November 30, 2022, 11:57:53 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Violence, order and geometry  (Read 502 times)

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September 30, 2022, 04:36:55 PM
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Charles


6 of 9 of the corpses were found neatly arranged and the 3 remaining also on a line:

- Doroshenko and Krivonishenko were lying in parallel at the Cedar

- Zolotaryov, Kolevatov and Thibeaux-Brignolle were lying in parallel at the Ravine

- Dubinina was lying perpendicular to them

- Slobodin, Dyatlov and Kolmogorova were lying on a line from the Cedar to the Tent, all with the head towards uphill.

Corpses were not scattered, they were arranged and in three different locations. Each location following a precise pattern. Parallels and perpendicular at the Cedar and the Ravine, consecutive dots between the Cedar and the Tent.

That is to say the violence of the "unknown compelling force" which impacted the hikers was geometer. This incredible amount of violence bloodying their faces, crushing their skulls and chests, bruising and burning their skins, driving Krivonishenko to chop a piece of flesh from his hand with his teeth, that violence also liked straight line, parallels and perpendicular.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2022, 04:41:39 PM by Charles »
 

September 30, 2022, 05:13:43 PM
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Charles


9 objects on Kholyat Syakhl:



« Last Edit: September 30, 2022, 05:25:02 PM by Charles »
 

September 30, 2022, 05:24:29 PM
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Charles


Or else, here are two sets of 9 objects. Which one is the result of accident and chaos, which one is not?


 

September 30, 2022, 08:16:36 PM
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GlennM


Those dead at the cedar were laid out by respect from the living. Those in the ravine were situated for warmth and shelter. Those proceeding back to the tent fell inline as they succumbed. I personally attribute no symbolism, nor occult meaning to their arrangement. On the other hand, if it was murder and mayhem, I'd expect the criminal investigation would indicated it. I would argue that careful murderers hide their crime. I would argue careless murderers would not care where the victims fell, nor would they pose the remains.Does treating this tragedy as a conspiracy result in giving the surviving relatives some false hope that they will be paid for their loss? Since it is unlikely that conspiracy hypotheses will  be proven, this is going to endure like Jack the Ripper.

As far as I can tell, only the findings from tissue samples are missing. My guess is that when found, they will be unremarkable.
 

September 30, 2022, 10:08:10 PM
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Игорь Б.


Доказано, что двое у кедра лежали головами к ветру.
Доказано, что трое на склоне лежали на прямой к палатке.
Доказано, что трое в ручье лежали укрывшись куртками.
Доказано, что тело Дубининой перевернулось и сползло с уступа.
The answers to all the questions related to the death of Dyatlov group:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=110407
Evidence of the death of the Dyatlov group from the Wolverine chemical weapon:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=69286
 

October 01, 2022, 12:39:09 AM
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Charles






So the hikers panicked at the tent, a true panic, the one corresponding to a stampede when herds run for their lives, then they experienced extreme suffering, and finally they died and laid as in a cemetery, and found time to pay some respect to the dead... Another fairytale?

And GlennM, you know, geometry has noting to do with magic, it is a science, really nothing to do with bewitchment.

Our representations of panic come from the film industry, where people flee the apparition of aliens and creatures coming out of hell and other dimensions, but these aliens don't exist. Panic as you imagine it do not happen in reality or so rarely that nobody experience it during his lifetime. The rare images of panic that I recall are of the "Heysel disaster":



And all the people who died, it was not directly because of panicky fear and loss of all rationality, but only because the ones who were pushing couldn't see that there was no way out.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2022, 12:59:14 AM by Charles »
 

October 01, 2022, 12:58:27 AM
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Charles


Those in the ravine were situated for warmth and shelter.

For shelter? They built an igloo or better, an "ice hotel" as they were engineers? Or little elves with pointy caps kindly showed them the entrance to a magical cave?



But people who don't have any means to warm themselves, they don't stretch out their full length, they curl up and instinctively save their body heat.


