Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nigel Evans on March 27, 2019, 04:14:02 PM

Title: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 27, 2019, 04:14:02 PM

 (https://i.ibb.co/pP8hGFP/IMG-20190327-212302.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1n5zhWn)


The above drawing shows the ravine four in three points in time, all three diagrams are in plan form, i.e. as if looking down from above. :-
BEFORE = before the deadly event, they are sat in the the den.
EVENT   = the configuration of the bodies as the den collapses in on them. This forces them down and to lie on the floor as described. Then an extremely heavy object passes along the orange path in the snow above.
MAY      = after death the bodies remain frozen in the den as shown above. However with the spring thaw the flow of water and melting of the ice above the bodies together with some buoyancy "shuffles" them downstream into the configuration with which they are discovered.

Detailed discussion of the theory
BEFORE :-
EVENT :-
Speculation as to the nature of the objectBall lightning could do this!  kewl1
However the clear favourite has to be a heavy tracked vehicle.

Reasons :-Further thoughtsLyudmila suffers the worst predation from rodents. This is because as the spring thaw creates a trickle of water down the ravine into the river the scent of decomposition advertises the bodies across a significant distance. When these rodents follow this scent the first body they encounter is Lyudmila's.
Now was it a complete coincidence that a tracked vehicle was using the ravine that night to ascend to pas the tree line? Or was there a radar signature above Kholat Syakhl that the military were interested in? Did the surviving three at the cedar see a vehicle ascending the hill and set off to seek rescue?
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Star man on March 27, 2019, 04:49:34 PM

 (https://i.ibb.co/pP8hGFP/IMG-20190327-212302.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1n5zhWn)


The above drawing shows the ravine four in three points in time, all three diagrams are in plan form, i.e. as if looking down from above. :-
BEFORE = before the deadly event, they are sat in the the den.
EVENT   = the configuration of the bodies as the den collapses in on them. This forces them down and to lie on the floor as described. Then an extremely heavy object passes along the orange path in the snow above.
MAY      = after death the bodies remain frozen in the den as shown above. However with the spring thaw the flow of water and melting of the ice above the bodies together with some buoyancy "shuffles" them downstream into the configuration with which they are discovered.

Detailed discussion of the theory
BEFORE :-
  • The ravine is full of snow (as at the end of Feb) but at the edge of the ravine the wind has created a vertical section of snow that allows it to be exploited to produce a snow cave.
  • Lyudmila is only wearing socks and uses a jacket sleeve to protect her left foot and calf from the cold wall.
  • Nicolai is on watch (wearing two watches) and sits across the entrance. He doesn't have his own jacket (which buttons up) so he borrows Lyudmila's zipped jacket. It's my preference that this act is consensual, in the Ortorten News they are linked romantically. Lyudmila sits at the back (warmer) and has two jumpers and two shirts. Maybe they huddle close.
EVENT :-
  • An extremely heavy object passes over the top of the den. This causes the den roof to collapse and the walls to deform.
  • This collapse results in forcing the four into the configuration as shown.
  • The object moves upwards in the diagram along the orange band exerting a crushing force through the snow such that although no skin tissue is bruised  the larger volumes of the chest and head as shown are crushed in the following time order.
  • Lyudmila - lying on her right side, chest fractures to right side. Her neck receives sufficient down force that it dislocates the thyroid area of the throat.  There is then a second crushing event that fractures the left side of her chest.
  • Nicolai - his head is facing Semyon with the rhs of the head against the den floor but with his chest facing the den floor. The crushing force presses the head against the den floor until the rhs of the skull and the base of the skull fracture, deforming the shape of his head. His right shoulder receives internal bruising.
  • Semyon - is lying on his back, receives a chest fracture on his rhs, right shoulder blade pressed on the den floor fractures and the rhs of his head is pressed against the den floor creating a wound.
  • Alexsander - is lying on his right side. He is pushed down with such force that his mastoid process (conical area of bone behind the right ear) connects with the den floor creating a wound. His left leg is lying on the den floor and the rolling object presses it hard against the floor creating internal bleeding on the inside of the knee. Semyon's chest protects Alexsander's knee from further crushing. Alexsander's neck receives sufficient downforce to dislocate the thyroid area. Alexsander's face is pressed down hard enough that the pathologist records an oval defect in the right cheek.

Speculation as to the nature of the objectBall lightning could do this!  kewl1
However the clear favourite has to be a heavy tracked vehicle.

Reasons :-
  • At least one pathologist has stated that Lyudmila's fractures require two events and a tracked vehicle fits this very well, as it got very close the den collapse would have created a crater. The front of the vehicle drops into the crater creating one fracture and then as the front climbs out, the rear of the vehicle also drops into the same crater creating the second.
  • The "crushing zone" seems to be very narrow, googling this most WW2 tanks for example have a track width of approx 30cm.
Further thoughtsLyudmila suffers the worst predation from rodents. This is because as the spring thaw creates a trickle of water down the ravine into the river the scent of decomposition advertises the bodies across a significant distance. When these rodents follow this scent the first body they encounter is Lyudmila's.
Now was it a complete coincidence that a tracked vehicle was using the ravine that night to ascend to pas the tree line? Or was there a radar signature above Kholat Syakhl that the military were interested in? Did the surviving three at the cedar see a vehicle ascending the hill and set off to seek rescue?

It's an interesting idea.  Actually after looking at your drawings I thought you were going to say a tree fell on the den, because that would provide a simple explanation.  The tree would then bounce and roll off further into the ravine where it is also covered in snow and therefore not detected when the bodies were recovered.

A tree could have been weakened by the wind and weight of snow.  A tank is a bit more difficult for me to comprehend.

I have thought that the injuries were caused by them falling out of a tree, but it may be that a tree fell on them.  Was there any sign of a fallen tree near the den later when the snow melted?

Saying that could a large rock have been dislodged on the side of the ravine and rolled over the den?  That's another possibility - some kind of rock fall.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 27, 2019, 05:04:25 PM


It's an interesting idea.  Actually after looking at your drawings I thought you were going to say a tree fell on the den, because that would provide a simple explanation.  The tree would then bounce and roll off further into the ravine where it is also covered in snow and therefore not detected when the bodies were recovered.

A tree could have been weakened by the wind and weight of snow.  A tank is a bit more difficult for me to comprehend.

I have thought that the injuries were caused by them falling out of a tree, but it may be that a tree fell on them.  Was there any sign of a fallen tree near the den later when the snow melted?

Saying that could a large rock have been dislodged on the side of the ravine and rolled over the den?  That's another possibility - some kind of rock fall.

Regards

Star man
You're quite near the tree line there so the trees are somewhat modest, the cedar being an exception. I can't see the weight of an average fir tree being sufficient, this has to be quite a few tonnes i think to exert this crushing pressure through the snow. Also the den has to collapse and configure the victims before the crushing begins and then there's a crater? Also i can't see a tree fall applying a crushing force across three bodies (one metre?) quite evenly. A much better fit is that something very heavy travelled over them applying the same crushing force having collapsed the den as it approached. Ball lightning could fit  kewl1
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 27, 2019, 05:16:09 PM
The problem with the tracked vehicle of course is that how were the tracks not discovered during digging down in May? Unless there was an extensive effort to conceal all traces?
I like the idea that the "cedar 3" saw the vehicle go past and were trying to reach it.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Star man on March 28, 2019, 12:37:42 AM
The problem with the tracked vehicle of course is that how were the tracks not discovered during digging down in May? Unless there was an extensive effort to conceal all traces?
I like the idea that the "cedar 3" saw the vehicle go past and were trying to reach it.

How would a tank get there?

I really find it difficult to see that ball lightning could attain several tonnes of relativistic mass.

Given that relativistic mass is given by:

M = ym
y is Lorentz transform
m is rest mass

And mass energy is MC^2

Where did all that energy go?

Regards

Star man


Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 28, 2019, 03:21:19 AM
How would a tank get there?

Maybe it was not a tank

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/GT-S_transpoter%2C_Technical_museum_Togliatti.JPG/1280px-GT-S_transpoter%2C_Technical_museum_Togliatti.JPG)
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%A2-%D0%A1
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 28, 2019, 04:11:11 AM
The problem with the tracked vehicle of course is that how were the tracks not discovered during digging down in May? Unless there was an extensive effort to conceal all traces?
I like the idea that the "cedar 3" saw the vehicle go past and were trying to reach it.

How would a tank get there?By avoiding trees  kewl1
I really find it difficult to see that ball lightning could attain several tonnes of relativistic mass.

Given that relativistic mass is given by:

M = ym
y is Lorentz transform
m is rest mass

And mass energy is MC^2

Where did all that energy go?
Have you seen this post? :-
Good paper from the :-U.S. Department of Energy
Office of Scientific and Technical Information
https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1107768 (https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1107768)

It considers the Fitzgerald event of 1868. - http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/first_installment_extreme_ball_lightning.htm (http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/first_installment_extreme_ball_lightning.htm)
Note the mass calculations.

Also checkout - http://www.ball-lightning.info/Ball-lightning/Roller.html (http://www.ball-lightning.info/Ball-lightning/Roller.html)
N.B. "GLO" is their term for "Globular Light emitting Object".
Regards

Star man
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 28, 2019, 04:27:46 AM
How would a tank get there?

