Radioactivity - Sources ?

[gunmat]

First, I want to say that I am not an expert in the field. My knowledge is superficial and stems from a course in elementary atomic physics, as part of my engineering studies several decades ago, and from reading publications by Rosalie Bertell, (RIP), and others.
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I have read Levashov's report, comments from Igor Pavlov, and Ryan Pierce's remarks. Levashov's analysis, from 1959, only shows beta radiation. This limits the radiation source to materials used extensively in civil industry. Some are mentioned here, but the list could be longer.
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Iodine (I) is used in medicine, especially in the production of radioactive isotopes used in diagnostics and treatment of various diseases, such as thyroid problems.
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Tritium is used in self-luminous objects like emergency exits, emergency signs, and clocks. It is also used in some medical diagnostic tools.
Cobalt-60 (Co-60) is used in medical radiation therapy and industrial radiography.
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Carbon-14 (C-14) is used in carbon dating.
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Strontium-90 (Sr-90) is found in the environment after nuclear tests and nuclear accidents. Strontium nitrate is used in fireworks to produce red colors. It is also used as pigments in ceramics, glass, and paints, providing a range of red colors. Strontium can be added to certain types of steel to enhance properties such as strength and formability. It can also help reduce porosity in cast steel products. Historically, strontium compounds were used in cathode-ray tube screens. Strontium compounds are used in some flame retardants. In other words, Strontium has broad applications in civil industry.

Igor Pavlov mentions in his comment that it is unlikely that only beta rays were emitted from the samples. This is supported by elementary theory of radioactive radiation. Gamma radiation can occur when beta particles collide and annihilate each other. The mass collapses and simultaneously emits weak gamma radiation. But this is beside the point. So let's stick to the fact that beta radiation was measured in 1959.
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The radiation source could have originated from sloppy handling relatively harmless radioactive material used in civil industry, and perhaps for research purposes at UPI. And maybe from radioactive contamination after a nuclear accident.
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It is not fruitful to only look for findings that confirm a particular theory. One must also consider those that open up other explanatory models.
If we look at this from a statistical perspective, strontium has a has a wider range of applications in civil industry production than the other substances I have listed, and it can also be associated with fallout from nuclear accidents…

[Axelrod]

If we talk about pollution after the Kyshtym accident, then an article in Russian Wikipedia (Kyshtym accident) gives the following data

cerium-144 (285 days) β-, γ-, α- praseodymium-144 (17.5 min / β-) → neodymium-144 (2.3⋅10¹⁵ years / α-) → cerium-140 (stable) 66%
zirconium-95 (64 days) β-, γ- niobium-95 (35 days / β-) → molybdenum-95 (stable) 25%
strontium-90 (28.8 years) β-yttrium-90 (64.1 h / β-, γ-) → zirconium-90 (stable) 5%
cesium-137 (30.17 years) β-, γ- barium-137 (stable) 3%
niobium-95 (35 days) β-molybdenum-95 (stable)
ruthenium-106 (374 days) β-rhodium-106 (29.8 s/β-, γ-) → palladium-106 (stable)

The starting element for these substances is apparently uranium-235.
I have no idea where and how radioactive iodine is obtained from uranium.

It turns out that 2/3 of the emission was cerium, but by May 18, 1959 its share could have decreased from 66% to 6%

If we consider strontium-90:
If we talk about the impact, I specifically studied that the radiation energy from yttrium-90 is approximately 4 times greater than the radiation energy from strontium-90, therefore, in this case it turns out that the impact from strontium is only 20%, and the impact from yttrium is 80%

[gunmat]

As I said, my list could be made longer. It was just an example to widen up possibilities.

[Axelrod]

There are about 100 chemical elements and several thousand of their isotopes in the parish.
This is similar to the situation where Google Translate has 100+ languages and several thousand other languages, many of which are similar to the main languages.
For example, for cerium (atomic mass 140) there are isotopes in the range 119-157,
caused by different numbers of neutrons in an atom.

