Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: alecsandros on May 22, 2020, 03:52:10 AM
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Hello,
I recently watched Discovery Channel's "Expedition Unknown" documentary from autumn 2019. In it, at the end, John Gates is presented with two documents in Iekaterinburg - a letter dated Fev 15th concerning the deaths of the Dyatovlav group, and another related document, dated Fev 6th.
Does anyone have more detailed information about the contents of the two documents ? And of course, any info about the way in which the military found out so rapidly about the tragic end of the group ? (Not due to send a telegram until Fev 12th).
Best,
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There is a "claim on the internet" that a team of geologists exploring the area in early Feb encountered and were interrogated by a police style unit before being released.
It all fits with the missile(s) theory which Askinadzi states was the official reason given during the search for the bodies.
Or it's all misinformation to confuse kewl1
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IF that claim was real, many mysteries of the Dyatovlav pass would be explained by military forces intervening.
After all, many (most?) "fireballs in the sky" appear close to aerial bases...
IF (again, if...) the nine skiers heard a turbo-reactor passing nearby, and/or a rocket (air-to-air exploding above them, air-to-ground being tested, and exploding near them, ground-to-ground exploding above them, or ground-to-air exploding above them), they would be in mortal danger and immediately rush out of the tent... They would use flashlights to guide their way down the slope, and into the woods, HOPING to exit the danger zone...
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Yes the missile theory is the best explanation.
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Do you think it's possible that the Dyatlov group was subject to a local rocket attack ?
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Yes the missile theory is the best explanation.
What are the specifics regarding the missile theory? What type of missile? Was it just passing overhead or is the theory that it malfunctioned and landed near them? Where was it thought to be going? Where was it from?
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There aren't any specifics, other than fitting the evidence.
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Is there any area considered to be an impact crater in the vicinity of Kholat Syakl ?
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Is there any area considered to be an impact crater in the vicinity of Kholat Syakl ?
No.
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Is there any area considered to be an impact crater in the vicinity of Kholat Syakl ?
No.
Ok, thanks for the answer !
Further on the rocket:
Were there metal fragments recovered or observed in the area that could be coming from a 1959 rocket ?
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There aren't any specifics, other than fitting the evidence.
And there really is no evidence to suggest it was a Missile or similar.
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Do you think it's possible that the Dyatlov group was subject to a local rocket attack ?
There was no Rocket attack. Local or otherwise. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest any type of Missile involvement.
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Is there any area considered to be an impact crater in the vicinity of Kholat Syakl ?
No.
Ok, thanks for the answer !
Further on the rocket:
Were there metal fragments recovered or observed in the area that could be coming from a 1959 rocket ?
Any conversations about rockets, spies and military men in this history as the reasons of all events are a fake. It follows from detailed acquaintance to district, conditions and logistics. Besides, to me it is the most easier for understanding, because I will be the expert in rockets (in particular), and not only in technical characteristics and a design, but also in the history of the rocket technics in Russia. All conversations on it are simply gamble in this theme, and the fragments which have been found out in this area are details of later rocket which in 1959 did not exist even in drawings. At that time there were no rockets which could arrive on pass therefrom where they have been really located.
Therefore, if yet have not invented a time machine, to speak about participation of rockets in these events it is not meaningful.
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Is there any area considered to be an impact crater in the vicinity of Kholat Syakl ?
No.
Ok, thanks for the answer !
Further on the rocket:
Were there metal fragments recovered or observed in the area that could be coming from a 1959 rocket ?
Any conversations about rockets, spies and military men in this history as the reasons of all events are a fake. It follows from detailed acquaintance to district, conditions and logistics. Besides, to me it is the most easier for understanding, because I will be the expert in rockets (in particular), and not only in technical characteristics and a design, but also in the history of the rocket technics in Russia. All conversations on it are simply gamble in this theme, and the fragments which have been found out in this area are details of later rocket which in 1959 did not exist even in drawings. At that time there were no rockets which could arrive on pass therefrom where they have been really located.
Therefore, if yet have not invented a time machine, to speak about participation of rockets in these events it is not meaningful.
Thanks for the answer.
Keeping this in mind, do you think it was possible for a rocket/missile to have exploded in the air, but traces of it (remains, debris) were removed before the official search began ?
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There aren't any specifics, other than fitting the evidence.
And there really is no evidence to suggest it was a Missile or similar.
Evidence for a missile :-- Orange snow
- Orange powder on YuriD's sweater.
- Tips of branches of trees at treeline burnt.
- Burnt skin and burnt clothing.
- Injuries consistent with lightweight metal fragment impacts on three/four bodies each unique but of a similar pattern.
- Facial injuries consistent with chemical burns including eyelid tissue within the protection of the eye socket (Zinaida - autopsy stated abrasions?).
- Strange orange/brown skin at funerals suggesting unknown delayed chemical reaction.
- Mysterious night photographs of intense light sources.
- Askenadzi stated that in 1959 the official story was "a missile".
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There aren't any specifics, other than fitting the evidence.
And there really is no evidence to suggest it was a Missile or similar.
Evidence for a missile :-- Orange snow
- Orange powder on YuriD's sweater.
- Tips of branches of trees at treeline burnt.
- Burnt skin and burnt clothing.
- Injuries consistent with lightweight metal fragment impacts on three/four bodies each unique but of a similar pattern.
- Facial injuries consistent with chemical burns including eyelid tissue within the protection of the eye socket (Zinaida - autopsy stated abrasions?).
- Strange orange/brown skin at funerals suggesting unknown delayed chemical reaction.
- Mysterious night photographs of intense light sources.
- Askenadzi stated that in 1959 the official story was "a missile".
In addition to this, Ludmila's brother mentioned in the interview that he gave that he knew about a "metal ring" being discovered at the scene.
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At that time there were no rockets which could arrive on pass therefrom where they have been really located.
WAB, I really appreciate your knowledge of the Dyatlov case.
Personally I think it was a missile test gone wrong that caused the death of the hikers. I believe the R-12 missile is a good candidate. According to my research Khrushchev himself was present at the official launch of the R-12 Dvina at Kapustin Yar in September 1958. After the official launch testing continued well into December 1958. Apparently there are no records at Kapustin Yar of further tests in January, February 1959, but that might have something to do with the death of some of the Soviet Union finest. The operational range of the R-12 was around 2,000 km (1,300 mi). Distance (as the the missile flies) from Kapustin Yar to Dyatlov Pass: 1,700 km (about 1,000 mi).
To me it all seems to add up. What is your opinion about it?
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Evidence for a missile :-- Orange snow.............................................................................no
- Orange powder on YuriD's sweater................................................no
- Tips of branches of trees at treeline burnt......................................hm. maybe.
- Burnt skin and burnt clothing.......................................................no
- Injuries consistent with lightweight metal fragment impacts on
three/four bodies each unique but of a similar pattern.....................no - Facial injuries consistent with chemical burns including eyelid
tissue within the protection of the eye socket
(Zinaida - autopsy stated abrasions?)...........................................no way - Strange orange/brown skin at funerals suggesting unknown delayed
chemical reaction.......................................................................no - Mysterious night photographs of intense light sources.....................you're onto something here grin1
- Askenadzi stated that in 1959 the official story was "a missile".........well, official stories heh
I still agree with your missile theory though dance1
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Thanks for the answer.
Keeping this in mind, do you think it was possible for a rocket/missile to have exploded in the air, but traces of it (remains, debris) were removed before the official search began ?
During WWII the allied forces realized that a blast wave caused 90% of an explosion's destruction. To maximize the impact of a blast wave they set out to design bombs and other devices that would detonate not on impact but while still up in the air. Both Little Boy and Fat Man detonated about 600 m above ground and we all know what happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
A theatre ballistic missile like the R-12 was designed to do the same thing. A rudimentary on board computer processed the data of some equally rudimentary measurement devices (velocity, acceleration, angle, orientation) and at the right moment at the right (hopefully) location (600 m above ground) it would order the warhead to detonate.
In addition: the R-12 was a single stage rocket. At the right coordinates/time small explosive charges would blow up the clamps of the warhead. The warhead would travel on, on its intended course while the missile itself would fall away, fall to earth, quite a long way from the Dyatlov Pass, and possibly even burn up due to atmospheric friction.
If this happened there is no reason to expect debris on site, and there won't be an impact crater.
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Thanks for the answer.
Keeping this in mind, do you think it was possible for a rocket/missile to have exploded in the air, but traces of it (remains, debris) were removed before the official search began ?
During WWII the allied forces realized that a blast wave caused 90% of an explosion's destruction. To maximize the impact of a blast wave they set out to design bombs and other devices that would detonate not on impact but while still up in the air. Both Little Boy and Fat Man detonated about 600 m above ground and we all know what happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
A theatre ballistic missile like the R-12 was designed to do the same thing. A rudimentary on board computer processed the data of some equally rudimentary measurement devices (velocity, acceleration, angle, orientation) and at the right moment at the right (hopefully) location (600 m above ground) it would order the warhead to detonate.
In addition: the R-12 was a single stage rocket. At the right coordinates/time small explosive charges would blow up the clamps of the warhead. The warhead would travel on, on its intended course while the missile itself would fall away, fall to earth, quite a long way from the Dyatlov Pass, and possibly even burn up due to atmospheric friction.
If this happened there is no reason to expect debris on site, and there won't be an impact crater.
Hello and thanks for your answer !
Still, if the warhead would be ejected from the body of the rocket, after which it would explode at a given altitude above ground, wouldn't some traces of the warhead itself (debris) be able to still exist and be found ?
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Evidence for a missile :-- Orange snow.............................................................................no
- Orange powder on YuriD's sweater................................................no
- Tips of branches of trees at treeline burnt......................................hm. maybe.
- Burnt skin and burnt clothing.......................................................no
- Injuries consistent with lightweight metal fragment impacts on
three/four bodies each unique but of a similar pattern.....................no - Facial injuries consistent with chemical burns including eyelid
tissue within the protection of the eye socket
(Zinaida - autopsy stated abrasions?)...........................................no way - Strange orange/brown skin at funerals suggesting unknown delayed
chemical reaction.......................................................................no - Mysterious night photographs of intense light sources.....................you're onto something here grin1
- Askenadzi stated that in 1959 the official story was "a missile".........well, official stories heh
I still agree with your missile theory though dance1
Hi, it's good that you agree with the solution, but disagreeing with the case less so. kewl1
Would you care to expand on just "no"/"no way"?
Regards.
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Evidence for a missile :-- Orange snow
- Orange powder on YuriD's sweater.
- Tips of branches of trees at treeline burnt.
- Burnt skin and burnt clothing.
- Injuries consistent with lightweight metal fragment impacts on three/four bodies each unique but of a similar pattern.
- Facial injuries consistent with chemical burns including eyelid tissue within the protection of the eye socket (Zinaida - autopsy stated abrasions?).
- Strange orange/brown skin at funerals suggesting unknown delayed chemical reaction.
- Mysterious night photographs of intense light sources.
- Askenadzi stated that in 1959 the official story was "a missile".
- Wasn't the orange snow determined to be snow bloom? If not, could it have been snow bloom? Why would only a missile leave orange snow?
- I can't find anything regarding orange powder on Yuri D's sweater. Not saying there wasn't but, could it be something other than a missile?
- Not 100% sure on this - Ivanov testified of the burnt treeline but it wasn't until 2013 that this information was made available. He stated that they found the burnt trees in May with Maslennikov (Maslennikov didn't go to the pass in May). They did not find the burnt trees during the initial investigations in Late February.
- Burnt skin and burnt clothing were almost certainly from the fire they built at the cedar
- If the injuries were consistent with lightweight metal fragment impacts wouldn't they have found lightweight metal fragments in the area? If not in the area, certainly in the bodies. What is it about those injuries that they could have only been caused by metal fragment impact?
- I couldn't find anything in the official autopsy reports regarding chemical burns
- https://dyatlovpass.com/orange?rbid=18461
- Not sure what photographs you're referring to. If you're referring to frame No. 34 on Krivonischenko's camera I thought it was determined that that particular photo was taken by the lab tech in order to rewind the film.
- ?
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- Wasn't the orange snow determined to be snow bloom? If not, could it have been snow bloom? Why would only a missile leave orange snow? Snow bloom is red not orange. Combined with snow it is pink. Only pink no other colour.
- I can't find anything regarding orange powder on Yuri D's sweater. Not saying there wasn't but, could it be something other than a missile? It's in a recent article posted by Teddy containing a quote from YuriD's brother.
- Not 100% sure on this - Ivanov testified of the burnt treeline but it wasn't until 2013 that this information was made available. He stated that they found the burnt trees in May with Maslennikov (Maslennikov didn't go to the pass in May). They did not find the burnt trees during the initial investigations in Late February. Ivanov included this in his Leninsky Put article, circa 1990.
- Burnt skin and burnt clothing were almost certainly from the fire they built at the cedar - It's good to be certain, i'm not. We agree to disagree.
- If the injuries were consistent with lightweight metal fragment impacts wouldn't they have found lightweight metal fragments in the area? If not in the area, certainly in the bodies. What is it about those injuries that they could have only been caused by metal fragment impact? That's my explanation for three or four bodies having similar marks.
- I couldn't find anything in the official autopsy reports regarding chemical burns, No and you'll find no analysis of Lyudmila's missing tongue etc etc. Zinaida's face is described as "abrasions" including the right eyelid protected by the eye socket. She was found "face in blood" those bleeding abrasions show no direction of scrape. Google image "chemical peel burn" for comparison.
- https://dyatlovpass.com/orange?rbid=18461 (https://dyatlovpass.com/orange?rbid=18461)
- Not sure what photographs you're referring to. Plane2 If you're referring to frame No. 34 on Krivonischenko's camera I thought it was determined that that particular photo was taken by the lab tech in order to rewind the film.
- ?
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Keeping this in mind, do you think it was possible for a rocket/missile to have exploded in the air, but traces of it (remains, debris) were removed before the official search began ?
No. It is not meaningful if analyze humdrum of life, instead of imaginations. Besides, on place there are no signs of that there that arrived, blew up, scattered and etc.