 

October 01, 2022, 01:53:44 AM
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Ziljoe


I don't think anyone is implying panic, as for films , much of our representations in all walks of life are influenced by them, just like your love and passion clips etc. The same could be said for any genre of film. Life is much more humdrum.

As for the ravine four, the injuries are consistent with a snow collapse breaking the ribs, and skull fracture. Lying down next to each other for warmth is good practice, especially if there was  space available , perhaps from a naturally formed snow cave.  The bodies wouldn't curl up in a ball in that situation because it would appear that was the postion they were in when it the roof potentially collapsed. If you do some research you will see how bodies come to rest from exposure to the cold.

I don't think anyone mentioned a stampede. Maybe panic is the wrong word, alarmed , fright, fear may be more appropriate. Obviously ,the reason to leave the tent is an important factor in how we look at the events that followed.

To ask the question if they panicked is sensible. They may have got a fright, heard or saw a gun shot, gas canister, snow slip, wind or Wolverine. 

An open mind is useful instead of having a predetermined conclusion and forcing the evidence to fit. But carry on. I'm interested in this violence , order and geometry thing...
 

October 01, 2022, 08:47:46 AM
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Charles


I don't think anyone is implying panic,

A few quotes of different replies from all around the forum:

There is an initial panic when you halt, do nothing except register that a quake is happening. Next, comes a rush of self preservation where you put yourself in motion. This could be running out of a structure, running to a door jamb or diving under a desk. It isnt thoughtful, it is a gut response. For the hikers it would be cut the tent and get out! Why did they go to the trees? I think whatever panicked them in the first place was understood that it could happen again.

I still think there was a partial avalanche at the tent that panicked the hikers, and another more deadly one in the ravine. The fact that three of the hikers tried to head back to the tent hints that their panic wore off and they finally had a better understanding of their situation.

it is possible that one or two of the key group members were affected, and they could have panicked and initiated a panick of the rest of the group.

Isn't it more likely that a natural event or events happened in extremely bad weather that panicked the hikers in the darkness? And made them act out of fear instead of rational thought?

In the still of the night they might have heard the sound of an avalanche somewhere and panicked.

It was clear that the Tourists left the tent in a panic and were undressed.

if there were enough air, they or one of them panicked anyways

In great pain he panicked and slashed the tent to escape

They panicked and left in a blizzard. Period.

And this last one too is nice...

however there was panic by me for 5 seconds , this panic then turned to concern of how I remove this growling cat from my tent

But if anyone isn't implying panic and if there was no panic, then the corpses should have been found at the labaz.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2022, 01:09:39 PM by Charles »
 

October 01, 2022, 09:24:41 AM
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Ziljoe


Charles, as I said maybe panic is the wrong word, it fits with , fright, alarm, spooked etc. It's the unknown. But I was referring to your "true panic" . However the previous discussion was if the panicked in the sense that they ran down hill and as I understand it , other members were putting there thoughts forward and discussing why they left the tent. I think it was mostly concluded that they made a decision to move towards the ceder , not by panic but it seemed the best option. It's you that uses the phrase true panic and stampeded.

"So the hikers panicked at the tent, a true panic, the one corresponding to a stampede when herds run for their lives, then they experienced extreme suffering, and finally they died and laid as in a cemetery, and found time to pay some respect to the dead... Another fairytale?"

Anyway get back to your geometry thing....I canna wait ....
 
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October 01, 2022, 10:47:00 AM
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Charles


It is not my geometry but the geometry of the scene, that some describe as panic and chaos.


Anyone could understand that the sketch at the left is just the figure of the hikers as they were found and allegedly died:




And it is too much geometry and order for an "accident", like with the grouping of the fractures in the small area of vital organs.

