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Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: The "Window" in the cedar tree  (Read 15921 times)

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September 25, 2022, 03:13:25 PM
Reply #30

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:03:32 PM by Charles »
 

September 25, 2022, 03:26:01 PM
Reply #31

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:03:41 PM by Charles »
 

September 25, 2022, 07:52:55 PM
Reply #32
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Ziljoe


Hi Charles,

The quotes you use and then highlight in bold , in my opinion are misleading. For example , you select these specific phrase's

"External examination showed damage, such as multiple abrasions and skin wounds caused by a blunt object that could occur as the result of falling or bruising against stones, ice, and other objects.(...) The death is violent and accidental."

By selecting bits of quotes , it does not communicate the complete narrative.

The quote"Wounds caused by a blunt object " also has example's and an explanation offered. "that could occur as the result of falling or bruising against stones, ice" no where does it say it was a rifle butt or otherwise.

Dr Vozrozhdenny's conclusion was through violence to the body. It's all he can conclude.

He says "the death is violent and accidental". Which is a bit of an oxymoron but accidental is the conclusion , which is why they say "compelling overwhelming force"

Having had a Google on natural force and what it means.

What is Natural Forces
1.Events that occur in the environment due to nature and one that is not under the control of human beings.

Nowhere do they say they found evidence
Of violence in the sense it was done by others. It's speculation and much of this speculation is done after the media release the information of the ravine 4. It's basically been fudged up through years of books and pure speculation.

Having read more, thought and considered things, I believe the stream was dammed before they even excavated the ravine 4, the photo of LYUDMILA DUBININA in the stream might not even tell the full story of how her body was resting under the snow. I now think she may have been floating before they dammed the stream which would explain how she came to rest in that exact position. It was also reported that it was the clothes of the ravine 4 that were holding the bodies together . Again it's just food for thought but the searchers weren't looking for murder, it is only later they speculate.

 Dr Vozrozhdenny said what he believes  may have caused some of the injuries and I think the word "violence " is used in the context of a "force" and this force is concluded to be a natural force. That is all that is reported.....so I'm with GlennM

For those that think it was outsiders, I am fine with it and wait to be convinced....
 

September 25, 2022, 08:41:05 PM
Reply #33
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Игорь Б.


В России несчастный случай считается насильственной смертью:
Quote
Родами насильственной смерти являются: убийство, самоубийство, несчастный случай.
https://www.forens-med.ru/book.php?id=386

Утонул, упал с высоты, ударило молнией, замёрз, попал под поезд, автомобиль - всё это насильственная смерть.

An example of the impact of chemical weapons of a skunk (wolverine) in a tent:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=117054
 

September 26, 2022, 12:20:29 AM
Reply #34
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Ziljoe



Thank you Igor B

В России несчастный случай считается насильственной смертью:
Quote
Родами насильственной смерти являются: убийство, самоубийство, несчастный случай.
https://www.forens-med.ru/book.php?id=386

Утонул, упал с высоты, ударило молнией, замёрз, попал под поезд, автомобиль - всё это насильственная смерть.



Igor B writes:

In Russia, an accident is considered a violent death:

The types of violent death are: murder, suicide, accident.

He drowned, fell from a height, was struck by lightning, froze, got hit by a train, a car - all this is a violent death.
 

September 26, 2022, 12:49:02 AM
Reply #35
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Ziljoe


@charles

Here's the full conclusion for Zina. I won't go through them all but I'll highlight, in bold what Dr Vozrozhdenny said was the cause of death.

Sheet 134

CONCLUSION

Based on the investigation of the body of Kolmogorova Zinaida Alekseevna, 22 years old, and taking into account the circumstances of the case, we feel that the death of Kolmogorova was the result of cool temperatures/freezing, as evidenced by the swelling of the meninges, the hyperaemia of the internal organs, the dark liquid blood in the heart cavities, the Wischnewsky spots on the gastric mucosa, and the fourth-degree frostbite on the third distal phalanges of the fingers; the injuries found on Kolmogorova’s body in the form of abrasions and skin wounds were caused by a blunt instrument and the result of a fall and injuries on rocks, ice and snow.

