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Author Topic: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact  (Read 35054 times)

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December 06, 2018, 07:08:10 AM
Reply #30
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Also ozone - BP -112C could keep them away from the tent.
And immediately bleach the tent white. Why are we playing this silly game? What's next, reindeer farts?

Welp, there goes the ozone - BP -112C  idea.     clap1
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

December 06, 2018, 07:29:59 AM
Reply #31
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Nigel Evans


Also ozone - BP -112C could keep them away from the tent.
And immediately bleach the tent white. Why are we playing this silly game? What's next, reindeer farts?

Welp, there goes the ozone - BP -112C  idea.     clap1
It would depend on the ozone concentration and waxing/proofing of the canvas..... and it could weaken the fabric resulting in tearing in the wind....  thanky1
But ozone isn't a key factor in the narrative, NO2 has to be there to explain the orange skin and foaming mouth. It could be dissolved in an aerosol/mist from microwave warming which would melt the atmospheric snow/graupnel which would mean that the nitric acid was already forming. They could have been breathing a vinegar mist.
 

December 06, 2018, 10:22:01 AM
Reply #32
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
But....  there is already an explanation for the orange skin.    explode1
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

December 06, 2018, 10:47:06 AM
Reply #33
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Nigel Evans


But....  there is already an explanation for the orange skin.    explode1
Remind me.


 

December 08, 2018, 08:05:28 AM
Reply #34
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Jacques-Emile


Finally, we have a person on the board to evaluate others' opinions!  Congratulations!
Since you are taking this position, I suggest that you use Karl Popper's philosophy of the evaluation of scientific hypotheses. (See https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/popper/
A summary:
Quote
Popper accordingly repudiates induction and rejects the view that it is the characteristic method of scientific investigation and inference, substituting falsifiability in its place. It is easy, he argues, to obtain evidence in favour of virtually any theory, and he consequently holds that such ‘corroboration’, as he terms it, should count scientifically only if it is the positive result of a genuinely ‘risky’ prediction, which might conceivably have been false. For Popper, a theory is scientific only if it is refutable by a conceivable event.
If you use Popper's logic, the suggestion that NO2 is present as a gas in the tent is subject to the refutation that NO2 cannot exist as a gas at these temperatures.  Application of Popper's rules to a hypothesis is most certainly indeed a half decent contribution to solving this mystery in refuting a false hypothesis.
Anyone, of course, may extend the hypothesis with further conditions, such as the presence of a mechanical device to manufacture warm NO2 gas in the tent.  Yes, of course, that overcomes this refutation by temperature.  One can continue to apply bandages to one's proposals to cover the wounds placed by reality.
For my friends who wish to submit hypotheses for your evaluation, I suggest that we not be lazy.  We should try to come up with ideas that are not instantly refutable by scientific principles present at the site at that time.  This also includes irrefutable propositions like the Vaviaga, the Fallen Angels, the Ball of Ligtning.  These cannot be refuted using science.  Popper suggests that the irrefutable cannot be scientific.
 

December 08, 2018, 09:25:17 AM
Reply #35
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Nigel Evans


Finally, we have a person on the board to evaluate others' opinions!  Congratulations!
Q. Who was it that asked - "Why are we playing this silly game?". dance1
Wrt the content of your post referring to the bp of NO2 - you are omitting the possibility of a transient situation where a microwave field upstream in the wind (perhaps as photographed by Semyon) heats the air and said NO2 which then passes across the tent. I like the idea that this plume is electrically attracted to earth through the tent but it's not a key feature of the narrative just a nice to have, ditto ozone. The plume raises the temperature of the surrounding snow, creating the conditions for sastrugi, persistent footsteps and a hot spot. It's even possible that this plume was hot enough that they quickly exited the tent to escape the heat.... It would fit with this narrative that the plume is relatively narrow so that the group stand nearby and consider their options and also that Semyon and Nikolai escape it's effects.

As for Popper, the goal here is not to construct scientific theories but to create plausible narratives that can survive (sensible) criticism.


 

December 08, 2018, 11:51:59 AM
Reply #36
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Jacques-Emile


You do realize that what you just posted is nonsense, no? Microwave bands don't just appear like brooms in the Sorcerer's Apprentice?!
 

December 08, 2018, 12:08:24 PM
Reply #37
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Nigel Evans


You do realize that what you just posted is nonsense, no? Microwave bands don't just appear like brooms in the Sorcerer's Apprentice?!
Bands? Brooms?
You accept that microwaves create NO2 yes?So why can't that NO2 blow downwind as a plume?
 

December 08, 2018, 04:34:19 PM
Reply #38
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Jacques-Emile


You do realize that what you just posted is nonsense, no? Microwave bands don't just appear like brooms in the Sorcerer's Apprentice?!
Bands? Brooms?
You accept that microwaves create NO2 yes?So why can't that NO2 blow downwind as a plume?
So that is how they warmed up their cocoa?  And they all walked down the hill in search of an electrical plug for extension cord?  I suppose so.
 

