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Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Footprints  (Read 5360 times)

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December 08, 2020, 12:50:10 AM
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GKM


Over and over again I have read, on this forum, about the lack of footprints. The only footprints found, supposedly, were those belonging to the the hikers. Lack of additional footprints, in my opinion, means absolutely nothing. Yes, I know all about the raised footprints by the hikers but this does not mean there should have been more "raised footprints" if someone else was near the tent or the c.tree. Additional prints could have been long gone by the time searchers arrived. This doesn't mean I believe other people were there that fateful night. What I do mean is why is this even an issue? And the urine trace after 3 weeks? Really? I simply do not believe that a trace of urine was left. Pretty much beyond belief.
 

December 08, 2020, 01:07:55 AM
Reply #1
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Teddy

Administrator
I am with you.
 

December 08, 2020, 03:38:37 AM
Reply #2
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Nigel Evans


Why is it beyond belief that there were traces of urine?
 

December 08, 2020, 03:57:16 AM
Reply #3
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Teddy

Administrator
Why is it beyond belief that there were traces of urine?
Beyond belief is that the traces would preserve for a month. They must be left by someone else.
 

December 08, 2020, 04:02:30 AM
Reply #4
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Nigel Evans


Why is it beyond belief that there were traces of urine?
Beyond belief is that the traces would preserve for a month. They must be left by someone else.


Why can't a column/blob of yellow ice survive for three weeks in sub zero temperatures, like the footsteps did?
 

December 08, 2020, 04:28:59 AM
Reply #5
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Teddy

Administrator
Quote
Why can't a column/blob of yellow ice survive for three weeks in sub zero temperatures, like the footsteps did?

I am waiting for more snow to fall and will do some experiments with footsteps to prove a point.
You can pee in the snow and bring photos after a month to show us.
 

December 08, 2020, 04:34:23 AM
Reply #6
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Nigel Evans


Quote
Why can't a column/blob of yellow ice survive for three weeks in sub zero temperatures, like the footsteps did?

I am waiting for more snow to fall and will do some experiments with footsteps to prove a point.
You can pee in the snow and bring photos after a month to show us.


Too warm here, i'll have to depend on your experiments.
 

December 08, 2020, 04:53:47 AM
Reply #7
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Teddy

Administrator
Quote
Too warm here, i'll have to depend on your experiments.

Stand by then.
 

December 08, 2020, 03:30:10 PM
Reply #8
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Over and over again I have read, on this forum, about the lack of footprints. The only footprints found, supposedly, were those belonging to the the hikers. Lack of additional footprints, in my opinion, means absolutely nothing. Yes, I know all about the raised footprints by the hikers but this does not mean there should have been more "raised footprints" if someone else was near the tent or the c.tree. Additional prints could have been long gone by the time searchers arrived. This doesn't mean I believe other people were there that fateful night. What I do mean is why is this even an issue? And the urine trace after 3 weeks? Really? I simply do not believe that a trace of urine was left. Pretty much beyond belief.

Lack of footprints is just as important as say lack of photographic evidence. One of the most important aspects of a crime scene investigation is prints of various kinds. So if you have a sequence of prints it can tell a story of a crime. The freezing conditions on the mountainside preserved prints. Any other people or animals in that area would also have left prints, and those prints would have been found by the search parties.
DB
 

December 08, 2020, 03:33:38 PM
Reply #9
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Urine traces would be preserved in freezing conditions along with footprints.
DB
 

December 09, 2020, 12:00:58 AM
Reply #10

eurocentric

Guest
IMO a third party could only conceivably be involved at the cedar and ravine, because in those areas the later snowfall would cover their tracks, it would tend to collect at lower elevation rather than be wind scoured, and we know what fell lower down the pass from the way it covered 3 bodies under approximately 2ft of snow in the weeks before the recovery team found them and how the hiker tracks disappeared halfway to the forest. So Mother Nature would erase half the crime scene.

However, in order to flush the hikers from the safety of their tent at 3000ft, a third party would need to scale the pass to that elevation, and that means, as with the hiker prints around and leading from the tent, the risk of the third party footprints also being preserved.