I am a graduate of the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology, but nuclear physics is not my specialty, so I have to figure it out like before the exam. Especially, I cannot translate it to English correctly.

As for the annihilation of beta particles, I don’t remember, it is the annihilation of a proton and an electron, or the annihilation of an electron with a positron.

The Russian article Yttrium-90 has such information.

Yttrium-90 undergoes β− decay into stable zirconium-90 with a half-life of 64.1 hours [5], a decay energy of 2.28 MeV [1] The radiation of 0.01% 1.7 MeV [6] photons also occurs.

The figure 0.01% means that for every 10 thousand decays of strontium-90 into yttrium-90, and in parallel, 10 thousand decays of yttrium-90 into zirconium-90 occur.
Those. For every 20 thousand decays, only 1 decay occurs with gamma radiation.
But when considering thousands of isotopes, I think there are other options.

Those. Strontium-90 is ideal, but it is also a result of the decay of rubidium-90.
Rubidium-90 is formed in the decay chain of uranium-235, but there the elements decay quite quickly, and the half-life of strontium takes 30 years.

A stable version of strontium-88 is used in industry as a metal. If a human person consumes radioactive strontium-90, the body can confuse it with calcium, and therefore strontium (dangerous and toxic) can accumulate in the bones.

[gunmat]

Positrons and electrons annihilate each other when they come near each other, the mass collapses, and a weak gamma radiation (photons) is emitted, which only has a theoretical mass. But this is elementary theory.

[GlennM]

It seems to me that if the hikers knowingly suspected airborne radiation exposure it would be clothes off, snow bath time. Gentlemen to the left, ladies to the right. Then...about those clothes?

[Axelrod]

In order for electrons to annihilate with their antiparticles, these particles must come from somewhere.
There are beta plus and beta minus decays. If beta minus decay occurs for some element, then beta plus can only arise from the environment. Or we have a mixture of elements... So, I don't understand this.

Now it is no longer possible to ask what Igor Pavlov meant.

When I studied at MIPT, the teachers did not like nuclear physics, considering it a side specialty like chemistry.

In addition, something in this theory may be refined and changed over the years.
I remember the moment that in the 1995, weak and strong interactions were added to electromagnetic interactions, and now again they are classified as separate interactions. Also, now that the mu-mesons that were present in our tasks, after 30 years, no longer considered as mesons, and are called muons. This is approximately how Pluto ceased to be a platenta.

[gunmat]

...I am not sure to explain it..here I lack deeper insight..Sadly I saw tha Pavlov passed aways some years ago. Could be interesting to have him develop hsi assumptions more..

[Axelrod]

What I have read:

Cobalt-60 maybe is not suitable because "The half-life of cobalt-60 is 5.2 years; as a result of the beta decay of this nuclide, nickel-60 is formed in an excited state, which then passes to the ground state, emitting one or more gamma rays."

The same for Cesium isotopes.

(Alpha-particles and Gamma-rays are not detected by Levashov.)

Carbon-14  may be present as a little part of radioation test results, like Kalium-40, due to their natural presence in human body.

The question is about radioactive substances that exceed natural values. It may be Strontium-90 and another elements (from thousand of possible isotopes). If Strontium-90 is obliged to Kyshtym radioactive spur then the question arises, why another spur elemeтts (Ce-144, Cs-134, Cs-137) with alpha/gamma and gamma-radiation are not detected.

[gunmat]

Pavlov explained why gamma and alpha did not appear. The meter/method used by Levashov could not detect those partickles below a certain threshold..Sounds right to me. Again, its above my knowledge to say for sure..

[Axelrod]

Pavlov explained why gamma and alpha did not appear. The meter/method used by Levashov could not detect those partickles below a certain threshold..Sounds right to me. Again, its above my knowledge to say for sure..

You know, I’m used to strange explanations, and 90% of what is written on Russian forums about DPI has nothing to do with serious research. This is a heap of incompetent ideas on tourism, medicine and so on.

What I remember from laboratory work at the institute is that alpha radiation is indeed registered slowly.
But for the device to register beta radiation and skip gamma radiation is somehow strange.