December 09, 2018, 02:51:31 AM
Reply #39
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Nigel Evans



So that is how they warmed up their cocoa?  And they all walked down the hill in search of an electrical plug for extension cord?  I suppose so.



My purpose for posting here is to try and develop a plausible narrative for the DPI.
What's yours?
 

December 09, 2018, 02:12:40 PM
Reply #40
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Nigel Evans


 

December 09, 2018, 03:04:19 PM
Reply #41
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

December 10, 2018, 04:48:04 AM
Reply #42
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Nigel Evans


 

December 10, 2018, 05:17:47 AM
Reply #43
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Nigel Evans




https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK138707/
"While the boiling point of nitrogen dioxide is 21.15 °C, in normal ambient conditions its low partial pressure in the atmosphere (908 mmHg at 25 °C) prevents condensation so that it exists in the air in its gaseous form."
 

December 10, 2018, 07:15:57 AM
Reply #44
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK138707/
"While the boiling point of nitrogen dioxide is 21.15 °C, in normal ambient conditions its low partial pressure in the atmosphere (908 mmHg at 25 °C) prevents condensation so that it exists in the air in its gaseous form, has a sharp/shinny point on one end, has an expanding vapor trail, and flies through the air similar to a rocket."

Fixed it for ya.    wink1
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

December 10, 2018, 07:33:57 AM
Reply #45
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Nigel Evans




https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK138707/
"While the boiling point of nitrogen dioxide is 21.15 °C, in normal ambient conditions its low partial pressure in the atmosphere (908 mmHg at 25 °C) prevents condensation so that it exists in the air in its gaseous form, has a sharp/shinny point on one end, has an expanding vapor trail, and flies through the air similar to a rocket."

Fixed it for ya.    wink1
Ever helpful. kewl1
 

December 10, 2018, 09:25:04 AM
Reply #46
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Humans are strange.  Fun starts at 0:30


All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

December 10, 2018, 09:29:28 AM
Reply #47
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Nigel Evans


I looked very hard but couldn't see a sharp shiny point..   dance1
 

December 10, 2018, 10:30:54 AM
Reply #48
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Jacques-Emile


So what?  The kinetics of condensation from NO2 to N2O4 are relatively slow.  So what?  You're still invoking majick.  I do not see why you are enjoying trolling this board so much with garbage.  Please continue, I will not read your submissions.  Looking up WHO Guidelines for Indoor Air Quality for chemical kinetics is just ignorant.

If you want to find out about the kinetics N2O4 first order it is here: https://webbook.nist.gov/cgi/inchi/InChI=1S/N2O4/c3-1(4)2(5)6 and about NO2 the condensation kinetics second order are here: https://kinetics.nist.gov/kinetics/ReactionSearch?r0=10102440&r1=10102440&r2=0&r3=0&r4=0&p0=10544726&p1=0&p2=0&p3=0&p4=0&expandResults=true&
If this is still magick to you and I'm absolutely sure it is, ask a real chemist what is going on, don't go looking up crap on Internet.  This is why people think Dyatlov mystery is stupid because of absurd postings.
 

December 10, 2018, 10:33:24 AM
Reply #49
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Nigel Evans


If nitrous oxide (N2O) was also a component of this plume then they could be affected by laughing gas... = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide
Then you've got an explanation for a lack of judgement and collecting various injuries :-"Exposure to nitrous oxide causes short-term decreases in mental performance, audiovisual ability, and manual dexterity.[25] These effects coupled with the induced spatial and temporal disorientation could result in physical harm to the user from environmental hazards."
 

December 10, 2018, 10:37:57 AM
Reply #50
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Nigel Evans


So what?  The kinetics of condensation from NO2 to N2O4 are relatively slow.  So what?  You're still invoking majick.  I do not see why you are enjoying trolling this board so much with garbage.  Please continue, I will not read your submissions.  Looking up WHO Guidelines for Indoor Air Quality for chemical kinetics is just ignorant.

If you want to find out about the kinetics N2O4 first order it is here: https://webbook.nist.gov/cgi/inchi/InChI=1S/N2O4/c3-1(4)2(5)6 and about NO2 the condensation kinetics second order are here: https://kinetics.nist.gov/kinetics/ReactionSearch?r0=10102440&r1=10102440&r2=0&r3=0&r4=0&p0=10544726&p1=0&p2=0&p3=0&p4=0&expandResults=true&
If this is still magick to you and I'm absolutely sure it is, ask a real chemist what is going on, don't go looking up crap on Internet.  This is why people think Dyatlov mystery is stupid because of absurd postings.
I welcome arguing these points with you but just throwing links at me isn't making an argument.

The plume under discussion could be above 20C (well above). Condensation is not critical path.
 