The above-mentioned injuries occurred while Kolmogorova was alive, in the agonal state, and posthumously.

The investigation of the body of Komogоrova allows for the basis of theory that she last ate 6-8 hours before the time of death. Alcohol was not detected during the investigation. Kolmogorova’s virginity is still intact. The cause of death was violent and accidental.
 

September 26, 2022, 04:19:44 AM
Reply #36

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:03:52 PM by Charles »
 

September 26, 2022, 05:19:30 AM
Reply #37
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Ziljoe


Charles,

Hypothetically Dr Vozrozhdenny could have wrote " I do not think it was murder" , you would then quote the sentence to "it was murder" .

Blunt object just means that it was not sharp , then he suggests possible reasons , rocks , ice, or other objects and then uses "etc" because he's giving an example, not because he's saying it was something else in a secret code. It just the blunt objects in the environment that the bodies were found.

As Igor B points out , the word violence is used to cover

1/murder,
2/suicide,
3/accident.

So I read that Dr Vozrozhdenny concluded that the death was violence under category 3/ which is accidental .

So Dr Vozrozhdenny was stating it wasn't  1/ murder, or  2/ suicide.....

Anyway for a bit of entertainment, I had a search for the definition of bludgeoning.


bludgeon used as a verb:

To strike or hit with something hard, usually on the head; to club. "The apprehended rioter was bludgeoned to death." To coerce someone, as if with a bludgeon. "Their favorite method was bludgeoning us with the same old arguments in favor of their opinions."

Maybe that's all of us?  bang1
 
The following users thanked this post: Manti

September 26, 2022, 05:43:27 AM
Reply #38

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:04:02 PM by Charles »
 

September 26, 2022, 08:52:05 AM
Reply #39
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Ziljoe


оружие translates to weapon for me

I read it as тупым орудием which is blunt object.
 

September 26, 2022, 06:28:20 PM
Reply #40
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GlennM


I believe that no expert on this forum was part of the official Soviet reevaluation of the DPI. Could it be that our experts have a personal agenda they wish to promote by selling a product or systematically alienating other members? Could their arguements be structured by" cherry picking" the facts and speculations that reinforce their particular point of view? It seems to me that the Russian authorities did a wholesale dismissal of esoteric theories, including stalking. They confined their study to what natural conditions could induce the behavior that led to the fatalities. They ruled out avalanche. They ruled out being buried in a blizzard. They determined that the hikers followed good practice in making their shelter, but were defeated by the nature of the ice pack coupled the effect of katabatic wind on the snowpack.

Since these events which led to the hikers demise are transient, their assessment appears based on finding the explanation requiring the least amount of assumptions, coupled with the evidentiary record. For me, all the alternate theories require the piling on of additional " what if's" which serve to spin the story in the direction of their choice. Being caught out in a slab slip is not glamorous. Everything that followed was the best choices based on their immediate circumstance. It does seem that at some point you could argue that group cohesion fell apart. I do not think so. What happened at the tent, the tree, the den and the way back to the tent all seem to suggest an effort to get the best outcome in what should have been a temporary inconvenience.
 
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September 26, 2022, 07:46:26 PM
Reply #41
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Ziljoe


@GlennM

I agree with you and I don't class myself as an expert in any way, shape or form. I have to work hard at erasing my prejudice from my initial introduction to the mystery with all its sensationalism.

As I continue to read the testimonies and listen to others on here, I find that the authorities followed reasonable and transparent processes given their resources and understanding at that time. To have military , police , volunteers and local Mansi help in the search is standard practice in all parts of the world. I would be more suspicious if they kept the students and locals away from the search. The soldiers were drafted in with metal detectors , which again is standard practice to search for bodies on a snow covered mountain.