Fragments of the fallen rockets (or planes) cannot be collected completely. Especially it is essential to winter. At tests collect not all fragments but only those parts which can give lot of information that was faulty or fix the necessary parametres of flight. The rest leave on place. If only ecologists do not begin the company, but it in 1959 was not even in the project. Fragments fall on specially allocated platforms in most cases. Not settlement falling happen very seldom.
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At that time there were no rockets which could arrive on pass therefrom where they have been really located.
WAB, I really appreciate your knowledge of the Dyatlov case.
Personally I think it was a missile test gone wrong that caused the death of the hikers. I believe the R-12 missile is a good candidate.
Unfortunately you here completely are mistaken.
1. Tests are spent on special ranges with presence of equipment for record, cinema shooting, radar and special measurements. To do it on unprepared platform it is equivalent to how it is imagined by children: take the biggest stone and throw to big pool.
2. R-12 during this period was not available anywhere. The cycle of tests has come to the end in December, 1958. At tests each following rocket do specially and individually, for this purpose, what eliminate lacks of the previous tests. While there is no new task of the new do not do are not matches, it very expensively and demands many work and intelligence, what all to do simply so, without the purpose.
3. In it the period was not starts R-12. It completely corresponds both to the official data and memoirs of those who at that time was on range "Kapustin Yar"
4. 1959 therefrom was on February, 02nd rocket R-5m start to direction Balkhash Lake. But it is perfect other rocket which - could not reach there (range - 1200 km a maximum), - its place of falling have found on a proper place about Balkhash Lake. It I specially investigated in archive rocket wax at the desire Vladislav Karelin - the participant of searches Dyatlov group.
According to my research Khrushchev himself was present at the official launch of the R-12 Dvina at Kapustin Yar in September 1958. After the official launch testing continued well into December 1958.
Yes, that such was, just when passed tests, but they have ended in December 1959 and to Dyatlov group do not approach by time.
By the way, you confuse of the NATO-coding for USSR rockets: "Dvina" it is for surface-to-air missile system C-75. The index for R-12 is called «Sandal tree».
Apparently there are no records at Kapustin Yar of further tests in January, February 1959, but that might have something to do with the death of some of the Soviet Union finest.
Naturally there are no these records because the cycle of tests has ended, and training of calculations for armies yet has not begun. The rocket has been accepted on arms in March, 1959 then have started to form a cycle of training of armies. I can tell to you by secret , during tests and training of armies was not casual death of other people. Self-liquidators of several degrees have rockets, therefore even at small deviation it blows up in air and if also it does not work, that is the radio command on blasting, but to it practically never used at test of any rockets. Such system (self-liquidations at the big deviation of trajectory) exists since German rockets V-2 (A-4) since 1943.
The operational range of the R-12 was around 2,000 km (1,300 mi). Distance (as the the missile flies) from Kapustin Yar to Dyatlov Pass: 1,700 km (about 1,000 mi).
Range has no value as demanded for deviation to pass deviation from planned trajectories so big that it is possible not o speak the rocket about it at all.
To me it all seems to add up. What is your opinion about it?
In life all is much easier and is more prosy, than imaginations. Therefore it is not necessary to think out superfluous essence,. All one can speaks more simple situations in life.
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- Wasn't the orange snow determined to be snow bloom? If not, could it have been snow bloom? Why would only a missile leave orange snow? Snow bloom is red not orange. Combined with snow it is pink. Only pink no other colour. Why would a missile leave orange snow? Could it have occurred from something other than a missile? Is it possible that the eyewitness misremembered and described the snow as orange instead of red (light orange and light red (pink) would be extremely close in color)? Where in the case files does it even bring up orange snow?
- I can't find anything regarding orange powder on Yuri D's sweater. Not saying there wasn't but, could it be something other than a missile? It's in a recent article posted by Teddy containing a quote from YuriD's brother. Since there is nothing in the official case files regarding orange powder on his clothing, is it possible the powder was transferred to his clothing during the transport from the pass? Also, why is a missile the only explanation for orange powder on clothing?
- Not 100% sure on this - Ivanov testified of the burnt treeline but it wasn't until 2013 that this information was made available. He stated that they found the burnt trees in May with Maslennikov (Maslennikov didn't go to the pass in May). They did not find the burnt trees during the initial investigations in Late February. Ivanov included this in his Leninsky Put article, circa 1990. Still, 31 years is a long time to try and remember something.
- Burnt skin and burnt clothing were almost certainly from the fire they built at the cedar - It's good to be certain, i'm not. We agree to disagree.
- If the injuries were consistent with lightweight metal fragment impacts wouldn't they have found lightweight metal fragments in the area? If not in the area, certainly in the bodies. What is it about those injuries that they could have only been caused by metal fragment impact? That's my explanation for three or four bodies having similar marks. Could those injuries have come from somewhere else?
- I couldn't find anything in the official autopsy reports regarding chemical burns, No and you'll find no analysis of Lyudmila's missing tongue etc etc. Zinaida's face is described as "abrasions" including the right eyelid protected by the eye socket. She was found "face in blood" those bleeding abrasions show no direction of scrape. Google image "chemical peel burn" for comparison. Would the medical examiner not have recognized chemical burns?
- https://dyatlovpass.com/orange?rbid=18461 (https://dyatlovpass.com/orange?rbid=18461)
- Not sure what photographs you're referring to. Plane2 If you're referring to frame No. 34 on Krivonischenko's camera I thought it was determined that that particular photo was taken by the lab tech in order to rewind the film.
- ?
-
- Wasn't the orange snow determined to be snow bloom? If not, could it have been snow bloom? Why would only a missile leave orange snow? Snow bloom is red not orange. Combined with snow it is pink. Only pink no other colour. Why would a missile leave orange snow? Could it have occurred from something other than a missile? Is it possible that the eyewitness misremembered and described the snow as orange instead of red (light orange and light red (pink) would be extremely close in color)? Where in the case files does it even bring up orange snow?Google image "red fuming nitric acid"- I can't find anything regarding orange powder on Yuri D's sweater. Not saying there wasn't but, could it be something other than a missile? It's in a recent article posted by Teddy containing a quote from YuriD's brother. Since there is nothing in the official case files regarding orange powder on his clothing, is it possible the powder was transferred to his clothing during the transport from the pass? Also, why is a missile the only explanation for orange powder on clothing? It fits the missile narrative, that's all.
- Not 100% sure on this - Ivanov testified of the burnt treeline but it wasn't until 2013 that this information was made available. He stated that they found the burnt trees in May with Maslennikov (Maslennikov didn't go to the pass in May). They did not find the burnt trees during the initial investigations in Late February. Ivanov included this in his Leninsky Put article, circa 1990. Still, 31 years is a long time to try and remember something. Imo the delayed reaction of the trees fits with chemical exposure. They weren't burnt perhaps more just died off.
- Burnt skin and burnt clothing were almost certainly from the fire they built at the cedar - It's good to be certain, i'm not. We agree to disagree.
- If the injuries were consistent with lightweight metal fragment impacts wouldn't they have found lightweight metal fragments in the area? If not in the area, certainly in the bodies. What is it about those injuries that they could have only been caused by metal fragment impact? That's my explanation for three or four bodies having similar marks. Could those injuries have come from somewhere else? I'm only justifying a missile narrative, not proving it. Other explanations exist.
- I couldn't find anything in the official autopsy reports regarding chemical burns, No and you'll find no analysis of Lyudmila's missing tongue etc etc. Zinaida's face is described as "abrasions" including the right eyelid protected by the eye socket. She was found "face in blood" those bleeding abrasions show no direction of scrape. Google image "chemical peel burn" for comparison. Would the medical examiner not have recognized chemical burns? Probably but would he report them?
- https://dyatlovpass.com/orange?rbid=18461 (https://dyatlovpass.com/orange?rbid=18461)
- Not sure what photographs you're referring to. Plane2 If you're referring to frame No. 34 on Krivonischenko's camera I thought it was determined that that particular photo was taken by the lab tech in order to rewind the film.
- ?
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Naturally there are no these records because the cycle of tests has ended, and training of calculations for armies yet has not begun. The rocket has been accepted on arms in March, 1959 then have started to form a cycle of training of armies. I can tell to you by secret , during tests and training of armies was not casual death of other people. Self-liquidators of several degrees have rockets, therefore even at small deviation it blows up in air and if also it does not work, that is the radio command on blasting, but to it practically never used at test of any rockets. Such system (self-liquidations at the big deviation of trajectory) exists since German rockets V-2 (A-4) since 1943.
Thank you for a detailed answer.
Another problem: in the interview that Aleksandrovich Dubinin, Lyuda's brother, gave, he mentions a "metal ring" being found on the scene, belonging (probably) to the C-200 (S-200) complex (air-to-ground missile with a range of 300km https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-200_(missile)#Description).
Any comments on that ?
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Unfortunately you here completely are mistaken.
Thanks grin1
WAB, thank you for your detailed answer. You obviously know a lot about the case. I hope you don’t mind me asking some follow-up questions.
1. Official records sometimes disappear when they’re not agreeable to the powers that be. The memoirs of the people at Kapustin Yar at that time can tell us more. Has anyone researched in depth, interviewed those involved at KY in the R-12 program about those first months (Jan, Feb) of 1959? Do we know for a fact that testing ended in Dec 1958? Nobody swept a final test gone wrong under the rug? Do you have testimony on that?
2. I’m not sure if I understand you correctly, but are you saying there was an R-5M launch on Feb 2 at Kapustin Yar, targeted at Balkhash Lake? And you researched that one and ruled it out? That’s what you are saying?
3. On self-liquidators/self-destruct switches. The thing about the R-12 that caught my attention was its fully autonomous guidance system. It was supposed to find its way all by its self without any (emergency) input from ground/radio control. IMHO ground control would not have been able to blow up the missile in case of emergency. And its guidance system would have made the missile particularly vulnerable to integrational drift without the on board computer ever “knowing” it deviated from course. What’s your opinion?
4. The one thing that bothers me most about the R-12 theory is the possible orientation of the missile’s trajectory. As far as I know test missiles from Kapustin Yar were usually directed east – towards the “empty” plains of Kazakhstan –the salt marshes of Tengiz and as you mention Lake Balkhash. Do you know of any missile test at KY directed north during the 50s, 60s?
Thank you so much!
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3. On self-liquidators/self-destruct switches. The thing about the R-12 that caught my attention was its fully autonomous guidance system. It was supposed to find its way all by its self without any (emergency) input from ground/radio control. IMHO ground control would not have been able to blow up the missile in case of emergency. And its guidance system would have made the missile particularly vulnerable to integrational drift without the on board computer ever “knowing” it deviated from course. What’s your opinion?
Further of interest in this matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelsat_708 "On February 15, 1996, the Long March 3B rocket failed during launch, veering off course immediately after liftoff and crashing into a village near the launch site (probably Mayelin Village).[1] An enormous explosion destroyed most of the rocket and killed an unknown number of inhabitants.[3]"
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Still, if the warhead would be ejected from the body of the rocket, after which it would explode at a given altitude above ground, wouldn't some traces of the warhead itself (debris) be able to still exist and be found ?
I'm sure it's possible that chunks/debris of a device can survive an explosion and can be found in the vicinity. I don't think its necessary so. If all explosive devices would leave a significant amount of debris behind we'd still be wading through the remnants of WOI and II.
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Evidence for a missile :-- Orange snow.............................................................................no
- Orange powder on YuriD's sweater................................................no
- Tips of branches of trees at treeline burnt......................................hm. maybe.
- Burnt skin and burnt clothing.......................................................no
- Injuries consistent with lightweight metal fragment impacts on
three/four bodies each unique but of a similar pattern.....................no - Facial injuries consistent with chemical burns including eyelid
tissue within the protection of the eye socket
(Zinaida - autopsy stated abrasions?)...........................................no way - Strange orange/brown skin at funerals suggesting unknown delayed
chemical reaction.......................................................................no - Mysterious night photographs of intense light sources.....................you're onto something here grin1
- Askenadzi stated that in 1959 the official story was "a missile".........well, official stories heh
I still agree with your missile theory though dance1
Hi, it's good that you agree with the solution, but disagreeing with the case less so. kewl1
Would you care to expand on just "no"/"no way"?
Regards.
Well, evidence means there is an obvious, or at least a plausible connection between the thing you are trying to prove (i.e. missile) and the pieces of evidence (i.e. orange stuff). AFAIK there is no known relationship between orange stuff on snow, faces and sweaters and missiles in the sky. There is no reason to attribute the burns on kids dying from hypothermia to missiles when there is this obvious source, the fire they were trying to start/keep going, for their burns. The same goes for the other injuries you mention. It really doesn't point to there being a missile.
I'm not sure about Ivanov's burnt treetops. On the one hand it is the kind of thing someone would make up (even subconsciously!) to strengthen his/her story about Unidentified Flying Objects. On the other hand it's so unassuming that I think it may be a proper recollection. I lean towards the latter explanation. People don't make up simple stuff to prove something extraordinary. I think he remembered something.
As far as the photographs are concerned: frame 34 an Zolotaryov's "three heads" are really important evidence. The "plane" pictures aren't photographs, imho. I have to write a separate post on that. Cheers!
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3. On self-liquidators/self-destruct switches. The thing about the R-12 that caught my attention was its fully autonomous guidance system. It was supposed to find its way all by its self without any (emergency) input from ground/radio control. IMHO ground control would not have been able to blow up the missile in case of emergency. And its guidance system would have made the missile particularly vulnerable to integrational drift without the on board computer ever “knowing” it deviated from course. What’s your opinion?
Further of interest in this matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelsat_708 "On February 15, 1996, the Long March 3B rocket failed during launch, veering off course immediately after liftoff and crashing into a village near the launch site (probably Mayelin Village).[1] An enormous explosion destroyed most of the rocket and killed an unknown number of inhabitants.[3]"
I agree. We can pave the road from Amsterdam to Bucharest to Moscow with the all the reports on missile/bomb/nuke accidents since the end of WWII. The favorite “oops, sorry” activity of military around the world seems to be the shooting down of civilian aircraft. The Americans have an excellent track record of losing nukes - above the Atlantic, in the Mediterranean, in the desert sands of Morocco. A notable incident in the USSR was of course the Nedelin disaster (1960). An undisclosed number of people, including the commanding officer of Strategic Rocket Forces died in a launch pad explosion of an R-16. In short: sh*t happens, all over the world.