I suppose, if you were determined to cover up your crime, and braving the cold for a prolonged period of time, ensuring that no witnesses saw you or you'd need to murder them too, that you could either dig out your compacting footprints and backfill with soft snow, or do some vigorous raking, in what would in places be deep snow. And you'd need to do them all, being unable to predict the forthcoming weather so that you couldn't be sure which prints risked remaining. Where your footprints intersected the hikers' on the way down it would be virtually impossible to selectively erase yours and leave theirs so that there was no suspicion the tracks had been tampered with.

A man typically strides 3ft, less so when in snow of varying depths, or when on a slope, so let's say a 2ft average stride on that mountain = he has 2640 footprints to remove across 1 mile if approaching the tent from the cedar/den, and the same again back down = 5280 footprints which he cannot rely upon the weather to hide in whatever unknown time will elapse before the bodies are found. And that's not even including footprints leading to and from the general area.

5280 prints is just one man, who presumably would need a gun to get the unarmed hikers out the tent and off the pass, or a larger group without guns but intimidating enough to overwhelm a vulnerable group, so let's deploy a minimum of 4 burly men with knives = 21,120 footprints, any one of which might be as incriminating as if trodden into wet concrete.

Either way that would be some clean-up job.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 12:31:42 AM by eurocentric »
 

December 09, 2020, 12:09:46 AM
Reply #11

eurocentric

Guest
Quote
Too warm here, i'll have to depend on your experiments.

Stand by then.

I have some frozen peas in my freezer, I can confirm they've been there for months.
 

December 09, 2020, 12:45:35 AM
Reply #12
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Nigel Evans


5280 prints is just one man, who presumably would need a gun to get the unarmed hikers out the tent and off the pass, or a larger group without guns but intimidating enough to overwhelm a vulnerable group, so let's deploy a minimum of 4 burly men with knives = 21,120 footprints, any one of which might be as incriminating as if trodden into wet concrete.

Good post but lets not forget about helicopters, it's a possible explanation for the Eagle photo and there are reports of large snow circles near the tent which can also be explained as wind eddies which leads into infrasound theories as well of course.


All complicated stuff, much simpler is electrical fireworks as photographed.


Not sure about the frozen pea theory, e.g. my freezer has frozen pizzas....  dunno1




« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 12:54:53 AM by Nigel Evans »
 

December 09, 2020, 11:54:45 AM
Reply #13
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
IMO a third party could only conceivably be involved at the cedar and ravine, because in those areas the later snowfall would cover their tracks, it would tend to collect at lower elevation rather than be wind scoured, and we know what fell lower down the pass from the way it covered 3 bodies under approximately 2ft of snow in the weeks before the recovery team found them and how the hiker tracks disappeared halfway to the forest. So Mother Nature would erase half the crime scene.

However, in order to flush the hikers from the safety of their tent at 3000ft, a third party would need to scale the pass to that elevation, and that means, as with the hiker prints around and leading from the tent, the risk of the third party footprints also being preserved.

I suppose, if you were determined to cover up your crime, and braving the cold for a prolonged period of time, ensuring that no witnesses saw you or you'd need to murder them too, that you could either dig out your compacting footprints and backfill with soft snow, or do some vigorous raking, in what would in places be deep snow. And you'd need to do them all, being unable to predict the forthcoming weather so that you couldn't be sure which prints risked remaining. Where your footprints intersected the hikers' on the way down it would be virtually impossible to selectively erase yours and leave theirs so that there was no suspicion the tracks had been tampered with.

A man typically strides 3ft, less so when in snow of varying depths, or when on a slope, so let's say a 2ft average stride on that mountain = he has 2640 footprints to remove across 1 mile if approaching the tent from the cedar/den, and the same again back down = 5280 footprints which he cannot rely upon the weather to hide in whatever unknown time will elapse before the bodies are found. And that's not even including footprints leading to and from the general area.

5280 prints is just one man, who presumably would need a gun to get the unarmed hikers out the tent and off the pass, or a larger group without guns but intimidating enough to overwhelm a vulnerable group, so let's deploy a minimum of 4 burly men with knives = 21,120 footprints, any one of which might be as incriminating as if trodden into wet concrete.

Either way that would be some clean-up job.