Obviously there's confusion in statements and dates etc but that's maybe more to poor communication and experience.  The fact that it's so open to speculation and non conclusive lends its self that the investigation wasn't a cover up of anything sinister. If it was something that the authorities knew about and wanted to hide, it would have been hidden with a solid outcome that would leave no doubt to the public.


To go back to topic , for me,Igor B's proposal that the hikers went to the ceder as this was the most suitable wood for making a fire is logical.  The window in the tree was the area that the hikers would try to claim branches from because it is the dryer wood, The "window " in the ceder coincidentally faced the slope and tent as this was the direction of the prevailing wind which would help dry these branches. The dead wood on the ground was damp /frozen and green wood is of little use. The ceder tree and its branches offered the best guarantee of making a fire.

Simply put, the footprints found on the slope lead the searchers to the ceder.The remains of a fire was found at the base of this tree from the branches broken off the ceder. Some burnt clothes were found along with other items and the evidence that activity had taken place in that area. The two Yuri's were found with injuries consistent with people trying to climb a tree and with less clothing. Burns on one of the hikers next to the fire were reported . It looks like a decision was made.
 

September 27, 2022, 03:23:53 AM
Reply #42

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:04:12 PM by Charles »
 

September 27, 2022, 03:38:41 AM
Reply #43

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:04:20 PM by Charles »
 

September 27, 2022, 04:28:05 AM
Reply #44
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Ziljoe


Hypothetically Dr Vozrozhdenny could have wrote " I do not think it was murder" , you would then quote the sentence to "it was murder".

I just have to quote the possibility of a doubt.

"fall or injury on rocks, ice, etc."

"падения или ушиба о камни, лед и прочее"

Doubt, opening, possibility... it's enough, and enough for me. I don't need more.

And Vozrozhdenny didn't write "it was not murder"... you know ?

Charles,

I don't wish to be combative and I'm happy to contemplate all theories, you have also made some interesting observations and put forward some new ideas. You are well travelled, articulate and educated far more than I.

I'm well aware that you are not comfortable with a stinky skunk, avalanche or the possibility of the hikers ribs being broken from another person from the group falling from the ceder amoungst a few of your comments. This is your prerogative and I'm not trying to stop you.

I'm not a 100% on any theory but I lean towards Igor B's,....and there's a reason for that. He goes into great detail of why he comes to his conclusions and gives supporting evidence and for me, this links to his next observation and so on. I would love to catch him out but I can't ...yet. His ideas go a long way to explain every detail in a logical systematic way. I'm not trying to promote Igor b's ideas, it's just that they have important findings that may support someone's else's theory. He also has the advantage of speaking Russian and that is an important resource for all of us.

Yesterday Igor B highlighted how the word "violence" was used in the autopsy. That death by violence covered , murder, suicide and accident. I believe you then retrospectively edited your post to accommodate this in to earlier posts along with your translation that used the word weapon rather than instrument.

I'm cautious of short quotes , especially when used to create a biased opinion and I think this mystery has had far too much exaggeration on a number of aspects. It would be nice to debate ideas without being distructive of others . I am also guilty of being impatient with others , so I'm not having a go at you.

My example on Vozrozhdenny was an exaggeration, because of your shortened quotes. I want to keep respect for you and not to go back and forth double checking the context of your quotes or re-edited versions of your posts.

I do keep an opening of possibility for outsiders involvement and all possibilities but I like to weigh up the evidence, read others opinions and not have it force fed.
 

September 27, 2022, 04:53:31 AM
Reply #45
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Ziljoe


for me,Igor B's proposal that the hikers went to the ceder as this was the most suitable wood for making a fire is logical.

What logic to run to the unknown when you have a storage just nearby? First explain how the hikers were at the cedar instead to be at the labaz.

