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General Discussion / Two new photos!

« Last post by Ziljoe on May 18, 2025, 10:01:30 PM »

Two potential new photos from the ravine . Never seen before......

https://www.kp.ru/daily/27700.5/5089199/

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General Discussion / Re: Presence of water in the foothills of Kholat

« Last post by GlennM on May 18, 2025, 06:08:57 PM »

That the ravine was not considered a crime scene is telling. The searchers did not suspect foul play, or it would be noted. The searchers found nothing other than the bodies and  a mat of branches with cloth remnants at the corners for seating. Can we assume that the ravine 4 safely and successfully first made their wood mat and used it? Would they leave the mat and drink ice cold,water? Was a fire made at the wood mat?  Perhaps when Zolo or Lyuda went for water,and there was an accident.

Is physical damage from an airburst more probable than a slip-fall from the embankment or slippery stones ? Is a collapsed snow cave even more plausible? A belly full of frozen ice water would be thawed and measured at autopsy. An areial detonation should damage trees. The same trees would absorb energy from the blast. Is it likely that by chance the detonation was in such direct proximity to the ravine group? What type detonation?  Is it one that leaves shrapnel and casing debris? Is it one that sprays unspent chemicals like nitrates which color skin orange? Perhaps a meteorite strewn field happened?

I think whatever  happened at the cedar change the group dynamic. I can believe Igor, Zina and Rustem went to the tent for salvage. If an aircraft were to pass by, so much the better. I,Z,R did not spell SOS on the snow, the tent was the priority,,though hopeless. They spent too long in the woods.

Is it possible I,Z,R were unaware of the troubles at the ravine?  Surely someone would stay to tend the injured, if they were aware of injuries. Would not those in the ravine who were less affected comfort those who were worse off?  Is that what searchers found? Or did the injuries happen post mortem?

Any blast affecting the ravine 4 would similarly affect I,Z,R.

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General Discussion / Re: 9 Hikers murdered Updated

« Last post by Ziljoe on May 18, 2025, 02:27:48 PM »

My memory is shot. I could do with some help on this one.

I agree that zolotaryov was reported to have a camera on him when found in the ravine.  I can't find it in the case files yet . I took it for granted he did.

Can anyone with better knowledge fast track the link?

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General Discussion / Re: 9 Hikers murdered Updated

« Last post by eurocentric on May 18, 2025, 01:53:09 PM »

Then show us more and don't worry about whomever. Personally, Kathleen, I think there was a basic meltdown in the tent. Set aside snow slabs which are certainly plausible as the first event. IF the tent was cut from the inside I think it was because Igor lost it. The pictures of the two main infractors you have noted. Ignore the trolls and express yourself.

That's broadly my final conclusion. Though I think a mutinying Semyon and co were prevented from leaving by the others blocking the tent flap, so they cut their way out, and this precipitated the later hypothermia setting in at the tent which saw the rest abandon it in a descending state of disorientation.

I was always looking for a reason why Semyon had that camera around his neck, a family heirloom, it was one of the most puzzling details, but if he was at war with the others and not coming back then he takes it.

4 of them were most likely murdered, by the remaining 3. To obtain the den and attempt to save themselves after a fire failed and two of their number had died.

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General Discussion / Re: 9 Hikers murdered Updated

« Last post by KathleenDSmith1 on May 18, 2025, 12:49:05 PM »

Everyone and Teddy :

I do believe all 9 Hikers were murdered, if you scroll downward of the photos I sent, you will understand what the Autopsy report found:  Liver Mortis :

AI Overview
Learn more
Livor mortis is a Latin phrase that translates to "color of death." It refers to the purplish-blue discoloration of the skin that occurs after death.
This discoloration is caused by the pooling of blood in the lowest parts of the body due to the cessation of the heart's pumping action. As gravity takes effect, the blood settles in areas such as the back, buttocks, and feet, creating a characteristic pattern of discoloration.
Livor mortis is a valuable forensic indicator that can help determine the time and position of death.

I will send the image


Thank You
Kathleen D Smith

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General Discussion / Re: Presence of water in the foothills of Kholat

« Last post by Arjan on May 18, 2025, 06:43:01 AM »

As far as I am aware, the ravine area had never been investigated as a crime scenery/area by the second search party.
By the way, this had been an awful lot of work, removing some four meters high snow by hand over a large area.

The way the den and the four group members had been found on the floor of the ravine near the snow, suggest that the snow conditions had been very favourable for the group members (at the end of January).
If this had been the case, group members descending to the ravine had not needed to dig in the snow - or use tools like ace-axes - to have access the stream in the ravine for fetching running water.
All in all the stream in the ravine had been very easily accessible for fetching running water at the date when the group members had set up the tent area.