Maybe it was not a tank

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/GT-S_transpoter%2C_Technical_museum_Togliatti.JPG/1280px-GT-S_transpoter%2C_Technical_museum_Togliatti.JPG)
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%A2-%D0%A1 (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%A2-%D0%A1)
It doesn't have to be a tracked vehicle, a multi wheeled vehicle would do it, e.g. 6x6. But it must be heavy!
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 28, 2019, 04:29:36 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkovchanka
Is of the correct era.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 28, 2019, 05:25:20 AM
Also GT-S (Gaz 47) is from the same era:
Quote
Year of production   1954-1964
Don't know the status of the countries forming soviet union, but from this map I see that there is a border between the tent and the cedar (dotted line)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-map-10.jpg)

Maybe a border patrol?
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Ehtnisba on March 28, 2019, 09:17:55 AM
Woow this way Tibo's head is where Zolotarev's chest is, so it explains how two have chest injuries but only one broken skull. It could have been one object that caused all three injuries.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Ehtnisba on March 28, 2019, 09:40:01 AM
Also GT-S (Gaz 47) is from the same era:
Quote
Year of production   1954-1964
Don't know the status of the countries forming soviet union, but from this map I see that there is a border between the tent and the cedar (dotted line)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-map-10.jpg)

Maybe a border patrol?

It is written граница леса , which means tree line. This just the "border" where the forest ends , no a real border for something .
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Star man on March 28, 2019, 09:40:44 AM
Could any of the suggested vehicles drive in and out of the ravine?  What are the ranges of the vehicles?  Why would they drive into the ravine?

A tree or large boulder would be nice and simple  whist1
Regards
Star man
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 28, 2019, 10:22:47 AM
Could any of the suggested vehicles drive in and out of the ravine?  What are the ranges of the vehicles?  Why would they drive into the ravine?

A tree or large boulder would be nice and simple  whist1
Regards
Star man
Once the ravine is full of snow it becomes a treeless road through the forest up to the treeline?(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-347.jpg)
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 28, 2019, 11:09:19 AM
Could any of the suggested vehicles drive in and out of the ravine?  What are the ranges of the vehicles?  Why would they drive into the ravine?

Google automatic translation:
Quote
GAZ-47 transporter was a crawler -driven snow and swamp vehicle and was designed for use in particularly difficult road and climatic conditions for transporting people and goods, towing trailers, during geological exploration, in the construction and maintenance of oil and gas pipelines , power lines and communications, search and emergency rescue work and other needs of the army and national economy .
[...]
In 1959–1960, the GAZ-47 tracked transporter took part in the Antarctic inland transition on the sledge-tracked train on the route between Mirny  - Pionerskaya  - Vostok-1 stations - Komsomolskaya  - Vostok - Amundsen-Scott (South geographical pole).
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%A2-%D0%A1

@Nigel Evans, my opinion is the same, during the winter rivers turn into "treeless roads" See the picture of the Lozva river:

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-27-january-Lozva-03.jpg)

Maybe the vehicle route was Lozva river -> tributary of Lozva river ->hiker's ravine. As the "den" was build under the snow of the ravine, maybe the vehicle passed over it, making the ravine collapsing.

As for the traces, haw many weeks have passed from the incident untill the first search team was sent? ;)
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on March 28, 2019, 02:33:44 PM
Could any of the suggested vehicles drive in and out of the ravine?  What are the ranges of the vehicles?  Why would they drive into the ravine?

A tree or large boulder would be nice and simple  whist1
Regards
Star man

No Military vehicles caused their demise. What would such vehicles be doing in a Ravine where they can get stuck badly. And even if by some extraordinary mistake a vehicle or vehicles were in that area and did cause an accident then why didnt they stop and help those injured etc. And what about the event at the Tent.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on March 28, 2019, 02:38:44 PM

 (https://i.ibb.co/pP8hGFP/IMG-20190327-212302.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1n5zhWn)


The above drawing shows the ravine four in three points in time, all three diagrams are in plan form, i.e. as if looking down from above. :-
BEFORE = before the deadly event, they are sat in the the den.
EVENT   = the configuration of the bodies as the den collapses in on them. This forces them down and to lie on the floor as described. Then an extremely heavy object passes along the orange path in the snow above.
MAY      = after death the bodies remain frozen in the den as shown above. However with the spring thaw the flow of water and melting of the ice above the bodies together with some buoyancy "shuffles" them downstream into the configuration with which they are discovered.

Detailed discussion of the theory
BEFORE :-
  • The ravine is full of snow (as at the end of Feb) but at the edge of the ravine the wind has created a vertical section of snow that allows it to be exploited to produce a snow cave.
  • Lyudmila is only wearing socks and uses a jacket sleeve to protect her left foot and calf from the cold wall.
  • Nicolai is on watch (wearing two watches) and sits across the entrance. He doesn't have his own jacket (which buttons up) so he borrows Lyudmila's zipped jacket. It's my preference that this act is consensual, in the Ortorten News they are linked romantically. Lyudmila sits at the back (warmer) and has two jumpers and two shirts. Maybe they huddle close.
EVENT :-
  • An extremely heavy object passes over the top of the den. This causes the den roof to collapse and the walls to deform.
  • This collapse results in forcing the four into the configuration as shown.
  • The object moves upwards in the diagram along the orange band exerting a crushing force through the snow such that although no skin tissue is bruised  the larger volumes of the chest and head as shown are crushed in the following time order.
  • Lyudmila - lying on her right side, chest fractures to right side. Her neck receives sufficient down force that it dislocates the thyroid area of the throat.  There is then a second crushing event that fractures the left side of her chest.
  • Nicolai - his head is facing Semyon with the rhs of the head against the den floor but with his chest facing the den floor. The crushing force presses the head against the den floor until the rhs of the skull and the base of the skull fracture, deforming the shape of his head. His right shoulder receives internal bruising.
  • Semyon - is lying on his back, receives a chest fracture on his rhs, right shoulder blade pressed on the den floor fractures and the rhs of his head is pressed against the den floor creating a wound.
  • Alexsander - is lying on his right side. He is pushed down with such force that his mastoid process (conical area of bone behind the right ear) connects with the den floor creating a wound. His left leg is lying on the den floor and the rolling object presses it hard against the floor creating internal bleeding on the inside of the knee. Semyon's chest protects Alexsander's knee from further crushing. Alexsander's neck receives sufficient downforce to dislocate the thyroid area. Alexsander's face is pressed down hard enough that the pathologist records an oval defect in the right cheek.

Speculation as to the nature of the objectBall lightning could do this!  kewl1
However the clear favourite has to be a heavy tracked vehicle.

Reasons :-
  • At least one pathologist has stated that Lyudmila's fractures require two events and a tracked vehicle fits this very well, as it got very close the den collapse would have created a crater. The front of the vehicle drops into the crater creating one fracture and then as the front climbs out, the rear of the vehicle also drops into the same crater creating the second.
  • The "crushing zone" seems to be very narrow, googling this most WW2 tanks for example have a track width of approx 30cm.
Further thoughtsLyudmila suffers the worst predation from rodents. This is because as the spring thaw creates a trickle of water down the ravine into the river the scent of decomposition advertises the bodies across a significant distance. When these rodents follow this scent the first body they encounter is Lyudmila's.
Now was it a complete coincidence that a tracked vehicle was using the ravine that night to ascend to pas the tree line? Or was there a radar signature above Kholat Syakhl that the military were interested in? Did the surviving three at the cedar see a vehicle ascending the hill and set off to seek rescue?

Are you serious. The Theories seem to be getting a little bit wild. What Rodents are supposed to have been involved in that predation ? And why didnt they go for other bodies ? No Military vehicles were involved in the demise of the Dyatlov Group. Ball Lightning is not known to have had similar affects against people.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Star man on March 28, 2019, 03:46:23 PM
Just another thought on the vehicle theory.  Where are the tracks?  Even though it was three weeks before they were found, the Dyatlov group ski tracks were still visible and the search and rescue team followed them until they found the tent.  Their foot prints were still preserved in the snow near the tent and on the slope.  Surely a multi tonne all terrain vehicle would have left some traces.

The crush in the den theory is interesting, but a vehicle being the cause is unlikely.

The group would have heard this vehicle coming from miles away.  Do you think they would still be in their survival den as the vehicle drives over the top of them?  Or would they have left the den and run towards the vehicle shouting ------" hay we're here help us". Even if the people in the vehicle caused them to flee the tent, they would still move away from the vehicle to a place where they couldn't run them over.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 28, 2019, 04:13:02 PM

Are you serious. The Theories seem to be getting a little bit wild. What Rodents are supposed to have been involved in that predation ? And why didnt they go for other bodies ? No Military vehicles were involved in the demise of the Dyatlov Group. Ball Lightning is not known to have had similar affects against people.
Which theory is wild? The crushed under the snow theory or the rodent theory? If they died under the snow what else would the predation be?
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 28, 2019, 04:18:13 PM
Just another thought on the vehicle theory.  Where are the tracks?  Even though it was three weeks before they were found, the Dyatlov group ski tracks were still visible and the search and rescue team followed them until they found the tent.  Their foot prints were still preserved in the snow near the tent and on the slope.  Surely a multi tonne all terrain vehicle would have left some traces.The vehicle theory needs a coverup afterwards.


The crush in the den theory is interesting, but a vehicle being the cause is unlikely.