Doroshenko and Krivonischenko laid in parallels, Zolotaryov, Thibeau-Brignolle and Kolevatov laid in parallels, even Dyatlov, Kolmogorova and Slobodin, only Dubinina didn't, but she was at the perpendicular. They were not cristals, they got in these positions when dying, under stress, and suffering... but they managed to die in 2+3 parallels ? On the slope, their position is understandable as they tried to come back to the tent, but I count them in the global picture as well. There was more order in the position of their corpses, allegedly after a storm or an avalanche, natural chaos contaminating the 9 hikers and pushing them to erratic decisions and behaviors, more order in the position of their corpses than they left inside the tent and in front of the tent...

The rescuers found "scattered" objects inside the tent and "scattered" objects close to the tent, but they found beautifully parallel and perpendicular corpses down the slope. The corpses were not scattered, they were geometrically ordered.



« Last Edit: October 02, 2022, 08:21:16 AM by Charles »
 

October 01, 2022, 12:11:11 PM
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Charles


So let's gather the figures we have...



And why not add to the summarization the specific defensive injuries of the three who died on the slope?


And to those repetitive patterns the 3 collisions of Ivan Prodanov and Alexander Kolevatov in TAVDA, IVDEL and KHOLYAT SYAKHL:


How "accident" can be organized and careful about order and classification!

---

And these are all facts, not imaginary wolverines-mermaids-rusalkas and miraculous ice cave of the underworld dug up from Russian mythology.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2022, 07:12:37 AM by Charles »
 

October 01, 2022, 05:45:56 PM
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GlennM


I see no link between a vengeful assassin and the location of nine bodies. It is the geometry of coincidence if anything. At the cedar, clothing was appropriated and the bodies laid out respectfully. In the ravine, those huddling for mutual warmth would do a poor job if their knees were at their chest. I have no good explanation for why all four in the ravine were not huddled as a group unless one rolled off and tried to get back. Those who blazed a trail back to the tent fell in a line.

Evacuating the tent was deliberate as evidenced by prints in the snow. When the slab slip happened,  breathing is first priority. Warming is second. Staying warm( shelter) is third. All these things were done. They died because Nature was too severe.

Can one have defensive wounds against the elements? I think so.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2022, 05:57:13 PM by GlennM »
 

October 01, 2022, 08:06:12 PM
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Charles


It is the geometry of coincidence if anything.

It is what is called enumerative induction in logic. And it is largely enough in criminology and forensic matters as there is no question of establishing a new law of physics but only of approaching the truth about a singular event. And much better than your arbitrary affirmations and other imaginations... because you never bother to verify or substantiate your assertions (like with "I would expect the report to say something like blunt force trauma consistent with bludgeoning with a club, rifle butt etc. There was no such description").  grin1
« Last Edit: October 01, 2022, 08:10:50 PM by Charles »
 

October 01, 2022, 10:32:50 PM
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GlennM


Hi Charles,
To be clear, I agree with the latest official findings by the Soviet authorities. If anything, I parrot what is for most people common knowledge about the incident. As such, when I am mocked for my point of view, I feel that the mockery is also directed at the official explanation. Indeed, it may extend beyond that to others who have divergent points compared to yours.
I think as an expert on the subject, a post about the position of the deceased is really a digression from your thesis. Does it require this kind of bolstering? I thought your general  research was very good, though unprovable. Then again all of this discussion is unprovable.


Since I do not have a time machine, I can only comment that the resting place of the deceased is more easily explained as a consequence of how they perished than the work of some ghoul. From what I know of such matters,,which is not a lot, when corpses are posed, it is obvious that they have been manipulated. There is usually a message to be inferred. In this regard, much has been made of how the hikers suffered and died, the villains leaving no clues for authorities to start an investigation such as yours. If I understand this right, you are apparently positing the opposite. Am I reading that the murderers intentionally posed the dead hikers for effect?  If so it was certainly private symbolism at best and incredibly risky to boot. Personally, I remain unconvinced. In fact the only real question is why they left their tent. Since we are all of separate opinions in the absence of definitive proof, the tragedy lives on. I just prefer the explanation that requires fewer assumptions. Your turn.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2022, 10:45:54 PM by GlennM »
 

October 02, 2022, 08:01:50 AM
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Charles


mockery is also directed at the official explanation (...)  I just prefer the explanation that requires fewer assumptions.