The obvious way to carry sufficient water back to the tent site is by hand in waterbottles or in buckets.

If I may guess who had descended to the ravine area to fetch water is using the photos by the camear as a hint:
- three group members are visible on the photos taken on the last days of the group as a subgroup, see the next 'loose photo':



On this photo, Zinaida is passing by in the front while Semyon invited her to join the three group member: the way she smiles on other photos showing the four, shows that she had joined on this portrait of the four with reluctancy. Based in body language visible on photos from the cameras, I have the impression that Semyon and Zinaida had not been natural friends during the tour.

So based on teh photos made by the cameras, I guess that Lyudmila, Semyon and Thibo had descended to the ravine in order to fetch running water.

The post-mortem reports provide another hind for estimating who had descended to the ravine:
- Only Lyudmila and Semyon had broken ribcages
- Thibo had a bad partly crushed skull at the side of his head.

In case a blast wave had caused this injuries, these three group members had been standing in the ravine area:
- Lyudmila and Semyon on the floor of the ravine, because the shape of the ravine operates as a concave lense for a pressure wave from a blast high in the air. The shape of the ravine causes that the pressure on the two ribcages had been twice the value of the original pressure wave descending to the ground.
- Thibo had been standing on top of the ravine: the convex top diverts the original pressure causing a considerable lower reflection: he had been mainly hit by the original pressure, only half the pressure that Lyudmila and Semyon had have on their ribcage. Unconscious, Thibo had fallen sideways from the top to the bottom of the ravine: his head had hit a round stone in/near the stream.

In the theory that I have drafted, Zinaida had spent the night in the tent with Rustem - hint: they had been often on duty together according to their diaries. The next day, Zinaida and Rustem had placed the bodies of the other group members in the postures as found by the two search parties. While doing so in the ravine, Rustem had fallen and as a result had a crack in his skull. On the way back to the tent, Rustem had suddenly collapsed by brain damage: Zinaida had waited next to him until it had been obvious - that he was dead; she had turned him until his face was not visible anymore. At that time - somewhere 9 pm the next day, her hypothermia had progressed that she had been able to walk a small distance home - the tent in this case. 

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General Discussion / Re: Presence of water in the foothills of Kholat

« Last post by GlennM on May 17, 2025, 06:25:53 PM »

Arjan, I like your idea, but we must account for how water was to be carried back to camp. Does the inventory give us a clue? The criminal case does not mention what equipemnt the ravine 4 had with them. If three went for water, then who? What is your thinking about this, Arjan?

I think those who went for water would be fully clothed. I think they would ski down hill and shoulder their skis on the way back. It seems more reasonable to go for firewood rather than water. The fire supplis melt water and heat for cooking and warmth. Further, I think they would be smart and pack firewood from the labaz area.

I think if the last camp was pitched in order to tend to injured team members, there is little justification to trek a half mile into the forest. The same effort should be exerted to go back to the labaz and home.

The unknown compelling force was transient, else it would be known. For me, that means weather phenomona. However, it makes little sense to leave any shelter in a blizzard. It makes no sense to abandon a snow covered tent, if the combined effort of nine people could not clear the overburden. It makes no sense to blame killers. All behavior is motivated. There was none. Everybody leaves clues at a crime scene. It is inescapable. No crime, no clues.

The mystery is comparable to trying to determine what was thrown in a swimming pool by looking at the ripples.

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General Discussion / Re: Presence of water in the foothills of Kholat

« Last post by Arjan on May 17, 2025, 11:35:02 AM »

Until now I have read one reason why the group had made their campsite for the night at the tent-site: the journalist collective Aleksej Rakitin has made clear that the sun had already disappeared/set behind a mountain around 15:30 pm. Everyone who has been in the mountains knows that when the sun disappears behind a mountain-range it will start to get cold. According to my estimation, the group had arrived at the tentsite around 15 - 15:30 pm. This may have been caused by bad planning: the tracking record of planning of this group had not been flawless until the accent from the storage (in my opinion).

Another plausible reason is, the one or two group members had been injured during the climb from the storage due to e.g. a slide. Especially when the severity of the injury had not been clear, the tent site is an ideal place for òr continuing the tour when the injury had been minor òr returning when the injury had been worse. Possible injuries that make this kind of compromise logic are: brain concussion, bruises on the lower belly that may have caused internal bleedings. During the night the severity of this kind of injuries may be evaluated better than after the accident.

The consequences of the choice for the campsite had been: no liquid water available while no fuel and gazoline burner had been found among the possessions of the group.