Well thats gone into some detail there regarding the potential covering over of footprints. It would be extremely difficult to cover ones tracks in those conditions especially during an ongoing crime. In fact it would probably be impossible to be certain of a proper cover up. Which is one of the reasons that I dont subscribe to involvement by other people.
DB
 

December 09, 2020, 12:18:35 PM
Reply #14
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
5280 prints is just one man, who presumably would need a gun to get the unarmed hikers out the tent and off the pass, or a larger group without guns but intimidating enough to overwhelm a vulnerable group, so let's deploy a minimum of 4 burly men with knives = 21,120 footprints, any one of which might be as incriminating as if trodden into wet concrete.

Good post but lets not forget about helicopters, it's a possible explanation for the Eagle photo and there are reports of large snow circles near the tent which can also be explained as wind eddies which leads into infrasound theories as well of course.


All complicated stuff, much simpler is electrical fireworks as photographed.


Not sure about the frozen pea theory, e.g. my freezer has frozen pizzas....  dunno1

Helicopters  !  ?  Wind eddies  ! ?  Many of the animal mutations that occur around the World have been linked to UFO's and witnesses describe animals as having been sucked up into the sky and dropped somewhere, not usually that far away. Many 'Crop Circles' vary in size. And its not a modern phenomenon either.
 https://www.lifemags.co.uk/crop-circles-beautiful-curiosities/
DB
 

December 09, 2020, 02:11:21 PM
Reply #15
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Nigel Evans


5280 prints is just one man, who presumably would need a gun to get the unarmed hikers out the tent and off the pass, or a larger group without guns but intimidating enough to overwhelm a vulnerable group, so let's deploy a minimum of 4 burly men with knives = 21,120 footprints, any one of which might be as incriminating as if trodden into wet concrete.

Good post but lets not forget about helicopters, it's a possible explanation for the Eagle photo and there are reports of large snow circles near the tent which can also be explained as wind eddies which leads into infrasound theories as well of course.


All complicated stuff, much simpler is electrical fireworks as photographed.


Not sure about the frozen pea theory, e.g. my freezer has frozen pizzas....  dunno1

Helicopters  !  ?  Wind eddies  ! ?  Many of the animal mutations that occur around the World have been linked to UFO's and witnesses describe animals as having been sucked up into the sky and dropped somewhere, not usually that far away. Many 'Crop Circles' vary in size. And its not a modern phenomenon either.
 https://www.lifemags.co.uk/crop-circles-beautiful-curiosities/

All true, but no one gets third degree burns on their legs consistent with lightning or gets dropped next to a den.
I think a lightning bolt on the tent pole (which is facing the wrong way?) fits the evidence perfectly.
 

December 09, 2020, 02:59:00 PM
Reply #16
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
5280 prints is just one man, who presumably would need a gun to get the unarmed hikers out the tent and off the pass, or a larger group without guns but intimidating enough to overwhelm a vulnerable group, so let's deploy a minimum of 4 burly men with knives = 21,120 footprints, any one of which might be as incriminating as if trodden into wet concrete.

Good post but lets not forget about helicopters, it's a possible explanation for the Eagle photo and there are reports of large snow circles near the tent which can also be explained as wind eddies which leads into infrasound theories as well of course.


All complicated stuff, much simpler is electrical fireworks as photographed.


Not sure about the frozen pea theory, e.g. my freezer has frozen pizzas....  dunno1

Helicopters  !  ?  Wind eddies  ! ?  Many of the animal mutations that occur around the World have been linked to UFO's and witnesses describe animals as having been sucked up into the sky and dropped somewhere, not usually that far away. Many 'Crop Circles' vary in size. And its not a modern phenomenon either.
 https://www.lifemags.co.uk/crop-circles-beautiful-curiosities/

All true, but no one gets third degree burns on their legs consistent with lightning or gets dropped next to a den.
I think a lightning bolt on the tent pole (which is facing the wrong way?) fits the evidence perfectly.

If a lightning bolt hit the tent or tent pole would it not fry the tent/tent pole, resulting in burns/scorch marks etc?  I would think it would.