December 10, 2018, 05:33:39 PM
Reply #51
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact.  But whats the point of this theory  !  ?  It doesnt go any way to explaining the sequence of events and the various injuries on the bodies.
DB
 

December 11, 2018, 01:15:08 AM
Reply #52
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Nigel Evans


Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact.  But whats the point of this theory  !  ?  It doesnt go any way to explaining the sequence of events and the various injuries on the bodies.
It explains :-
Why they left the tent.
Why they stood in a line some distance from the tent.
Why the area around the tent was covered in sastrugi and the hot spot.
Why the footsteps were so persistent (powder doesn't behave like that).
Why Yuri D had foam on his cheek.
Why Yuri D and Zina had dark orange faces at their funerals.Why Lyudmila had a yellow brown face but a white chin. It also provides an explanation for Chivruay.

It fits in with the electro magnetic phenomena narrative that explains the ravine injuries as from impact/crushing from ball lightning rollers - Ivanov's fire orbs.
It also gives a plausible reason (nitrous oxide) for some very bad decision making and an injury profile resulting from increased clumsiness.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 01:29:31 AM by Nigel Evans »
 

December 11, 2018, 04:36:19 AM
Reply #53
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Nigel Evans


Here's another plume. Although i think the tadpole theory is a bit wild myself. Whatever next broomsticks? Mugs of cocoa? Sharp pointy rockets?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tadpole-shaped-ufo-filmed-flying-13437661
 

December 11, 2018, 07:17:53 AM
Reply #54
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Quote
Why the area around the tent was covered in sastrugi and the hot spot.

Wild Speculation with zero corroborating evidence. 


Quote
Why Yuri D and Zina had dark orange faces at their funerals.Why Lyudmila had a yellow brown face but a white chin

Prove it.    nose1
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

December 11, 2018, 07:46:56 AM
Reply #55
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Nigel Evans


Quote
Why the area around the tent was covered in sastrugi and the hot spot.

Wild Speculation with zero corroborating evidence. 


Quote
Why Yuri D and Zina had dark orange faces at their funerals.Why Lyudmila had a yellow brown face but a white chin

Prove it.    nose1

Shavarin stated they had to dismount from their skis approaching the tent because the snow was too rough (and hard) to ski over? The hot spot is there for all to see. But there are none so blind as those that will not dance1


You should try and read articles on this site they're quite informative...

https://dyatlovpass.com/funerals-1959?lid=1#12mayWitness testimony of Rimma Kolevatova given on April 14 (Case files pages 270-272).
This is before the body of her brother was found. "I was present at all the funerals of the group. Why were their faces and hands all so dark brown?
Recollection of relatives and eyewitnesses at the funeral, given almost fifty years after the tragedy, mention the dark orange color of the skin, reminiscent of the color of bricks. Though unusual, nothing of this was recorded in the official records of the autopsies. At that time, all photography was black and white, so there are no color pictures of the dead. Some say that only the exposed skin was darker in color, that the skin under their clothes what could be seen (it was Zina family member who witnessed this), was not so unnaturally colored.


N.B. no record of this was made at autopsies because the skin hadn't darkened at this point the bodies had been frozen and this would retard the nitric acid - keratin reaction which gives the dark orange brown colour.(n.b. here i'm making some assumptions, i'm not a biochemist). Compare the morgue photo of Yuri D and Zina with the funeral shots. The pathologist didn't record it because he didn't see it.

From Lyudmila's post mortem -

The skin of the face is of yellowish brown colour.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 215). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. Again from a non biochemist  - the nitric acid had enough time to take effect including warming in the spring thaw. Note her white chin on the morgue photo, protective scarf? Chin pushed in snow at point of death resulting in dilution of NO2/nitric acid?


Q.E.D.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 07:51:53 AM by Nigel Evans »
 

December 11, 2018, 02:19:42 PM
Reply #56
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Nigel Evans


 

December 11, 2018, 03:28:14 PM
Reply #57
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Space junk.   What goes up, must come down.
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

December 11, 2018, 03:40:17 PM
Reply #58
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Nigel Evans


But the young woman, who has not been named, said the object did not fly through the sky.
Instead the witness said she picked up her camera to film the object as it motionlessly chugged out the smoke before vanishing into the sky.
She told 20 Minuten: “The object with the tail just stood in the sky and it did not move for two or three minutes.”
The object then rapidly reared back into life and “turned to the right and disappeared” the witness recounted.
 

December 11, 2018, 05:11:24 PM
Reply #59
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
But the young woman, who has not been named, said the object did not fly through the sky.
Instead the witness said she picked up her camera to film the object as it motionlessly chugged out the smoke before vanishing into the sky.
She told 20 Minuten: “The object with the tail just stood in the sky and it did not move for two or three minutes.”
The object then rapidly reared back into life and “turned to the right and disappeared” the witness recounted.

Do I need to repost the vid with dumb idiots going stupid thinking the aliens are invading the planet simply because their inbreed azz cant tell the dif between a rocket and a piloted fireball?   If you believe everything crazed morons say, I have a bridge to sell you.
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!