April 16, 2024, 12:53:53 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Being realistic  (Read 15859 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

January 23, 2021, 08:07:41 AM
Read 15859 times
Offline

GKM


How many people on this forum, or in the world, would set up camp at 3000 feet, in minus 20 degrees, only an estimate, with high winds, only probable,  and then leave their only shelter to walk, lightly dressed and without proper footwear, a mile down the slope to a forest? A place where they could have originally set up the tent and been much more comfortable. Nine intelligent, experienced, hikers did the exact opposite of what would have been expected, even for a group of novice hikers, which they certainly were not.
 

January 23, 2021, 08:22:19 AM
Reply #1
Offline

GKM


Let's continue. They were afraid of something in the forest? No Evidence of that, none whatsoever. Igor did not want to lose the height they had gained so he camped on the ridge? It was only a mile, easily made up for with an earlier start the next morning. It was planned that way? I simply do not believe that. Not a single one of them could have wanted to camp on that exposed ridge. They needed it for a Category 3 rating? No, they did not. It was already a Category 3 even without a cold overnight stay on the ridge. Absolutely nothing about camping on that ridge makes sense. There was no way these experienced hikers and reasonably intelligent people camped there.
 

January 23, 2021, 09:08:35 AM
Reply #2

DAXXY

Guest
It was normal practice to camp above the treeline if the expedition required it.  They were going to Mt. Ottorten 10km away the next day along the ridge. They made their store before climbing.  The previous years winter expedition was also high.

January 1958 six students from Sverdlovsk went to ascend winter Manaraga. They went to the eastern slope of the Urals, to the Severnaya Naroda base, in extreme conditions, without sleeping bags and a stove.



https://dyatlovpass.com/gallery-1958-Subpolar-Ural?lid=1
 

January 23, 2021, 10:19:28 AM
Reply #3
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
GKM, I am with you.  What is your assessment of what happened to the hikers?  Explosion?

Regards

Star man
 

January 23, 2021, 03:04:13 PM
Reply #4
Offline

RidgeWatcher


Quote
How many people on this forum, or in the world, would set up camp at 3000 feet, in minus 20 degrees, only an estimate, with high winds, only probable,  and then leave their only shelter to walk, lightly dressed and without proper footwear, a mile down the slope to a forest? A place where they could have originally set up the tent and been much more comfortable. Nine intelligent, experienced, hikers did the exact opposite of what would have been expected, even for a group of novice hikers, which they certainly were not.

One of my first posts on this website was regarding where they camped on Kholat Syakhl that fateful night. None of the Dyatlov hikers had been to that mountain prior to this trip. I will never believe they camped, if they even did, where the tent was found by their own free will. Regardless of the elevation the tent was found at, they supposedly climbed up there with limited daylight and were not going to take the hour to set up the stove? In that same amount of time they could have camped in the Cedar treeline. You see Dyatlov didn't know if there was a cliff or an ice ridge that they would have to go around in the morning to get to the Lovza river and Otorten. Dyatlov wouldn't have taken the hikers up there on the premise of some unknown morning advantage without knowing what Kholat Syakhl's north side difficulties entailed. By the time they reached the Dyatlov Pass/Mountain area it was already snowing too heavily, at least according to the photos (if real), to determine their trek in the morning. I am convinced Dyatlov would have never gambled on that unknown strategy.

Quote
GKM, I am with you.  What is your assessment of what happened to the hikers?  Explosion?

Regards

Star man

I went to prove the explosion theory wrong but I learned something that was surprising. Semyon and Lyuda's Flail Chest kept me away from determining the explosion scenario but I read that when Flail Chest is seen in explosion events it is not a primary injury but a secondary injury. That means when one body flies into another body, or a piece of debris is flies at a body. This is one way Flail Chest could have happened with limited external damage to the skin. An explosion event like Zina's could have wrapped her ski pole around her right torso to cause that deep tissue injury around her waist.

I keep asking myself this question: Disappearing act versus Re-staging act, why?

What, where, why, how and when caused it to be restaged? Was this ineptitude on a local level or initial decision making on a much higher level?
 

