Theories Discussion > Altercation on the pass

The refutation of only one thing that destroys the theory of a quarrel!

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Jean Daniel Reuss:

--- Quote from: 20vvk07 on January 14, 2021, 05:17:30 AM ---....................................
1. No one in the group belittled anyone, we just looked at it from a different angle.
2. The relationship in the group was good.
3. But... Kolevatov's birthday in the fall, and then winter! How so?
Again, to hell with that theory for now.
There is such a thing as"Second birthday","Second time born". What does it mean?
This is the day when a person was on the verge of life and death, and miraculously survived.
A. Kolevatov - a child of war, maybe what happened in childhood that could kill him, and when he survived-he was "born a second time".
That's all, share your opinion in the comments! thanky1

--- End quote ---

It is rather Semyon Alekseevich Zolotaryov (Born on 2 Feb 1921), who can be qualified as a child of war since he was integrated in the Soviet army from October 1941 to May 1946. And all those who have an idea, even fuzzy, of what could be the Eastern Front are very impressed !

Aleksander Sergeevich Kolevatov  (Born on 16 Nov 1934) was an arguably bright student of nuclear physics, he was a 4th year student as a Physics Major at the UPI University.

In my opinion, the episode of the sharing of the tangerine as well as the manner in which Kolevatov's birthday or anniversary is related are irrelevant to the resolution of the DPI problem.

I think that Eduard Tumanov himself, who since the post of April 08, 2019 - ( - has intervened several times in Russian TV shows now agrees with the expression : "the hikers took part in a fight, againt outsiders."

 Consequently, the reasons for the transformation of Dubinina's mood is an important purely psychological element which is closely connected with the arrival of the (probably) trinome of attackers on the slope of the Kholat, Syakhl on the evening of 1 February 1959.
See :

--- Quote from: mk on January 16, 2021, 07:25:23 AM --- Reply #2
Yes, I've never put stock in the theories that the hikers fought amongst themselves.  There may have been arguments, disagreements, tiffs, or even quarrels, but only children allow disagreements to turn into fistfights.  Their very survival depended on working together, and they knew this well. 

The members of the hike had to apply to join the hike, and then had to be accepted.  The team must contain people who work well together and who could follow the leader's instructions.  Dyatlov had a hand in choosing the members; having been on hikes with them before, he would have a good sense for the interpersonal dynamics at play. 

This, I believe, is one reason Lyuda writes that they didn't really want Zolotaryov to join the group: no one knew him.  Everyone else knew each other; they knew what the group dynamics would be; they had a good idea of how the interactions would play out.  A new person in the mix could make it awkward.  Zolotaryov, however, seems to have been agreeable enough not to make problems for anyone.

Whatever caused the tragedy, it wasn't a fight amongst themselves.

--- End quote ---

Congratulations mk, this is very well said and explained in few words.

--- Quote from: 20vvk07 on January 14, 2021, 05:17:30 AM ---Hello, dear friends! I use Google Translate, so there may be some stupid mistakes.

--- End quote ---

On the internet you can find several free machine translation programs that seem fairly adequate for the translation and the theme.

Personally I use  DeepL for various European languages: French, English, Russian, German, Polish, Romanian, Czech...

But I do not understand the little round yellow hieroglyphs that sometimes appear in some posts.

grin1 kewl1 nea1 wink1 tongue2 quiet1 shock1 whist1 lol1 lol2 clap1 explode1 cry2 dance1 dunno1 lalala1 loco1 bat1 nose1 thanky1 okey1 whacky1 thumb1 neg1 vroom1 bang1  bow7 twitch7 excuseme bigjoke lol4

--- Code: ---grin1 kewl1 nea1 wink1 tongue2 quiet1 shock1 whist1 lol1 lol2 clap1 explode1 cry2 dance1 dunno1 lalala1 loco1 bat1 nose1 thanky1 okey1 whacky1 thumb1 neg1 vroom1 bang1  bow7 twitch7 excuseme bigjoke lol4
--- End code ---

I think it's perfectly natural for friends to get a bit sick of each other after a few days. I think Ludye just needed some space and they let her have it. She was said to be a bit moody so that could be why but there is nothing sinister about this.

Jean Daniel Reuss:

--- Quote from: ElizabethHarris on January 07, 2022, 10:18:16 AM ---                                 Reply #6

I think it's perfectly natural for friends to get a bit sick of each other after a few days. I think Ludye just needed some space and they let her have it. She was said to be a bit moody so that could be why but there is nothing sinister about this.

--- End quote ---

This argument could be valid after 3 months, (for example in a crew of 9 people locked in a small boat during a long cruise at sea), but seems to me unrealistic in the present case, that is to say after only 3 days of a trip which was not monotonous.


