock.  If the tent was charged, then maybe it  could have induced a polarised charge on the stove, but again, can only see this generating a modest electric discharge.  It is a difficult one for me to see.  Its not at the top of my list, but hey, I think something unusual happened that night.

Geological events can generate electrical discharges, but I dont think there were any reports of seismic activity?

Regards

Star man


No i'm thinking that they were "in the highly charged clouds" which gave the whole (damp) tent a high voltage which suddenly found a path though Yuri(s) creating burns. This is to try and explain why no burning of the fabric or tent pole (which might have split with heat). Plus the tent would have been covered with sub zero snow which could have prevented burning. Plus the energy required to heat the water content of the canvas to steam.

So one person is injured. Not a reason to abandon the Tent. Even if they were all injured they wouldnt just flee down the Mountainside without proper clothing or provisions.
DB
 

December 12, 2020, 12:46:35 PM
Reply #39
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Nigel Evans



So one person is injured. Not a reason to abandon the Tent. Even if they were all injured they wouldnt just flee down the Mountainside without proper clothing or provisions.
As already suggested, YuriD's injuries could be interpreted as as electricity passing between his head and his hands. As if he was crawling. Trying to retrieve stuff?
 

December 12, 2020, 01:00:49 PM
Reply #40

eurocentric

Guest
Had the 2 Yuris been struck by lightning at the tent then Yuri K would be unable to walk unaided, dragging his left foot (both his lower leg and foot were affected, including one charred toe) because the muscles and nerves would be damaged by the third-degree burns, not just the skin suface. The evidence of his struggle to walk would be visible in the footprints. Yuri D would likely be having blackouts and may even have been temporarily blinded.

With some of them injured they wouldn't leave without taking their first-aid kit, not just the clothing, blankets and an axe for a fire they needed to survive. The biggest killer after such an event would be shock, so they are going to need to keep their casualties warm.
 
The most common cause of burns is fire, and with Yuri K & Yuri D found next to a fire that would seem the most probable cause. They would be placed, or have placed themselves, as close to the fire as possible, but it would be impossible for the others to maintain a sufficient fire without an axe, so as it died down and they desperately foraged for wood under snow or climbed trees to cut thinner branches with knives or break them off, they wouldn't notice when the two Yuris moved too near the fire/embers, when becoming unconscious or during the agonal stages of hypothermia. They would not scream out in pain while unconscious, that would happen if they regained it.

Yuri D was the tallest, and it was said the tallest (presumably largest foot size and deepest/heaviest depressions made in the snow) walked behind the rest down the pass. Had he been injured I'd expect him to be placed in view of the others and needing guiding the whole way, otherwise if he had this injury and collapsed behind them it might be 200 yards before anyone noticed. By walking last he may have taken the brunt of the windchill, depending on wind direction, his largest skin surface area absorbing more of the cold while part-dressed.

If Yuri K was photographing through the tent flue hole, which I think perfectly possible and also explains the circular black masking on the left of Frame 34, then that places him nearest the tent flap, a draughty position in an unheated tent with a button-up flap and a hole above, meaning he was probably already the coldest when they set off, so that by the time he reached the cedar he was in a bad way.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 02:47:35 PM by eurocentric »
 

December 12, 2020, 04:01:59 PM
Reply #41
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Nigel Evans


Had the 2 Yuris been struck by lightning at the tent then Yuri K would be unable to walk unaided, dragging his left foot (both his lower leg and foot were affected, including one charred toe) because the muscles and nerves would be damaged by the third-degree burns, not just the skin suface. The evidence of his struggle to walk would be visible in the footprints.

 
 

December 13, 2020, 02:48:06 PM
Reply #42
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Jean Daniel Reuss


When I subscribed to this forum (November 03, 2019), I hoped that we would discover rare and exciting physical phenomena.

  But now I am disappointed and disillusioned because Eduard Tumanov certainly did not make a mistake about the nature of injuries caused by blunt objects handled by determined humans being.
Something only quite banal and ordinary happened to Dyatlov's group.
  In short, it was an attack partially of a terrorist nature, easily explicable by the history of the USSR, as has occurred in thousands and thousands of others cases around the world since February 2, 1959.
I intend to write more detailed and nuanced explanations in the Topic "Altercation on the pass" which is a more suitable than the Topic "Murdered", but it is time consuming....
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.30

 By imitating Per Inge Oestmoen I would say that : do I know for sure ? No. The evidence we have (essentially thanks to Dyatlov.com), would not hold up in any court because the evidence that the nine were killed still does not prove the exact identity of the murderers. We shall not know with certainty until someone who knows (and who has the willingness to tell) the whole truth.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Part 1
Traces of urine do not bring any useful information.
 