The initial reaction of governments/military all over the world is predictably the same: Who? Me? No! I didn’t do anything! Somebody else stole the cookies – shot the plane down – it was an engine failure – there’s nothing wrong with the Kursk – Chernobyl? What’s a Chernobyl? – Nothing to see here people, move along. The official story on the death of Chief Marshall Nedelin was that he died in a plane crash. The families of other victims were told by officials to tell the same lie about the death of their loved ones.
We could be looking at a same thing here. Possibly.
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I agree. We can pave the road from Amsterdam to Bucharest to Moscow with the all the reports on missile/bomb/nuke accidents since the end of WWII.
kewl1
The initial reaction of governments/military all over the world is predictably the same: Who? Me? No! I didn’t do anything! Somebody else stole the cookies – shot the plane down – it was an engine failure – there’s nothing wrong with the Kursk – Chernobyl? What’s a Chernobyl? – Nothing to see here people, move along. The official story on the death of Chief Marshall Nedelin was that he died in a plane crash. The families of other victims were told by officials to tell the same lie about the death of their loved ones.
In Romania the cover story for the Revolution of 1989 was that it was caused - and the victims caused by - the "terrorists". Only that there weren't any to be found...
We could be looking at a same thing here. Possibly.
I think the same...
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Another problem: in the interview that Aleksandrovich Dubinin, Lyuda's brother, gave, he mentions a "metal ring" being found on the scene, belonging (probably) to the C-200 (S-200) complex (air-to-ground missile with a range of 300km https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-200_(missile)#Description).
Any comments on that ?
Them is so much, how many it can be demanded.
1. С-200 (S-200) have started develop only in 1964, have taken advantage in 1967. Therefore the time machine for participation in incident Dyatlov pass is again necessary.
2. Any rockets do not put anywhere but only there where they are necessary. Therefore if you spend circle in radius to 200 km (300 km are you have in vain believed to stereotyped article in Wikipedia, there weight of errors. It is radar has radius of 270 km, instead of the rocket) from Dyatlov pass receive that they there are required only for this purpose what to cover from air of den of bears and settlement Mansi people with an aggregate number in 50 … 60 persons in the sum. I do not know as in Romania, but at us this the expensive and is not necessary. There are other objects for such surface-to-air missile systems.
3. The Same operates with operational and tactical rockets. Near to Dyatlov pass (within action radius) they «are necessary just to shoot on the people », on more they will be not capable. To border much further is.
4. I am always be sceptical about interview to relatives of victims, if they not experts in that area about what they speak. It it is obvious not the expert and not so well knows about what spoke. This ring have found in 1999, and it to С-200 (S-200) has no relation.
URL=http://radikal.ru](https://d.radikal.ru/d05/2005/6b/e1fb5717ed73.jpg)[/URL
It is detail nozzle terminations from УР-100 (UR-100) which fragments have found then and bit later even is closer to pass. It too later type of the rocket. Therefore we again rests against time machine
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WAB, thank you for your detailed answer. You obviously know a lot about the case. I hope you don’t mind me asking some follow-up questions.
Certainly I do not object. :)
We for this purpose also communicates at this forum.
1. Official records sometimes disappear when they’re not agreeable to the powers that be. The memoirs of the people at Kapustin Yar at that time can tell us more. Has anyone researched in depth, interviewed those involved at KY in the R-12 program about those first months (Jan, Feb) of 1959? Do we know for a fact that testing ended in Dec 1958? Nobody swept a final test gone wrong under the rug? Do you have testimony on that?
You in vain think that it is possible to spend what that «underground tests». First of all think of that, what for it is necessary … Neither I nor who that of developers of such rockets of it does not know and is not going to do. It is so long, careful and expensive work that anybody will not do it. Besides, all tests Р-12 (R-12) have passed very well and the reasons to do that that yet was not any.
2. I’m not sure if I understand you correctly, but are you saying there was an R-5M launch on Feb 2 at Kapustin Yar, targeted at Balkhash Lake? And you researched that one and ruled it out? That’s what you are saying?
Yes, it is so. Besides, I am is the expert in this technics and I accurately see where there are problems in the given information. And if they are not present, I do not understand, for what all complicate?
3. On self-liquidators/self-destruct switches. The thing about the R-12 that caught my attention was its fully autonomous guidance system. It was supposed to find its way all by its self without any (emergency) input from ground/radio control. IMHO ground control would not have been able to blow up the missile in case of emergency. And its guidance system would have made the missile particularly vulnerable to integrational drift without the on board computer ever “knowing” it deviated from course. What’s your opinion?
It is natural that at Р-12 (R-12) was independent (inertial - on the basis of gyroscopes) prompting system, but during tests a self-liquidation radio channel as well as the channel of transfer of the telemetering information have been established. Besides, the Control system traces course to within degree shares, and change is less than on degree gives a command on self-liquidation. Otherwise the rocket will arrive at all there where it have started. Besides, the course change on pair degrees (by the way what to get on pass the rocket should deviate more than on 90 degrees) will lead to that Koriolis`s acceleration will destroy it mechanically. With travelling speeds more than some km/s of joke are bad.
4. The one thing that bothers me most about the R-12 theory is the possible orientation of the missile’s trajectory. As far as I know test missiles from Kapustin Yar were usually directed east – towards the “empty” plains of Kazakhstan –the salt marshes of Tengiz and as you mention Lake Balkhash. Do you know of any missile test at KY directed north during the 50s, 60s?
No, such tests were not and could not be, because there are no regular fields of falling of fragments and ultimate goals. Therefore it is simple conversations of people, which is very weak (or in general in any way) are informed on such actions.
Except this data which I have at University and in firms where projected rockets, and I have some persons which served on different rocket ranges. For example, my neighbour on my ranch served in Kapustin Yar (KY) and Plesetsk.
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There aren't any specifics, other than fitting the evidence.
And there really is no evidence to suggest it was a Missile or similar.
Evidence for a missile :-- Orange snow
- Orange powder on YuriD's sweater.
- Tips of branches of trees at treeline burnt.
- Burnt skin and burnt clothing.
- Injuries consistent with lightweight metal fragment impacts on three/four bodies each unique but of a similar pattern.
- Facial injuries consistent with chemical burns including eyelid tissue within the protection of the eye socket (Zinaida - autopsy stated abrasions?).
- Strange orange/brown skin at funerals suggesting unknown delayed chemical reaction.
- Mysterious night photographs of intense light sources.
- Askenadzi stated that in 1959 the official story was "a missile".
How much Orange Snow = not a lot.
Orange Powder on one persons sweater = ! ?
How many tips of branches were supposedly burnt = ! ?
Burnt Skin and Clothing = ! ?
Injuries due to lightweight metal fragments = where are the fragments in the bodies ! ?
Facial Injuries = Look very similar to Cattle Mutilations.
Colour of some bodies at Funeral looked a bit strange = Not surprising after what they went through. Driven from their Tent, virtually naked for those conditions, in Sub Zero Temperatures. Experienced an UNKNOWN FORCE. And then end up being examined in a Laboratory.
The night photos, if thats what they were, didnt look like a Missile explosion or anything like.
The Official Story has never been revealed. All we have had are conflicting stories from the Authorities.
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Them is so much, how many it can be demanded.
1. С-200 (S-200) have started develop only in 1964, have taken advantage in 1967. Therefore the time machine for participation in incident Dyatlov pass is again necessary.
2. Any rockets do not put anywhere but only there where they are necessary. Therefore if you spend circle in radius to 200 km (300 km are you have in vain believed to stereotyped article in Wikipedia, there weight of errors. It is radar has radius of 270 km, instead of the rocket) from Dyatlov pass receive that they there are required only for this purpose what to cover from air of den of bears and settlement Mansi people with an aggregate number in 50 … 60 persons in the sum. I do not know as in Romania, but at us this the expensive and is not necessary. There are other objects for such surface-to-air missile systems.
3. The Same operates with operational and tactical rockets. Near to Dyatlov pass (within action radius) they «are necessary just to shoot on the people », on more they will be not capable. To border much further is.
4. I am always be sceptical about interview to relatives of victims, if they not experts in that area about what they speak. It it is obvious not the expert and not so well knows about what spoke. This ring have found in 1999, and it to С-200 (S-200) has no relation.
Dear WAB, as you know, there are many positions into which surface-to-ground rockets can be positioned. Tipically they are placed near important military or civilian installations or cities, or in/near testing grounds. Not all those positions are known , as some of them being in secret locations/emplacements.
It is detail nozzle terminations from УР-100 (UR-100) which fragments have found then and bit later even is closer to pass. It too later type of the rocket. Therefore we again rests against time machine
Ok, it's the UR-100 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UR-100).
But how and why did that debris end up there ? Why were such debris found in that place ?
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Well, evidence means there is an obvious, or at least a plausible connection between the thing you are trying to prove (i.e. missile) and the pieces of evidence (i.e. orange stuff). AFAIK there is no known relationship between orange stuff on snow, faces and sweaters and missiles in the sky. There is no reason to attribute the burns on kids dying from hypothermia to missiles when there is this obvious source, the fire they were trying to start/keep going, for their burns. The same goes for the other injuries you mention. It really doesn't point to there being a missile.
I'm not sure about Ivanov's burnt treetops. On the one hand it is the kind of thing someone would make up (even subconsciously!) to strengthen his/her story about Unidentified Flying Objects. On the other hand it's so unassuming that I think it may be a proper recollection. I lean towards the latter explanation. People don't make up simple stuff to prove something extraordinary. I think he remembered something.
As far as the photographs are concerned: frame 34 an Zolotaryov's "three heads" are really important evidence. The "plane" pictures aren't photographs, imho. I have to write a separate post on that. Cheers!
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. You've got signs of vomiting, bleeding head orifices, Zina's face, burnt trees all suggesting chemical exposure and evidence of some "orange agent", impact wounds suggesting lightweight sharp objects, third degree burns from a modest campfire. Photos across several cameras of intense illumination at night.
Whether the missile theory is true or not i don't know but it is a plausible theory that fits the evidence.....
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Them is so much, how many it can be demanded.
1. С-200 (S-200) have started develop only in 1964, have taken advantage in 1967. Therefore the time machine for participation in incident Dyatlov pass is again necessary.
What about this one: https://dyatlovpass.com/rocket "[...]and the statement of the Head of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, Ermash, made to the sister of the deceased, Kolevatova, that the remaining 4 people, not found yet, couldn’t have lived after the death of their comrades more than 2 hours, makes us think that the violent, sudden escape from the tent was caused by a rocket shell and radiation near the mountain 1079, that forced them to escape from it further and, it is believed, affected vital activity of people, in particular, the vision. The light of the rocket shells was seen in Serov on February 2 at about 7 am ... it surprises me why the hiking routes from Ivdel were not closed ... If the rocket deviated and did not reach the planned test site, in my opinion, the agency that launched the rocket, must send to the site of the fall and conduct aerial investigation to find out what is the aftermath of the accident. ... If aerial investigation took place we can assumed that the remaining four people were picked up "
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Greetings again everyone. On May 27, Marley mentioned the photos of what was supposed to be a plane. The objects you see are supposedly blank photos that were blown up 1000 times in order to get an image. If you had to blow something up 1000 times to see it in a photo, then you wouldn't be able to see it with the naked eye in order to photograph it ( I would assume).
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Them is so much, how many it can be demanded.
1. С-200 (S-200) have started develop only in 1964, have taken advantage in 1967. Therefore the time machine for participation in incident Dyatlov pass is again necessary.
What about this one: https://dyatlovpass.com/rocket (https://dyatlovpass.com/rocket) "[...]and the statement of the Head of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, Ermash, made to the sister of the deceased, Kolevatova, that the remaining 4 people, not found yet, couldn’t have lived after the death of their comrades more than 2 hours, makes us think that the violent, sudden escape from the tent was caused by a rocket shell and radiation near the mountain 1079, that forced them to escape from it further and, it is believed, affected vital activity of people, in particular, the vision. The light of the rocket shells was seen in Serov on February 2 at about 7 am ... it surprises me why the hiking routes from Ivdel were not closed ... If the rocket deviated and did not reach the planned test site, in my opinion, the agency that launched the rocket, must send to the site of the fall and conduct aerial investigation to find out what is the aftermath of the accident. ... If aerial investigation took place we can assumed that the remaining four people were picked up "
Try arguing for - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina (from 1957)
WAB could have pointed that out to you but didn't. kewl1
The S75 upper stage using nitric acid as a hypergolic fuel component of course kewl1
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Them is so much, how many it can be demanded.
1. С-200 (S-200) have started develop only in 1964, have taken advantage in 1967. Therefore the time machine for participation in incident Dyatlov pass is again necessary.
What about this one: https://dyatlovpass.com/rocket (https://dyatlovpass.com/rocket) "[...]and the statement of the Head of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, Ermash, made to the sister of the deceased, Kolevatova, that the remaining 4 people, not found yet, couldn’t have lived after the death of their comrades more than 2 hours, makes us think that the violent, sudden escape from the tent was caused by a rocket shell and radiation near the mountain 1079, that forced them to escape from it further and, it is believed, affected vital activity of people, in particular, the vision. The light of the rocket shells was seen in Serov on February 2 at about 7 am ... it surprises me why the hiking routes from Ivdel were not closed ... If the rocket deviated and did not reach the planned test site, in my opinion, the agency that launched the rocket, must send to the site of the fall and conduct aerial investigation to find out what is the aftermath of the accident. ... If aerial investigation took place we can assumed that the remaining four people were picked up "
Try arguing for - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina (from 1957)
WAB could have pointed that out to you but didn't. kewl1
The S75 upper stage using nitric acid as a hypergolic fuel component of course kewl1
I suspect more about the ballistic (such as the R-7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-7_Semyorka and R-12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-12_Dvina#The_beginning) and anti-ballistic (such as V-1000 https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/v-1000.htm ) soviet systems... Their range was in the thousands of kilometres, and the explosive warhead was massive.