January 23, 2021, 03:46:46 PM
Reply #5

eurocentric

Guest
I've never believed they pitched where they did out of choice, the only logic I could work from stated evidence was someone, or simply the fear of them, drove them up there late in the day, unprepared, to be up high and out-of-reach overnight. Bar Semyon they were a vulnerable young group of city wussies, none of them would even square up to a drunk who accused them of stealing vodka on the train, and they were unarmed. For example, an altercation with the solitary deer hunter whose tracks they'd followed and whose recently abandoned camp they'd found, or to avoid the escapees they would hear about while at Vizhay, becoming more anxious the deeper they got into the wilderness.

The 1959 case resolution makes only short-term logic. It suggested they wished to attain and then retain altitude en route to Mount Otorten and would link this to the earlier difficulties they'd had wading through deep snow lower down, which had seen them decide to jettison the equivalent of a man's weight in provisions at the labaz, and in the last diary entry had become so tired they didn't bother having a fire pit outside.

However, they did something else at the labaz, they prepared firewood and left it there for their return loop back to Vizhay. They were thinking ahead, about staying warm in a forest. If they were to pitch on 1079 overnight, and then again on Otorten (Igor told Vizhayans he might pitch there) that would either mean 2 nights without adequate firewood up on 'the ridge', or descending the very next day to a forest to find more wood and then back up to Otorten.

Here, in a previous hike of Igor's, with the same tent and stove, and in better weather, with clear skies in most of the photo's, and low winds, was how well prepared they were then on the fuel front:



The man in charge of orchestrating the rescue initially thought, to work the logic, that they had planned to cross over the ridge at 1079 and drop down the other side, but were beaten back by high winds so fell back and pitched where they did, this mirroring the way they'd previously dropped back 1000m down a pass when it proved too difficult.

That at least made fuller logical sense than the purposefully attaining altitude theory, and having started their ascent, it was claimed, around 3pm, darkness would soon fall, and then this would leave them without adequate firewood for an all-night burn in a very exposed position - some wood was found in the corner of the tent, but it wasn't referred to as substantial, enough to support the retaining altitude theory.

The only suggestion there is of pitching on 1079, the ascent of which wasn't part of the hiking plan submitted to the university, comes from Igor's last diary entry, but the ambiguity needs to be read in the full context of what prefaced it. Note also, how with darkness falling at 4:29pm, they start looking to pitch the tent around 4pm, and yet set off up 1079 at 3?

31st January 1959
It's nearly 4. Have to start looking for a place to pitch the tent. We go south in the Auspiya valley. Seems this place has the deepest snow. Wind not strong, snow 1.22 m deep. We’re exhausted, but start setting up for the night. Firewood is scarce, mostly damp firs. We build the campfire on the logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. Dinner’s in the tent. Nice and warm. Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, with howling wind outside, hundreds of kilometers away from human settlements.


« Last Edit: January 23, 2021, 05:00:49 PM by eurocentric »
 

January 23, 2021, 03:47:43 PM
Reply #6
Offline

GKM


Star man, I find myself following your line of thinking. Some sort of explosive event. I do not believe what happened to the hikers was murder. I believe it was an accident. A man made accident but still an accident. I don't believe there was any intent to murder any of them
 

January 23, 2021, 04:02:15 PM
Reply #7
Offline

GKM


Those words written by Igor are taken literally by ALMOST everyone who reads them and I can't understand why. There is simply NO WAY  Igor or anyone else wanted to camp on that exposed ridge. I category refuse to believe that 3000 foot ridge was there destination. I believe, and it is merely my opinion, please do not scream about no evidence. I admit it is my opinion only, the tent was never on that ridge with the hikers inside it.I do not believe they walked down that mile to the forest, nor do I believe the 3 dead on the slope were attempting to return to a non existent slashed tent.
 

January 23, 2021, 05:04:09 PM
Reply #8
Offline

Manti


Why the "retaining altitude" explanation further makes no sense is that according to their route plan, but correct me if it's not from a credible source, so their route plan has them continuing in the Lozva valley after crossing the pass, i.e. they didn't plan to go to Otorten on the ridge.

And if they were afraid of something or someone in the forest, how would camping on the ridge offer any protection at all?