There is no relationship between these two trace formation mechanisms :

   1° - the footprints result from the settling of the snow under the weight of the body.
   2° - traces of urine are produced by the flow of a liquid initially at 37°C, aqueous and colored, which quickly seeps into the porous snow and transforms into an ice column of irregular shape.

So the traces of urine could have been made on 1 or 2 February either by the 9 hikers, or by the 3 or 4 attackers, or even by other unknown visitors between February 2 and February 26.
 
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Part 2
Among the raised footprints there is an unexplained trace of a heel shoe.
 

§-1- There are at least 2 other Topics on the same subject.

seniorsupport : Theories Discussion > General Discussion > Footprints ==> February 01, 2018, 11:46:21 AM
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=105.0      (+ 26 Replies or Posts up to 12/12/2020)

Teddy : Theories Discussion > General Discussion > Experiment with raised tracks ==>  April 11, 2020, 12:03:49 AM
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=614.0       (+ 4 Replies or Posts up to 12/12/2020)

§-2- I believe we can conclude that :

Between the tent and the cedar, in an area that is difficult to evaluate precisely, there were raised footprints more or less aligned. These were almost certainly the footprints left by the hikers.

§-3- According to "Injuries, clothing and belongings to Dyatlov group".
https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries?filter_page=2&rbid=18461

  Slobodin  : " black felt boot .. ".
  Thibeaux-Brignolle : " Almost new gray felt boots  .. ".
  Zolotaryov Black : " quilted boots without soles (burki) .. ".
  The others six wore different kinds of socks.



Consequently, how can this heel footprint be explained ?


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Part 3
The lack of visible tracks on February 26th does not prove the absence of human presence on February 2nd.
 

  §-1- From North-2 to the tent

Generally speaking, in order to find and reach skiers who are somewhere, following the trail that they have left, the snow is already packed, (compacted), by their passage and there is less effort to be made to advance quickly.
By following the trail it is certain that the goal will be at the end and there is no more wasting time with hesitations and stopping to find the right itinerary. As a result :

   ••• To reach from North-2 to the tent on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl on the 1 st of February the attackers carefully followed the trail left by the 9 hikers.
   ••• To return from the tent to North-2 on February 2, the victorious attackers carefully followed the trail left during the outward journey by then 12 skiers.


"...On February 25 Boris Slobtsov and his group finally discovered the trail of skis that he assumed to be that of Dyatlov...." ( in the Auspiya valley near the pass).
"...26.02 in the evening a report was received from Slobtsov that Dyatlov group tent was found with all the items, food and skis..."
On 25 February, for the rescuers, the short trail between the upper Auspiya valley and the tent had therefore been erased by the bad weather.

  •  But on 1 February this trail between the upper Auspiya valley and the tent was still clearly visible to the attackers.

  §-2-   On the slope of the Kholat Syakhl.

   a) The attackers who pursued the hikers on 1 February from North-2, stayed on their skis on the slope after the attack on the tent, allowing them to move a little faster than the badly-shod hikers.
It was only afterwards, in the Cedar and the Den area, that the attackers took off their skis to fight and defeat the hikers in brief, violent hand-to-hand combats.

   b) During February in the Urals, according to Ivan Rempel, there are usually a few days when the wind blows very strongly and thus erases the footprints and the ski trails, except in some localized areas where small mounds of "raised tracks" are formed which remain for a long time.

Ivan Rempel : "...I expressed my opinion that in wintertime it is dangerous to go along the Ural ridge because there are... and besides there are strong winds raging, people have been hurt. I told them my concern because I know this area of the Ural range from the words of local resident..."

  §-3- In the Cedar and the Den area I agree with the argument of :

eurocentric (Reply #10) : "IMO a third party could only conceivably be involved at the cedar and ravine, because in those areas the later snowfall would cover their tracks, it would tend to collect at lower elevation rather than be wind scoured, and we know what fell lower down the pass from the way it covered 3 bodies under approximately 2ft of snow in the weeks before the recovery team found them and how the hiker tracks disappeared halfway to the forest. So Mother Nature would erase half the crime scene...."

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Part 4
Recalls of some few arguments in favour of the hypothesis "Altercation on the pass".
 