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I suspect more about the ballistic (such as the R-7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-7_Semyorka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-7_Semyorka) and R-12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-12_Dvina#The_beginning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-12_Dvina#The_beginning)) and anti-ballistic (such as V-1000 https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/v-1000.htm (https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/v-1000.htm) ) soviet systems... Their range was in the thousands of kilometres, and the explosive warhead was massive.
Ok apologies. The R7 used LOX, so no good. But the testing of of V400/V1000 series with an R12 would be an excellent fit for the theory. Thanks.
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I suspect more about the ballistic (such as the R-7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-7_Semyorka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-7_Semyorka) and R-12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-12_Dvina#The_beginning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-12_Dvina#The_beginning)) and anti-ballistic (such as V-1000 https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/v-1000.htm (https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/v-1000.htm) ) soviet systems... Their range was in the thousands of kilometres, and the explosive warhead was massive.
Ok apologies. The R7 used LOX, so no good. But the testing of of V400/V1000 series with an R12 would be an excellent fit for the theory. Thanks.
No appologies necessary - I wrote above about the S-200 (C-200) because it was mentioned in Lyubidina brother's interview...
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Well, evidence means there is an obvious, or at least a plausible connection between the thing you are trying to prove (i.e. missile) and the pieces of evidence (i.e. orange stuff). AFAIK there is no known relationship between orange stuff on snow, faces and sweaters and missiles in the sky. There is no reason to attribute the burns on kids dying from hypothermia to missiles when there is this obvious source, the fire they were trying to start/keep going, for their burns. The same goes for the other injuries you mention. It really doesn't point to there being a missile.
I'm not sure about Ivanov's burnt treetops. On the one hand it is the kind of thing someone would make up (even subconsciously!) to strengthen his/her story about Unidentified Flying Objects. On the other hand it's so unassuming that I think it may be a proper recollection. I lean towards the latter explanation. People don't make up simple stuff to prove something extraordinary. I think he remembered something.
As far as the photographs are concerned: frame 34 an Zolotaryov's "three heads" are really important evidence. The "plane" pictures aren't photographs, imho. I have to write a separate post on that. Cheers!
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. You've got signs of vomiting, bleeding head orifices, Zina's face, burnt trees all suggesting chemical exposure and evidence of some "orange agent", impact wounds suggesting lightweight sharp objects, third degree burns from a modest campfire. Photos across several cameras of intense illumination at night.
Whether the missile theory is true or not i don't know but it is a plausible theory that fits the evidence.....
It will probably appear under this category: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Soviet_coverups , some time in the future.
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So we now we seem to have a very credible narrative - "The V-1000 (https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/v-1000.htm) was the first Soviet anti-ballistic missile system, developed in 1956. It intercepted and destroyed an intermediate range ballistic missile warhead coming in at 3km/s on May 4 1961. The US did not demonstrate an equivalent missile until 1984. It was launched 37 times and failed only 5 time with a success rate of 85%."
All we need is a top secret test in 1959.
And then from the same link - " US intelligence community reported 31 October 1962 that "We know that the Soviets have for more than five years been conducting a high priority and extensive program to develop defenses against ballistic missiles. At Sary Shagan, west of Lake Balkhash, they have created a heavily instrumental R&D center extending over some 8,500 square miles, with housing accommodations for at least 40,000 personnel. Since 1957 more than 200 missiles, of various ranges up to 1,050 n.m., have been launched into this center, thus providing much data on re-entry characteristics. It is almost certain that during the past two years [ed: ie, since 1960] attempts have been made to intercept incoming missiles by defensive missiles launched from Sary Shagan."
3km/s is mach 8.8! I'm regularly struck with how impressive Soviet missile technology was in this era, the Burya - an intercontinental cruise missile that steered by the stars, now the V-1000 successfully intercepting targets traveling at mach9!
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3km/s is mach 8.8! I'm regularly struck with how impressive Soviet missile technology was in this era, the Burya - an intercontinental cruise missile that steered by the stars, now the V-1000 successfully intercepting targets traveling at mach9!
Formidable rockets for their time...
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ballistic_missile#Soviet_Union
The first successful test interception was carried out on 24 November 1960, and the first with a live warhead on 4 March 1961. In this test, a dummy warhead was released by a R-12 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-12_(missile)) ballistic missile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_missile) launched from the Kapustin Yar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapustin_Yar),[76] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ballistic_missile#cite_note-gobarev-76) and intercepted by a V-1000 launched from Sary-Shagan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sary-Shagan). The dummy warhead was destroyed by the impact of 16,000 tungsten-carbide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungsten-carbide) spherical impactors (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Impactors&action=edit&redlink=1) 140 seconds after launch, at an altitude of 25 km (82,000 ft).[77] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ballistic_missile#cite_note-Karpenko1999-77)
The altitude indicates the possibilty that a local cleanup operation would not be necessary. Just some fuel and "chaff" reaching the ground at the DPI.
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Them is so much, how many it can be demanded.
1. С-200 (S-200) have started develop only in 1964, have taken advantage in 1967. Therefore the time machine for participation in incident Dyatlov pass is again necessary.
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Dear WAB, as you know, there are many positions into which surface-to-ground rockets can be positioned. Tipically they are placed near important military or civilian installations or cities, or in/near testing grounds. Not all those positions are known , as some of them being in secret locations/emplacements.
Dear alecsandros !
You in vain think that such positions can be hidden, as needle in haystack. All places of positions which were in 50, 60 and 70th years for long time already are known. If they are not known to you it does not mean that who that another did not investigate this question before you on it answer.
I do not understand, how can be confidential place if it is «near to important military either civil objects or cities, or in / about proving grounds» (c). Even if it is object far in a taiga at modern level of investigation (including space) about it quickly learn. Therefore also there were different systems of masking on that place where they can be well visible, but they cannot be traced precisely because constantly движутся and them it is a lot of point. These are so-called «mobile complexes» or containers on railway platforms or the ships which are disguised under usual civil objects.
It is detail nozzle terminations from УР-100 (UR-100) which fragments have found then and bit later even is closer to pass. It too later type of the rocket. Therefore we again rests against time machine
Ok, it's the UR-100 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UR-100).
But how and why did that debris end up there ? Why were such debris found in that place ?
As Sherlock Holmes spoke: «It is elementary, Watson! :) »: from the locations rocket armies to the west of this area there were educational start-up to range Kamchatka peninsula (it is located far in the east). For certain one of them was unsuccessful then these fragments have appeared there where they have appeared.
If I that that understand that in rockets ballistics (having scientific degree equal PhD :) ) these are start-up from this disctrict (about Perm city or the Tatishchevo city -near Saratov city). These places are known for long time also some of them any more are not workers.
By the way, we have again distracted from the main theme towards "time machine". For us to the cores and the main thing is 1959 when the basic and main rocket which was on arms, is Р-5м (R-5m). All the rest was already after that, and does not concern to that we discuss.
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Them is so much, how many it can be demanded.
1. С-200 (S-200) have started develop only in 1964, have taken advantage in 1967. Therefore the time machine for participation in incident Dyatlov pass is again necessary.
What about this one: https://dyatlovpass.com/rocket "[...]and the statement of the Head of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, Ermash, made to the sister of the deceased, Kolevatova, that the remaining 4 people, not found yet, couldn’t have lived after the death of their comrades more than 2 hours, makes us think that the violent, sudden escape from the tent was caused by a rocket shell and radiation near the mountain 1079, that forced them to escape from it further and, it is believed, affected vital activity of people, in particular, the vision. The light of the rocket shells was seen in Serov on February 2 at about 7 am ... it surprises me why the hiking routes from Ivdel were not closed ... If the rocket deviated and did not reach the planned test site, in my opinion, the agency that launched the rocket, must send to the site of the fall and conduct aerial investigation to find out what is the aftermath of the accident. ... If aerial investigation took place we can assumed that the remaining four people were picked up "
It is continuation of that I already spoke in the previous messages:
«I am always be sceptical about interview to relatives of victims, if they not experts in that area about what they speak.» (c) https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=644.msg9241#msg9241 Reply #34
If you want concrete answer at first precisely answer such questions which already will give at once you answers about which I already mentioned:
1.Who from those who speaks was the expert in about what speaks (as particular in the rocket technics)? The help: Filip Ermash - the party functionary with higher education in the field history teaching in school from the general university of the Sverdlovsk city, Rimma Kolevatova - the teacher-philologist, with similar formation of pedagogical university.
By the way, Ermash never was «head Sverdlovsk “obcom” (Regional Committee) Communist party of Soviet Union» (c). It was then Andrey Kirilenko, and Ermash was head one from many departments in it “obcom” (Regional Committee). Then it was the head cinema department by the USSR Ministry of culture.
2. Who also what is exact выдел on February, 02nd in the city of Ivdel? About it there is what that documents or authentic certificates? Then specify: where also what? I have not found them for last 15 years when searched for this information on different sources. There were only conversations round this theme and was nothing more.
3. About 7 o'clock in morning Vladislav Karelin's group on Ural ridge observed such picture on February, 17th during the travel. https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-290-292?rbid=17743 . Too this phenomenon observed in the Nizhniy Тagil city (and in Ivdel city) about what there are records in criminal case - note meteorologist N. Tokareva (sheet 227 <https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-227?rbid=17743>) and as a note in the newspaper «Tagilsky Rabochy (Worker)» (sheet 344 <https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-344?rbid=17743>), and also indications of witnesses (soldiers from the Ivdel city) Savkin, Malik, Novikov and Anisimov (sheets from 264 <https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-264?rbid=17743> to 267 <https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-267?rbid=17743>), but all it concerns supervision on February, 17th 1959 "Fiery Spheres» that to within minutes coincides with start R-7 rocket from range "Baikanur". Too most is on March, 31st 1959. But any certificates (except different conversations which prove to be true nothing!) About February, 02nd is not present. Such coincidence, to within minutes does not happen that it would be the different phenomena. As well as there can not be from anything «Light of rocket shells has been noticed in Serov city on February, 2nd about 7 o'clock in the morning» (c) for people very far that they know and as «rocket shells» are shone (c). They could mix dates if it told that observed on February, 17th, but give out wished for valid it is not meaningful for investigation.
Round this event there were many different conversations «about rockets» because then it there was very fashionable theme, as now about UFO and about "Yeti" (about Menk or about Snow man). But conversations are virtual, and the validity is concrete and has weight of acknowledgement that never have simply virtual conversations.
Other of this citation does not concern to that we now discuss.
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Try arguing for - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina (from 1957)
WAB could have pointed that out to you but didn't. kewl1
It is one more deadlock branch of conversation. It is possible spend lot time and again come to deadlock. Therefore I do not hasten do it. Also I do not aspire to it.
The S75 upper stage using nitric acid as a hypergolic fuel component of course kewl1
This rockets on pass (their radius of action is equal 30 … 40 km or 20…25 mi), certainly protected dens of bears from attack of malicious UFOS for there more than anything to protect was not. :), certainly, more all disturbed to bears as is HNO3. :)
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I do not understand, how can be confidential place if it is «near to important military either civil objects or cities, or in / about proving grounds» (c). Even if it is object far in a taiga at modern level of investigation (including space) about it quickly learn. Therefore also there were different systems of masking on that place where they can be well visible, but they cannot be traced precisely because constantly движутся and them it is a lot of point. These are so-called «mobile complexes» or containers on railway platforms or the ships which are disguised under usual civil objects.
When I was on the forum Kbismarck.com, I learnt that in the UK archives there are files that are sealed and secretised for 75 years. Others are secretised for 100 years. So, when it comes to national states, the secrecy can be maintained for a very long time.
Ok, it's the UR-100 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UR-100).
As Sherlock Holmes spoke: «It is elementary, Watson! :) »: from the locations rocket armies to the west of this area there were educational start-up to range Kamchatka peninsula (it is located far in the east). For certain one of them was unsuccessful then these fragments have appeared there where they have appeared.
If I that that understand that in rockets ballistics (having scientific degree equal PhD :) ) these are start-up from this disctrict (about Perm city or the Tatishchevo city -near Saratov city). These places are known for long time also some of them any more are not workers.
By the way, we have again distracted from the main theme towards "time machine". For us to the cores and the main thing is 1959 when the basic and main rocket which was on arms, is Р-5м (R-5m). All the rest was already after that, and does not concern to that we discuss.
There is the problem - that UR-100 rocket shouldn't have been there.
The fact that it was there , sometimes in the 60s or 70s, indicates that the trials of ICBMs produced debris in the area of Dyatovlav Pass.
If more extensive searches are done, maybe other debris will be found.
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By the way, we have again distracted from the main theme towards "time machine". For us to the cores and the main thing is 1959 when the basic and main rocket which was on arms, is Р-5м (R-5m). All the rest was already after that, and does not concern to that we discuss.
R-7 and R-12 were also existent at the time of Fev 1959. They were undergoing test launches from Kapustin Yar.
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This rockets on pass (their radius of action is equal 30 … 40 km or 20…25 mi), certainly protected dens of bears from attack of malicious UFOS for there more than anything to protect was not. :), certainly, more all disturbed to bears as is HNO3. :)
Good that the bears could sleep peacefully. lol4
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When I was on the forum Kbismarck.com, I learnt that in the UK archives there are files that are sealed and secretised for 75 years. Others are secretised for 100 years. So, when it comes to national states, the secrecy can be maintained for a very long time.
There is an information in archives which never probably will open. Only what relation it has about discussed theme?
Here you are capable formulate the real reason on which it «is so much years all is confidential»?
Even it is more confidential, than the information, say it so, about murder J.F.Kennedy.
I understand it so that, there is no information only because hid nothing, because there was nothing hide. But if you are not capable explain that occurred the usual and logical reasons it not occasion, what accuse whom that they hide that.
Ok, it's the UR-100 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UR-100).
As Sherlock Holmes spoke: «It is elementary, Watson! :) »: from the locations rocket armies to the west
.......................................................