31st January 1959
It's nearly 4. Have to start looking for a place to pitch the tent. We go south in the Auspiya valley. Seems this place has the deepest snow. Wind not strong, snow 1.22 m deep. We’re exhausted, but start setting up for the night. Firewood is scarce, mostly damp firs. We build the campfire on the logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. Dinner’s in the tent. Nice and warm. Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, with howling wind outside, hundreds of kilometers away from human settlements.



Perhaps Russian speakers can categorically rule this our for us, but isn't it possible that this originally said "Couldn't have imagined such comfort", referring the nice and warm tent that night?


 

January 23, 2021, 05:14:55 PM
Reply #9

eurocentric

Guest
Anyone wishing to bother them later that night would have to brave an ascent in plummeting temperatures, with wind chill estimated to be at least -31C around 9pm, static temperature then -22C, and unless they commandeered the tent and flushed out the hikers when they arrived (another possible theory) they'd have to then descend, spending at least 3 hours all told in those conditions before being back at their own camp on lower ground.

An earlier set of hikers returned to Vizhay shortly after the Dyatlov group set out, and they had frostbite - that and death is the risk, so by placing yourself up high, you with your heated fort, a tent, you would seek to put off any conflicts until daylight, allowing your group to sleep.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2021, 05:21:50 PM by eurocentric »
 

January 23, 2021, 05:27:54 PM
Reply #10
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Star man, I find myself following your line of thinking. Some sort of explosive event. I do not believe what happened to the hikers was murder. I believe it was an accident. A man made accident but still an accident. I don't believe there was any intent to murder any of them

Yeah, that is what I think.  For those who don't believe the tent was pitched on Kholat, ( and as Eurocentric points out was probably in the forest), do you think the pattern of injuries reflects (and again I will quote Eurocentric - some burning calamity)  an explosion of some kind!

We have the rav 4 with significant traumas, all found together under several metres of snow.  Solter's statement suggest they were very dirty.  How could they be dirty in those conditions?   Smoke, dust, debris from an explosion?  When considering if the three on the slope were ever at the cedar, some time ago, I noticed how dirty Zina's hands were in the autopsy photos and I immediately thought, she had been lighting a fire.  The grime looks like oily smoke from a fire.  I can't think of any other really good reason why they would all be so dirty looking.  If there was an explosion, what sort of explosion and why?  They were in the middle of nowhere.   So what could have been going on there?  Possible options I have thought of:

1.  Military test or exercise -  its not a test area but can't rule it out.
2. Prospectors looking for mineral wealth -  i dont think so.
3.  Mistaken to be different people and attacked by military?  Possible?  Not sure
4. Crashed rocket/missile- possible but unlikely as not a test area and not on the missile lanes
5.  Crashed plane/jet, some kind of new secret plane -  possible but unlikely.
6.  Some kind of land mine?  I think there would be missing limbs and more devastating injuries due to the proximity
7.attacked by another group of hikers?  Why and how would they create an explosion?  Unlikely.
8.  The Snowmanc could be behind the hikers demise?  How do you go about catching a Yeti?


I am not an expert on weapons and have no fascination with them other than the dpi case, but I have read about thermobaric weapons which range in their size and devastation and are unique in that they create a pressure wave that kills and a vacuum, causing lungs to burst.  They use ethylene oxide or propylene oxide which if unburned is as toxic as a chemical weapon.  It looks like the hikers sustained some burns.  If you disregard the fire at the cedar, - burning ethylene oxide could cause the burns.  It is difficult to say though.  There would be alot of choking smoke and dust, a toxic oxygen depleted aftermath.  It would fit Eurocentric's choking, burning calamity?  It is clear that even the hikers that did not appear to suffer severe traumas did not die of hypothermia.  In fact the two Yuris probably lived the longest.  Their struggle for survival is written into all the superficial injuries and frost bite.  Zina was probably hit by debris and survived long enough to get some frost bite.

I think the Dyatlov group were good kids and good citizens of their country.  I think that the authorities wanted the proper respect paid to these kids.  I also think it was some kind of tragic accident and the real fault lies with a chain of human errors and not any single person(s).  I can only imagine the pain of having to live with these mistakes.  That is why I think it was covered up.  The damage was already done and there was great sadness.  Why make it any worse than it already was?

Regards

Star man
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 02:12:23 AM by Teddy »
 

January 23, 2021, 06:54:28 PM
Reply #11
Offline

Manti


It is clear that even the hikers that did not appear to suffer severe traumas did not die of hypothermia. 