  §-1-   Miskra has found the most likely explanation for leaving the tent without the 3 short-handled axes and almost without clothes, it is
Mishka: General Discussion/Who cut open the tent? ==> August 10, 2020, 12:04:43 AM Reply #16
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=690.msg10439#msg10439

"... they went out to see what was going on. and the surprise .... police or military or other you want . they were asked to leave the tent immediately because the place was in danger and had to leave the tent immediately and without waiting without shoes without clothing we don't care OUT  NOW !!!!........... ""
Indeed, trickery, deception, ruse is an (immoral) process both simple and effective which is sometimes used in war (cf. The Trojan Horse) and more often in maritime piracy to climb aboard a small boat and seize it by killing the crew.
         •  See also, part 1 : https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=744.msg11337#msg11337

  §-2- Why the contents of the tent were not stolen by the attackers.
    An asset of the attackers was surprise and speed. The attackers did not want to load themselves without heavy bags and they wanted to return quickly to North-2 and Vizhay to rest.
    The contents of the tent were not very valuable: some dirty old clothes, unappetizing food, used short-handled axes, an unsaleable stove....
    It seems that the attackers only brought 1 or 2 cameras, which may have weighed around 600 grams (check it out).

  §-3- Tent cuts were made by the attackers on the morning of February 2, after their victory, just before leaving back to North-2.
   It does not matter what the exact reasons for this vandalism (of the tent damage) were.
    •••     In my opinion, they were gestures of no practical use. It was to relieve the intense nervous tension caused by the night's hard fighting, which had been long and difficult for the attackers. (and deadly for the hikers).
    •••     According to Aleks Kandr, the purpose of the openings was to improve the light inside the tent because the canvas was thick and the inside of the tent remained relatively dark during the day.

  §-4- The explanation of the DPI is made artificially difficult because propagandists in the pay of formerly Nikita Krushchev and now of Vladimir Putin, continue to propagate seductive false leads that lead more than one commentator into extravagant logical dead ends.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

December 14, 2020, 11:16:24 PM
Reply #43
Offline

Monika


Hello

For me, the best theory of all about Dyatlov´s incident:

https://sites.google.com/site/mezoelectric/dyatlov-pass-incident-1

As I said in previous posts, what if e.g. the electric discharge on the tent poles create something as a closed electric circle (on the tent, even in close proximity to the tent) and the Dyatlovs could not enter the tent to take clothes and shoes? This would also explain why they could not get to their things in the tent for a long time.

The article above mentioned seems to me very credible  read1.
 

December 15, 2020, 01:43:21 PM
Reply #44
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hello

For me, the best theory of all about Dyatlov´s incident:

https://sites.google.com/site/mezoelectric/dyatlov-pass-incident-1

As I said in previous posts, what if e.g. the electric discharge on the tent poles create something as a closed electric circle (on the tent, even in close proximity to the tent) and the Dyatlovs could not enter the tent to take clothes and shoes? This would also explain why they could not get to their things in the tent for a long time.

The article above mentioned seems to me very credible  read1.

I think many Researchers think that there was some kind of 'Electrical Event'. But its generally believed that all or most of the Dyatlov Group were already in the Tent when the first 'Event' occurred.
DB
 

December 17, 2020, 03:18:26 AM
Reply #45
Offline

Monika


Hello

For me, the best theory of all about Dyatlov´s incident:

https://sites.google.com/site/mezoelectric/dyatlov-pass-incident-1

As I said in previous posts, what if e.g. the electric discharge on the tent poles create something as a closed electric circle (on the tent, even in close proximity to the tent) and the Dyatlovs could not enter the tent to take clothes and shoes? This would also explain why they could not get to their things in the tent for a long time.

The article above mentioned seems to me very credible  read1.

I think many Researchers think that there was some kind of 'Electrical Event'. But its generally believed that all or most of the Dyatlov Group were already in the Tent when the first 'Event' occurred.

Hello,
They could hear the sound of static crackling or saw a glowing fire ball outside through the tent fabric. The electric discharge could initially hit the front of the tent or occur at its entrance, so they quickly cut holes in the tent and fled. Therefore, they could not use the entrance. Subsequently, later the whole tent or its immediate surroundings could be under discharge and they could not take their clothes from the tent. So they moved to the woods. What happened there, whether it was related to the previous electric discharge, is largely unknown ... I read somewhere that Elmo fire or some lighting ball can be attracted by fire and smoke. And they set up a fire on the edge of the forest ...
 

December 17, 2020, 02:29:21 PM
Reply #46
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hello

For me, the best theory of all about Dyatlov´s incident:

https://sites.google.com/site/mezoelectric/dyatlov-pass-incident-1

As I said in previous posts, what if e.g. the electric discharge on the tent poles create something as a closed electric circle (on the tent, even in close proximity to the tent) and the Dyatlovs could not enter the tent to take clothes and shoes? This would also explain why they could not get to their things in the tent for a long time.

The article above mentioned seems to me very credible  read1.

I think many Researchers think that there was some kind of 'Electrical Event'. But its generally believed that all or most of the Dyatlov Group were already in the Tent when the first 'Event' occurred.