By the way, we have again distracted from the main theme towards "time machine". For us to the cores and the main thing is 1959 when the basic and main rocket which was on arms, is Р-5м (R-5m). All the rest was already after that, and does not concern to that we discuss.
There is the problem - that UR-100 rocket shouldn't have been there.
Who has solved it?
It is actually, but these are later events, therefore it does not need to be considered as the events connected by Dyatlov incident. If not o separate that is required from following stratifications all will constantly go on circle. As occurs those who does not reflect that is necessary, and that there is extraneous. The information on the validity of those events and so it is too littered by constant information noise. Especially journalists here are zealous. Very few people has desire understand that was, and that there are extraneous stratifications.
The fact that it was there , sometimes in the 60s or 70s, indicates that the trials of ICBMs produced debris in the area of Dyatovlav Pass.
It is not necessary to confuse wished with the valid. Any "tests" for this place was not. There was an unsuccessful educational start-up from places of usual rocket regiments. Fragments have appeared on this place. If failure has occurred a bit later (or earlier) that fragments would be in other place. But and here relationship to events Dyatlov group?
If more extensive searches are done, maybe other debris will be found.
Well. At us it is accepted speak: «Any initiative should be punished - who has offered, should do it!» Go there and search! Only it is necessary separate that was in events about which we discuss and that was not. For example, that was already after. If it not to do, it will be vain work.
I think that the further conversation should be continued only after you discovered rockets fragments about period of 1969 and earlier.
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By the way, we have again distracted from the main theme towards "time machine". For us to the cores and the main thing is 1959 when the basic and main rocket which was on arms, is Р-5м (R-5m). All the rest was already after that, and does not concern to that we discuss.
R-7 and R-12 were also existent at the time of Fev 1959.
What means "existed"? They were, but any start Р-12 for all time of search and Р-7 till February, 17th 1959 was not. To disguise it as it is difficult how to cover an elephant with a baseball cap. It is possible, if either an elephant small, or a cap big … :)
But it will be already called fraud :)
Generally speaking, conversation when on the one hand result simply gossips or inventions, and with another - the real information already starts to bother me.
Let's or operate confirmed and trustworthy information, or I stop this conversation.
They were undergoing test launches from Kapustin Yar.
1. Tests Р-12 (R-12) have been FINISHED in December 1958. I hope word "ARE finished" to you clearly? And any actions before acceptance on arms AND manufacturing of new rockets did not undertake. As well as you, cannot buy anything, yet have not got wages. To you it too anybody «is simple so» and will not pay in advance?
2. Tests and rocket P-7 (R-7) operational development passed on range Tura-Tam (or Baikonur - as now it name), but from January, 02nd till February, 17th 1959 any starts were not, because on range there was no suitable rocket. Therefore there was nothing to start. That start trajectories therefrom go in general to other party is an additional minus in your ideas.
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This rockets on pass (their radius of action is equal 30 … 40 km or 20…25 mi), certainly protected dens of bears from attack of malicious UFOS for there more than anything to protect was not. :), certainly, more all disturbed to bears as is HNO3. :)
Good that the bears could sleep peacefully. lol4
Undoubtedly!
When I there will be once again, I will tell to them that you too are happy with it and worried for them … :)
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What means "existed"? They were, but any start Р-12 for all time of search and Р-7 till February, 17th 1959 was not. To disguise it as it is difficult how to cover an elephant with a baseball cap. It is possible, if either an elephant small, or a cap big … :)
To exist (verb) = have objective reality or being.
They were undergoing test launches from Kapustin Yar.
1. Tests Р-12 (R-12) have been FINISHED in December 1958. I hope word "ARE finished" to you clearly? And any actions before acceptance on arms AND manufacturing of new rockets did not undertake. As well as you, cannot buy anything, yet have not got wages. To you it too anybody «is simple so» and will not pay in advance?
2. Tests and rocket P-7 (R-7) operational development passed on range Tura-Tam (or Baikonur - as now it name), but from January, 02nd till February, 17th 1959 any starts were not, because on range there was no suitable rocket. Therefore there was nothing to start. That start trajectories therefrom go in general to other party is an additional minus in your ideas.
Previously you wrote that rocket tests only existed in controlled environments - target ranges, equipped with the necessary apparatus to evaluate the parameters of the launch.
However, parts from at least one UR-100 were found in Dyatovlav Pass.
That contradicts what you wrote , and is testament to the fact that ICBM's were not as strictly controlled in USSR as some would like to believe.
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There is an information in archives which never probably will open. Only what relation it has about discussed theme?
Here you are capable formulate the real reason on which it «is so much years all is confidential»?
Even it is more confidential, than the information, say it so, about murder J.F.Kennedy.
I understand it so that, there is no information only because hid nothing, because there was nothing hide. But if you are not capable explain that occurred the usual and logical reasons it not occasion, what accuse whom that they hide that.
The secrecy of certain documents is imposed by the branch that is archiving the document. It's simple.
IF it is a high-level cover-up, THEN it requires to remain SECRET.
And there is a Government Agency which is mandated, amongst others, to maintain the files in question, and to approve (or not) their viewing by authorised personell only.
Who has solved it?
What do you mean, in English ?
It is not necessary to confuse wished with the valid. Any "tests" for this place was not. There was an unsuccessful educational start-up from places of usual rocket regiments. Fragments have appeared on this place. If failure has occurred a bit later (or earlier) that fragments would be in other place. But and here relationship to events Dyatlov group?
"Educational start-up" ?
Exactly how did those remains end up on the Dyatlov Pass ?
Well. At us it is accepted speak: «Any initiative should be punished - who has offered, should do it!» Go there and search! Only it is necessary separate that was in events about which we discuss and that was not. For example, that was already after. If it not to do, it will be vain work.
I think that the further conversation should be continued only after you discovered rockets fragments about period of 1969 and earlier.
No, that is not my responsibility. Because I do not parade pretending to know the absolute truth...
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1. Tests Р-12 (R-12) have been FINISHED in December 1958. I hope word "ARE finished" to you clearly? And any actions before acceptance on arms AND manufacturing of new rockets did not undertake. As well as you, cannot buy anything, yet have not got wages. To you it too anybody «is simple so» and will not pay in advance?
2. Tests and rocket P-7 (R-7) operational development passed on range Tura-Tam (or Baikonur - as now it name), but from January, 02nd till February, 17th 1959 any starts were not, because on range there was no suitable rocket. Therefore there was nothing to start. That start trajectories therefrom go in general to other party is an additional minus in your ideas.
On what did they test the V-1000 ABM's ? On paper rockets ? Or on R-12s and R-7s ?
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What means "existed"? They were, but any start Р-12 for all time of search and Р-7 till February, 17th 1959 was not. To disguise it as it is difficult how to cover an elephant with a baseball cap. It is possible, if either an elephant small, or a cap big … :)
To exist (verb) = have objective reality or being.
Oh, how everything is négligered in the intellectual field... If you don't even understand the semantics (meaning) this question, then I don't have any idea how talk to you at all....
The fact that there is a verb doesn't make it out of anything that wasn't launched then. Do you know what this method of discussion is called?
I can call it next time...
By the way, the key question is: what do you want prove? That the white is a black?
They were undergoing test launches from Kapustin Yar.
1. Tests Р-12 (R-12) have been FINISHED in December 1958. I hope word "ARE finished" to you clearly? And any actions before acceptance on arms AND manufacturing of new rockets did not undertake. As well as you, cannot buy anything, yet have not got wages. To you it too anybody «is simple so» and will not pay in advance?
2. Tests and rocket P-7 (R-7) operational development passed on range Tura-Tam (or Baikonur - as now it name), but from January, 02nd till February, 17th 1959 any starts were not, because on range there was no suitable rocket. Therefore there was nothing to start. That start trajectories therefrom go in general to other party is an additional minus in your ideas.
Previously you wrote that rocket tests only existed in controlled environments - target ranges, equipped with the necessary apparatus to evaluate the parameters of the launch.
However, parts from at least one UR-100 were found in Dyatovlav Pass.
That contradicts what you wrote , and is testament to the fact that ICBM's were not as strictly controlled in USSR as some would like to believe.
This is the third time I've written for the "highly educated and understanding":
1. This wreckage has nothing to do with the tests.
2. An emergency launch of an intercontinental missile from a wax building site on an existing range can drop the wreckage anywhere in its trajectory.
3. Constant twitching of concepts (moving later time to the time of events) is a sign of perception damage.
…………………………………………………….
If you are unable to understand that the subject of this conversation can only be the events within the incident (in reality, from February 01 to February 26, 1959 or extensively from January 23 to May 28, 1959, which is clearly not necessary), then I do not understand how you can even understand more complex questions?
If it is not clear even now, it is necessary either to raise the level of education in the field you are talking about, or go to doctor.
Is the term "ICBM's were not as strictly controlled in USSR" even incomprehensible to you? If you only have your own concept of it, then talk to yourself. Or find yourself a "your own level" interlocutor. grin1
I'm not going to sink to your level. kewl1
PS. Please at least learn the correct name for the group leader - Dyatlov, and do not disgrace yourself with your "knowledge" in this topic.
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There is an information in archives which never probably will open. Only what relation it has about discussed theme?
Here you are capable formulate the real reason on which it «is so much years all is confidential»?
Even it is more confidential, than the information, say it so, about murder J.F.Kennedy.
I understand it so that, there is no information only because hid nothing, because there was nothing hide. But if you are not capable explain that occurred the usual and logical reasons it not occasion, what accuse whom that they hide that.
The secrecy of certain documents is imposed by the branch that is archiving the document. It's simple.
IF it is a high-level cover-up, THEN it requires to remain SECRET.
And there is a Government Agency which is mandated, amongst others, to maintain the files in question, and to approve (or not) their viewing by authorised personell only.
You write completely abstract words, so for this case it's just empty words. Which have nothing to do with the topic of discussion.
You have found some "beautiful" words on the Internet, and what they mean - do not know at all. Neither in the technical field, nor in the historical field (dates and related events), nor in the economic field (how much does it cost to do it and whether there were such means then), nor in the geography of events. .
Do you intend to continue in the same way?
There is no secrecy where it does not exist. It is especially clear when there is not even any sign of it.
It's because you're replacing real knowledge with fiction.
Who has solved it?
What do you mean, in English ?
What I mean in any language is that no one can solve what the wreckage can't be there. And this applies to any place, in particular, near the Dyatlov pass.
They are either there or they are not.
I have already told you three times why they are there and why they have nothing to do with events. If you don't understand it stupidly or don't want to understand it, nobody can help you here anymore.
It is not necessary to confuse wished with the valid. Any "tests" for this place was not. There was an unsuccessful educational start-up from places of usual rocket regiments. Fragments have appeared on this place. If failure has occurred a bit later (or earlier) that fragments would be in other place. But and here relationship to events Dyatlov group?
"Educational start-up" ?
Exactly how did those remains end up on the Dyatlov Pass ?
Do you really stupidly not understand normal words, or do you disguise yourself so skillfully?
If you don't know what "rocket training launch" are, then I don't understand what you can talk about at all?
Well. At us it is accepted speak: «Any initiative should be punished - who has offered, should do it!» Go there and search! Only it is necessary separate that was in events about which we discuss and that was not. For example, that was already after. If it not to do, it will be vain work.
I think that the further conversation should be continued only after you discovered rockets fragments about period of 1969 and earlier.
No, that is not my responsibility. Because I do not parade pretending to know the absolute truth...
Very comfortable position: to lie at home on the sofa and make up tall tales...
As for missile technology in the USSR, I know almost everything - I am professional. And what I wrote is the best proof of that. Especially compared to the murky nonsense that you constantly write with the naivety young child and the obstinacy as maniac, trying find black cat in dark room with his eyes closed.
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1. Tests Р-12 (R-12) have been FINISHED in December 1958. I hope word "ARE finished" to you clearly? And any actions before acceptance on arms AND manufacturing of new rockets did not undertake. As well as you, cannot buy anything, yet have not got wages. To you it too anybody «is simple so» and will not pay in advance?
2. Tests and rocket P-7 (R-7) operational development passed on range Tura-Tam (or Baikonur - as now it name), but from January, 02nd till February, 17th 1959 any starts were not, because on range there was no suitable rocket. Therefore there was nothing to start. That start trajectories therefrom go in general to other party is an additional minus in your ideas.
On what did they test the V-1000 ABM's ? On paper rockets ? Or on R-12s and R-7s ?
This is such a good method of conversation, which is called "frank demagogy": all the time moving from one section to another without answering the questions already asked. And constantly demonstrating its dilettantism in the topic under discussion.
Specifically:
1. For you really, as for young child - all the tests are constant throwing of stones puddle. And that's all it is. What is called the preparatory phase, it does not mean anything to you ... that's what they were doing there. Including construction, setting up equipment, theoretical and application work on site. Or, as you said, "paper rockets." But you are "dark" person in these matters, they (these works) mean nothing to you.
2. The first B-1000 throw missile launches were only in late 1959. Do you know what "throw missile launches" are? Then tell it to other readers here. In your own words and in detail:
-what's the point of these launches, ?
- how they're done, ?
- what results do they want?
- when were they (dates)?
I have known this for long time, and I have already taught this to my students on the basis of practical experience. And the extent to which you have the right knowledge, and how you can seriously talk to you on this topic will be clear to all readers at once.
Then everyone will understand who is who...
3. The first real rocket launch was only in 1960, so again you are twitching time for the events with Dyatlov's group. It's cheating trick.
4. The first real test wasn't until March 1961, so it's the same as the paragraph #3.
5. All initial tests (in 1960) were only on R-5m missiles, then R-12 were not used yet, so they just started to be supplied to the troops as combat units.
6. For R-7 missiles have never tested any anti-missile. This is your bullshit.
From everything written once again you can see your complete professional unsuitability for such conversations on missile topics, so you can come out with anger and empty words as much as you want, and I'm stopping this unnecessary conversation with you.
For the rest of us, if they are interested, I can answer any questions, even if we have go into detail. You only need have desire understand what they are saying, not try promote your own fantasies at any cost. It is highly recommended that you carefully read the aphorism that is now written in the first page of our forum.