What is the reason you say that?
I am not sure myself just curious if there is some additional information i didn't read.


 

January 24, 2021, 03:37:38 AM
Reply #12
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
How many people on this forum, or in the world, would set up camp at 3000 feet, in minus 20 degrees, only an estimate, with high winds, only probable,  and then leave their only shelter to walk, lightly dressed and without proper footwear, a mile down the slope to a forest? A place where they could have originally set up the tent and been much more comfortable. Nine intelligent, experienced, hikers did the exact opposite of what would have been expected, even for a group of novice hikers, which they certainly were not.

Good Post. Straight to the point. The only way that they or any other sensible people would have done that is if they had have been forced to do it. By force I mean something caused them to have to do that.
DB
 

January 24, 2021, 03:45:42 AM
Reply #13
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Let's continue. They were afraid of something in the forest? No Evidence of that, none whatsoever. Igor did not want to lose the height they had gained so he camped on the ridge? It was only a mile, easily made up for with an earlier start the next morning. It was planned that way? I simply do not believe that. Not a single one of them could have wanted to camp on that exposed ridge. They needed it for a Category 3 rating? No, they did not. It was already a Category 3 even without a cold overnight stay on the ridge. Absolutely nothing about camping on that ridge makes sense. There was no way these experienced hikers and reasonably intelligent people camped there.

it gets tricky when you bring up the question of Evidence. We know that there is a serious lack of Evidence in this Dyatlov Case. The only Evidence we have to suggest that they were scared of something in the Forest is that Photograph that no one can positively identify. It fits the description of many Big Foot type creatures, but it could also be another Human ! ?
DB
 

January 24, 2021, 03:49:51 AM
Reply #14
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It was normal practice to camp above the treeline if the expedition required it.  They were going to Mt. Ottorten 10km away the next day along the ridge. They made their store before climbing.  The previous years winter expedition was also high.

January 1958 six students from Sverdlovsk went to ascend winter Manaraga. They went to the eastern slope of the Urals, to the Severnaya Naroda base, in extreme conditions, without sleeping bags and a stove.



https://dyatlovpass.com/gallery-1958-Subpolar-Ural?lid=1

Normal practice ! ? Normal practice becomes irrelevant if weather conditions change to such an extent that its safer to camp somewhere less exposed if possible. And it was possible for the Dyatlov Group, because they would have had the shelter of the Valley and Forest.
DB
 

January 24, 2021, 03:54:45 AM
Reply #15
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Quote
How many people on this forum, or in the world, would set up camp at 3000 feet, in minus 20 degrees, only an estimate, with high winds, only probable,  and then leave their only shelter to walk, lightly dressed and without proper footwear, a mile down the slope to a forest? A place where they could have originally set up the tent and been much more comfortable. Nine intelligent, experienced, hikers did the exact opposite of what would have been expected, even for a group of novice hikers, which they certainly were not.

One of my first posts on this website was regarding where they camped on Kholat Syakhl that fateful night. None of the Dyatlov hikers had been to that mountain prior to this trip. I will never believe they camped, if they even did, where the tent was found by their own free will. Regardless of the elevation the tent was found at, they supposedly climbed up there with limited daylight and were not going to take the hour to set up the stove? In that same amount of time they could have camped in the Cedar treeline. You see Dyatlov didn't know if there was a cliff or an ice ridge that they would have to go around in the morning to get to the Lovza river and Otorten. Dyatlov wouldn't have taken the hikers up there on the premise of some unknown morning advantage without knowing what Kholat Syakhl's north side difficulties entailed. By the time they reached the Dyatlov Pass/Mountain area it was already snowing too heavily, at least according to the photos (if real), to determine their trek in the morning. I am convinced Dyatlov would have never gambled on that unknown strategy.

Quote
GKM, I am with you.  What is your assessment of what happened to the hikers?  Explosion?

Regards

Star man

I went to prove the explosion theory wrong but I learned something that was surprising. Semyon and Lyuda's Flail Chest kept me away from determining the explosion scenario but I read that when Flail Chest is seen in explosion events it is not a primary injury but a secondary injury. That means when one body flies into another body, or a piece of debris is flies at a body. This is one way Flail Chest could have happened with limited external damage to the skin. An explosion event like Zina's could have wrapped her ski pole around her right torso to cause that deep tissue injury around her waist.