Regards

Star man

 

December 09, 2020, 03:20:06 PM
Reply #17
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
 You should be able to tell alot from foot prints.  But there is no good forensic analysis of the prints that were on the pass.  Its a shame.

I dont personally think there were other people there.  At least not when it happened.  The lack of other foot prints is just one piece of evidence.  When you look at the whole scene(s) holistically, it paints a picture that is unlikely to include outsiders.  I think something very strange and unusual happened to the Dyatlov group. 

Regards

Star man
 

December 09, 2020, 04:10:08 PM
Reply #18
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
5280 prints is just one man, who presumably would need a gun to get the unarmed hikers out the tent and off the pass, or a larger group without guns but intimidating enough to overwhelm a vulnerable group, so let's deploy a minimum of 4 burly men with knives = 21,120 footprints, any one of which might be as incriminating as if trodden into wet concrete.

Good post but lets not forget about helicopters, it's a possible explanation for the Eagle photo and there are reports of large snow circles near the tent which can also be explained as wind eddies which leads into infrasound theories as well of course.


All complicated stuff, much simpler is electrical fireworks as photographed.


Not sure about the frozen pea theory, e.g. my freezer has frozen pizzas....  dunno1

Helicopters  !  ?  Wind eddies  ! ?  Many of the animal mutations that occur around the World have been linked to UFO's and witnesses describe animals as having been sucked up into the sky and dropped somewhere, not usually that far away. Many 'Crop Circles' vary in size. And its not a modern phenomenon either.
 https://www.lifemags.co.uk/crop-circles-beautiful-curiosities/

All true, but no one gets third degree burns on their legs consistent with lightning or gets dropped next to a den.
I think a lightning bolt on the tent pole (which is facing the wrong way?) fits the evidence perfectly.

 An unknown force may have caused those so called burns and dropped someone at the Ravine. Same force that was active at the Tent.
DB
 

December 09, 2020, 04:22:17 PM
Reply #19
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
5280 prints is just one man, who presumably would need a gun to get the unarmed hikers out the tent and off the pass, or a larger group without guns but intimidating enough to overwhelm a vulnerable group, so let's deploy a minimum of 4 burly men with knives = 21,120 footprints, any one of which might be as incriminating as if trodden into wet concrete.

Good post but lets not forget about helicopters, it's a possible explanation for the Eagle photo and there are reports of large snow circles near the tent which can also be explained as wind eddies which leads into infrasound theories as well of course.


All complicated stuff, much simpler is electrical fireworks as photographed.


Not sure about the frozen pea theory, e.g. my freezer has frozen pizzas....  dunno1

Helicopters  !  ?  Wind eddies  ! ?  Many of the animal mutations that occur around the World have been linked to UFO's and witnesses describe animals as having been sucked up into the sky and dropped somewhere, not usually that far away. Many 'Crop Circles' vary in size. And its not a modern phenomenon either.
 https://www.lifemags.co.uk/crop-circles-beautiful-curiosities/

All true, but no one gets third degree burns on their legs consistent with lightning or gets dropped next to a den.
I think a lightning bolt on the tent pole (which is facing the wrong way?) fits the evidence perfectly.

If a lightning bolt hit the tent or tent pole would it not fry the tent/tent pole, resulting in burns/scorch marks etc?  I would think it would.

Regards

Star man

Try this article.
 https://blog.tatonka.com/en/camping-thunderstorm-protcetion/
I think if Lightning had have hit the Tent then we could have expected more damage and also injuries to people. Well we know that some of the injuries look like they possibly could have been caused by some electrical event, but not necessarily Lightning.
DB
 

December 09, 2020, 04:31:25 PM
Reply #20
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
You should be able to tell alot from foot prints.  But there is no good forensic analysis of the prints that were on the pass.  Its a shame.

I dont personally think there were other people there.  At least not when it happened.  The lack of other foot prints is just one piece of evidence.  When you look at the whole scene(s) holistically, it paints a picture that is unlikely to include outsiders.  I think something very strange and unusual happened to the Dyatlov group. 