Hello,
They could hear the sound of static crackling or saw a glowing fire ball outside through the tent fabric. The electric discharge could initially hit the front of the tent or occur at its entrance, so they quickly cut holes in the tent and fled. Therefore, they could not use the entrance. Subsequently, later the whole tent or its immediate surroundings could be under discharge and they could not take their clothes from the tent. So they moved to the woods. What happened there, whether it was related to the previous electric discharge, is largely unknown ... I read somewhere that Elmo fire or some lighting ball can be attracted by fire and smoke. And they set up a fire on the edge of the forest ...

But surely any Electrical discharge as you suggest would be short lived. And therefore they would have no need to abandon the Tent.
DB
 

December 18, 2020, 03:11:53 AM
Reply #47

eurocentric

Guest
Had the 2 Yuris been struck by lightning at the tent then Yuri K would be unable to walk unaided, dragging his left foot (both his lower leg and foot were affected, including one charred toe) because the muscles and nerves would be damaged by the third-degree burns, not just the skin suface. The evidence of his struggle to walk would be visible in the footprints.

 

I'm not sure what you're seeking to illustrate - the line in the snow is supposed to be that made by a dragged toe? It isn't, and would be the wrong foot if so.

If a man's lower leg, ankle and foot nerves are fried, and the muscles they operate are damaged by third-degree burns, he would walk like someone with a club foot. Signals from his brain would not operate his ankle and foot. It would be impossible for him to make it down that pass in the dark without either having a crutch, or his arm slung around someone's shoulder.

The professional trackers involved in the recovery would know instantly that someone's walking ability had been impaired, and the DPI would long have established there were some serious injuries at the tent.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 03:48:31 AM by eurocentric »
 

December 18, 2020, 08:11:03 AM
Reply #48
Offline

Nigel Evans


Had the 2 Yuris been struck by lightning at the tent then Yuri K would be unable to walk unaided, dragging his left foot (both his lower leg and foot were affected, including one charred toe) because the muscles and nerves would be damaged by the third-degree burns, not just the skin suface. The evidence of his struggle to walk would be visible in the footprints.

 

I'm not sure what you're seeking to illustrate - the line in the snow is supposed to be that made by a dragged toe? It isn't, and would be the wrong foot if so.

If a man's lower leg, ankle and foot nerves are fried, and the muscles they operate are damaged by third-degree burns, he would walk like someone with a club foot. Signals from his brain would not operate his ankle and foot. It would be impossible for him to make it down that pass in the dark without either having a crutch, or his arm slung around someone's shoulder.

The professional trackers involved in the recovery would know instantly that someone's walking ability had been impaired, and the DPI would long have established there were some serious injuries at the tent.

Well at least you're not blaming invisible helicopters this time.  bigjoke
It looks uncannily like a sock covered left foot being dragged across the snow to me. (from the bottom to the top). The big toe (on the rhs) is distinct from the others. Someone to the left could have put their right foot very close by in the centre of the sweep indicating they're supporting the injured man. It all fits together very nicely imo.

We don't know the extent of YuriK's muscle damage and hence how he would have walked, you're just making stuff up. The burn was on the front of the lower leg and foot, although in great pain his calf and thigh muscles may have been functional. Certainly his back of thigh muscles to lift the lower leg higher.

At least one of the professionals on the scene thought this was worth a close up photograph, your professional trackers seemed unable to state that there were 9 separate tracks, from memory stating it as "8 or 9" which would fit with one member of the group only using one foot, i.e. two men only producing three footprints.
 

December 20, 2020, 01:22:27 AM
Reply #49
Offline

fdrnas


People i was curious what can you get in Photoshop from lastimage .Here Arthur resoults....maybe is someone maybe not
Thanks for your time.
Im New at forum,maybe i fail to post hahah

 

December 23, 2020, 07:55:55 AM
Reply #50

eurocentric

Guest
Had the 2 Yuris been struck by lightning at the tent then Yuri K would be unable to walk unaided, dragging his left foot (both his lower leg and foot were affected, including one charred toe) because the muscles and nerves would be damaged by the third-degree burns, not just the skin suface. The evidence of his struggle to walk would be visible in the footprints.

 

I'm not sure what you're seeking to illustrate - the line in the snow is supposed to be that made by a dragged toe? It isn't, and would be the wrong foot if so.

If a man's lower leg, ankle and foot nerves are fried, and the muscles they operate are damaged by third-degree burns, he would walk like someone with a club foot. Signals from his brain would not operate his ankle and foot. It would be impossible for him to make it down that pass in the dark without either having a crutch, or his arm slung around someone's shoulder.

The professional trackers involved in the recovery would know instantly that someone's walking ability had been impaired, and the DPI would long have established there were some serious injuries at the tent.

Well at least you're not blaming invisible helicopters this time.  bigjoke
It looks uncannily like a sock covered left foot being dragged across the snow to me. (from the bottom to the top). The big toe (on the rhs) is distinct from the others. Someone to the left could have put their right foot very close by in the centre of the sweep indicating they're supporting the injured man. It all fits together very nicely imo.