Short answer is, because the ceder was a better option, better wood for burning, the wood at the labaz was poor. Perhaps food and a pair boots were not the priority at that moment in time? There might be some translation errors with what follows




Igor b writes:

The best firewood for a fire:

Quote
Cedar is the real king for a campfire. The dry branches of this tree are a real find for the traveler. a fire with the help of cedar firewood can be made even in the wettest weather. The fire will give an even, beautiful flame and excellent heat. Cedar wood does not smoke or shoot.

Ideal firewood for a fire would be cedar. If you ever spend the night by the fire on cedar wood, you will never forget this excellent overnight stay. In the future, you will never again want to choose other wood for a fire.

From Igor b's link , leads to this:

Igor b writes:


Why did the branches of the cedar be broken off at high altitude? Because the best fuel for a fire was dry cedar branches. From the site inspection report:

Image



Quote
near the cedar, dry branches are broken off in 2 - 2.5 meters. The branches are broken off on the cedar itself.

Igor b writes:

The Dyatlovites did not use living wood and deadwood in the fire for a well-known reason:

http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&sho...ost&p=76174

And dry branches on cedars can be not only below, but also above , at high altitude, where the cold wind in winter is especially strong. Branches and die from withering wind from the windward side.
At the Dyatlov cedar, the windward (western) side coincidentally faced the tent.

Igor b writes:

Why didn't the Dyatlovites use deadwood in the fire?

Image

Image

Quote
Faced such a problem. Since the weather this winter jumped from plus to minus, with wet snow, all the firewood was completely saturated with ice. We had to cut down healthy trees, but having cut down we were very surprised that even their core was frosted through. As a result, we could not melt the stove in the tent, we drowned with small branches trying to dry the large ones (they did not catch fire).
Quote
My son and I were in a similar situation.
There was a cyclone, everything got wet, and then it froze. Firewood is raw.
They lit only logs of logs.
But the fire still burned terribly.
Firewood, warming up on a fire, began to fill it with a melted crust of ice.
Quote
I myself did not expect such a situation. A full forest of firewood, dry land - the sea, but he does not burn a dog.
Brushwood is generally a stupid thing. Ice stick.
And in this situation, the most difficult thing is not making a fire, but maintaining the flame and the necessary heat.http://nepropadu.ru/blog/guestroom/10714.html

At the Dyatlov Pass in December 2015:
Quote
With firewood, as they wrote in the reports, everything is bad (they do not burn).Reasonable efforts of the fire did not work, I had to cook on a burner.

At the very first night in a tent, I was convinced that firewood is often a problem. You find a dryer, saw / prick, burn chips, then put them in a larger one, then wave, even larger ... While you wave, it burns perfectly. Stopped waving - does not burn. Dry, coniferous species - and does not burn. Well, there are some places like that.

Bring firewood, chop it, dig at least some kind of fire pit, make sure that firewood is not firewood, look for alternative coniferous branches (which burn perfectly, but burn out very quickly), dance with a tambourine around the hearth - all this is very long.


Bonfires were not every day, because. they took a lot of time (pit + firewood + dances with a tambourine, so that non-burning firewood somehow burned). Once, during the late setting of the camp and long exercises with a fire, I fought back only at 05 in the morning.https://www.risk.ru/blog/207346?http://www.....ru/blog/207346

From the diary of the Dyatlov group dated January 31, 1959:
Quote
Firewood is scarce. Sickly raw spruce.

Igor b writes:

Even if the Christmas trees were damp, then what can we say about the deadwood birch. From the autumn rains, he absorbed water and, lying on the ground, did not dry out by winter. Warming on the eve of the incident before the arrival of the cold front only added to the dampness.

Thus, the Dyatlovites had no other fuel for the fire, except for dry, dead cedar branches, most of which were located on the windward western side, i.e. from the side coincidentally facing the tent.