I keep asking myself this question: Disappearing act versus Re-staging act, why?

What, where, why, how and when caused it to be restaged? Was this ineptitude on a local level or initial decision making on a much higher level?

I find it hard to believe that the Dyatlov Group didnt do any homework before they went on the expedition.  So I find it difficult to agree with what you say here and I quote ; ''You see Dyatlov didn't know if there was a cliff or an ice ridge''. And I dont believe any of the Staging stuff.
DB
 

January 24, 2021, 04:06:45 AM
Reply #16
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I've never believed they pitched where they did out of choice, the only logic I could work from stated evidence was someone, or simply the fear of them, drove them up there late in the day, unprepared, to be up high and out-of-reach overnight. Bar Semyon they were a vulnerable young group of city wussies, none of them would even square up to a drunk who accused them of stealing vodka on the train, and they were unarmed. For example, an altercation with the solitary deer hunter whose tracks they'd followed and whose recently abandoned camp they'd found, or to avoid the escapees they would hear about while at Vizhay, becoming more anxious the deeper they got into the wilderness.

The 1959 case resolution makes only short-term logic. It suggested they wished to attain and then retain altitude en route to Mount Otorten and would link this to the earlier difficulties they'd had wading through deep snow lower down, which had seen them decide to jettison the equivalent of a man's weight in provisions at the labaz, and in the last diary entry had become so tired they didn't bother having a fire pit outside.

However, they did something else at the labaz, they prepared firewood and left it there for their return loop back to Vizhay. They were thinking ahead, about staying warm in a forest. If they were to pitch on 1079 overnight, and then again on Otorten (Igor told Vizhayans he might pitch there) that would either mean 2 nights without adequate firewood up on 'the ridge', or descending the very next day to a forest to find more wood and then back up to Otorten.

Here, in a previous hike of Igor's, with the same tent and stove, and in better weather, with clear skies in most of the photo's, and low winds, was how well prepared they were then on the fuel front:



The man in charge of orchestrating the rescue initially thought, to work the logic, that they had planned to cross over the ridge at 1079 and drop down the other side, but were beaten back by high winds so fell back and pitched where they did, this mirroring the way they'd previously dropped back 1000m down a pass when it proved too difficult.

That at least made fuller logical sense than the purposefully attaining altitude theory, and having started their ascent, it was claimed, around 3pm, darkness would soon fall, and then this would leave them without adequate firewood for an all-night burn in a very exposed position - some wood was found in the corner of the tent, but it wasn't referred to as substantial, enough to support the retaining altitude theory.

The only suggestion there is of pitching on 1079, the ascent of which wasn't part of the hiking plan submitted to the university, comes from Igor's last diary entry, but the ambiguity needs to be read in the full context of what prefaced it. Note also, how with darkness falling at 4:29pm, they start looking to pitch the tent around 4pm, and yet set off up 1079 at 3?

31st January 1959
It's nearly 4. Have to start looking for a place to pitch the tent. We go south in the Auspiya valley. Seems this place has the deepest snow. Wind not strong, snow 1.22 m deep. We’re exhausted, but start setting up for the night. Firewood is scarce, mostly damp firs. We build the campfire on the logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. Dinner’s in the tent. Nice and warm. Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, with howling wind outside, hundreds of kilometers away from human settlements.

You say and I quote ; ''Bar Semyon they were a vulnerable young group of city wussies, none of them would even square up to a drunk who accused them of stealing vodka on the train, and they were unarmed''. Well by all accounts they were all experienced outdoors people. And outdoors in Siberia is serious stuff. They knew the situation as they moved up the Valley and Forest. Something impelled them.
DB
 

January 24, 2021, 04:09:59 AM
Reply #17
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Those words written by Igor are taken literally by ALMOST everyone who reads them and I can't understand why. There is simply NO WAY  Igor or anyone else wanted to camp on that exposed ridge. I category refuse to believe that 3000 foot ridge was there destination. I believe, and it is merely my opinion, please do not scream about no evidence. I admit it is my opinion only, the tent was never on that ridge with the hikers inside it.I do not believe they walked down that mile to the forest, nor do I believe the 3 dead on the slope were attempting to return to a non existent slashed tent.