The group would have heard this vehicle coming from miles away.  Do you think they would still be in their survival den as the vehicle drives over the top of them?  Or would they have left the den and run towards the vehicle shouting ------" hay we're here help us". Even if the people in the vehicle caused them to flee the tent, they would still move away from the vehicle to a place where they couldn't run them over.Hearing something approaching perhaps but recognising it as a vehicle under the snow, less likely. Maybe they made the wrong choice.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 28, 2019, 07:41:51 PM
If they were originally injured/died in the 'den'.....  how did the bodies get 'washed/pushed' so far away from said den without having also washed/pushed the den floor and the articles of clothing upon it that they were presumably sitting on?
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: cennetkusu on March 28, 2019, 09:14:00 PM
It's ridiculous. First of all, they wanted to make a four in the river bed. Because the river bed had blown ice. And his feet were bare. And there was Ludmina and Semyon ahead. So they sat down and settled in. But there was an attack just like the tent here. Just like in the tent .... So no difference. They tried to run away again. But this time quickly ... But they could not get far away from. They captured. The most far away was Ludmina. 'Cause he was in your mouth. Then Semyon. Because he was right by the Ludminas. This attacker must be very fast, this quartet could only walk a few feet away !!! The most reaction was given by Ludmina and Semyon ... So they had the most damage ... While Lumina was dying, she was supine. Only because the attacker can take his eyes and his language. Then he must have turned around to die. Kolevatov has turned around. So the offensive creature attacked them from behind. And the first Kolevatova coincided. That's why Kolevatov's back is facing the land. So the impact of the attacker turned him towards Nikolaya ... And as he hugs him ........
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: cennetkusu on March 28, 2019, 09:16:59 PM
In other words, an attack was carried out in the cave like in a tent ... But this attack was intended to kill. That's why they ran away. But they were all caught in a very short time.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 29, 2019, 12:26:28 AM
Just another thought on the vehicle theory.  Where are the tracks?

If we combine this theory with the murder theory, then it becomes obvious why were not found any tracks of any vehicle. Only a stupid murderer would not cover his tracks. This applies to all the murder theories also, so PLEASE, stop asking about the tracks left in the snow by the criminals (army/secret services/mansi/khanti etc).
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 29, 2019, 05:03:05 AM
If they were originally injured/died in the 'den'.....  how did the bodies get 'washed/pushed' so far away from said den without having also washed/pushed the den floor and the articles of clothing upon it that they were presumably sitting on?
Excellent question.
First the den walls deforming in the event could have pushed the four say 0.5m this way or that.

Then, just as glaciers typically travel 1 metre per day the ravine snow will obey gravity and flow to a degree. Any displacement of the top layer filled with fresh snow adding new mass to continue the action. There are two gradients, from the side of the ravine to the centre of the stream and downstream to the river. The first gradient will be the key one. Once they're pushed into the stream the spring thaw will do the rest. The movement will be helped by the stream eroding the snow next to it weakening it and encouraging the traverse flow.

There's a question mark over how far they were found from the den. The case files say 6m but Askinadzi states in a recent interview they were just an arms length from the den. Guess who one of the signatures was on the case file!?  kewl1
Taking the more difficult case i think it's quite plausible that they traveled 6m in 3 months. Much would depend on the actual gradients.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 29, 2019, 05:50:31 AM
Much would depend on the actual gradients.
@Loose}{Cannon - i have a memory of someone posting detailed photos of the ravine in the summer (including best guesses to locations) but can't find them on the site? They would be very useful in arguing whether the gradients would support my last post.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 29, 2019, 05:57:44 AM
If they were sitting/laying on said surface of twigs and clothing, then they were at the same depth/layer. 

I don't buy it.  Everything including the floor would have moved.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 29, 2019, 06:50:52 AM
If they were sitting/laying on said surface of twigs and clothing, then they were at the same depth/layer. 

I don't buy it.  Everything including the floor would have moved.

Well there is a gradient :-

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-347.jpg)

Some of the photos of the den are clearly "reconstructed". But if this photo is "as originally discovered" then i think it supports my case as the seats have clearly been flattened and pushed towards the right. The argument would be that the bodies would offer much more resistance and travel right much further (i'm assuming the stream is to the right).

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-03.jpg)


Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 29, 2019, 07:06:12 AM
I'm arguing for "snow creep" and "snow glide" but transversely across the ravine's gradient which will be amplified by the stream removing compacted snow at the bottom.
http://www.risknet-alcotra.org/rna/allegati/holler-1_641.pdf
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 29, 2019, 08:12:12 AM
There's a question mark over how far they were found from the den. The case files say 6m but Askinadzi states in a recent interview they were just an arms length from the den. Guess who one of the signatures was on the case file!?

Here's the ravine location in correlation with the den. Note that another hole exists - the one with the question mark on it (which is not documented in the case files?).
(https://i.ibb.co/L55gNwT/rav.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9tt4ZXx)
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 29, 2019, 08:47:26 AM
There's a question mark over how far they were found from the den. The case files say 6m but Askinadzi states in a recent interview they were just an arms length from the den. Guess who one of the signatures was on the case file!?

Here's the ravine location in correlation with the den. Note that another hole exists - the one with the question mark on it (which is not documented in the case files?).
(https://i.ibb.co/L55gNwT/rav.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9tt4ZXx)

I'd have to disagree, your "ravine" is the den and your "den" is of the 1metre layer they had to remove before they could get the poles to reach the bottom of the ravine. The case files talk of a depth of 4-4.5m.
But it's a great photo for showing the width of the ravine and that the bodies didn't have to travel transversely very far to be in the stream.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 29, 2019, 09:12:27 AM
To me it seems that ravine is in the front, having one side without snow. See also this picture:
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-347.jpg)

The den has all the sides surrounded by snow:
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-01.jpg)
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Clacon on March 29, 2019, 10:59:43 AM
Can someone draw the orientation of the ravine and den? How were they situated in relation to each other?

Because if the den is perpendicular to the ravine, they would have had to have been ejected out of the den into the ravine somehow, right? If they had been crushed inside the den, how would they have moved forward and then sideways down the ravine (at a right angle)?

Nigel - well done on thinking outside the box! :)))
Don't you think perhaps if this was the case then the twigs/branches on the ground inside the den would have been crushed to smithereens?? How are they intact?

The theory that they fell into the ravine from above as they were walking/running along because the running water underneath created a weak spot (from below) makes the most sense to me....although the fact that three bodies are lying perpendicular to the ravine is strange - unless they were walking perpendicularily to the ravine instead of along and above it, hit the weakspot and fell.
(APOLOGIES - Thinking and typing out loud here....)
If the den is on the same ground level as the ravine, though - I don't think this one works.

About the critters eating eyeballs and a tongue....I was reading previous forum posts and have come to believe that if they were buried under snow and their faces were in running water after the thaw, then the flesh and eyeballs were consumed by microbes in the water - I think the term was "microbial activity". All sorts of weird things happen to tissue when it is submerged in water. Dubinina's mouth was open I suppose, which is why her tongue was missing. Also she seemed to have her whole head submerged and in the flow of water, while the others lay with the backs of their heads facing the flow.
Although....I read somewhere the muscle floor anchoring Dubinina's tongue was ripped out - in the autopsy it vaguely only says her tongue was missing - so if the former is true, then it was a little critter that ripped it out with some force...if the tongue was just gone with no muscle floor with it - then either she but her own tongue off or it was microbial activity.
About the eyeballs - there is evidence in the autopsies of missing tissue along the brow bones which maybe could account for animal activity.....or microbial activity since I think little teeth or beaks may have left  traces in the bone (scratches)??
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 29, 2019, 11:18:21 AM
To me it seems that ravine is in the front, having one side without snow. See also this picture:
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-347.jpg)

The den has all the sides surrounded by snow:
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-01.jpg)
My perspective is, there are three men standing the den? The rest of the photo is of the ravine?
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 29, 2019, 11:30:14 AM
The three men appear yo be standing where the bodies were found.  The 'den' is the 4 sided hole behind them. 
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 29, 2019, 11:32:38 AM
@ Nigel Evans - You are right, the entire "valley" is the ravine, but when I wrote "ravine" I was referring specifically to the place where the bodies were found in the water.
So the three men are standing in the place they've found the four bodies.
In the back is the hole where they've found the bed of small trees/clothes(I've called this hole "den").
@ Loose}{Cannon , it seems that I was typing slower than you :)

Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 29, 2019, 11:34:58 AM
Where the guy is squatting is where the bodies were drug out to.    In this pic, the bodies and where the three men were standing is to the right. 

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-21.jpg)
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 29, 2019, 11:36:13 AM
Can someone draw the orientation of the ravine and den? How were they situated in relation to each other?This guy has attempted this and he's a bit closer to the DP than me :) - https://dyatlovpass.com/vasilii-zyadik (https://dyatlovpass.com/vasilii-zyadik)But i think he's placed the den on the wrong side of the stream and NTB is facing the other way.

Because if the den is perpendicular to the ravine, they would have had to have been ejected out of the den into the ravine somehow, right? If they had been crushed inside the den, how would they have moved forward and then sideways down the ravine (at a right angle)?Haven't i answered this in posts #25 thru #29?

Nigel - well done on thinking outside the box! :)))I take a bow  thanky1

Don't you think perhaps if this was the case then the twigs/branches on the ground inside the den would have been crushed to smithereens?? How are they intact?But rib cages are even more fragile? The "crushing" was only 30cm wide, the den floor 1 sq metre?