• January 23 : We're on the road again!.........And here we are on the train. We sang all the songs that we know, learned new ones,.......
• January 24 : .......We arrived in Serov (town). We traveled with Blinov group.....And then Yuri Krivo started a song, the cops grabbed him and took him away....... In the interval between 1st and 2nd shifts in school we organized meeting with pupils. The room crammed with so many curious children....
• January 25 : .......................When we arrived at ? turn the bus went to a village and had to return for us in an hour.
We continue on foot. It was so nice to walk along the road in such good weather. ...
• January 26 : We slept in so-called hotel.............We did not boil water in the morning, wood was damp.......We negotiated to go to Settlement 41 by a truck.
.......In Settlement 41 we were greeted warmly, they gave us a separate room in the hostel. We talked a lot with the local workers....

Dubinina was demanding of strict observance of moral prescriptions for others as well as for herself

See for instance sabine :
.......she seems to have been well organized and honest to a fault. Since she was the treasurer of the expedition this would've served her well. And according to her own assessment she couldn't hold her tongue and didn't hesitate to speak her mind......."

Under normal conditions, even if she had felt a "bad mood", she would have had the mental strength to control herself and not let it show.

Like Yuri Yudin, who, although not very severely affected by his condition since he was able to return on his own apparently without difficulty, preferred not to go on the hike on 28 January, so as not to risk slowing down the group.

And yet dubinina had written :

• January 25...The mood sank. In general, I am very, very sad.
• January 26... Mood is bad and probably will be for two more days. Evil as hell.

This is a very important clue, psychological in nature, which cannot be eluded, and which is discussed :

An here :

( Indeed, according to the TOKEB theory, it is in Vizhay that the clash took place which provoked the decision of the merciless and sadistic massacre of the 9 hikers).

nothing here

Jean Daniel Reuss:

--- Quote from: Charles on February 17, 2022, 09:08:15 AM ---                    Reply #8
The argument was valid even before the hike started, since Zina Kolmogorova letter to Lidiya Grigoryeva of January 22, 1959 :

"The group is ok, I don't know how will it be the moment we go. Will we quarrel. After all, Kolevatov is with us."

--- End quote ---

You are right to consider carefully the psychological aspect of the documents that we have.

Thanks to Teddy who gives us quick access to the most important archives.

   °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°We can reasonably imagine that the 9 hikers were energetic and courageous people but with a rather bad temper.
Especially Dyatlov who was very authoritarian and often unpleasant and awkward in human relations.

There were probably quarrels, sharp verbal oppositions...etc. But that is not unusual in this kind of expedition. And I think that you are going down the wrong path of research when you attribute too much importance to the word quarrel, the exact meaning of which is unclear.

Dyatlov and Zolotaryov seem to disagree, Kolevatov is perhaps slightly worried.

Zolotaryov, Doroshenko, Dyatlov seem to feel some resentment, or are they just tired?

The route planned for this winter hike with poor equipment was not very difficult, but it still required constant attention. An unforeseen complication (broken ski, lost useful accessory, frozen foot....etc) could lead to failure, i.e. at least a pitiful premature return.

In the event of a real danger arising unexpectedly, in this somewhat impressive wilderness atmosphere, internal dissension immediately takes a back seat.

Each member of the group feels that in order to win or survive it is better to postpone the arguments for the time being, so that they can regroup and fight together most effectively.

This group behaviour is usually seen on all ships isolated on the open sea. The crew, sometimes disunited in good weather, comes together and cooperates without problems when the storm arrives.

Indeed the sentence :
After all, Kolevatov is with enigmatic.

Nothing in what we know of the tragic aftermath suggests a clue to suspect Kolevatov of being a particular cause of conflict.

I even wonder whether Kolgomorova might have made a mistake and falsely written Kolevatov instead of Zolotaryov ! ?

Indeed I think that Zolotaryov could have played an informant role to the CPSU with the mission to describe and report the opinions and political sensitivities of the hikers (considered to be future cadres or notables).

Perhaps with a special focus on Thibeaux-Brignolle (Tibo) whose father Vladimir Iosifovich had died in September 1943 as a result of his stay in various Gulag camps.

Zolotaryov and Tibo: what do these 2 pictures inspire you?

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°Personally I am slowly building my TOKEB theory particularly inspired by 2 remarks of psychological nature.

 1) the spectacular transformation of Dubinina's personality after the passage to Vizhay.

 See Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death:
 and BottledBrunette's intuition

It was not a supernatural or magical premonition that troubled Dubinina but a keen intuition that the conflicts, which we can only guess at, with some of the hostile people of Vizhay, could lead to a dramatic and terrifying outcome.

After leaving Vizhay on 26 January, only the three most experienced and politically mature hikers (Zolotaryov, Kolevatov, Tibo) did not completely disregard Dubinina's worrying intuition. The other five found this concern ridiculous and stupid and perhaps even openly laughed.

 2) The separation of the group proved by the scattering of the corpses as they were found by the rescuers.

As a result, after the suffocating exit from the tent on 1 February at the cedar and fire, there was great confusion among the hikers.
What is going on? This suffocating gas is incomprehensible and mysterious!
Zolotaryov, Kolevatov, Tibo said: this is not a joke. A mortal danger exists and they built 4 beds of branches to be able to stay hidden for a long time in the Den.

The others - were there 5 or only 3? (Kolgomorova and Slobodin remained inanimate during the descent-) having remained more vulnerable, as they were more visible near the fire, were more quickly massacred........


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