No one is screaming about Evidence. Its just that in order to eventually prove what actually happened Evidence would be needed. Speculation has its place but at the end of the day we know what is needed. Evidence.
DB
 

January 24, 2021, 04:16:40 AM
Reply #18
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Why the "retaining altitude" explanation further makes no sense is that according to their route plan, but correct me if it's not from a credible source, so their route plan has them continuing in the Lozva valley after crossing the pass, i.e. they didn't plan to go to Otorten on the ridge.

And if they were afraid of something or someone in the forest, how would camping on the ridge offer any protection at all?




31st January 1959
It's nearly 4. Have to start looking for a place to pitch the tent. We go south in the Auspiya valley. Seems this place has the deepest snow. Wind not strong, snow 1.22 m deep. We’re exhausted, but start setting up for the night. Firewood is scarce, mostly damp firs. We build the campfire on the logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. Dinner’s in the tent. Nice and warm. Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, with howling wind outside, hundreds of kilometers away from human settlements.



Perhaps Russian speakers can categorically rule this our for us, but isn't it possible that this originally said "Couldn't have imagined such comfort", referring the nice and warm tent that night?


Good question and I quote ; ''And if they were afraid of something or someone in the forest, how would camping on the ridge offer any protection at all?''.  Maybe this is where a bit of good old fashioned Human scaredness comes in. They could have had a terrifying experience and that impelled them to the Mountainside.
DB
 

January 24, 2021, 04:24:58 AM
Reply #19
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It is clear that even the hikers that did not appear to suffer severe traumas did not die of hypothermia. 

What is the reason you say that?
I am not sure myself just curious if there is some additional information i didn't read.

It isnt clear at all how any of the Dyatlov Group met their demise, apart from the obvious injuries. There are plenty of injuries and some of them wouldnt have been significant enough to cause death under normal circumstances. But some injuries clearly would have caused death ie those to Dubinina.
DB
 

January 24, 2021, 06:02:18 AM
Reply #20
Offline

cennetkusu


One reason the tent is set up on the ridge may be something they saw or heard in the forest. In other words, they were afraid of the forest and camped on the mountain ridge without ever descending into the forest. Or, as it was said in an article I read before, the young people had set up a camp in the forest. But before they could stay there, they hastily left. They took refuge in the mountain, which was the safest for them. Because when man feels danger in nature, he runs towards the highest place !!! And if you're in a tent and it's freezing outside, and there's an entity outside that you fear a lot, you'll never go out. So there must be something to force them out of the tent. These can be examined under 3 main headings. 1. Natural events 2. Other people 3. Unknown entity (s) There is no other option than these 3 options. From here, at first glance, the least likely natural phenomena ..... Because there is no avalanche, no animal attack and it is obvious that they do not die from the cold ... . So the chance of this possibility is very low .... So we need to look at the other 2 options. It is possible that young people are brought to this state by humans ... But there is no evidence for this, and why? how? Who? There are no answers to many questions etc. However, the injuries that occur in the abdominal den are less likely to be caused by human hand. And the last option remains. Unknown coercive force. Events like this have happened from time to time on various dates and places around the world. In other words, panoramic events that cannot be explained scientifically… like the Bermuda triangle… It is certain that Rav 4 and the three young people on the slope were killed. Everyone can see this easily. It seems that the whole incident took place within 3-4 hours. In this horrible incident, the young people seem to be faced with a force they cannot resist. this force attacked them !!! And he tore the tent !!! Young people have used whatever they have against the unknown force. They defended themselves bravely. They resisted for a while .... But when they saw that it was not beneficial (the stick in their hands could not damage the unknown force, ax, knife, etc.) and the unknown force forced them out of the tent, they had to leave ....
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 07:58:58 AM by Teddy »
You're alone and desperate. Connect with God, you won't be alone and you're a saint.
 

January 24, 2021, 07:17:55 AM
Reply #21
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It is clear that even the hikers that did not appear to suffer severe traumas did not die of hypothermia. 

What is the reason you say that?
I am not sure myself just curious if there is some additional information i didn't read.