It was impossible to warm up with nine half-dressed people around a fire made of branches, and even divorced for known reasons in a strong wind. Branches quickly burn out and people who are forced to constantly extract such fuel for a fire are supercooled more than they warm up.


Basically,Igor b is saying, that the dead wood on the ground would be damp and frozen , will not burn well and takes work to do so if at all. However the ceder tree would be a good source for dry wood as the wind will have help dry out the branches that faced the slope. Sounds logical to me.....
 

September 27, 2022, 07:59:49 AM
Reply #46

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:04:31 PM by Charles »
 

September 27, 2022, 09:43:46 AM
Reply #47
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Ziljoe


Charlie

You first wrote

Dr Vozrozhdenny wrote "Тупое оружие" which is translated as "blunt instrument".


Searching Yandex for pictures with key word "Тупое оружие" gives interesting results:

From what I can gather, this translates to "dumb/silly/stupid, weapon/gun"

https://yandex.com/images/search?

text=Тупое oружие


Thus your pictures of silly looking guns

And search with "opужиe" (translated as "object", "instrument", blunt or not) is even funnier:


https://yandex.com/images/search? text=оружие

I like a lot how Yandex answers to the query "Tyпoe opужиe" (blunt object):



I think you were asking yandex for blunt and dumb weapons , a stupid tool.

[You edited your post after I had highlighted the error and I suspect you tried to translate from English first, then to Russian. You also edited about the categories of murder, suicide and accident in your other posts.

However , I am learning that russian is a bit complex and "blunt object "is used and covers a number of possibilities. I shall need to work on the contexts. Igor B might help.


 

September 27, 2022, 10:33:01 AM
Reply #48
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Игорь Б.


Судмедэксперт Возрожденный обязан был использовать слово "твёрдый тупой предмет", как полагается в судебной-медицине:
https://forensicmedicine.ru/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B4%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%82

Тем более, что он не знал, чем именно были причинены повреждения. Он предполагал, что повреждения "могли возникнуть в результате падения или ушиба о камни, лед и прочее".
"Камни, лёд и прочее" при падении не являются "орудием" (tool).
Использование судмедэкспертом Возрожденным слова "орудие" (tool) - профессиональная неграмотность.

Даже это называется "Blunt objects":
http://preview.photoxpress.ru/preview/photoxpress_ru/news_info/3217611444.jpg
https://govorim.by/uploads/posts/2012-02/13300867946145015.jpeg
(надпись: Тупые предметы)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 10:43:27 AM by Игорь Б. »
An example of the impact of chemical weapons of a skunk (wolverine) in a tent:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=117054
 

September 27, 2022, 11:24:55 AM
Reply #49

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:04:40 PM by Charles »
 

September 27, 2022, 11:40:51 AM
Reply #50
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Manti


So let's assume for a second that persons inflicted these wounds on the hikers.

How did they get to the pass? How did they leave? Contemporary accounts say that there weren't many traces... there were ski traces leading from Auspiya to the tent (assumed to be from Dyatlovites), and footprints from the tent to the forest (Dyatlovites). There is also some mention of boot prints as if someone had already been there, perhaps the KGB.

But it's almost impossible to get there in boots. Did the attackers fly in by helicopter and then walk around to attack the tent? But there were no footprints leading to the tent. Or did they use broadskis that leave almost no trace, such as the fur trimmed skis used by  the natives? Would anyone else have such skis?

Or, one last possibility I can think of is that they followed the Dyatlov group's ski tracks on skis, and then walked from the tent, so their traces would be indistinguishable from the Dyatlov group's... except how did they return from the forest?See? It doesn't really add up either way


 

September 27, 2022, 01:11:01 PM
Reply #51

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:04:47 PM by Charles »
 

September 27, 2022, 02:52:27 PM
Reply #52

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:04:59 PM by Charles »
 

September 27, 2022, 03:13:59 PM
Reply #53

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:05:07 PM by Charles »
 

September 27, 2022, 03:48:38 PM
Reply #54
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Ziljoe







The hikers passed that ridge when walking to their last campsite, they knew they just had to down the slope by pressing on their right to reach their labaz (no hard uphill walk, it was downhill till the labaz). If a partition in the group ever happened, it should have been at the tent, between some silly enough to choose the unknown and a few wiser individuals choosing the labaz.