And it deserves mockery. When prosecutor Andrey Kuryakov presented his 3D model, he excluded the labaz of the picture:



https://dyatlovpass.com/prosecutors-investigation?filter_page=2&rbid=18461

How easy to get "fewer assumptions" when you just cut and excluded such important material! What was the cost in terms of time and efforts to include the labaz in the 3D model? Close to nothing. They featured kilometers of empty taiga but excluded the labaz and its 55kg of food, shoes and equipment? They didn't include it because they went to easy and lazy explanations.

And by the way, the exclusion of the labaz in the 3D model is typical Stalinian methodology to easily solve problems:



You don't want to deal with a troublesome issue? You just get it out of the picture.

From what I know of such matters,,which is not a lot, when corpses are posed, it is obvious that they have been manipulated.

Of course. That's my point here.

Am I reading that the murderers intentionally posed the dead hikers for effect?

Where are you reading it???

Since we are all of separate opinions in the absence of definitive proof

But it is not possible to consider as equal explanations based on "yeti", "UFO" or "teleportation" as listed in the "theory menu" of dyatlovpass.com and explanations based on avalanche, storm, crime or internal strife. And among the second explanations, differences have to be made as well, according to the available evidence material.


« Last Edit: October 02, 2022, 09:07:34 AM by Charles »
 

October 02, 2022, 08:57:33 AM
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Charles


Enumerative induction does not allow to conclude to universal assumptions like with the laws of physics, but in issues that are limited to the particular (singular is about one, particular is about more than one but not all, universal is about all), they can produce satisfying conclusions. For example, from the observation of a single drug deal at the corner of a street, you can't conclude anything. But if you observe three or four drug deals at the same corner of the same street, you can conclude to drug trafficking. And these conclusions will be legit and are used everyday in our societies.

3 occasions where Prodanov and Kolevatov were at the same place means they had a common history. 20 metacarpophalangeal joints injuries means there was a fight with opponents. 30 bone fractures in the area of vital organs means these organs were aimed at. 5 corpses laid in parallels means they have been manipulated. These conclusions don't have any value in the field of the universal and laws of physics, but in the field of the particular and human behavior, they have a high value, not an absolute value but a high value. A much higher value than for example "they found and entered a snow cave" which is based on nothing, and here absolutely nothing.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2022, 11:29:31 PM by Charles »
 

October 02, 2022, 09:31:00 AM
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GlennM


Charles, recently there has been a breakthrough in a infamous American murder mystery, the Zodiac killer. It seems that there are enough circumstantial evidence pointers to get people excited about it. The case is 50 years old, yet a new revelation is discovered.

With regard to the DPI, I am reminded that everyone who visits a place leaves something of themselves behind. Can you forge such a definitive link between the culprits and victims? Of course, there are currently no artifacts to yield fingerprint nor DNA evidence, It would be compelling if you could find something. I encourage you to redouble your effort in this regard. Somebody knows something. Somebody left evidence of their presence. Follow the money. Follow the travels. Follow the circle of friends. Supplies and silence have a price. If there is a lead to follow, then by all means do so. Bring us something material and move us closer to resolution. It will be appreciated by all. If Zodiac can be solved, DPI can too. Good luck.
 
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October 02, 2022, 09:41:14 AM
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Charles


Can you forge such a definitive link between the culprits and victims? Of course, there are currently no artifacts to yield fingerprint nor DNA evidence, It would be compelling if you could find something.

I said that the State Archive of the Sverdlovsk Region is the place where to dig and specially in documents related to Serov on Jan. 24, 1959. The breakthrough would be to establish the presence of Ivan Prodanov in Serov at this date, and better at the police station.