The source of liquid water nearby had been: ..... the stream in the ravine!

It makes sense that some 5-6 group members had prepared the tentsite and the interior of the tent while 3 group members had descended - on foot and not on skis (because skis had been necessary as floor in the tent and walking back with water in buckets and skis in hands is more cumbersome than descending on foot - to the ravine. The walk/descend had taken around 15 minutes are so. The return trip might have taken around 20 minutes or so.
This calculation shows that the 3 group members might have been able to fetch water in the ravine and return to the tentsite well before local sunset around 17 pm at that date.


 

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Murdered / Re: Murder but why.

« Last post by Marc on May 17, 2025, 06:08:58 AM »

Yes, I still can't get the idea out of my head that the murder theory is the only explanation for the whole mystery. In addition, some of the injuries are very difficult to explain without the presence of strangers. Pathologist Eduard Tumanov also believes that it could be murder. He paid very good attention to the nature of the injuries, better than I ever could.

There are of course several problems with the murder theory, mainly the lack of traces of the attackers. We do have traces of the group leaving the tent, but there are no traces of the strangers. Thinking about it, one could put forward a theory that maybe the attackers were not near the tent. Maybe they were not in direct contact with the Dyatlov group at all. Or if they were, it was more likely to have happened near a ravine and a cedar.
So what would scare relatively experienced hikers out of their tents at night? How about rifle shots at night. This is certainly one possibility that scares everyone - especially in a remote place and at night. Someone shot repeatedly in the direction of the tent - to scare and force the group to leave the tent. The shooting could have continued repeatedly. Someone was watching them from a distance all this time, perhaps that is why we have no traces at the scene. This would also explain why the group did not dare to return to the tent immediately. They were a good target at the tent.
Perhaps everything that followed was a combination of bad luck and fear. Falling into the ravine, trying to make a fire (although they knew that they risked becoming a target). Perhaps the shooters waited a few hours and left. They knew that hypothermia would take its toll and the goal was achieved - to sadistically scare, regardless of human life.

An interesting entry for me is in a document that was listed in the criminal investigation as Kolmogorova's diary, but neither her handwriting nor her style matched the handwriting of another diary found among the personal belongings in the tent.

January 30 entry:
" ...Today as yesterday were are following the path of Mansi. Sometimes Mansi writings appear on trees. In general, all sorts of obscure mysterious characters. There is slogan for ​​our trek, "In a country of mysterious signs". If we knew these letters, it would be possible, without any doubt, to go down the path, confident that it would lead us to the right place. Here the trail takes us to the shores of the river. We lose track. In the future, the trail follows the left bank of Auspii river, but the team of deer crossed the river and we are going through the woods. At the first opportunity we will turn back to the river. As it is easier to follow it. At approximately 2 pm we stop for a lunch. Dried meat, guest crackers, sugar, garlic, coffee, stocked in the morning - that's our lunch.
Good mood..."

Of course, the Mansi hypothesis is just a hypothesis. But it is interesting precisely because of the context.

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Murdered / Murder but why.

« Last post by ahabmyth on May 16, 2025, 08:57:05 PM »

New member here- a bit confused by forums, haven't used them regularly.
So we are confused as to the how, well I believe that unless you believe in the supernatural, UFOs, Yeti etc that murder is the only reason. And the only reasonable argument.
My proposal is that the hikers were ambushed whilst in their tent slashing open the side. the hikers grabbed the clothes that were lying next to them no matter who owned them (dont forget it was dark). They were forced out into the snow but on seeing the probable 2-3 attackers with guns made a run for it downhill. Most of them made it quite a distance to the creek but a few individuals were caught (there are possibly a number of  shells around that were used to scare them but not kill them).  The people caught were ordered to remove some of their clothes and lie-down in the snow and were sometimes clubbed . Needless to say they froze to death. The two who made it to the Cedar attempted to hide by climbing the tree breaking several branches after thinking they got away they tried to make a fire but couldnt keep it going as no nearby fuel, the attackers caught up with them and like the others were forced to lay in the snow, they were positioned so they couldnt talk to each other. The attackers then caught upto the last 4 that were completely at their mercy. The hikers were clubbed with the rifle stocks and pushed into the creek. Obviously I cannot say for sure whether their attackers were Government or Mutsi but would lean to them being Mutsi as they are the only ones used to this weather and could survive in it.
Thanks for reading.
Just thinking. why not try for DNA, I realize its been a long time but if its possible to retrieve something from the Matsi hand me downs as in maybe a rifle or club and from the hikers it maybe possible for a match.