Maybe should have said it is clear that some of them did not die of hypothermia.  Its based on urine content of bladder, and frost bite.  If there was a choking firery calamity then those who survive the initial explosion would have been faced with two hazards; the cold and toxicity.  Would explain the lack of a toxicology report even though tissue samples were taken for analysis.

Regards

Star man
 

January 24, 2021, 08:49:54 AM
Reply #22
Online

MDGross


I often think of the DPI as a chess game. Just when the evidence seems to have the King cornered, he finds a way to escape. Every time the King escapes. On the last night, did the group pitch the tent somewhere other than the mountain slope? Perhaps, but "loose photos" 11 and 12 show them preparing to pitch the tent in what looks like a wide-open space such as on a mountain slope. Are men standing just out of the photos holding guns on them? Perhaps, but then how to explain the whimsical "Daily Otorten," which, according to the date on the masthead, was written that night. How could the hikers be under severe duress, yet have such fun?
 

January 24, 2021, 09:20:08 AM
Reply #23

eurocentric

Guest
Those words written by Igor are taken literally by ALMOST everyone who reads them and I can't understand why. There is simply NO WAY  Igor or anyone else wanted to camp on that exposed ridge. I category refuse to believe that 3000 foot ridge was there destination. I believe, and it is merely my opinion, please do not scream about no evidence. I admit it is my opinion only, the tent was never on that ridge with the hikers inside it.I do not believe they walked down that mile to the forest, nor do I believe the 3 dead on the slope were attempting to return to a non existent slashed tent.

One thing which made me wonder if Igor actually wrote that, in the context of any cover-up and forgery, was the way it ends, where he suggests that being on the ridge would place them "hundreds of kilometers away from human settlements", when certainly that ridge, the peak known as 1079, would be around 80kms from Vizhay, and Otorten 90, so it's a bit of an exaggeration, but perhaps it's a mistranslation and it should read a hundred singular.

"The ridge", when it's referenced in some of the case files, actually refers to the series of interconnecting high points along the Ural ridge, of which 1079 was just one peak, and I read mention of how it was considered Igor might not have realised he was actually climbing 'the ridge', where it was known the weather could suddenly turn and winds become so bad one man related how he'd been trapped there, in a hollow, for 6 days.

There is also a contradiction in the notion they did this to overcome the previous exhaustion of travelling through deep snow on the passes, to gain altitude, when they would have crucified themselves if setting off at 3pm to ascend, dig a 3ft deep 12 x 4ft trench, set up a tent with extra complexity due to a 30 degree slope and exposed position, and then put all their gear inside.

It would have been a lot less tiring to simply head to the forest, and perhaps tackle a climb the next morning, they might even have made it to Otorten that same day, avoiding two nights on 'the ridge', and wouldn't have had to race the early sundown, something which risked hypothermia from being sweated out.

If then sat in an unheated tent there is the danger people trying to air themselves off may remain paradoxically undressed, because after taking off clothing when warmer (to air themselves off) their body temperature then falls due to the unheated environment, and they continue to feel warm enough due to hypothermia's gradual encroachment, so do not recover the situation by redressing themselves.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 12:29:58 PM by eurocentric »
 

January 24, 2021, 02:12:07 PM
Reply #24
Offline

Manti


From here, at first glance, the least likely natural phenomena ..... Because there is no avalanche, no animal attack and it is obvious that they do not die from the cold
I don't think a small avalanche can be completely ruled out, either at the ravine or at the ridge but not reaching the forest, perhaps stopped by the stony ridges.

Same for an animal attack, in fact I encourage everyone to look at some elk attack videos on Youtube. I am not saying it would explain everything but elk apparently charge people and jump and kick at their head/upper torso. You might ask why elk would attack people but in this forest, the people they mostly meet are hunters with guns going after them or their little ones.

And no it's not obvious that they did not die from the cold. They might have been used to the cold, Sverdlovsk where they lived also experiences temperatures of -15C in the winter or less, but just think of the difference between +20C and 0C. The difference between comfort and freezing. That is the same difference as between -15C and -35C, for example. In fact leaving the tent in the clothes they did, or even staying inside the tent without heating, what can be said is that it would have been inevitable they would die of the cold sooner or later. But yes it's possible some of them died of other injuries before the cold got them.
Maybe should have said it is clear that some of them did not die of hypothermia.  Its based on urine content of bladder, and frost bite.  If there was a choking firery calamity then those who survive the initial explosion would have been faced with two hazards; the cold and toxicity.  Would explain the lack of a toxicology report even though tissue samples were taken for analysis.