[gunmat]

You might be right. My point is that contamination can have come, both from the mayak and from sloppy handling of materials in the civil industry. Also at UPI.

[gunmat]

"I believe that the measured radioactivity from the clothing samples has a completely natural explanation. The topic should be taken off the table and archived under the label 'for the particularly interested.'
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Have you reacted to the short distance the group covered on the morning of February 1st? There is only a 2-kilometer distance between the last confirmed place they stayed overnight and where the tent was found. In the diary on the 31st, Dyatlov complains about poor progress. They are only walking at a rate of 1.5 to 2 km per hour uphill. At this point, they leave some equipment behind. According to the story, on February 1st, they hike up to where the tent was found and pitched it. Using Dyatlov's estimate of progress in difficult terrain, this hike would take 1 hour. It seems highly unlikely that they only walked for an hour on February 1st, 1959, before pitching the tent. There is something seriously wrong with this part of the story." ( Is this part of the story put together,just to have a story, without further asessments?)

[Axelrod]

I try to explain

In order to investigate in this direction, you must either be a specialist in this field or study reference books.
If we consider the source of radiation as the Kyshty accident, then the unloading of waste from a nuclear reactor consists

Let’s say that the emergency tank was loaded at the beginning of 1957, and the accident occurred in September 9 months later.
Share of waste
- 66% (33% at the time of the accident, ~8% after 3 years) - cerium-144
- 5% (~5% after 3 years) - strontium-90
- 3% - cesium-137

Since the half-life for cerium-144 is equal to the gestation period of 9 months, then after 36 months it is
after 27 months (May 1959) 1/8 × 66% = 8% remained in the form of the elements cerium-144 and praseodymium-144,
and 7/8 in the form of the substance neodymium 144, which has only alpha radioactivity, which occurs over 2300 trillion years and is barely perceptible



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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium-137

Caesium-137 has a half-life of about 30.05 years.[1] About 94.6% decays by beta emission to a metastable nuclear isomer of barium: barium-137m (137mBa, Ba-137m). The remainder directly populates the ground state of 137Ba, which is stable. Barium-137m has a half-life of about 153 seconds, and is responsible for all of the gamma ray emissions in samples of 137Cs. Barium-137m decays to the ground state by emission of photons having energy 0.6617 MeV.A total of 85.1% of 137Cs decay generates gamma ray emission in this manner.
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My gamma healing sensor, the battery of which I have not changed for 10 years, worked six months ago, now it turns on, but shows zeros.
Apparently the battery needs to be changed. But it is unlikely that such a problem existed in 1959.

Of the three popular accident products, only strontium90 fits the examination data.
it decays into yttrium-90 with an energy of 566 kiloelectronvolts (5.6 billion °C or kelvin),
and then within 64 hours the half-life of this yttrium into stable zirconium with energy
2.28 megaelectronvolts (thermal equivalent 22.8 billion °C)

(I find it difficult to convert these billions of degrees Celsius/Uelwyn into Fahrenheit, as the Americans like)

At most, Kolevatov’s heart counted 9 thousand decays.
If the cause of this is strontium-90, then it has only one gamma decay per 20 thousand decays.
Which may not be registered due to the sensitivity of the device.

Igor Pavloc (although it seems to me that the Partorg recently wrote it) may not have been aware of specific values.

But this variant with Strontium etc. cannot be the case with cesium-137 (or cesium-134),
for the device to register 0.5 MEV of radiation and at the same time not notice 1 MEV of gamma radiation is doubtful (a problem with the device, like mine).
Usually the opposite happens - devices do not notice beta radiation
  those. the version of spontaneous natural pollution is eliminated.

Tritium is very weak beta-element. Another elements may be considered further.