Whoever bothers to go the State Archive of the Sverdlovsk Region to check about Jan. 24, 1959 and finds evidence of Prodanov's presence in Serov will be credited the breakthrough... A Russian citizen has to do the work.

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1127.msg17910#msg17910
« Last Edit: October 02, 2022, 10:13:29 AM by Charles »
 

October 02, 2022, 10:11:51 AM
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Charles


One of the completely forgotten facts is the common history of Prodanov and Kolevatov. If he was not the head of the search and the 1st secretary of CPSU in Ivdel, Prodanov could have been interrogated as a witness...

As a witness! It is so big! And what the interrogation would have been like?

- Where do you know Kolevatov from?
- From Tavda. (fact)
- When was it?
- From 1938 to 1942. (fact)
- During 4 years?
- Yes, during 4 years (fact)
- How did you met him?
- He was the son of my colleague Serguey Kolevatov at Tavda Woodworking Kombinat. (fact)
- What were your positions?
- Serguey Kolevatov was head of accounting department and I was head of production. (fact)
- Have you met with Alexander Kolevatov after 1942?
- I have seen his corpse in May 1959, during the investigation. (fact)
- And have you met with him at any other occasion?
- ...
- Have you met with Kolevatov in Ivdel on Jan. 25, 1959?
- ...
- Have you met with Kolevatov in Serov on Jan. 24, 1959?
- ...
- There is not a single mention in the case files that you knew the Kolevatovs. (fact)
- Correct
- Did you inform prosecutor Tempalov that you knew the Kolevatovs?
- ...
- Did you hide from prosecutor Tempalov that you knew the Kolevatovs?
- ...

Prodanov could be interrogated at least as a witness and probably as a suspect, if he had not been the 1st secretary of CPSU in Ivdel and appointed head of search operations. Among the locals, Prodanov was the only one to be linked, and strongly and intimately linked, to one of the hikers.

The hikers called Ognev "an old friend" because they already met him once during one or two days, how could Prodanov be called he who spent 4 years in Tavda with the Kolevatovs? An old "very good friend"? A "relative"?

That is to say, if Prodanov had been interrogated during the investigation he would have been very embarrassed to give an answer at the last question of the identification form:

Surname, name and middle name:
Year of birth:
Place of birth:
Nationality:
Party affiliation:
Education:
Occupation at present:
Criminal record:
Permanent residence:
Passport:
Relation to the accused:


Actually, this last question was only answered by witnesses who had no relation to the victims, they filled the form with "stranger" or "no". But the witnesses who were relatives, friends and acquaintances from UPI, they all left the last line blank... According to Tempalov's records of interrogations, we can't make any difference of degree between the witnesses who knew the hikers.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2022, 11:30:36 PM by Charles »
 

October 02, 2022, 12:36:54 PM
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Charles


And there is another repetition which deserves to be noted:

In the train cart a young drunk accused us of stealing his booze from his pocket. For the second time this day the cops were involved. (Group diary, Jan. 24)

Yes, we have already been spotted 2 times by the police. (Kolmogorova's diary, Jan. 24)

The first involvement was the incident at the Serov police station which lasted until the end of the day, the second involvement is in the train from Serov to Ivdel, that same day. It means that there were policemen in the same train. Were these policemen here by chance, were they policemen from the security of railways transport as in all trains, or were they policemen from Serov sent in the same train to keep an eye on the hikers after the police station incident?
 

October 02, 2022, 08:36:35 PM
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GlennM


Charles, who do you think will do the archival search? Which Russian DPI investigator is supporting your hypothesis? I hope you can inspire someone to make the search. If they corroborate your hypothesis, what is the next step?
 

October 02, 2022, 09:31:45 PM
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Charles


Thank you GlennM, I hope some Russian specialist of contemporary History, a student maybe, could be tented to claim the credit of solving the case, if my hypothesis was correct.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2022, 09:40:01 PM by Charles »
 
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