I think generally the usual hypothermia symptoms are in well nourished people who for some reason get stuck in a somewhat cold environment, for example their car breaks down in the winter, and slowly succumb to the cold. Being out in -35C windchill or less, heat loss is a very fast process and for example the body might not have time to fill up the bladder. Or they might have been dehydrated to begin with, due to no means of melting snow or carrying liquids because these would freeze in their flasks. And they did have frostbite.

Looking at the case files, it does appear that for example mentions of radiation were removed (crossed out sections, and entire pages removed), then later in modern times added back to the archive. The toxicology report never seems to have arrived. But indeed it is strange there is no mention of even that fact.


But is it even meaningful to do a toxicology test 4 weeks+ after death? And in case of the Rav4 much later and after they have been in a stream for a week or so? Depends on the substance but most would either be metabolized by cells before that, or if it's bacterial for example, it would be impossible to tell if the bacteria were present during life or only started growing after death, at least in the Rav4 who presumably thawed before they were found.


 

January 24, 2021, 03:55:04 PM
Reply #25
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
What about the grey foam from Yuri D's mouth?  Is that a symptom of hypothermia?  This is not something I am familiar with.  But I do know that flail chests, and burnt hair, and legs, massive skull fractures and deformed necks are not symptoms of hypothermia.

Regards

Star man
 

January 24, 2021, 03:58:59 PM
Reply #26

DAXXY

Guest
What about the grey foam from Yuri D's mouth?  Is that a symptom of hypothermia?  This is not something I am familiar with.  But I do know that flail chests, and burnt hair, and legs, massive skull fractures and deformed necks are not symptoms of hypothermia.

Regards

Star man

Yes pulmonary edema.  also the cutting off of clothes is paradoxical undressing, the burning and bite mark could be due to loss of their sensations due to hypothermia.  It's also a bad thing to expose a hypothermia victim to direct heat.  It draws the blood from the inner vital organs that need it back out to the skin. They can die quicker like that. They have to be warmed slowly away from direct heat.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2021, 04:03:28 PM by DAXXY »
 

January 24, 2021, 03:59:31 PM
Reply #27
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I often think of the DPI as a chess game. Just when the evidence seems to have the King cornered, he finds a way to escape. Every time the King escapes. On the last night, did the group pitch the tent somewhere other than the mountain slope? Perhaps, but "loose photos" 11 and 12 show them preparing to pitch the tent in what looks like a wide-open space such as on a mountain slope. Are men standing just out of the photos holding guns on them? Perhaps, but then how to explain the whimsical "Daily Otorten," which, according to the date on the masthead, was written that night. How could the hikers be under severe duress, yet have such fun?

What if the hikers were already dead when those photographs were taken?

Regards

Star man
 

January 24, 2021, 04:02:24 PM
Reply #28
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
What about the grey foam from Yuri D's mouth?  Is that a symptom of hypothermia?  This is not something I am familiar with.  But I do know that flail chests, and burnt hair, and legs, massive skull fractures and deformed necks are not symptoms of hypothermia.

Regards

Star man

Yes pulmonary edema.  also the cutting off of clothes is paradoxical undressing, the burning and bite mark could be due to loss of their sensations due to hypothermia.

But only Yuri D had grey foam..  why cut clothes off.  We are led to believe that their friends cut them off to use?  The flail chests, and skull fractures and deformed neck aren't symptoms of hypothermia. They are symptoms of an explosion.

Regards

Star man
 

January 24, 2021, 04:05:13 PM
Reply #29

DAXXY

Guest
pulmonary edema.  also the cutting off of clothes is paradoxical undressing, the burning and bite mark could be due to loss of their sensations due to hypothermia.  It's also a bad thing to expose a hypothermia victim to direct heat.  It draws the blood from the inner vital organs that need it back out to the skin. They can die quicker like that. They have to be warmed slowly away from direct heat.

and crush injuries from collapsed snow den