For me, there is a triangle: Tent-Labaz-Cedar, which has to be solved. Any explanation by "natural cause" has to solve this triangle. That is to say, if natural conditions forced the hikers to abandon the tent and run for their life, then life was the labaz, on the right side of the ridge, downslope and nearby.


How and why would you explain them going to the ceder from the tent  and not going to the labaz then Charles?

Surly any explanation would need to explain this triangle of why they didn't go to the labaz , not just "natural cause" . (Although you have been given one) and how do you explain the "window" in the ceder? What made them go to the ceder??
 

September 27, 2022, 04:09:59 PM
Reply #55
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Ziljoe


Судмедэксперт Возрожденный обязан был использовать слово "твёрдый тупой предмет", как полагается в судебной-медицине:
https://forensicmedicine.ru/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B4%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%82

Тем более, что он не знал, чем именно были причинены повреждения. Он предполагал, что повреждения "могли возникнуть в результате падения или ушиба о камни, лед и прочее".
"Камни, лёд и прочее" при падении не являются "орудием" (tool).
Использование судмедэкспертом Возрожденным слова "орудие" (tool) - профессиональная неграмотность.

Даже это называется "Blunt objects":
http://preview.photoxpress.ru/preview/photoxpress_ru/news_info/3217611444.jpg
https://govorim.by/uploads/posts/2012-02/13300867946145015.jpeg
(надпись: Тупые предметы)

Thank you Igor B
 

September 27, 2022, 05:27:01 PM
Reply #56
Online

GlennM


Nice to read some thoughtful ideas sans hubris. It is clear the hikers went to the tree, not the Labaz. I contend that using cached supplies would signal the end of any advance to Ortoten. They went to the woods instead. Was the cedar climbed and used for making a good fire? A fire was made,that much is known. The cedar may have been climbed.

Were they, the hikers,mugged? It seems inefficient. If marauders wanted something,and they had armament,they could take that they wanted. If the bad actors were larking around in a helicopter, why no beer cans? They could dispatch the hikers, bury them and depart. Would they beat the kids up and leave them for dead? Would any of us be so bold as to risk the chance that one in nine might live to tell the tale? Did the marauders lay a trap at the cedar? If so, I bet they were surprised when the party marched in displaying their states of undress! Just where are your shoes? No murderer is going to kill their victims and leave evidence of their crime unless they wanted notoriety. Nobody claimed responsibility.  Too,they would have had at least a week to get away. I do not recall any mention of a jailbreak.

For the most part, these hikers knew each other well, both personally and reputation. I think a defection during amcrisis of weather is unlikely given that nobody elected to remain at the tent, nor veer to the Labaz. The hikers did all the right things for all the right reasons, but Nature is indifferent to reason. Cold and gravity won out.
 

September 27, 2022, 05:51:15 PM
Reply #57

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:05:18 PM by Charles »
 

September 27, 2022, 06:52:25 PM
Reply #58

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:05:26 PM by Charles »
 

September 27, 2022, 07:01:57 PM
Reply #59
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Ziljoe


What made them go to the ceder??

My hypothesis is presented here: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1127.0

Thank you Charles, I did read over it at the time of posting but it all got a bit confusing with the posts that followed. I will need to read over it several times and go back and forth. It would be good if you could put some links to the early events and statements regarding the first murder.

Probably the best theory of outsiders being involved with a plausible motive to take such a risk. (That's always being missing for me) . Obviously there's some bits I dismiss and I think are unnecessary but it is a strong case. It deserves more comments to be honest.