[gunmat]

If you say so. I am not an expert in theese matters, but rely on what you write..But have you : "Have you reacted to the short distance the group covered on the morning of February 1st? There is only a 2-kilometer distance between the last confirmed place they stayed overnight and where the tent was found. In the diary on the 31st, Dyatlov complains about poor progress. They are only walking at a rate of 1.5 to 2 km per hour uphill. At this point, they leave some equipment behind. According to the story, on February 1st, they hike up to where the tent was found and pitched it. Using Dyatlov's estimate of progress in difficult terrain, this hike would take 1 hour. It seems highly unlikely that they only walked for an hour on February 1st, 1959, before pitching the tent. There is something seriously wrong with this part of the story." ( Is this part of the story put together,just to have a story, without further asessments?)

[Axelrod]

It seems to me that the question about 1 hour is offtopic, but since you ask, I’ll write my opinion.

1) In the summer I had a 30 km hike in the mountains around my citytown. If I had not caught the bus at 19-15, I would have had to walk another 12 km or wait for a taxi.

out of 8 hours of walking in the mountains, only 1 hour (after 12 noon) was uphill. What do I want to say?
The difficulty of the climb depends on the temperature ang luggage. At +35*C I stopped 4 times. at +25 I stopped once to rest.
It’s very strange to imagine that some bandits preyed on the group for 4 days, although they could have caught up with them on the first day, On the fourth night they didn’t disturb them, and then they specifically waited for the group to ascend to 300 meters in altitude.

Vietnamka (she leaved this foeum) told to Oleg Taimen in an interview that Dyatlov’s group walked 2 km on February 1, and the next day they had a difficult transition to Otorten. I laughed at this notion. Since Vietnamka - works in a hospital, I imagined the situation: she walked up to the 7th floor by stairs, and then she had a difficult passage along the corridor.


2) We do not know the exact time when the group started climbing and when they stopped. Maybe it was 9 a.m. - 12 a.m. - 15 a.m.
Perhaps this is not the way it is suggested to us. Perhaps the storage shed was made not at the place where they spent the night, but in the middle of the ascent. The fact that the storage shed (in the snow) was made in the place where it was found is unambiguous.

Other details we can only guess in all options.
The tent definitely was set up in the place where it was found (other opinions arise as a “crisis of the genre”)

[gunmat]

My reaction when I saw the distance, don't need a fixed time for arrival. It is not climbing, but a gentle slope uphill. Walking this distance of 2 km is easily done in an hour and a half under these weather conditions, with 15 kg on your back. I have walked such distance under similiar conditions in my younger days, using less then 1 hour. So something must have happened, but what?
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It can be difficult to imagine, but the slope they walked is not climbing but just gently uphill. And if they walked the route proposed, most of the route would be plane, not up and not down. The altitude is about 850 meter where the tent was spotted. I see what you say about possible intruders, and I agree about what you say there. But speculations about possible intruders should be sorted out under a different topic..The remaining question in this matter should be : Why did they walk only one hour that day? An answer could be that they walked much longer but turned around, walked back and picthed the tent. Still I dont swollow it. Something happen between 31 and 1..

[GlennM]

Much is being made of the question of radioactive contamination, I suppose this is meant to indicate some sort of military test, or accident. Lets say it does. Radiation should be found in the environment where the clothes were found as a function of radioactive decay. It would be widespread.I recall that during the initial search and during latter day investigations, radiation detection gear was used. It produced nothing that raised an alarm then or now. Lets take a wild ride and imagine some isotope was made in the USSR and was going to buy freedom for the hikers with the CIA. Do we really believe this is something to be carried around in a pocket? Do we really believe radio technicians got this material from their comrades in the reactor?  I'll bet radium for glow in the dark watches, clocks and the like was easier to come by.

My suspicion is that the rescuers had the detection equipment on hand as prospectors. They might have been curious to know if any in the group were prospecting too...for souvenier mineral samples.

[gunmat]

Agreed. I'm not sure if it was done intentionally, but the hype around radioactivity distracts attention from other more obvious things. You've mentioned murder, outlining a motive that stands on its own. I'll comment on this later. In my opinion, the "mystery" of radioactivity should be taken off the table and archived under the label "just for educational purposes".