The theory that they fell into the ravine from above as they were walking/running along because the running water underneath created a weak spot (from below) makes the most sense to me....although the fact that three bodies are lying perpendicular to the ravine is strange - unless they were walking perpendicularily to the ravine instead of along and above it, hit the weakspot and fell.
(APOLOGIES - Thinking and typing out loud here....)
If the den is on the same ground level as the ravine, though - I don't think this one works.No it doesn't work, the den is in the ravine.

About the critters eating eyeballs and a tongue....I was reading previous forum posts and have come to believe that if they were buried under snow and their faces were in running water after the thaw, then the flesh and eyeballs were consumed by microbes in the water - I think the term was "microbial activity". All sorts of weird things happen to tissue when it is submerged in water. Dubinina's mouth was open I suppose, which is why her tongue was missing. Also she seemed to have her whole head submerged and in the flow of water, while the others lay with the backs of their heads facing the flow.
Although....I read somewhere the muscle floor anchoring Dubinina's tongue was ripped out - in the autopsy it vaguely only says her tongue was missing - so if the former is true, then it was a little critter that ripped it out with some force...if the tongue was just gone with no muscle floor with it - then either she but her own tongue off or it was microbial activity.
About the eyeballs - there is evidence in the autopsies of missing tissue along the brow bones which maybe could account for animal activity.....or microbial activity since I think little teeth or beaks may have left  traces in the bone (scratches)??Some posters have complained about the lack of detail wrt the tongue. The thyroid area had unusual mobility (crushing?) so it's plausible perhaps that the whole tongue could easily detach. But really a question for medical experts.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 29, 2019, 11:53:54 AM
The thyroid area had unusual mobility (crushing?) so it's plausible perhaps that the whole tongue could easily detach.

Quote
The hyoid bone fracture is a very rare fracture of the hyoid bone, accounting for 0.002% of all fractures in humans. It is commonly associated with strangulation and rarely occurs in isolation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyoid_bone_fracture
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 29, 2019, 12:07:27 PM
Where does it state the hyoid bone was fractured?
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 29, 2019, 12:49:53 PM
No one had a fractured hyoid bone.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 29, 2019, 01:07:12 PM
My mistake, it was thyrohyal of "extraordinary mobility" https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743)

Does this "extraordinary mobility" means fracture?

Quote
Medical Definition of thyrohyal
: the larger and more lateral of the two lateral projections on each side of the human hyoid bone
— called also greater cornu
https://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/thyrohyal (https://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/thyrohyal)


(https://prohealthsys.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Gray342-343.jpg)
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 29, 2019, 02:37:52 PM
No...   it had mobility.  What would you expect from a rotten corps?
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on March 29, 2019, 03:17:58 PM

Are you serious. The Theories seem to be getting a little bit wild. What Rodents are supposed to have been involved in that predation ? And why didnt they go for other bodies ? No Military vehicles were involved in the demise of the Dyatlov Group. Ball Lightning is not known to have had similar affects against people.
Which theory is wild? The crushed under the snow theory or the rodent theory? If they died under the snow what else would the predation be?

If it had have been anywhere else of a more shall we say flat landscape and maybe a bit nearer to one of the Soviet Military Camps, I would have said yes a real possibility that such Military vehicles could be operating. But then I would say if it was an accident then why didnt those Military vehicles stop and assist the injured  !  ?  And of course such big vehicles would leave TRACKS and probably plenty of OIL traces. This is a wild Theory is it not. And also crushed under snow sounds a bit iffy. Rodents, I have just Posted something else where about Rodents being responsible for some damage to bodies. Why didnt the Rodents eat other body parts and other members of the Dyatlov group.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on March 29, 2019, 03:23:20 PM
If they were sitting/laying on said surface of twigs and clothing, then they were at the same depth/layer. 

I don't buy it.  Everything including the floor would have moved.

Well there is a gradient :-

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-347.jpg)

Some of the photos of the den are clearly "reconstructed". But if this photo is "as originally discovered" then i think it supports my case as the seats have clearly been flattened and pushed towards the right. The argument would be that the bodies would offer much more resistance and travel right much further (i'm assuming the stream is to the right).

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-03.jpg)

Not much of a Den is it. If in deed it was a Den  !  ? And it looks like it has been like that for many months ie no movement. 
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on March 29, 2019, 03:29:18 PM
I'm arguing for "snow creep" and "snow glide" but transversely across the ravine's gradient which will be amplified by the stream removing compacted snow at the bottom.
http://www.risknet-alcotra.org/rna/allegati/holler-1_641.pdf

Another link to a scientific paper that most people wont get their head around or have time to learn. And I notice it uses a massive area of Mountain slope to do the analysis, nothing like the Ravine that we are concerned with  !  ? 
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on March 29, 2019, 03:32:50 PM
There's a question mark over how far they were found from the den. The case files say 6m but Askinadzi states in a recent interview they were just an arms length from the den. Guess who one of the signatures was on the case file!?

Here's the ravine location in correlation with the den. Note that another hole exists - the one with the question mark on it (which is not documented in the case files?).
(https://i.ibb.co/L55gNwT/rav.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9tt4ZXx)

This is another photo that shows just what an insignificant physical feature the so called Ravine is. And the so called Den is just as minor a physical feature. Ive seen bigger physical features in Sussex, England and not called Ravines. 
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on March 29, 2019, 03:41:47 PM
No one had a fractured hyoid bone.


And I quote you ; ''Her neck receives sufficient down force that it dislocates the thyroid area of the throat.'' But if there was such force involved why no BROKEN BONES, why no broken neck etc.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 29, 2019, 03:50:49 PM
No...   it had mobility.  What would you expect from a rotten corps?
Well, it is written "extraordinary" mobility. If it was "ordinary" mobility then it would not be in the report I think.

p.s. It seems that Russians have an affinity to hyoid bone and suspect deaths : https://en.crimerussia.com/gromkie-dela/us-expert-on-russian-former-press-minister-death-i-ve-never-seen-a-fractured-hyoid-bone-on-someone-w/ (https://en.crimerussia.com/gromkie-dela/us-expert-on-russian-former-press-minister-death-i-ve-never-seen-a-fractured-hyoid-bone-on-someone-w/)
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 29, 2019, 06:32:18 PM
Quote
Why didnt the Rodents eat other body parts and other members of the Dyatlov group.

Eyeballs and tongue are easy pickings as apposed to frozen skin and bone.  You also forget that some body parts of certain victims were likely SUBMERGED in water and otherwise unreachable.   
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 30, 2019, 07:16:40 AM
No one had a fractured hyoid bone.


And I quote you ; ''Her neck receives sufficient down force that it dislocates the thyroid area of the throat.'' But if there was such force involved why no BROKEN BONES, why no broken neck etc.
The neck area of the spine is protected by strong muscle groups but the throat isn't would be my answer.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 30, 2019, 07:19:55 AM
Quote
Why didnt the Rodents eat other body parts and other members of the Dyatlov group.

Eyeballs and tongue are easy pickings as apposed to frozen skin and bone.  You also forget that some body parts of certain victims were likely SUBMERGED in water and otherwise unreachable.
Also there might have been a limited window of time for easy "pickings", once the stream developed some flow the rodents might have been unable to reach the bodies without being swept downstream.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 30, 2019, 07:22:43 AM


This is another photo that shows just what an insignificant physical feature the so called Ravine is. And the so called Den is just as minor a physical feature. Ive seen bigger physical features in Sussex, England and not called Ravines.
Yes it's just a few metres deep. "Ravine" is to somewhat overstate it, but it's the label that everyone understands.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on March 30, 2019, 01:56:18 PM
No...   it had mobility.  What would you expect from a rotten corps?
Well, it is written "extraordinary" mobility. If it was "ordinary" mobility then it would not be in the report I think.

p.s. It seems that Russians have an affinity to hyoid bone and suspect deaths : https://en.crimerussia.com/gromkie-dela/us-expert-on-russian-former-press-minister-death-i-ve-never-seen-a-fractured-hyoid-bone-on-someone-w/ (https://en.crimerussia.com/gromkie-dela/us-expert-on-russian-former-press-minister-death-i-ve-never-seen-a-fractured-hyoid-bone-on-someone-w/)


Well found. An interesting article thats useful for this forum. One of My chief areas of suspicion is around the subject of Dubinina's Hyoid Bone. Apparently its one of the toughest bones in the Human body.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on March 30, 2019, 01:59:41 PM
Quote
Why didnt the Rodents eat other body parts and other members of the Dyatlov group.

Eyeballs and tongue are easy pickings as apposed to frozen skin and bone.  You also forget that some body parts of certain victims were likely SUBMERGED in water and otherwise unreachable.

But there were 9 bodies. They werent all submerged in water or covered over. And what type of Rodent are we talking about, one that swims under water to eat its prey  !  ?
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on March 30, 2019, 02:02:53 PM
No one had a fractured hyoid bone.


And I quote you ; ''Her neck receives sufficient down force that it dislocates the thyroid area of the throat.'' But if there was such force involved why no BROKEN BONES, why no broken neck etc.
The neck area of the spine is protected by strong muscle groups but the throat isn't would be my answer.

So you mean a DOWNFORCE that is concentrated on the throat and presumably the Chest as well. Sounds feasible. But not by snow. And then again how did the Tongue go missing  !  ?
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on March 30, 2019, 02:05:01 PM
Quote
Why didnt the Rodents eat other body parts and other members of the Dyatlov group.