We don't know the extent of YuriK's muscle damage and hence how he would have walked, you're just making stuff up. The burn was on the front of the lower leg and foot, although in great pain his calf and thigh muscles may have been functional. Certainly his back of thigh muscles to lift the lower leg higher.

At least one of the professionals on the scene thought this was worth a close up photograph, your professional trackers seemed unable to state that there were 9 separate tracks, from memory stating it as "8 or 9" which would fit with one member of the group only using one foot, i.e. two men only producing three footprints.


Me and the flying grasshopper, the Yak-24, have been going steady for several months now, and are very happy together. dance1

People who have deep tissue burns from lightning strike will have some degree of nerve damage. It can be permanent. People struck on the head can go on to develop cataracts due to damage to the occular nerve.

The body uses electrical impulses from the brain and spinal cord to power muscles to operate tendons which make shaped bone endings, joints, move relative to one another. We are electrical organisms, wired up with nerves. Disable those nerves and you have numbness and a problem with movement in the affected area. Nerves and the myelin sheaths they run through can be damaged through being severed or burnt, and severe inflammation can also limit tendon movement through their tunnel-like sheaths. Beneficially a lightning strike, delivering instant damage, knocks out pain reception in the affected area, but that does not mean the joint continues to operate without limitation, and in this case it's the load bearing lower left leg and foot.

This is what is says in the autopsy report for Yuri K:

The left shin and foot are swollen. There is a burn across the entire surface of the left anticnemion with a size of 31 x 10 cm with parchment density. <this means the entire shin> In the lower third of the left shin is of a brown-black color with charred tissue and and bursting skin, then in the middle third and upper third the burn surface is bright red and light brown. On the rear inside surface of the left shin there is an abrasions of dark brown color with parchment density and sizes of 8 x 1.3 cm, 4 x 1.5 cm, and 2 x 1 cm. The rear of the left foot is dark brown in color with subcutaneous defects of the epidermis with a size of 10 x 4 cm. The back of the second toe is charred and the skin is dark brown in color and tight when palpated.

Had he been assisted to walk a mile down a mountain slope via a 3-legged walk with another hiker, the footprints and their depths would still indicate that.

The photo you use is not a dragged foot, and it is the wrong foot if so. The depth is too uniform in what is clearly soft snow, it is far more likely to be the imprint of an object which was once laid on the snow surface, it's light weight spread across a wide surface, perhaps a piece of windblown tree from the forests.

Had the hikers been struck by lightning at the tent I think witnesses observing orange orbs would confirm they had seen lightning. And a group of experienced hikers, having just been struck by lightning, two badly injured, would surely not choose to assemble 50 yards away, out in the open, or, even if descending the pass, choose to hide under the tallest tree in a forest - both things you do not do when caught up in an electrical storm.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 08:00:56 AM by eurocentric »
 

December 23, 2020, 09:26:27 AM
Reply #51
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Nigel Evans


Had the 2 Yuris been struck by lightning at the tent then Yuri K would be unable to walk unaided, dragging his left foot (both his lower leg and foot were affected, including one charred toe) because the muscles and nerves would be damaged by the third-degree burns, not just the skin suface. The evidence of his struggle to walk would be visible in the footprints.

 

I'm not sure what you're seeking to illustrate - the line in the snow is supposed to be that made by a dragged toe? It isn't, and would be the wrong foot if so.

If a man's lower leg, ankle and foot nerves are fried, and the muscles they operate are damaged by third-degree burns, he would walk like someone with a club foot. Signals from his brain would not operate his ankle and foot. It would be impossible for him to make it down that pass in the dark without either having a crutch, or his arm slung around someone's shoulder.

The professional trackers involved in the recovery would know instantly that someone's walking ability had been impaired, and the DPI would long have established there were some serious injuries at the tent.

Well at least you're not blaming invisible helicopters this time.  bigjoke
It looks uncannily like a sock covered left foot being dragged across the snow to me. (from the bottom to the top). The big toe (on the rhs) is distinct from the others. Someone to the left could have put their right foot very close by in the centre of the sweep indicating they're supporting the injured man. It all fits together very nicely imo.

We don't know the extent of YuriK's muscle damage and hence how he would have walked, you're just making stuff up. The burn was on the front of the lower leg and foot, although in great pain his calf and thigh muscles may have been functional. Certainly his back of thigh muscles to lift the lower leg higher.

At least one of the professionals on the scene thought this was worth a close up photograph, your professional trackers seemed unable to state that there were 9 separate tracks, from memory stating it as "8 or 9" which would fit with one member of the group only using one foot, i.e. two men only producing three footprints.