Regards

Star man

What evidence we have suggests that no other people were involved in the demise of the Dyatlov group. Avalanche can almost certainly be ruled out. And any wind phenomena like a Tornado can almost certainly be ruled out. So we are certainly looking at something very strange and unusual having occurred.
DB
 

December 10, 2020, 01:22:08 AM
Reply #21
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Nigel Evans


5280 prints is just one man, who presumably would need a gun to get the unarmed hikers out the tent and off the pass, or a larger group without guns but intimidating enough to overwhelm a vulnerable group, so let's deploy a minimum of 4 burly men with knives = 21,120 footprints, any one of which might be as incriminating as if trodden into wet concrete.

Good post but lets not forget about helicopters, it's a possible explanation for the Eagle photo and there are reports of large snow circles near the tent which can also be explained as wind eddies which leads into infrasound theories as well of course.


All complicated stuff, much simpler is electrical fireworks as photographed.


Not sure about the frozen pea theory, e.g. my freezer has frozen pizzas....  dunno1

Helicopters  !  ?  Wind eddies  ! ?  Many of the animal mutations that occur around the World have been linked to UFO's and witnesses describe animals as having been sucked up into the sky and dropped somewhere, not usually that far away. Many 'Crop Circles' vary in size. And its not a modern phenomenon either.
 https://www.lifemags.co.uk/crop-circles-beautiful-curiosities/

All true, but no one gets third degree burns on their legs consistent with lightning or gets dropped next to a den.
I think a lightning bolt on the tent pole (which is facing the wrong way?) fits the evidence perfectly.

If a lightning bolt hit the tent or tent pole would it not fry the tent/tent pole, resulting in burns/scorch marks etc?  I would think it would.

Regards

Star man


A fair point, but the arguments against would include :-
  • it was a relatively modest discharge.
  • if the tent fabric was highly charged then it could have spread the current and the heat across a wide area of cold wet fabric.
  • the tent pole was broken and this fits with the air spaces within heating and spitting the wood.
  • the pole would have had condensation on the surface.
  • the tent would have been covered in snow at sub zero temperature.
Lightning bolt is probably loose terminology. Better might be electrical discharge. It could be from upwards from the ground for instance. The theory is that they were within or in close proximity to electric potential which found a path through Yuri K possibly Yuri D as well. But the energies don't have to be in the same league as lightning which can be far far higher.
 

December 10, 2020, 02:28:35 PM
Reply #22
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
5280 prints is just one man, who presumably would need a gun to get the unarmed hikers out the tent and off the pass, or a larger group without guns but intimidating enough to overwhelm a vulnerable group, so let's deploy a minimum of 4 burly men with knives = 21,120 footprints, any one of which might be as incriminating as if trodden into wet concrete.

Good post but lets not forget about helicopters, it's a possible explanation for the Eagle photo and there are reports of large snow circles near the tent which can also be explained as wind eddies which leads into infrasound theories as well of course.


All complicated stuff, much simpler is electrical fireworks as photographed.


Not sure about the frozen pea theory, e.g. my freezer has frozen pizzas....  dunno1

Helicopters  !  ?  Wind eddies  ! ?  Many of the animal mutations that occur around the World have been linked to UFO's and witnesses describe animals as having been sucked up into the sky and dropped somewhere, not usually that far away. Many 'Crop Circles' vary in size. And its not a modern phenomenon either.
 https://www.lifemags.co.uk/crop-circles-beautiful-curiosities/

All true, but no one gets third degree burns on their legs consistent with lightning or gets dropped next to a den.
I think a lightning bolt on the tent pole (which is facing the wrong way?) fits the evidence perfectly.

If a lightning bolt hit the tent or tent pole would it not fry the tent/tent pole, resulting in burns/scorch marks etc?  I would think it would.

Regards

Star man


A fair point, but the arguments against would include :-
  • it was a relatively modest discharge.
  • if the tent fabric was highly charged then it could have spread the current and the heat across a wide area of cold wet fabric.
  • the tent pole was broken and this fits with the air spaces within heating and spitting the wood.
  • the pole would have had condensation on the surface.
  • the tent would have been covered in snow at sub zero temperature.
Lightning bolt is probably loose terminology. Better might be electrical discharge. It could be from upwards from the ground for instance. The theory is that they were within or in close proximity to electric potential which found a path through Yuri K possibly Yuri D as well. But the energies don't have to be in the same league as lightning which can be far far higher.