Eyeballs and tongue are easy pickings as apposed to frozen skin and bone.  You also forget that some body parts of certain victims were likely SUBMERGED in water and otherwise unreachable.
Also there might have been a limited window of time for easy "pickings", once the stream developed some flow the rodents might have been unable to reach the bodies without being swept downstream.

Yes and what type of rodent swims under water to eat its prey.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on March 30, 2019, 02:10:52 PM


This is another photo that shows just what an insignificant physical feature the so called Ravine is. And the so called Den is just as minor a physical feature. Ive seen bigger physical features in Sussex, England and not called Ravines.
Yes it's just a few metres deep. "Ravine" is to somewhat overstate it, but it's the label that everyone understands.

Yes I guess so. Gulley would have been a better description, and its less dramatic sounding. In fact its usual, in order of size etc,  to have a GULLEY then a RAVINE then a CANYON. All those features can have running water or not as the case may be.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 30, 2019, 03:17:05 PM
Just to add to the theory, it would be reasonable that if the other three had heard the vehicle going up the ravine they would investigate, realise the den had collapsed and try and dig out their friends. From their avalanche knowledge they would know that under the snow you can breathe for minutes but CO2 poisoning sets in quickly. So this could explain the hand injuries and why none of the ravine four demonstrated signs of asphyxiation.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Star man on March 30, 2019, 05:04:08 PM
I think the injuries are more easily explained by a fall from height.  Lyuda looks like she has fallen flat on her front, whilst not conscious.  Her chest is smashed, but her nose cartilage is also smashed, and the force on the top of the rib cage and throat could explain the hyoid bone.  It seems more likely than a vehicle driving over them.

Also rodents do tent to be more prevalent near to water sources like streams and rivers, so you would expect more rodent activity in the ravine than on the slope.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 31, 2019, 04:02:21 AM
I think the injuries are more easily explained by a fall from height.  Lyuda looks like she has fallen flat on her front, whilst not conscious.  Her chest is smashed, but her nose cartilage is also smashed, and the force on the top of the rib cage and throat could explain the hyoid bone.  It seems more likely than a vehicle driving over them.

Also rodents do tent to be more prevalent near to water sources like streams and rivers, so you would expect more rodent activity in the ravine than on the slope.

Regards

Star man
Lyudmila's nose is to close to Semyon's foot for that to be an objection to the theory.
That double fracture is saying something imo.

Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 01, 2019, 05:53:54 AM
To continue the narrative :-
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Clacon on April 01, 2019, 08:17:41 AM
Wouldn't the vehicle have been going in the other direction, away from where the 3 were found? We just don't know in what direction it would have been travelling….if in fact there was a vehicle and it was obviously going faster than 3 dying hikers, so why would they have attempted to chase after it?? I think they probably knew they wouldn't be able to catch up to it.

I really believe they were going back to the tent or the storage hut...isn't that more in line with the orientation of their bodies?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY7oDKLJ4JE
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 01, 2019, 08:37:26 AM
Wouldn't the vehicle have been going in the other direction, away from where the 3 were found? We just don't know in what direction it would have been travelling….if in fact there was a vehicle and it was obviously going faster than 3 dying hikers, so why would they have attempted to chase after it?? I think they probably knew they wouldn't be able to catch up to it.Perhaps it had stopped near the top, to investigate the lights (as photographed by Semyon?) (perhaps the tent?) and that was the purpose of it's mission?

I really believe they were going back to the tent or the storage hut...isn't that more in line with the orientation of their bodies?Yes Rustem and Zinaida were heading for the tent. The labaz was almost in the opposite direction. From memory Igor inconclusively on his back pointing downhill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY7oDKLJ4JE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY7oDKLJ4JE)
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Clacon on April 01, 2019, 09:01:37 AM
Okay so, that 3D animation video is incorrect? B/c it shows Igor's body lying in the same orientation as Zina and Rustem - facing tent with legs towards Cedar. Is that what you're saying?

Please see my diagram - I know the labaz is way further a distance than the tent, but it could be possible they were headed there? Or have I got it wrong?
(https://i.ibb.co/yXvnWqG/20190401-115428.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PNXZwg3)
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 01, 2019, 09:32:59 AM
Okay so, that 3D animation video is incorrect? B/c it shows Igor's body lying in the same orientation as Zina and Rustem - facing tent with legs towards Cedar. Is that what you're saying?

Please see my diagram - I know the labaz is way further a distance than the tent, but it could be possible they were headed there? Or have I got it wrong?
(https://i.ibb.co/yXvnWqG/20190401-115428.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PNXZwg3)
Looks good, my error!  loco1 https://dyatlovpass.com/maps

 
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 01, 2019, 10:43:55 AM
1.In your picture of arrangement bodies at reception traumas there it is rational component. But it was in other place and under other circumstances.  If speak about them will shortly it not turn out, and on very detailed description I cannot find time enough. But I will try make it.
2. I have not time read and answer much texts, therefore I want ask managers and moderators make the theme, for example, with made the name "Questions to WAB". I will not interfere to your conversations (though you say much that is not combined in any way by that is on this place and-or conditions which there are available), and I will be as much as possible in detail and quickly (whenever possible) them answer. I have not time look through considerable quantity that.
Certainly it is necessary do it, if all of you are interested receive from me information from visiting and analysis practice particularly that district where all has occurred.

For now I will shortly comment on that you have told …



 (https://i.ibb.co/pP8hGFP/IMG-20190327-212302.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1n5zhWn)


The above drawing shows the ravine four in three points in time, all three diagrams are in plan form, i.e. as if looking down from above. :-
BEFORE = before the deadly event, they are sat in the the den.
EVENT   = the configuration of the bodies as the den collapses in on them. This forces them down and to lie on the floor as described. Then an extremely heavy object passes along the orange path in the snow above.
MAY      = after death the bodies remain frozen in the den as shown above. However with the spring thaw the flow of water and melting of the ice above the bodies together with some buoyancy "shuffles" them downstream into the configuration with which they are discovered.

Detailed discussion of the theory


O ` K. Let's look, what from this is on the place of events?



BEFORE :-
  • The ravine is full of snow (as at the end of Feb) but at the edge of the ravine the wind has created a vertical section of snow that allows it to be exploited to produce a snow cave.

Even in the most snow year in March (for example, this year which was such), was not so much snow. Here 3 photos on which it is visible,
1.How many snow happens in March when it is lot of snow;

(https://d.radikal.ru/d14/1904/e7/d631fb38653ct.jpg) (https://d.radikal.ru/d14/1904/e7/d631fb38653c.jpg)

It is case when Shura has failed to the bottom stream completely.
2.What pillow of snow which lies on the brink of ravine

(https://a.radikal.ru/a43/1904/fb/c08318429836t.jpg) (https://a.radikal.ru/a43/1904/fb/c08318429836.jpg)

I want pay attention that the length of a measuring stick is equal 1,5 m (or 5 foots).
3.It is possible whether dig out cave when it is a lot of snow on this place?

(https://d.radikal.ru/d18/1904/19/6f77c739b9fct.jpg) (https://d.radikal.ru/d18/1904/19/6f77c739b9fc.jpg)

On this basis let everyone solves itself. I will add: this time when snow in 2 or 3 time more than was in 1959, March. We measured it in several points as on photos of searches which we have. The sample of cave which we have dug out (by means of good avalanche shovel!) was in the size 1,2 m  (in depth) on 0,8 m (in height and width). I want pay attention that we dug in parallel slope (after we have made cut of gentle layer) because perpendicularly dig it was useless, because there would be no the necessary length of cave. And that below there is crack which will not give possibility completely keep heat in cave.
Such work cannot be made by hands (without good tools - we have rummaged in total amount 4 … 5 cubic metrs of snow by avalanche shovel and by measuring lath - it had the sizes - 1500 mm x 100 mm х 40 mm). Therefore all reasonings on possibility make cave and hide in it have no sense. As well as conversations about “collapses of the arch of cave and be traumatised thus” because the quantity of snow obviously is not enough for this purpose even if it is in 2 or 3 times more than were in 1959.

   
  • Lyudmila is only wearing socks and uses a jacket sleeve to protect her left foot and calf from the cold wall.
  • Nicolai is on watch (wearing two watches) and sits across the entrance. He doesn't have his own jacket (which buttons up) so he borrows Lyudmila's zipped jacket. It's my preference that this act is consensual, in the Ortorten News they are linked romantically. Lyudmila sits at the back (warmer) and has two jumpers and two shirts. Maybe they huddle close.

To my much regret it all is called as imaginations which correspond events very little:
1.”Nikolay on watch (carries two hours)” (c) is concerns that was in tent (their camp above slope). It`s same condition remains to bottom site where them have be found. He be dressed:
“A canvas green fur jacket on sheepskin on fastener lightning, with two unprofitable pockets” (c) it is the medical certificate from mortuary from Boris Vozrozhdenny. It is its own jacket, which it has purchase on building work, where worked as "construction superintendent" (it is the chief of site of building) after his finish building faculty UPI. The canvas is rough cotton fabric. Luda had jacket from thin cotton fabric, apparently in this photo:

(https://a.radikal.ru/a09/1903/f9/2c18aa51e477t.jpg) (https://a.radikal.ru/a09/1903/f9/2c18aa51e477.jpg)

On Luda provide the storm jacket - as easy canvas, and under it warm jacket with the top fabric from thin cotton fabric is dressed. The storm jacket has no lining of any type. It was clasped on buttons and had “no type fastener _ zipper _”.
Because of that those who spoke: “the jacket of Luda is on Nikolay” did not estimate clothes which Luda on this travel owned.
Therefore you are not right, when speak about his clothes.