Me and the flying grasshopper, the Yak-24, have been going steady for several months now, and are very happy together. dance1
It's good to have a hobby.People who have deep tissue burns from lightning strike will have some degree of nerve damage. It can be permanent. People struck on the head can go on to develop cataracts due to damage to the occular nerve.
Quite possibly but what has this got to do with the issue under discussion when they were probably dead within an hour or two?

The body uses electrical impulses from the brain and spinal cord to power muscles to operate tendons which make shaped bone endings, joints, move relative to one another. We are electrical organisms, wired up with nerves. Disable those nerves and you have numbness and a problem with movement in the affected area. Nerves and the myelin sheaths they run through can be damaged through being severed or burnt, and severe inflammation can also limit tendon movement through their tunnel-like sheaths. Beneficially a lightning strike, delivering instant damage, knocks out pain reception in the affected area, but that does not mean the joint continues to operate without limitation, and in this case it's the load bearing lower left leg and foot.

This is what is says in the autopsy report for Yuri K:

The left shin and foot are swollen. There is a burn across the entire surface of the left anticnemion with a size of 31 x 10 cm with parchment density. <this means the entire shin> In the lower third of the left shin is of a brown-black color with charred tissue and and bursting skin, then in the middle third and upper third the burn surface is bright red and light brown. On the rear inside surface of the left shin there is an abrasions of dark brown color with parchment density and sizes of 8 x 1.3 cm, 4 x 1.5 cm, and 2 x 1 cm. The rear of the left foot is dark brown in color with subcutaneous defects of the epidermis with a size of 10 x 4 cm. The back of the second toe is charred and the skin is dark brown in color and tight when palpated.
Yes and none of this has to affect the thigh muscles which would keep the leg elevated. The electrical discharge seems local to the lower leg.
Had he been assisted to walk a mile down a mountain slope via a 3-legged walk with another hiker, the footprints and their depths would still indicate that.That's the evidence we have, the statement "8 or 9" people is the best indication that one of them was hobbling and is supported by the photo of a possible dragging of a LEFT foot. Maybe less a 3-legged walk and more a 5-legged walk. Then the injured left leg would travel horizontally as shown.

The photo you use is not a dragged foot, and it is the wrong foot if so. No it isn't. The depth is too uniform in what is clearly soft snow, it is far more likely to be the imprint of an object which was once laid on the snow surface, it's light weight spread across a wide surface, perhaps a piece of windblown tree from the forests.It's good to be certain, however being certain and correct is a bit more tricky... lol4
Had the hikers been struck by lightning at the tent I think witnesses observing orange orbs would confirm they had seen lightning. And a group of experienced hikers, having just been struck by lightning, two badly injured, would surely not choose to assemble 50 yards away, out in the open, or, even if descending the pass, choose to hide under the tallest tree in a forest - both things you do not do when caught up in an electrical storm.
Our discussion is not about lightning, it's about YuriK (and YuriD) getting burnt at the tent and the evidence to support this. If so then these burns can only be electrical or chemical. Lightning is a good candidate, as is ball lightning. A chemical burn would require them to be outside which alters the narrative slightly and doesn't explain slashing the tent from the inside. So the best fit is electrical. Assembling outside away from the tent is a perfectly sensible step before committing to descending. They could have assumed that they were safe at the cedar, sufficient distance away from the peak. If the electrical force involved was ball lightning then behind the biggest tree trunk might seem to be the safest place.

 

December 26, 2020, 09:54:44 AM
Reply #52
Online

marieuk


I have a couple of questions on the picture of the footprints. Sorry if this has been gone through before, but when I look at the photo it looks like the long track in the middle is going in a different direction to the footprints?  Also, are there left and right bare footprints to the right of the photo, or is that just me?  i know sometimes you can see things that aren't really the way you think they are.
 

December 30, 2020, 07:41:06 PM
Reply #53
Offline

Mark II


Hi everybody, I’m new to the case and I’ve been avidly reading about DP for some weeks now. A rabbit hole like no others.

I signed up because I agree with the OP and I’d like to leave my opinion.

It’s true that the Occam Razor tells that it was murder, like somebody said.
What kept me from believing murder for weeks was, you guess it, the absence of footprints.

But as the OP implies, absence of evidence doesn’t mean evidence of absence.
That may sound a little too easy, I mean an easy way to escape with a theory. But, I think in this case that quote fits very well. It’s not an easy way out, rather it’s a coherent interpretation of possible occurences.

As far as I know, nobody payed much attention to the footprints of the group while it was incoming. Correct me if I’m wrong, but we don’t have a complete evaluation of footprints on that side of the mountain.
Also, the footprints going downhill start just some distance (40-50 m?) from the tent.
This would demonstrate that not all of the footprints were preserved or accounted for. Only thing we know is that there were 8-9 sets of prints going downhill. We don’t know for sure that were no other sets of prints around the tent.