But if it was such a relatively modest discharge then it wouldnt have been the catastrophic event that caused the Dyatlov Group to abandon their Tent and risk death.
DB
 

December 10, 2020, 03:27:23 PM
Reply #23
Offline

Nigel Evans


Modest enough to create a third degree burn?
 

December 10, 2020, 03:39:32 PM
Reply #24
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
5280 prints is just one man, who presumably would need a gun to get the unarmed hikers out the tent and off the pass, or a larger group without guns but intimidating enough to overwhelm a vulnerable group, so let's deploy a minimum of 4 burly men with knives = 21,120 footprints, any one of which might be as incriminating as if trodden into wet concrete.

Good post but lets not forget about helicopters, it's a possible explanation for the Eagle photo and there are reports of large snow circles near the tent which can also be explained as wind eddies which leads into infrasound theories as well of course.


All complicated stuff, much simpler is electrical fireworks as photographed.


Not sure about the frozen pea theory, e.g. my freezer has frozen pizzas....  dunno1

Helicopters  !  ?  Wind eddies  ! ?  Many of the animal mutations that occur around the World have been linked to UFO's and witnesses describe animals as having been sucked up into the sky and dropped somewhere, not usually that far away. Many 'Crop Circles' vary in size. And its not a modern phenomenon either.
 https://www.lifemags.co.uk/crop-circles-beautiful-curiosities/

All true, but no one gets third degree burns on their legs consistent with lightning or gets dropped next to a den.
I think a lightning bolt on the tent pole (which is facing the wrong way?) fits the evidence perfectly.

If a lightning bolt hit the tent or tent pole would it not fry the tent/tent pole, resulting in burns/scorch marks etc?  I would think it would.

Regards

Star man


A fair point, but the arguments against would include :-
  • it was a relatively modest discharge.
  • if the tent fabric was highly charged then it could have spread the current and the heat across a wide area of cold wet fabric.
  • the tent pole was broken and this fits with the air spaces within heating and spitting the wood.
  • the pole would have had condensation on the surface.
  • the tent would have been covered in snow at sub zero temperature.
Lightning bolt is probably loose terminology. Better might be electrical discharge. It could be from upwards from the ground for instance. The theory is that they were within or in close proximity to electric potential which found a path through Yuri K possibly Yuri D as well. But the energies don't have to be in the same league as lightning which can be far far higher.

Its difficult for me to envisage.  Even if you have a large wet surface a lightning strike would likely cause significant burning.  Just like a lightning strike on a tree.

What other sort of electrical discharge were you thinking?  A flow of ions?   Tracers?   High voltage build up on the tent? 

Regards

Star man
 

December 11, 2020, 12:11:47 AM
Reply #25
Offline

Nigel Evans



High voltage build up on the tent? 

That could do it. For conventional lightning to find a path to earth across (say) a thousand feet of insulating air requires very high electrical potential, which is then highly destructive. Or ball lightning forming inside the tent like in the other Russian mountaineering case but in this case discharging into bodies.
 

December 11, 2020, 06:48:06 AM
Reply #26
Offline

mk


I have some frozen peas in my freezer, I can confirm they've been there for months.
lol4

Quote from: Nigel
Not sure about the frozen pea theory, e.g. my freezer has frozen pizzas....  dunno1

urine -> pee -> pea = pun.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2020, 06:54:04 AM by mk »
 

December 11, 2020, 08:26:39 AM
Reply #27
Offline

Nigel Evans


I have some frozen peas in my freezer, I can confirm they've been there for months.
lol4

Quote from: Nigel
Not sure about the frozen pea theory, e.g. my freezer has frozen pizzas....  dunno1

urine -> pee -> pea = pun.


pizza is peas with more zees
 

December 11, 2020, 08:43:45 AM
Reply #28
Offline

mk


pizza is peas with more zees
That went right over my head.  Still trying to catch it...
 

December 11, 2020, 10:26:27 AM
Reply #29
Offline

Nigel Evans


pizza is peas with more zees
That went right over my head.  Still trying to catch it...
Think cheesy...