[/list]
EVENT :-
  • An extremely heavy object passes over the top of the den. This causes the den roof to collapse and the walls to deform.
  • This collapse results in forcing the four into the configuration as shown.
  • The object moves upwards in the diagram along the orange band exerting a crushing force through the snow such that although no skin tissue is bruised  the larger volumes of the chest and head as shown are crushed in the following time order.
  • Lyudmila - lying on her right side, chest fractures to right side. Her neck receives sufficient down force that it dislocates the thyroid area of the throat.  There is then a second crushing event that fractures the left side of her chest.
  • Nicolai - his head is facing Semyon with the rhs of the head against the den floor but with his chest facing the den floor. The crushing force presses the head against the den floor until the rhs of the skull and the base of the skull fracture, deforming the shape of his head. His right shoulder receives internal bruising.
  • Semyon - is lying on his back, receives a chest fracture on his rhs, right shoulder blade pressed on the den floor fractures and the rhs of his head is pressed against the den floor creating a wound.
  • Alexsander - is lying on his right side. He is pushed down with such force that his mastoid process (conical area of bone behind the right ear) connects with the den floor creating a wound. His left leg is lying on the den floor and the rolling object presses it hard against the floor creating internal bleeding on the inside of the knee. Semyon's chest protects Alexsander's knee from further crushing. Alexsander's neck receives sufficient downforce to dislocate the thyroid area. Alexsander's face is pressed down hard enough that the pathologist records an oval defect in the right cheek.

As there is no event when “the object moves on …” because I have shown that they could not dig out anything and as Nikolay could not have such trauma anywhere, except sticking out stones on slope (I have written it earlier), this description of events means is wrong.
I will tell about vehicle: no wheel or caterpillar transport technics can reach in the winter to place where Dyatlov group because there depth of snow around makes 1 metre and more was lost. In 1959 there at all was not roads on distance more than 90 km (or 55 miles), and even now there is no constant clearing is expensive more close than the same distance. Even now there it is possible get only by snowmobile or on skis. But even the snowmobile in January and the beginning of February very often cannot pass many places to lifting, because there is abrupt slope and friable snow. In 1959 snowmobile yet was not.
Four in ravine never lay on den because had not time reach there because three were traumatised earlier, and carry wounded men could only Kolevatov – he is one did not have traumas. Other variant is logically excluded.

Speculation as to the nature of the objectBall lightning could do this!  kewl1
However the clear favourite has to be a heavy tracked vehicle.

Reasons :-
  • At least one pathologist has stated that Lyudmila's fractures require two events and a tracked vehicle fits this very well, as it got very close the den collapse would have created a crater. The front of the vehicle drops into the crater creating one fracture and then as the front climbs out, the rear of the vehicle also drops into the same crater creating the second.
  • The "crushing zone" seems to be very narrow, googling this most WW2 tanks for example have a track width of approx 30cm.
Further thoughtsLyudmila suffers the worst predation from rodents. This is because as the spring thaw creates a trickle of water down the ravine into the river the scent of decomposition advertises the bodies across a significant distance. When these rodents follow this scent the first body they encounter is Lyudmila's.

Rodents did not eat Luda because they would leave traces of teeth. All his (and others man) damages are put by thawed snow. I already wrote:
1.Thawed snow has stream pressure (mechanical loading);
2. Thawed snow has very big concentration of the dissolved oxygen (chemical loading);
3.In thawed snow was contains microflora and microfauna (microorganisms) - (biological loading);
To it is necessary add that the defrozen corpse very quickly decays, because at frost water of tissue  extends and breaks durability communications between separate fragments of biological tissue.
Rodents very much do not love and are afraid appear in water, especially, when it flows in the limited space - channels of thawing of snow in snow layer. All these bodies have been found out under continuous snow, and have been then dug out. Water washed them on the limited channels, therefore the part of sites of bodies has been damaged (there where there was water access), and the part had no damages (there where they were completely in snow which has not thawed).
Traumas which they have received during lifetime, have been made in other place, but is very close from that place where them have found. Otherwise they could not appear in this place all together. Anybody from those three who had traumas could not move independently.


Now was it a complete coincidence that a tracked vehicle was using the ravine that night to ascend to pas the tree line? Or was there a radar signature above Kholat Syakhl that the military were interested in? Did the surviving three at the cedar see a vehicle ascending the hill and set off to seek rescue?

Presence of any car on Holatchahle in the winter is nonsense even now. In 1959 it is nonsense in degree square, if it is not cubed degrees.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on April 01, 2019, 12:11:10 PM
Just to add to the theory, it would be reasonable that if the other three had heard the vehicle going up the ravine they would investigate, realise the den had collapsed and try and dig out their friends. From their avalanche knowledge they would know that under the snow you can breathe for minutes but CO2 poisoning sets in quickly. So this could explain the hand injuries and why none of the ravine four demonstrated signs of asphyxiation.

Wouldnt there be a lot of traces of such Military Vehicles though ie OIL etc etc.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on April 01, 2019, 12:12:52 PM
I think the injuries are more easily explained by a fall from height.  Lyuda looks like she has fallen flat on her front, whilst not conscious.  Her chest is smashed, but her nose cartilage is also smashed, and the force on the top of the rib cage and throat could explain the hyoid bone.  It seems more likely than a vehicle driving over them.

Also rodents do tent to be more prevalent near to water sources like streams and rivers, so you would expect more rodent activity in the ravine than on the slope.

Regards

Star man

Do you have any suggestions for the type of Rodents likely to be found at the water source  !  ?
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on April 01, 2019, 12:16:19 PM
To continue the narrative :-
  • Vehicle crushes den occupants.
  • Remaining three attempt rescue. This results in hand injuries but allows the ravine four to breathe.
  • Realising that the extent of the injuries precludes dragging the victims out they have to get help from the vehicle which has now passed the tree line and is ascending the hill. It will have a radio.
  • So they urgently set off.
  • It is now absolutely imperative that they reach that vehicle both for their comrades and for their own safety, if people can't keep up they have to be left behind.
  • Zinaida is the last but cannot handle the ascent (she seems to have been found at the foot of the steepest section). Nitric acid inhalation would explain this.


Cant the driver of said Military Vehicle see where they are driving  ! ? And do you have a precise type of Military Vehicle involved.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Clacon on April 01, 2019, 12:18:32 PM
"Wouldnt there be a lot of traces of such Military Vehicles though ie OIL etc etc."

And also compacted snow??
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Star man on April 01, 2019, 03:39:53 PM
WAB has added some interesting information.  Particularly on the ability of the group to build a snow den, which seems much more unlikely.  Also, the accelerated decay and the lack of rodent teeth marks is a good point.

So it is unlikely that they built a snow den, and the missing tissue is more likely to be as a result of the thaw and accelerted decay.  I tend to agree with this.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 02, 2019, 01:05:31 AM
Many thanks for the replies. I'm very busy today so will have to defer proper replies until tomorrow.

You don't need deep snow to build a snow cave - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXp_KhfluD0
But a shovel does seem important!  kewl1
One of the few facts wrt the DPI is the existence of the den floor. So unless it is a fabrication to fool everyone, there really was a den and they really were found dead nearby, near enough to support a theory that they died in it.

Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Star man on April 02, 2019, 01:52:07 AM
The bed made of branches may have simply been that.  A bed to keep the injured off the cold ground.  Not necessarily a bed inside a den.

That then leads to the question why make a bed in the ravine when there is a fire only 75m away?

Maybe,  those injured were simply looking for fire wood and fell injuring themselves.  After that it was not possible to move them out of the ravine and back to the fire, so they made a bed in the ravine.  They did not have time to make another fire there because within 30 mins those injured were dead or close to death.  So they didn't have time to make a fire.  When I say they, it may have just been Kolevatov.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 02, 2019, 04:58:27 AM
1.In your picture of arrangement bodies at reception traumas there it is rational component. But it was in other place and under other circumstances.  If speak about them will shortly it not turn out, and on very detailed description I cannot find time enough. But I will try make it.
2. I have not time read and answer much texts, therefore I want ask managers and moderators make the theme, for example, with made the name "Questions to WAB". I will not interfere to your conversations (though you say much that is not combined in any way by that is on this place and-or conditions which there are available), and I will be as much as possible in detail and quickly (whenever possible) them answer. I have not time look through considerable quantity that.
Certainly it is necessary do it, if all of you are interested receive from me information from visiting and analysis practice particularly that district where all has occurred.

For now I will shortly comment on that you have told …



 (https://i.ibb.co/pP8hGFP/IMG-20190327-212302.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1n5zhWn)


The above drawing shows the ravine four in three points in time, all three diagrams are in plan form, i.e. as if looking down from above. :-
BEFORE = before the deadly event, they are sat in the the den.
EVENT   = the configuration of the bodies as the den collapses in on them. This forces them down and to lie on the floor as described. Then an extremely heavy object passes along the orange path in the snow above.
MAY      = after death the bodies remain frozen in the den as shown above. However with the spring thaw the flow of water and melting of the ice above the bodies together with some buoyancy "shuffles" them downstream into the configuration with which they are discovered.