Another correct thing that was said is along the lines of the following: snowfall and wind can erase and preserve footprints in random patterns. Maybe the slope was hit by the wind, while the other sides of the crest were not [Edit: I mean, different angles and force required to lift snow], leaving additional footprints buried under the snow.
I don’t know about mountains, but at least it’s very possible from a logical standpoint.
The assailants could have come from the other side, and left.

Once you realize that footprints aren’t necessarily a compelling evidence, it’s all quite easy. Everything fits in the realm of possibility without contradictions, and particularly:

1) Why they left the tent with no shoes, that’s really a thing with no explanation unless you think of a forced departure. Even an avalanche would not prevent you from recovering your shoes.

2) The injuries, at least those suffered by the hill 3

3) The holes in the tent. Cut by the assailants, maybe to prevent further use. There’s no clear motive, but at least it’s much more probable than the group cutting their own tent, possibly to escape an avalanche that never was.

This explanation is weird, and scarcely probable in a vacuum, but it’s the only one that’s never negated by evidence. We can only guess the Who and the Why, but for the How there’s at least one theory that fits.
I’m with the OP.

Thanks to Mr. Reuss for the detailed downthread post.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 07:51:27 PM by Mark II »
 

January 02, 2021, 11:16:18 AM
Reply #54
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hi everybody, I’m new to the case and I’ve been avidly reading about DP for some weeks now. A rabbit hole like no others.

I signed up because I agree with the OP and I’d like to leave my opinion.

It’s true that the Occam Razor tells that it was murder, like somebody said.
What kept me from believing murder for weeks was, you guess it, the absence of footprints.

But as the OP implies, absence of evidence doesn’t mean evidence of absence.
That may sound a little too easy, I mean an easy way to escape with a theory. But, I think in this case that quote fits very well. It’s not an easy way out, rather it’s a coherent interpretation of possible occurences.

As far as I know, nobody payed much attention to the footprints of the group while it was incoming. Correct me if I’m wrong, but we don’t have a complete evaluation of footprints on that side of the mountain.
Also, the footprints going downhill start just some distance (40-50 m?) from the tent.
This would demonstrate that not all of the footprints were preserved or accounted for. Only thing we know is that there were 8-9 sets of prints going downhill. We don’t know for sure that were no other sets of prints around the tent.

Another correct thing that was said is along the lines of the following: snowfall and wind can erase and preserve footprints in random patterns. Maybe the slope was hit by the wind, while the other sides of the crest were not [Edit: I mean, different angles and force required to lift snow], leaving additional footprints buried under the snow.
I don’t know about mountains, but at least it’s very possible from a logical standpoint.
The assailants could have come from the other side, and left.

Once you realize that footprints aren’t necessarily a compelling evidence, it’s all quite easy. Everything fits in the realm of possibility without contradictions, and particularly:

1) Why they left the tent with no shoes, that’s really a thing with no explanation unless you think of a forced departure. Even an avalanche would not prevent you from recovering your shoes.

2) The injuries, at least those suffered by the hill 3

3) The holes in the tent. Cut by the assailants, maybe to prevent further use. There’s no clear motive, but at least it’s much more probable than the group cutting their own tent, possibly to escape an avalanche that never was.

This explanation is weird, and scarcely probable in a vacuum, but it’s the only one that’s never negated by evidence. We can only guess the Who and the Why, but for the How there’s at least one theory that fits.
I’m with the OP.

Thanks to Mr. Reuss for the detailed downthread post.

Its true that there is not a complete evaluation of Footprints. But what Footprints we are made aware of are significant. The Footprints are good Evidence that the Dyatlov Group left the Tent to go down the Mountainside.
DB
 

January 02, 2021, 04:53:38 PM
Reply #55
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hi everybody, I’m new to the case and I’ve been avidly reading about DP for some weeks now. A rabbit hole like no others.

I signed up because I agree with the OP and I’d like to leave my opinion.

It’s true that the Occam Razor tells that it was murder, like somebody said.
What kept me from believing murder for weeks was, you guess it, the absence of footprints.

But as the OP implies, absence of evidence doesn’t mean evidence of absence.
That may sound a little too easy, I mean an easy way to escape with a theory. But, I think in this case that quote fits very well. It’s not an easy way out, rather it’s a coherent interpretation of possible occurences.

As far as I know, nobody payed much attention to the footprints of the group while it was incoming. Correct me if I’m wrong, but we don’t have a complete evaluation of footprints on that side of the mountain.
Also, the footprints going downhill start just some distance (40-50 m?) from the tent.
This would demonstrate that not all of the footprints were preserved or accounted for. Only thing we know is that there were 8-9 sets of prints going downhill. We don’t know for sure that were no other sets of prints around the tent.