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Oh, how everything is négligered in the intellectual field... If you don't even understand the semantics (meaning) this question, then I don't have any idea how talk to you at all....
The fact that there is a verb doesn't make it out of anything that wasn't launched then. Do you know what this method of discussion is called?
I can call it next time...
By the way, the key question is: what do you want prove? That the white is a black?
That the R-7 and R-12 rockets existed and were capable of being launched as of Fev 1st 1959.
This is the third time I've written for the "highly educated and understanding":
1. This wreckage has nothing to do with the tests.
2. An emergency launch of an intercontinental missile from a wax building site on an existing range can drop the wreckage anywhere in its trajectory.
3. Constant twitching of concepts (moving later time to the time of events) is a sign of perception damage.
If anyone can translate what WAB writes above, please do... I seriously don't understand what he wrote.
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You write completely abstract words, so for this case it's just empty words. Which have nothing to do with the topic of discussion.
You have found some "beautiful" words on the Internet, and what they mean - do not know at all. Neither in the technical field, nor in the historical field (dates and related events), nor in the economic field (how much does it cost to do it and whether there were such means then), nor in the geography of events. .
Do you intend to continue in the same way?
There is no secrecy where it does not exist. It is especially clear when there is not even any sign of it.
It's because you're replacing real knowledge with fiction.
There is nothing "abstract" about state secrets: they are what they are.
Some comments before, you mentioned the Kennedy assassination. I agree that that event can have parts of it that are classified as state secrets.
I'll give you another example: say you are in 1985 in Soviet Russia. And talking to a friend. He asks you: "do you know the history of Novocherkassk ?". You say "Yes, I have been there many times". "How is it there ?", your friend asks. And you describe de settlement. Years pass and it's 1992. And you both find out that in Novocherkassk happened a major event: "According to official investigation 26 were reportedly killed by troops, and 87 were wounded.[3] Arrests, show trials and cover-ups ensued aftermath: more than 200 were arrested; 7 people were convicted and sentenced to death over various "crimes" such as "mass disorder" and approximately hundreds of others were imprisoned up to 15 years (terms of some of which were later reduced);[4] news about events never appeared in state controlled press and held secret up until 1992]". So you and your friend where both unaware about this in 1985, but found out about it when it was declassified in 1992, or 30 years from the incident.
My hypotheses (I hope you understand the concept of a hypotheses !) is that some aspects of Dyatlov Pass Incident are STILL classified, especially about the way the group met it's end...
As for missile technology in the USSR, I know almost everything - I am professional.
Therefore you know all that is declassified about them - and if you have access to classified information, you wouldn't be posting it anywhere because that is the way such information is treated.
IF (be attentive - IF !) there was a rocket launch on Fev 1st, that gone bad, and caused the demise of the Dyatlov Group, then chances are that such launch was classified and material evidence concerning it be locked in a safe.
For example, I am thinking about:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelsat_708 (Chinese operational failure of a rocket launch , causing numerous victims).
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nedelin_catastrophe (Russia operational failure of a rocket launch, causing many victims and followed by cover-up);
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmos_482 (Russian mission that ultimately produced re-entry objects that fell in New Zeeland soil)
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This is such a good method of conversation, which is called "frank demagogy": all the time moving from one section to another without answering the questions already asked.
What questions ?
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And constantly demonstrating its dilettantism in the topic under discussion.
Mmm, it was you who said that R-7 and R-12 were introduced "later" [then the events on Dyatlov Pass] - which is not correct.
Also, you failed to mention the very important aspect of the meteorological rockets which were reported on Fev 1st and Fev 17th... (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-136-198)
"Sheet 167
Radiogram
To Sulman
2/III-59 - 18.30
[...]
The reason could be some kind of extreme natural phenomenon or the flight of a meteorological rocket that was seen on 1/II in Ivdel and on 17/II by Karelin's group period Tomorrow we will continue the search together with the new forces and make the planned shipment of goods. Small messages 0I Chernyshov and Sidorov groups amicably ask to be the last ones left here 2 candles are needed only 5 pieces left 3 tomorrow morning Kurikov group is going back gave them reference for their work period 4 I ask you to give a telegram Sverdlovsk Pervomayskaya 104 energochermet Maslennikov I am in the mountains healthy Zhenya"
I wonder why ? bang1
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I have heard that planes have serial numbers on some (or all parts) and from that number you can tell what kind of plane it is. Would rocket parts have serial numbers also?
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I have heard that planes have serial numbers on some (or all parts) and from that number you can tell what kind of plane it is. Would rocket parts have serial numbers also?
They do have serial numbers, but we would need to find the part of the rocket that had it written on it. Until now, no such parts have been recovered from the Pass, from what I know so far.
However, from the recovered parts, scientist's pronounced themselves that the rocket is of UR-100 type - employed after 1965. What this means for DPI is that that rocket didn't explode on 1959, but it also means that within that region, there did passed rockets , (albeit on a later time). This works for the hypotheses that there was secret launch of some type of weapon at or near the Pass, that started the fatal chain of events.
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I suspect more about the ballistic (such as the R-7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-7_Semyorka and R-12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-12_Dvina#The_beginning) and anti-ballistic (such as V-1000 https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/v-1000.htm ) soviet systems... Their range was in the thousands of kilometres, and the explosive warhead was massive.
Yes, it possible that some rocket fall down/exploded in that region when the Dyatlov Group was there but it not give any answers to the question why they leave tent or got that injuries.
Some facts:
-Not possible that it was done by anti-ballistic rockets as V-1000 or anti-aircraft as S-75 Dvina - they have max range of 55km. The closest place where such rackets was (1960 they shoot down U-2 aircraft) Sverdlovsk (today's Yekaterinburg). Later in the 1960s was some in Perm too.
-In late 50s and early 60s all rockets launches was made from bases, there was no mobile launchers on vehicles so we could ruled out the V-1000 or S-75 Dvina. As the territory of Soviet Union was well scanned by US spy aircraft we know locations of the rockets bases, not possible that they was some secret places. Of course US underestimates what Soviet Russia developed there but it is other story.
-the rockets that could reach Dyatlov Pass was R-7 or R-12. That are ballistic missile so the trajectory is: going up with booster engine, eject booster engine and travel vertically at the high of 200-500km (yeah, very high), the warhead goes down vertically down to the target. As all the launch bases was hundreds of kilometers from the Pass it was only possible that R-7 or R-12 rocket came there during the last stage - so vertical down, just warhead without booster(fuel).
-What important, 99% of tests was done without active warhead, just with dummy one with some measure equipment to get the flight parameters(I think it is obvious why nobody wants to test rocket with active warhead - fail during take off = fuel explosion+warhead explosion = huge distaste) The first knows test with active warhead was done in September 1961(was some attempt in June 1961 but due to tech problems postponed) and what important, they do it at the far north: from Vorkuta to Novaya Zemlya or later in Sary Shagan in Kazakhstan(this test site is almost 500km long so they keep all tests inside it)
Yeah, it is possible that R-7 or R-12 rockets went of target and the warhead fall down within the Dyatlov Pass.
In 1965 after the first ever space walk the Voskhod 2 capsule went hundreds kilometers off course during descent and landed somewhere to the west from Solikamsk (about 300km from the Dyatlov Pass), it takes few hours to locate the two astronauts and because they was in dense forest only some food and warm clothes was dropped from air before night (it was in March so cold nights) the next day the rescue team descended from air and make a camp to stay another night, the helicopters cant land there, and only on another day they traveled on skies to some open space to be airlifted. The capsule was pick up many days later. - so yeah, many things falling from sky in the place where it shouldn't :)
And on February 1, 2003 during the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster, it exploded at about 65km over the ground, they recovered 38 percent of the shuttle so is not easy to find pieces of something that explode high in the sky. Not surprised that if some rocket exploded/fall down around Dyatlov Pass there is nothing found, it easily go under the snow and in summer get covered by vegetation. Nobody was searching for any debris at that time.
but back to the R-7 or R-12:
Option 1: Dummy warhead without explosives/radioactive load: It may fall on the ground and explode(not sure if there is some engine withing the warhead to adjust course during last stage of flight) but it will looks like more as airplane / jet crash so even if that will happened close to tent, they will not abandon the tent and run to the forest. In this case they will probably dress up and go to check the crash site if someone needs help.
If the explosion will cause some injuries to the members of the group the tent will be completely destroyed but as we know the tent was quite intact except the cuts.
Option 1: Active warhead: That will be big bang high in the sky or on the ground. But again, if that was far away, no reason to run from tent and if close to tent that make some serious/broke bones injuries the explosion/blast wave have to be very powerful so why not damaged tent and trees. There will be significant damage to the area with broken trees and tent will be completely blown out.
So I think that one rocket not make the story at all, it not gives any answers why they leave tent and never returned to it.
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But high altitude tests take a long time to fall and can travel far in high winds?
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But high altitude tests take a long time to fall and can travel far in high winds?
Yes, it could. or even could never fall down if is made very high. But it matter anything?
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If we were to assume that the injuries to the hikers were caused by a rocket/plane/? and this happened to them while standing outside the tent, then why were there no burns on the tent (as on George)? Why would there be broken bones caused by the blast, but yet the tent still stands and is not really messed up inside? Why would there by scrapes, scratches and cuts yet not a fragment in the bodies? How is it that all the flying debris would fly close enough to cause many of the afore mentioned injuries and yet none of the debris entered the bodies? So many questions.
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But high altitude tests take a long time to fall and can travel far in high winds?
Yes, it could. or even could never fall down if is made very high. But it matter anything?
It matters because it extends the range of the fallout which refutes your argument that SAMs were too far away?
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It matters because it extends the range of the fallout which refutes your argument that SAMs were too far away?
Yes, it could extend but not enough in this case. The closest place where was base with SAMs rockets was Sverdlovsk (today's Yekaterinburg) which is about 550km from Dyatlov Pass, how do you want extend the range of V-1000 or S-75 Dvina by 500km?? This rockets have max range of 55km.
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If we were to assume that the injuries to the hikers were caused by a rocket/plane/? and this happened to them while standing outside the tent, then why were there no burns on the tent (as on George)? Why would there be broken bones caused by the blast, but yet the tent still stands and is not really messed up inside? Why would there by scrapes, scratches and cuts yet not a fragment in the bodies? How is it that all the flying debris would fly close enough to cause many of the afore mentioned injuries and yet none of the debris entered the bodies? So many questions.
Yes, this is the problem with explosion. If there was some explosion it just could scared them but must be far away, otherwise the injuries/damages will be done to all environment around. Because the environment is not damaged it means all injuries happens by direct force to each person, not by one general force as explosion.
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-In late 50s and early 60s all rockets launches was made from bases, there was no mobile launchers on vehicles so we could ruled out the V-1000 or S-75 Dvina. As the territory of Soviet Union was well scanned by US spy aircraft we know locations of the rockets bases, not possible that they was some secret places.
Still underground complexes existed in both USSR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Yamantau ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosvinsky_Kamen) and USA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne_Mountain_Complex), and they were unknown and undetected by aerial reconnaissance and satellites. Secret underground bases existed in both countries, and it was normal that they maintained an adequate level of anti-air defense. IF such a base was located within 50km of Dyatlov Pass, then the range of the S-75 was enough to reach the Pass.
-the rockets that could reach Dyatlov Pass was R-7 or R-12.
I would add the R-5 rocket (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-5_Pobeda). It had (only) 1200km range, but it was launched from mobile systems, making it possible of reaching any conceivable point of the USSR. Also , the cosmodrome of Plesetsk was at around 1000km distant to the West of Dyatlov Pass, and therefore a theoretical R-5 located there could have reached this point.
In 1965 after the first ever space walk the Voskhod 2 capsule went hundreds kilometers off course during descent and landed somewhere to the west from Solikamsk (about 300km from the Dyatlov Pass), it takes few hours to locate the two astronauts and because they was in dense forest only some food and warm clothes was dropped from air before night (it was in March so cold nights) the next day the rescue team descended from air and make a camp to stay another night, the helicopters cant land there, and only on another day they traveled on skies to some open space to be airlifted. The capsule was pick up many days later. - so yeah, many things falling from sky in the place where it shouldn't :)
I think the same , and my best hunch for Dyatlov Pass Incident is that it was an unfortunate accident of some sort.
but back to the R-7 or R-12:
Option 1: Dummy warhead without explosives/radioactive load: It may fall on the ground and explode(not sure if there is some engine withing the warhead to adjust course during last stage of flight) but it will looks like more as airplane / jet crash so even if that will happened close to tent, they will not abandon the tent and run to the forest. In this case they will probably dress up and go to check the crash site if someone needs help.
If the explosion will cause some injuries to the members of the group the tent will be completely destroyed but as we know the tent was quite intact except the cuts.
Option 1: Active warhead: That will be big bang high in the sky or on the ground. But again, if that was far away, no reason to run from tent and if close to tent that make some serious/broke bones injuries the explosion/blast wave have to be very powerful so why not damaged tent and trees. There will be significant damage to the area with broken trees and tent will be completely blown out.
So I think that one rocket not make the story at all, it not gives any answers why they leave tent and never returned to it.
If there was some re-entry event accident, I would expect the falling objects (rocket parts ?) to be falling from the sky and be visible by one or two from the Dyatlov group under the form of "falling stars" - meteors. They would have maybe 20-30 seconds to alert the others and run away from the perceived future impact point. However, what happens is probably an air-burst of the existent (chemical ?) warhead, causing shock (blast) damage followed by chemical fall-out. Several of the group are badly hurt (the man known under the fake name "Zolotaryov", Lyubidina, Thibeaux-Brignolle), others less so. A good account of an airburst damage is given in the "Meteor" area (here: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=417.msg9025#msg9025).
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If we were to assume that the injuries to the hikers were caused by a rocket/plane/? and this happened to them while standing outside the tent, then why were there no burns on the tent (as on George)?
IF we examine the possibility of an airburst of a rocket warhead, the burns are unlikely to appear, because the temperature of the explosion did not reach the base (ground).