Detailed discussion of the theory


O ` K. Let's look, what from this is on the place of events?



BEFORE :-
  • The ravine is full of snow (as at the end of Feb) but at the edge of the ravine the wind has created a vertical section of snow that allows it to be exploited to produce a snow cave.

Even in the most snow year in March (for example, this year which was such), was not so much snow. Here 3 photos on which it is visible,
1.How many snow happens in March when it is lot of snow;

(https://d.radikal.ru/d14/1904/e7/d631fb38653ct.jpg) (https://d.radikal.ru/d14/1904/e7/d631fb38653c.jpg)

It is case when Shura has failed to the bottom stream completely.
2.What pillow of snow which lies on the brink of ravine

(https://a.radikal.ru/a43/1904/fb/c08318429836t.jpg) (https://a.radikal.ru/a43/1904/fb/c08318429836.jpg)

I want pay attention that the length of a measuring stick is equal 1,5 m (or 5 foots).
3.It is possible whether dig out cave when it is a lot of snow on this place?

(https://d.radikal.ru/d18/1904/19/6f77c739b9fct.jpg) (https://d.radikal.ru/d18/1904/19/6f77c739b9fc.jpg)

On this basis let everyone solves itself. I will add: this time when snow in 2 or 3 time more than was in 1959, March. We measured it in several points as on photos of searches which we have. The sample of cave which we have dug out (by means of good avalanche shovel!) was in the size 1,2 m  (in depth) on 0,8 m (in height and width). I want pay attention that we dug in parallel slope (after we have made cut of gentle layer) because perpendicularly dig it was useless, because there would be no the necessary length of cave. And that below there is crack which will not give possibility completely keep heat in cave.
Such work cannot be made by hands (without good tools - we have rummaged in total amount 4 … 5 cubic metrs of snow by avalanche shovel and by measuring lath - it had the sizes - 1500 mm x 100 mm х 40 mm). Therefore all reasonings on possibility make cave and hide in it have no sense. As well as conversations about “collapses of the arch of cave and be traumatised thus” because the quantity of snow obviously is not enough for this purpose even if it is in 2 or 3 times more than were in 1959.

   
  • Lyudmila is only wearing socks and uses a jacket sleeve to protect her left foot and calf from the cold wall.
  • Nicolai is on watch (wearing two watches) and sits across the entrance. He doesn't have his own jacket (which buttons up) so he borrows Lyudmila's zipped jacket. It's my preference that this act is consensual, in the Ortorten News they are linked romantically. Lyudmila sits at the back (warmer) and has two jumpers and two shirts. Maybe they huddle close.

To my much regret it all is called as imaginations which correspond events very little:
1.”Nikolay on watch (carries two hours)” (c) is concerns that was in tent (their camp above slope). It`s same condition remains to bottom site where them have be found. He be dressed:
“A canvas green fur jacket on sheepskin on fastener lightning, with two unprofitable pockets” (c) it is the medical certificate from mortuary from Boris Vozrozhdenny. It is its own jacket, which it has purchase on building work, where worked as "construction superintendent" (it is the chief of site of building) after his finish building faculty UPI. The canvas is rough cotton fabric. Luda had jacket from thin cotton fabric, apparently in this photo:

(https://a.radikal.ru/a09/1903/f9/2c18aa51e477t.jpg) (https://a.radikal.ru/a09/1903/f9/2c18aa51e477.jpg)

On Luda provide the storm jacket - as easy canvas, and under it warm jacket with the top fabric from thin cotton fabric is dressed. The storm jacket has no lining of any type. It was clasped on buttons and had “no type fastener _ zipper _”.
Because of that those who spoke: “the jacket of Luda is on Nikolay” did not estimate clothes which Luda on this travel owned.
Therefore you are not right, when speak about his clothes.


[/list]
EVENT :-
  • An extremely heavy object passes over the top of the den. This causes the den roof to collapse and the walls to deform.
  • This collapse results in forcing the four into the configuration as shown.
  • The object moves upwards in the diagram along the orange band exerting a crushing force through the snow such that although no skin tissue is bruised  the larger volumes of the chest and head as shown are crushed in the following time order.
  • Lyudmila - lying on her right side, chest fractures to right side. Her neck receives sufficient down force that it dislocates the thyroid area of the throat.  There is then a second crushing event that fractures the left side of her chest.
  • Nicolai - his head is facing Semyon with the rhs of the head against the den floor but with his chest facing the den floor. The crushing force presses the head against the den floor until the rhs of the skull and the base of the skull fracture, deforming the shape of his head. His right shoulder receives internal bruising.
  • Semyon - is lying on his back, receives a chest fracture on his rhs, right shoulder blade pressed on the den floor fractures and the rhs of his head is pressed against the den floor creating a wound.
  • Alexsander - is lying on his right side. He is pushed down with such force that his mastoid process (conical area of bone behind the right ear) connects with the den floor creating a wound. His left leg is lying on the den floor and the rolling object presses it hard against the floor creating internal bleeding on the inside of the knee. Semyon's chest protects Alexsander's knee from further crushing. Alexsander's neck receives sufficient downforce to dislocate the thyroid area. Alexsander's face is pressed down hard enough that the pathologist records an oval defect in the right cheek.

As there is no event when “the object moves on …” because I have shown that they could not dig out anything and as Nikolay could not have such trauma anywhere, except sticking out stones on slope (I have written it earlier), this description of events means is wrong.
I will tell about vehicle: no wheel or caterpillar transport technics can reach in the winter to place where Dyatlov group because there depth of snow around makes 1 metre and more was lost. In 1959 there at all was not roads on distance more than 90 km (or 55 miles), and even now there is no constant clearing is expensive more close than the same distance. Even now there it is possible get only by snowmobile or on skis. But even the snowmobile in January and the beginning of February very often cannot pass many places to lifting, because there is abrupt slope and friable snow. In 1959 snowmobile yet was not.
Four in ravine never lay on den because had not time reach there because three were traumatised earlier, and carry wounded men could only Kolevatov – he is one did not have traumas. Other variant is logically excluded.

Speculation as to the nature of the objectBall lightning could do this!  kewl1
However the clear favourite has to be a heavy tracked vehicle.

Reasons :-
  • At least one pathologist has stated that Lyudmila's fractures require two events and a tracked vehicle fits this very well, as it got very close the den collapse would have created a crater. The front of the vehicle drops into the crater creating one fracture and then as the front climbs out, the rear of the vehicle also drops into the same crater creating the second.
  • The "crushing zone" seems to be very narrow, googling this most WW2 tanks for example have a track width of approx 30cm.
Further thoughtsLyudmila suffers the worst predation from rodents. This is because as the spring thaw creates a trickle of water down the ravine into the river the scent of decomposition advertises the bodies across a significant distance. When these rodents follow this scent the first body they encounter is Lyudmila's.

Rodents did not eat Luda because they would leave traces of teeth. All his (and others man) damages are put by thawed snow. I already wrote:
1.Thawed snow has stream pressure (mechanical loading);
2. Thawed snow has very big concentration of the dissolved oxygen (chemical loading);
3.In thawed snow was contains microflora and microfauna (microorganisms) - (biological loading);
To it is necessary add that the defrozen corpse very quickly decays, because at frost water of tissue  extends and breaks durability communications between separate fragments of biological tissue.
Rodents very much do not love and are afraid appear in water, especially, when it flows in the limited space - channels of thawing of snow in snow layer. All these bodies have been found out under continuous snow, and have been then dug out. Water washed them on the limited channels, therefore the part of sites of bodies has been damaged (there where there was water access), and the part had no damages (there where they were completely in snow which has not thawed).
Traumas which they have received during lifetime, have been made in other place, but is very close from that place where them have found. Otherwise they could not appear in this place all together. Anybody from those three who had traumas could not move independently.


Now was it a complete coincidence that a tracked vehicle was using the ravine that night to ascend to pas the tree line? Or was there a radar signature above Kholat Syakhl that the military were interested in? Did the surviving three at the cedar see a vehicle ascending the hill and set off to seek rescue?

Presence of any car on Holatchahle in the winter is nonsense even now. In 1959 it is nonsense in degree square, if it is not cubed degrees.

Hi WAB,
Thank you very much for your explanation. This is something that adds a lot to what I was thinking - the den has never been there. So I have a few questions for you if you have the time?
1. Why the searchers found "a den", or being exact - branches and clothes? Does that proves stage up? Or those branches and clothes were simply there for other purpose different than den?
2. If we can see in your photo that the biggest snow is 1,5m , how come that in May 1959 the bodies were found under 4m of snow??? Does that mean that someone deriberately put more snow over these bodies to hide them from the searchers?

Thank you very much in advance!
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Clacon on April 02, 2019, 08:43:40 AM
So the general consensus is that they made the floor to keep off the wet snow, in the ravine - which is not super deep, but a depressed bit of land through which water flows.
This was maybe to protect them from the wind and to be close to a water source?? Would the water have been frozen at that time?
They died and the wind drifted snow up against the elevated edge of land and buried them that deep.

Or like Star Man said - they became incapacitated there and made the floor, somewhat sheltered from the wind.