Another correct thing that was said is along the lines of the following: snowfall and wind can erase and preserve footprints in random patterns. Maybe the slope was hit by the wind, while the other sides of the crest were not [Edit: I mean, different angles and force required to lift snow], leaving additional footprints buried under the snow.
I don’t know about mountains, but at least it’s very possible from a logical standpoint.
The assailants could have come from the other side, and left.

Once you realize that footprints aren’t necessarily a compelling evidence, it’s all quite easy. Everything fits in the realm of possibility without contradictions, and particularly:

1) Why they left the tent with no shoes, that’s really a thing with no explanation unless you think of a forced departure. Even an avalanche would not prevent you from recovering your shoes.

2) The injuries, at least those suffered by the hill 3

3) The holes in the tent. Cut by the assailants, maybe to prevent further use. There’s no clear motive, but at least it’s much more probable than the group cutting their own tent, possibly to escape an avalanche that never was.

This explanation is weird, and scarcely probable in a vacuum, but it’s the only one that’s never negated by evidence. We can only guess the Who and the Why, but for the How there’s at least one theory that fits.
I’m with the OP.

Thanks to Mr. Reuss for the detailed downthread post.

You are correct that there is a lack of detail about the foot prints and that's interesting in itself.  But its unlikely that nature has selectively removed all of the prints of potential murders  but not the hikers.  Principles of Occam's Razor?

Regards

Star man
 

January 02, 2021, 08:25:45 PM
Reply #56
Offline

Mark II



You are correct that there is a lack of detail about the foot prints and that's interesting in itself.  But its unlikely that nature has selectively removed all of the prints of potential murders  but not the hikers.  Principles of Occam's Razor?

Regards

Star man

Star man, my reasoning is that a hypothetical second party never went down the slope. If there was second party, it came and went from another direction. In this case a different preservation is possible.
Something like an “eviction”. Why? Really don’t know. Just wondering.
 

January 03, 2021, 02:10:05 AM
Reply #57
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient

You are correct that there is a lack of detail about the foot prints and that's interesting in itself.  But its unlikely that nature has selectively removed all of the prints of potential murders  but not the hikers.  Principles of Occam's Razor?

Regards

Star man

IMO, there is only one possibility for outsiders, and that is if the whole scene on Kholat is a fabrication.  The only evidence of outsiders in this case is all the evidence.  In other words, nothing there was the result of the hikers.  Outsiders picked up the hikers tracks and made new ones to Kholat.  They set the tent up, cut it, created the foot prints themselves, air lifted the bodies in and positioned them as they were found, then were air lifted out themselves.  The real event happened elsewhere.  There is a fair amount of info to support this.

Regards

Star man

Star man, my reasoning is that a hypothetical second party never went down the slope. If there was second party, it came and went from another direction. In this case a different preservation is possible.
Something like an “eviction”. Why? Really don’t know. Just wondering.
 

January 19, 2021, 06:50:17 PM
Reply #58
Offline

Manti



Consequently, how can this heel footprint be explained ?



About these photos.. What are we supposed to be looking at here?
Zina, Igor, Rustik were found under some snow, not much but enough to cover and hide them and enough so that they had to be dug out. And here are photos both showing very fresh prints.Even if wind blows away new snow in certain areas, features will be smoothed out by friction. Look at the second photo. That long print in the snow (is it the print of a ski?) is visibly more eroded than the "footprint". The footprint has crisp sharp edges.

And the first one, doesn't it look like something has been dragged on the snow that smoothed out the surface, and then there's a bootprint on top of that? Also very fresh.
And a multitude of other small prints around on both photos. I don't know what to think but this is not how snow in remote areas looks, this is not "virgin snow".
 

January 20, 2021, 12:50:20 AM
Reply #59
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient

Consequently, how can this heel footprint be explained ?



About these photos.. What are we supposed to be looking at here?
Zina, Igor, Rustik were found under some snow, not much but enough to cover and hide them and enough so that they had to be dug out. And here are photos both showing very fresh prints.Even if wind blows away new snow in certain areas, features will be smoothed out by friction. Look at the second photo. That long print in the snow (is it the print of a ski?) is visibly more eroded than the "footprint". The footprint has crisp sharp edges.

And the first one, doesn't it look like something has been dragged on the snow that smoothed out the surface, and then there's a bootprint on top of that? Also very fresh.
And a multitude of other small prints around on both photos. I don't know what to think but this is not how snow in remote areas looks, this is not "virgin snow".

Good points.  Why isn't a thorough analysis of the foot prints in the case files?   Would have expected more photographs, measurements, estimate of the age of the prints etc.

Regards

Star man