Why would there be broken bones caused by the blast, but yet the tent still stands and is not really messed up inside?
Because the pattern of an explosion is NOT spherical (i.e. not having a symmetrical shape of damage), but varies according to the actual load, chemical formula, actual weight and shape of the charge.
Why would there by scrapes, scratches and cuts yet not a fragment in the bodies?
MAYBE those scrapes were caused later , while trying to dig the den with their bare hadns, and/or to harvest fire wood.
How is it that all the flying debris would fly close enough to cause many of the afore mentioned injuries and yet none of the debris entered the bodies? So many questions.
The blast wave does the killing. The flying fragments can (and do) increase the damage already done.
There is some indication that the scene of the event was known/ discovered somewhat earlier then Fev 26th/27th (lacking photo cameras; present military grade leg protection that Yuri Yudin did not recognize as belonging to anyone; lacking photo films, lacking notebook(s), etc). Therefore some pieces of evidence may have been moved/extracted to produce a complete cover-up and to exhonerate those responsible from the immediate reprimand.
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Still underground complexes existed in both USSR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Yamantau ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosvinsky_Kamen) and USA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne_Mountain_Complex), and they were unknown and undetected by aerial reconnaissance and satellites. Secret underground bases existed in both countries, and it was normal that they maintained an adequate level of anti-air defense. IF such a base was located within 50km of Dyatlov Pass, then the range of the S-75 was enough to reach the Pass.
Yes, there is lots of underground complexes but they was all detected during construction work. We do not know what is underground but we know that they exist. There was no complex like that in central Russia in 50s/60s. All rocket systems was just under development, was way too early to put it all underground. SAMs systems just started to be created in the second half of 50s.
I would add the R-5 rocket (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-5_Pobeda). It had (only) 1200km range, but it was launched from mobile systems, making it possible of reaching any conceivable point of the USSR. Also , the cosmodrome of Plesetsk was at around 1000km distant to the West of Dyatlov Pass, and therefore a theoretical R-5 located there could have reached this point.
It is the same type of rocket as R-7 and R-12, so Dyatlov Pass will be reached just by the warhead. So generally we talk about ballistic rockets, nothing else could get there.
The 8U25 mobile systems launchers was still very complicated to set up, including the final stage of fueling the rocket with LOX that has boiling temp of −182.96°C; so keeping it cold wasn't easy. For many operational reasons they keep this rockets in bases, never traveled with them around the country. The advantage of mobile systems launchers is that it could be keep safe in bunkers and not be destroyed during air/rocket strike.
If there was some re-entry event accident, I would expect the falling objects (rocket parts ?) to be falling from the sky and be visible by one or two from the Dyatlov group under the form of "falling stars" - meteors. They would have maybe 20-30 seconds to alert the others and run away from the perceived future impact point. However, what happens is probably an air-burst of the existent (chemical ?) warhead, causing shock (blast) damage followed by chemical fall-out. Several of the group are badly hurt (the man known under the fake name "Zolotaryov", Lyubidina, Thibeaux-Brignolle), others less so. A good account of an airburst damage is given in the "Meteor" area (here: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=417.msg9025#msg9025).
Any explosion/airburst that will cause injuries to people will damage the tent as well - how could you explain that it works with huge force only on some people?
And why they will abandon the tent? The explosion+blast wave will last very short, for what reason to go 45mins to forest?
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There was no complex like that in central Russia in 50s/60s. All rocket systems was just under development, was way too early to put it all underground. SAMs systems just started to be created in the second half of 50s.
We don't know what the Soviets had in the 50s or 60s underground. Much of it is still secret and will remain like that for some good time.
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Any explosion/airburst that will cause injuries to people will damage the tent as well - how could you explain that it works with huge force only on some people? [/quote]
Those people were caught by the blast wave's pattern outside the tent; the center of the tent was knocked down by the blast.
And why they will abandon the tent? The explosion+blast wave will last very short, for what reason to go 45mins to forest?
Perceived or real chemical/nuclear fall out following the airburst, contaminating the area underneath the airburst (which happened to be , unfortunately, the area of their tent...).
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We don't know what the Soviets had in the 50s or 60s underground. Much of it is still secret and will remain like that for some good time.
Spies, U-2, secret service... this all works very well between US and Soviet Russia. Maybe info about what is there will be not available but building any underground complex require huge amount of work, twice much as normal complex. So the fact that something is under construction will be well know. And what will be the reason to make base like that in that place in 50s? No rockets that could go beyond Russian borders from that place, no need to install any anti-aircraft systems because nothing to protect around except wolves and bears.
Those people were caught by the blast wave's pattern outside the tent; the center of the tent was knocked down by the blast.
How strong should be a blast wave to break your ribs? I do not have idea... but for sure the tent will be completely destroyed.
Perceived or real chemical/nuclear fall out following the airburst, contaminating the area underneath the airburst (which happened to be , unfortunately, the area of their tent...).
They do not have anything to measure chemical/nuclear fall out so will be not aware of any danger like that. The real danger that they know was COLD. So something that force them out from tent and to forest must be much more dangerous and clearly visible.
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Spies, U-2, secret service... this all works very well between US and Soviet Russia. Maybe info about what is there will be not available but building any underground complex require huge amount of work, twice much as normal complex. So the fact that something is under construction will be well know. And what will be the reason to make base like that in that place in 50s? No rockets that could go beyond Russian borders from that place, no need to install any anti-aircraft systems because nothing to protect around except wolves and bears.
It protectes wolves and bears of the Northern Urals in the same way that the Cheyenne Mountains Complex protects local grizzly bears and wolves.
How strong should be a blast wave to break your ribs? I do not have idea... but for sure the tent will be completely destroyed.
No - it would depend on the blast waves position relative to the tent and to the skiers. If directly above, the tent would be knocked out in the middle. Again, explosions can have different forms and different strengths in different points (non-linear). See here: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34udye an explosion that is significantly different from the "typical" spherical outline.
They do not have anything to measure chemical/nuclear fall out so will be not aware of any danger like that. The real danger that they know was COLD. So something that force them out from tent and to forest must be much more dangerous and clearly visible.
They don't need to measure chemical or nuclear fall out. They are all graduates or students of the Ural Polytechnical Institute. Two of them are working in nuclear facilities. They know what ICBMs are. They know what they carry. They know what the risk is in staying underneath the explosion's source. The cold is a POSSIBLE way of death (IF they don't get the fire started, if the fire isn't stropng enough, if they can't build a shelter, etc), whereas ingesting chemical/nuclear fallout is a CERTAIN way of death.
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It protectes wolves and bears of the Northern Urals in the same way that the Cheyenne Mountains Complex protects local grizzly bears and wolves.
Cheyenne Mountains Complex is commando center for North America Aerospace, Peterson Air Force Base and are two big cities around too, so a bit more to protect than local grizzly bears. Close to Yekaterinburg was SAMs base too. And it wasn't secret that Cheyenne Mountains Complex is constructed, all know about it. Not all knows what is inside.
No - it would depend on the blast waves position relative to the tent and to the skiers. If directly above, the tent would be knocked out in the middle.
Even if the skiers will leave tent immediately after seeing the explosion the blast waves will catch them very close to the tent. Simply, it is not possible receive injuries like that from a blast waves close to the tent without significant damage to it.
They don't need to measure chemical or nuclear fall out. They are all graduates or students of the Ural Polytechnical Institute. Two of them are working in nuclear facilities. They know what ICBMs are. They know what they carry. They know what the risk is in staying underneath the explosion's source. The cold is a possible way of death (IF they don't get the fire started, if the fire isn't stropng enough, if they can't build a shelter, etc), whereas ingesting chemical/nuclear fallout is a CERTAIN way of death.
But they was experienced hikers too and clearly know that being without proper clothes during night in winter will mean CERTAIN dead for them. This was for sure. Any chemical/nuclear danger will be just possibility, nothing confirmed so for sure they will protect themselves from cold because it was real danger at that time.
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Cheyenne Mountains Complex is commando center for North America Aerospace, Peterson Air Force Base and are two big cities around too, so a bit more to protect than local grizzly bears. Close to Yekaterinburg was SAMs base too. And it wasn't secret that Cheyenne Mountains Complex is constructed, all know about it. Not all knows what is inside.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_Rock_Mountain_Complex
What major cities are next to this one ? What species of bears are protected from there ?
Even if the skiers will leave tent immediately after seeing the explosion the blast waves will catch them very close to the tent. Simply, it is not possible receive injuries like that from a blast waves close to the tent without significant damage to it.
See the above video link. Not all explosions are the same.
But they was experienced hikers too and clearly know that being without proper clothes during night in winter will mean CERTAIN dead for them. This was for sure. Any chemical/nuclear danger will be just possibility, nothing confirmed so for sure they will protect themselves from cold because it was real danger at that time.
That is what you write from behind a computer. IF you were underneath an ICBM explosion, you would have behaved differently.
They had battled the COLD in the past , with great success , but they knew they couldn't battle CHEMICAL or NUCLEAR fall out. That IF chemical or nuclear fallout was in the air.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_Rock_Mountain_Complex
What major cities are next to this one ? What species of bears are protected from there ?
Is this a joke? 100km from this place is Washington(capital of U.S.), this complex is the main emergency operation center for U.S Army.
See the above video link. Not all explosions are the same.
I do not see the video excuseme
That is what you write from behind a computer. IF you were underneath an ICBM explosion, you would have behaved differently.
They had battled the COLD in the past , with great success , but they knew they couldn't battle CHEMICAL or NUCLEAR fall out. That IF chemical or nuclear fallout was in the air.
They battled the cold in the past and they know what they need to win with it. CHEMICAL or NUCLEAR was only possibility, so the first will be protect against cold. I write it from the perspective of different emergency situations in mountains, first you protect against real danger, after you care about other possibilities.
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Is this a joke? 100km from this place is Washington(capital of U.S.), this complex is the main emergency operation center for U.S Army.
Is 100km "nearby" to you ?
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They battled the cold in the past and they know what they need to win with it. CHEMICAL or NUCLEAR was only possibility, so the first will be protect against cold. I write it from the perspective of different emergency situations in mountains, first you protect against real danger, after you care about other possibilities.
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If only that was a possibility.
But IF they had the bad luck of being underneath an accidental re-entry event and/or military explosion, THEN that wasn't a possibility anymore, and immediate death was at hand. Immediate death from chemical/nuclear fallout, or possible/probable death from the cold. What would you choose ?
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Is this a joke? 100km from this place is Washington(capital of U.S.), this complex is the main emergency operation center for U.S Army.
Is 100km "nearby" to you ?
Sure, it is nearby. Probably it was the closes possible place to build huge complex underground/inside mountainous.
(For people from Russia 100km is very very close grin1 )
If only that was a possibility.
But IF they had the bad luck of being underneath an accidental re-entry event and/or military explosion, THEN that wasn't a possibility anymore, and immediate death was at hand. Immediate death from chemical/nuclear fallout, or possible/probable death from the cold. What would you choose ?
The cold was real, dead from freezing was inevitable not only possible/probable, and they new about it. The chemical/nuclear fallout was only possibility, something that they never experience, so the danger/dead from it will be much less likely for them than from cold.
I will choose take warm clothes, other equipment and leave the tent.
The real could be only explosion and shack wave after, they will never worry about chemical/nuclear fallout.
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(For people from Russia 100km is very very close grin1 )
Then you will be happy to know that this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosvinsky_Kamen is at 200km distant from Dyatlov Pass...
The real could be only explosion and shack wave after, they will never worry about chemical/nuclear fallout.
There is no "after". The chemical gas cloud spreads in seconds, the nuclear contamination begins instantly. They have to exit that area instantly or die.
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(For people from Russia 100km is very very close grin1 )
You will be happy to know that this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosvinsky_Kamen is at 200km distant from Dyatlov Pass...
It was build in 90s, for same reason as the American Cheyenne Mountain Complex or other commando center. What do you want proof by infos like that? And again, the fact that it is under-construction was well know.
There is no "after". The chemical gas cloud spreads in seconds, the nuclear contamination begins instantly. They have to exit that area instantly or die.
I mean that shock wave is coming after seeing the blast. After received shock wave nobody will worry about chemical/nuclear fallout, they will simply pick up stuff from the tent.
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It was build in 90s, for same reason as the American Cheyenne Mountain Complex or other commando center. What do you want proof by infos like that? And again, the fact that it is under-construction was well know.
It was written about it in the 90s. There is a big difference between being built and being written about it.
Point in hand: what objective do you see nearby ?
Point in hand: underground nuclear bunkers/command centers are not (necessarily) built near large cities.
I mean that shock wave is coming after seeing the blast. After received shock wave nobody will worry about chemical/nuclear fallout, they will simply pick up stuff from the tent.
If quick death is what they want, they should stay in the tent. If they want to live just a bit longer - run !
Otherwise, they will look like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_I#/media/File:Nach_Gasangriff_1917.jpg
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It was written about it in the 90s. There is a big difference between being built and being written about it.
Point in hand: what objective do you see nearby ?
Point in hand: underground nuclear bunkers/command centers are not (necessarily) built near large cities.
They write about it in 90s because nothing happens there before, as well Russia confirmed that they finished the development in 1997.
But what bunkers/command centers have in connection to the rockets theory? There is not SAMs systems at all, they are build deep underground so are protected by ground.
If quick death is what they want, they should stay in the tent. If they want to live just a bit longer - run !
Otherwise, they will look like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_I#/media/File:Nach_Gasangriff_1917.jpg
But they can't see any chemical/radioactive danger so simply will be not afraid of it. Sure, we could start making theories what they imagined but that will lead us into very interesting places lol4
As well, it is very very unlikely that there was any missile with live warhead(chemical/radioactive), tests like that always were done in very controlled palaces.
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They write about it in 90s because nothing happens there before, as well Russia confirmed that they finished the development in 1997.
That is what was printed in the press. I strongly doubt such complexes were started in the 90s.
But what bunkers/command centers have in connection to the rockets theory? There is not SAMs systems at all, they are build deep underground so are protected by ground.
Tipically there are troops nearby (or above), with adequate anti-air protection. See for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Yamantau "During the Soviet era two military garrisons, Beloretsk-15 and Beloretsk-16, and possibly a third, Alkino-2, were built on the site. These garrisons were unified into the closed town of Mezhgorye (Russian: Межгорье) in 1995, and the garrisons are said to house 30,000 workers each, served by large rail lines"
But they can't see any chemical/radioactive danger so simply will be not afraid of it. Sure, we could start making theories what they imagined but that will lead us into very interesting places lol4
If they see nuclear mushroom above head, the only solution is - run !
If they see gas cloud coming down on them, only solution is - run !
As well, it is very very unlikely that there was any missile with live warhead(chemical/radioactive), tests like that always were done in very controlled palaces.
You know what they say - "everything is ok until it isn't".
This entire strangeness about DPI is explainable, IMHO, by a terrible accident - and that accident may be related to an unfortunate experiment in weapons.
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Tipically there are troops nearby (or above), with adequate anti-air protection. See for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Yamantau "During the Soviet era two military garrisons, Beloretsk-15 and Beloretsk-16, and possibly a third, Alkino-2, were built on the site. These garrisons were unified into the closed town of Mezhgorye (Russian: Межгорье) in 1995, and the garrisons are said to house 30,000 workers each, served by large rail lines"
This is why US will know about it if there will be something earlier. All installations like that are well visible, you can't build it in secret.
Even if Kosvinsky Kamen exist in late 50s, the SAMs missiles will never reach Dyatlov Pass
If they see nuclear mushroom above head, the only solution is - run !
Sorry, too late to run grin1
If they see gas cloud coming down on them, only solution is - run !
You can't see gas cloud coming down, specially at night. As well any gas cloud will dispersed within 5mins in place like that: open space with wind.
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It matters because it extends the range of the fallout which refutes your argument that SAMs were too far away?
Yes, it could extend but not enough in this case. The closest place where was base with SAMs rockets was Sverdlovsk (today's Yekaterinburg) which is about 550km from Dyatlov Pass, how do you want extend the range of V-1000 or S-75 Dvina by 500km?? This rockets have max range of 55km.
Yes so with a glide path of 1:10 that would fit. That's my point.
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This is why US will know about it if there will be something earlier. All installations like that are well visible, you can't build it in secret.
In the 50s there weren't any spy satellites in the sky, therefore the construction would have been unknown.
Even if Kosvinsky Kamen exist in late 50s, the SAMs missiles will never reach Dyatlov Pass
Yes, but what if there is/was another underground complex more closer to Dyatlov Pass, that could potentially target the area.
Sorry, too late to run grin1
Running from an airburst would still be viable, provided that some of them were still alive afterwards.
You can't see gas cloud coming down, specially at night. As well any gas cloud will dispersed within 5mins in place like that: open space with wind.
It would depend on the type of gas. For instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_I#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-F0313-0208-007,_Gaskrieg_(Luftbild).jpg
This is visible. They would NOT have 5 minutes to stick around, unless they wanted to be found dead in the tent, gassed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_I#/media/File:WWI_-_Monte_San_Michele_-_29th_June_1916_Italian_casualties_after_a_gas_attack.jpg
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In the 50s there weren't any spy satellites in the sky, therefore the construction would have been unknown.
Even if Kosvinsky Kamen exist in late 50s, the SAMs missiles will never reach Dyatlov Pass
Yes, but what if there is/was another underground complex more closer to Dyatlov Pass, that could potentially target the area.
No satellites but U.S. had U-2 spy aircraft that was flying over Soviet Union. It finished in 1960 when Soviet Union finally developed a SAMs rocket S-75 that was able to reach the aircraft at high altitude. And each countries had spies that know more or less what is going on and building any underground complex was big job, easy to spot. So for sure there was nothing around.
Running from an airburst would still be viable, provided that some of them were still alive afterwards.
But the airburst will catch them withing seconds/minutes so all will be close to tent. So why not return for some gear that will save your life?
It would depend on the type of gas. For instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_I#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-F0313-0208-007,_Gaskrieg_(Luftbild).jpg
This is visible. They would NOT have 5 minutes to stick around, unless they wanted to be found dead in the tent, gassed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_I#/media/File:WWI_-_Monte_San_Michele_-_29th_June_1916_Italian_casualties_after_a_gas_attack.jpg
It looks like smoke, you can't say it is gas or smoke after explosion, specially at night.
And again, as it is somehow possible that some rocket go off course and fall down there, it is generally almost not possible that it was fitted with some live warhead. Tests with live warheads are very rear.
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No satellites but U.S. had U-2 spy aircraft that was flying over Soviet Union. It finished in 1960 when Soviet Union finally developed a SAMs rocket S-75 that was able to reach the aircraft at high altitude. And each countries had spies that know more or less what is going on and building any underground complex was big job, easy to spot. So for sure there was nothing around.
There is nothing "sure" about it. During WW2, the Allies had massive aerial reconnaissance and spy rings above and inside occupied Europe, but underground factories and tunnels were routinely built, most of them remaining hidden and unknown for the Allies.
But the airburst will catch them withing seconds/minutes so all will be close to tent. So why not return for some gear that will save your life?
Because exposure underneath the airburst could provoke death in seconds. Therefore they would do whatever possible to move away from the epicentre (or epicentre's projection onto the earth).
It looks like smoke, you can't say it is gas or smoke after explosion, specially at night.
Smoke isn't falling down on the ground , but dissipates onto the air. Chemical gas is heavier then air and falls down.
And again, as it is somehow possible that some rocket go off course and fall down there, it is generally almost not possible that it was fitted with some live warhead. Tests with live warheads are very rear.
The Dyatlov Pass Incident is very rare as well. Perhaps they were the most unlucky skiers ever ?
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There is nothing "sure" about it. During WW2, the Allies had massive aerial reconnaissance and spy rings above and inside occupied Europe, but underground factories and tunnels were routinely built, most of them remaining hidden and unknown for the Allies.
Any example?
The most secret and biggest underground project of Nazi Germans "Project Riese" was known to Allies.. I mean, they know that something is under-construction there, the fact that we not know till today what exactly should be there is other story.
Because exposure underneath the airburst could provoke death in seconds. Therefore they would do whatever possible to move away from the epicentre (or epicentre's projection onto the earth).
So explain me what is the reason of running away after being hit by airburst? They will be hit by it very close to the tent, why will they keep going as far as to the forest. After explosion withing seconds will hit them with airburst, after all will be quiet. They could return to the tent.
Smoke isn't falling down on the ground , but dissipates onto the air. Chemical gas is heavier then air and falls down.
It was open space and windy, anything will dissipates onto the air, including chemical gas.
The Dyatlov Pass Incident is very rare as well. Perhaps they were the most unlucky skiers ever ?
well... same unlucky skiers as any other that die in mountains
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Any example?
The most secret and biggest underground project of Nazi Germans "Project Riese" was known to Allies.. I mean, they know that something is under-construction there, the fact that we not know till today what exactly should be there is other story.
The Kobanya cellar system wasn't discovered by the occupying Russians FWIR. Another might be Weingut. There were many other underground factories that remained hidden (and many that are still hidden today).
So explain me what is the reason of running away after being hit by airburst? They will be hit by it very close to the tent, why will they keep going as far as to the forest. After explosion withing seconds will hit them with airburst, after all will be quiet. They could return to the tent.
Sequence of bomb damage is: airburst, heat wave, fallout. Airburst travels at speed of sound, heat wave somewhat slower, fallout depends on the load. In any case, the fallout would begin in maybe 30 seconds - 1 minute after the airburst (considering an airburst at 1km above ground).
It was open space and windy, anything will dissipates onto the air, including chemical gas.
If only that was true. But tens of thousands of troops died or were severely injured by chemical gas in the First World War, always in windy conditions and many times in open space (not trenches).
well... same unlucky skiers as any other that die in mountains
Mmm, not many die from broken ribs penetrating their hearts...
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It matters because it extends the range of the fallout which refutes your argument that SAMs were too far away?
Yes, it could extend but not enough in this case. The closest place where was base with SAMs rockets was Sverdlovsk (today's Yekaterinburg) which is about 550km from Dyatlov Pass, how do you want extend the range of V-1000 or S-75 Dvina by 500km?? This rockets have max range of 55km.
BTW, the V1000 had a range of 250km, altitude of 25km.
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yes, Nigel, you are right. But it still not make it possible that it reach the pass.
The Kobanya cellar system wasn't discovered by the occupying Russians FWIR. Another might be Weingut. There were many other underground factories that remained hidden (and many that are still hidden today).
Kobanya cellar was constructed in XII century, nobody was building it during the war time, just place factory inside. There was lots of military factories everywhere during the war time.
Building any underground facility for SAMs at the late 50s, even reconstructing existing one will require enormous amount of work that will be noticed.
Sequence of bomb damage is: airburst, heat wave, fallout. Airburst travels at speed of sound, heat wave somewhat slower, fallout depends on the load. In any case, the fallout would begin in maybe 30 seconds - 1 minute after the airburst (considering an airburst at 1km above ground).
So how far they could run from tent during 1 minute(including exiting the tent)?
Alecsandros, If you want make any theory reliable you must accept existing facts, if you start creating many different theories to support your theory it will become very very unlikely to happens.
The fact is that Dyatlov Pass could be reached in that times only by ballistic missile, no need to imagine some secret underground bases in Ural Mountains.
Another fact is that explosion of live warhead will very unlikely force them to run as far as to the forest (to get to the forest they need minimum 30mins)
So there is definitely something missing in the rocket theory.
I have some theory that this tragedy was started by incident with missile and military involvement but just need a bit of time to make full research about it wink1
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Kobanya cellar was constructed in XII century, nobody was building it during the war time, just place factory inside. There was lots of military factories everywhere during the war time.
Agreed - and many of them were not known.
Building any underground facility for SAMs at the late 50s, even reconstructing existing one will require enormous amount of work that will be noticed.
Nobody would have noticed anything in the Northern Urals, hundreds of kilometres from cities.
Besides, underground nuclear command centers started being built in the USSR in 1951 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagansky_Protected_Command_Point), while the first U-2 spy plane overflew a minor part of Russia in June 1956 for the first time (https://theaviationist.com/2014/02/27/the-story-of-the-first-u-2-spyplane-missions-over-soviet-union/).
So how far they could run from tent during 1 minute(including exiting the tent)?
Maybe 150-200 meters away if all ran in terror. Maybe 50-100meters away if they had to carry "Zolotaryov", Lyubidina and Thibeaux-Brignolles. Not enough to escape being contaminated, but it sure is better then being in ground zero.
I strongly suggest you reading the "meteor" theory here: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=417.msg9025#msg9025 . It details the possible airburst, and the shockwave damage.
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Another fact is that explosion of live warhead will very unlikely force them to run as far as to the forest (to get to the forest they need minimum 30mins)
So there is definitely something missing in the rocket theory.
That is how chemical weapons work: delivery, explosion, emanation of chemical compound (usually gas). The gas is pushed by the wind , emanating from the initial point. As far as gas was still being around, nobody could stay nearby. After the gas cleared, they could attempt a comeback (which apparently happened).
Simply writing about being gased is another thing from BEING gassed. You can't comprehend the terror of a gas attack.
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Nobody would have noticed anything in the Northern Urals, hundreds of kilometres from cities.
Besides, underground nuclear command centers started being built in the USSR in 1951 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagansky_Protected_Command_Point), while the first U-2 spy plane overflew a minor part of Russia in June 1956 for the first time (https://theaviationist.com/2014/02/27/the-story-of-the-first-u-2-spyplane-missions-over-soviet-union/).
Constructions sites like that usually are not spotted by seeing it directly. We get know about it because all of the activity needed to build it. Work force(few thousand people to build it - minimum), heavy machinery, supply of materials, trains, railways etc.. all of this indicate that something is going on. Same as army movements was always spotted.
Maybe 150-200 meters away if all ran in terror. Maybe 50-100meters away if they had to carry "Zolotaryov", Lyubidina and Thibeaux-Brignolles. Not enough to escape being contaminated, but it sure is better then being in ground zero.
So there are 200m from tent, already hit by explosion. Why to continue to run to the forest that is still 1km from you? They not know nothing about contamination. They could suspect it but it not pose real danger to them in that moment. Real is cold. I will get back to the for the essential equipment to survive.
That is how chemical weapons work: delivery, explosion, emanation of chemical compound (usually gas). The gas is pushed by the wind , emanating from the initial point. As far as gas was still being around, nobody could stay nearby. After the gas cleared, they could attempt a comeback (which apparently happened).
It was windy day/night, open space, the gas will disperse withing minutes.
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I have some theory that this tragedy was started by incident with missile and military involvement but just need a bit of time to make full research about it wink1
Looking forward to reading it ! thumb1
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Same as army movements was always spotted.
Depends where. In Northern Urals there was little chance of anybody noticing them.
So there are 200m from tent, already hit by explosion. Why to continue to run to the forest that is still 1km from you? They not know nothing about contamination. They could suspect it but it not pose real danger to them in that moment. Real is cold. I will get back to the for the essential equipment to survive.
They run 200m for fear of gas/nuke. They run because they know what's coming. Both gas and nuke are visible.
It was windy day/night, open space, the gas will disperse withing minutes.
Gas needs wind to work.
Many tens of thousands of troops were gassed in windy days in open spaces.
Nobody knows how much the gas will last - maybe the wind will change direction and it will all go away. Or maybe the wind will blow it towards them, who knows. What is known is that the area of the tent is gassed and gas=immediate death, while cold=some chance of survival (slim but existing).
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Alecsandros, we talk again and again about the same so it not make any sense to continue.
I believe that it is possible that some missile exploded around that place.
But it is not enough to force them to run away as far as to the forest without proper equipment.
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Alecsandros, we talk again and again about the same so it not make any sense to continue.
I believe that it is possible that some missile exploded around that place.
But it is not enough to force them to run away as far as to the forest without proper equipment.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
For me, this is one good possibility of explaining DPI: chemical weapon release, followed by panic, terror and abandonment of the tent for awhile.
Regards,