I really don't think the "Den" was a set up....why even bother? It makes no sense, it offers no more of an explanation as to death by "natural causes" if you really think about it. What would this red herring be covering up? I mean, the condition of the bodies is the perplexing bit, not the Den....if it really was a coverup there would have been no bodies. "Oh they fell off a mountain or were buried by an avalanche....we couldn't find the remaining 4 bodies...." is easier than constructing a den, right?
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on April 02, 2019, 12:52:48 PM
So the general consensus is that they made the floor to keep off the wet snow, in the ravine - which is not super deep, but a depressed bit of land through which water flows.
This was maybe to protect them from the wind and to be close to a water source?? Would the water have been frozen at that time?
They died and the wind drifted snow up against the elevated edge of land and buried them that deep.

Or like Star Man said - they became incapacitated there and made the floor, somewhat sheltered from the wind.

I really don't think the "Den" was a set up....why even bother? It makes no sense, it offers no more of an explanation as to death by "natural causes" if you really think about it. What would this red herring be covering up? I mean, the condition of the bodies is the perplexing bit, not the Den....if it really was a coverup there would have been no bodies. "Oh they fell off a mountain or were buried by an avalanche....we couldn't find the remaining 4 bodies...." is easier than constructing a den, right?

Well Iam not sure if all what you state is the consensus of the Forum  !  ?
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Monika on April 02, 2019, 10:57:11 PM

So if Dubinina, Zolotaryov and Thibo were injured and Kolevatov dig the den as said by WAB, why the den was built so that four seats were made from clothes on the bottom of the den? After all, it had to be clear for Kovaletov  that three injured would not be able to sit there only to be in a lying position. Therefore, this theory (Kovaletov dig the den for injured trio) does not seem to me to be right.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 03, 2019, 02:57:39 AM
@WAB - hi there thanks for your detailed reply, much appreciated.
Lets begin with the big issue in your reply the depth of the snow in the ravine.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-209-220 (Atmanaki) states :-An area of 50 m behind the cedar was probed, the ravine leading there was not examined due to the fact that the probes that were available did not allow us to check the entire depth of the snow, reaching 4-5 m in places.
This of course during the first weekof March 1959.
So your assertion regarding snow depth is contradicting the case files?

Regarding vehicles. - the fact that the investigation from March to May was only supplied by helicopter reinforces your point. However it is my guess that then as now the Russian Army had the capability to deploy tracked vehicles in remote areas if it desired to do so (transported by helicopter?) so whilst it is conjecture that vehicles were there, it is possible. Other possibilities include Ivanov's fire orbs of course.
In fact imo the two best theories for the DPI are military or fire orbs or a combination - they both solve a lot of the evidence :-
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 03, 2019, 03:04:05 AM
I really don't think the "Den" was a set up....why even bother? It makes no sense, it offers no more of an explanation as to death by "natural causes" if you really think about it. What would this red herring be covering up? I mean, the condition of the bodies is the perplexing bit, not the Den....if it really was a coverup there would have been no bodies. "Oh they fell off a mountain or were buried by an avalanche....we couldn't find the remaining 4 bodies...." is easier than constructing a den, right?
Agree. In fact the best case for a coverup is that they couldn't find the ravine four and confirm they were dead and so covered up the rest of it so that the civilian authorities would investigate in good faith and find them. So the den has to be real, why bother inventing it?
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 03, 2019, 08:47:40 AM
maybe the den was not a den, but just branches and clothes on the surface of the snow for isolation,,but why away from the fire ??/ I am starting to think that the group really had an arguement between themselves and split up. I know from personal experience that in tense situation people tend to act impulsive and arguements starts very easy and escalate fast with people ready to even fight and split .
About the snow depth WAB said when he measured it it was the DEEPEST possible for the place and I believe he has been multiple times there and knows the weather and snow cover. To be honest I was questioning the depth of 4m , because the terrain and all the photos from there doesn't suggest such depths as far as I am familiar with mountains and ow snow is acumulated . That's why I would love to wait for WAB's explanation about the reported 4-5m snow cover the searchers reported. I think the whole investigation was very very sloppy and many numbers are completely wrong out of laziness and unprofessional job. Like come on , those so called searchers were only 20 year old students ... how much do they know . They weren't professional mountain guides like the ones that now are used for search operation. So all of the testimonies must be questioned , and even all the hard evidences are questionable like the den, the tent cut from the inside , etc.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 03, 2019, 09:00:38 AM
maybe the den was not a den, but just branches and clothes on the surface of the snow for isolation,,but why away from the fire ??/ I am starting to think that the group really had an arguement between themselves and split up. I know from personal experience that in tense situation people tend to act impulsive and arguements starts very easy and escalate fast with people ready to even fight and split .The two Yuris were probably dead by then so there could definitely be some tension. Or they were rotating between the fire and the den. From halfway up the cedar they could observe the tent. Sort of on duty at the forward station (fire) and resting and staying warm in the den.

About the snow depth WAB said when he measured it it was the DEEPEST possible for the place and I believe he has been multiple times there and knows the weather and snow cover. To be honest I was questioning the depth of 4m , because the terrain and all the photos from there doesn't suggest such depths as far as I am familiar with mountains and ow snow is acumulated . That's why I would love to wait for WAB's explanation about the reported 4-5m snow cover the searchers reported. I think the whole investigation was very very sloppy and many numbers are completely wrong out of laziness and unprofessional job. Like come on , those so called searchers were only 20 year old students ... how much do they know . They weren't professional mountain guides like the ones that now are used for search operation. So all of the testimonies must be questioned , and even all the hard evidences are questionable like the den, the tent cut from the inside , etc.It was definitely that deep in May, they got extra long probes (3.5m?) and still had to clear 1 metre off the top for these probes to reach the bottom, see the photo. Some of the party were KGB and at least one had the rank of Colonel.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-06.jpg)
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 03, 2019, 09:18:06 AM
I don't argue that it was that deep , it is visible from the photos. I am asking myself is that quantity of snow has been put there on purpose. I mean someone filled the ravine with 4 m of snow over the bodies to hide them until spring and until they are badly decayed and unrecognisable .
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 03, 2019, 09:25:23 AM
I don't argue that it was that deep , it is visible from the photos. I am asking myself is that quantity of snow has been put there on purpose. I mean someone filled the ravine with 4 m of snow over the bodies to hide them until spring and until they are badly decayed and unrecognisable .
There's a lot of snow in that photo? Maybe they used a bulldozer?  kewl1
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 03, 2019, 09:37:51 AM
who knows? everything is possible with this case....let see what WAB thinks about the snow in 1959
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 03, 2019, 11:48:49 AM
@WAB - more from the case files - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312
At the bottom of the mountain flows a river up to 70 cm deep in a ravine where the depth of the snow in places reaches 2 to 6 m thick.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 05, 2019, 01:48:33 PM
Friends, I very much regret that I answer with delay and it is rare, but I cannot write to thicket and faster. I have not time see sometimes all the texts which it is turned to my attention.
I will answer from this line of the text, and that is written earlier, I will try answer tomorrow.

maybe the den was not a den, but just branches and clothes on the surface of the snow for isolation,,but why away from the fire ??/

Yes. You are right in it. How much I have studied these actions and as far as I understand situation so it was in this way.
It was time-constructions for this purpose that it would be possible put bodies at their transport to fire, from place where they have got the wounds.
Den has been found at 30 cm (~ 1 ft) above the earth, it means that snow level at that time when it constructed was on 5 … 7 cm above this size. Snow is condensed approximately on such size. All other it is replenishment of snow for more later time.
Even if in the beginning of March (then searches under snow there have begun) all these people has covered with snow small amount them it was not visible. Therefore them also have not found. Especially it is clear because it search for it in this place it was very strong inconveniently and difficultly. There is difficult microrelief. Most likely in this small part for them also did not search, and have simply inspected and have decided that there they cannot be.
We even had such joke: “ Search more conveniently not there where have lost, and under lantern light on column - there is more light.” (c)

I am starting to think that the group really had an arguement between themselves and split up. I know from personal experience that in tense situation people tend to act impulsive and arguements starts very easy and escalate fast with people ready to even fight and split .

Yes, so sometimes happens in not so amicable groups. But it not that case which we study. Not because they is superman also are too judicious, that is why that:
1.At them was struggle for life preservation, and it rejects small insults and troubles.
2.The Group was amicable and is well prepared for taiga and cold conditions. It is necessary notice that at that time ability and desire operate in collective were much stronger, than now. After WWII has passed only 14 years, namely because of such qualities of the USSR could win war with fascists though in the beginning forces, means and skills were very unequal. It has been very well acquired even by following generation which was not at war. Besides, it is one of national lines of Russian character.
3.Their separation has occurred not below (near by cedar), and still at escape from tent. After that they went there different groups and could not see and hear others one because it was dark and there was blizzard. Visibility has been limited as distance 10 … 15 m (30 … 50 ft), and audibility on more smaller distance. And so was at minimum to the middle of way from tent to cedar. Further all became bit better, because wind strongly abate. But as they have dispersed earlier, they could not incorporate in the dark any more.

About the snow depth WAB said when he measured it it was the DEEPEST possible for the place and I believe he has been multiple times there and knows the weather and snow cover. To be honest I was questioning the depth of 4m , because the terrain and all the photos from there doesn't suggest such depths as far as I am familiar with mountains and ow snow is acumulated . That's why I would love to wait for WAB's explanation about the reported 4-5m snow cover the searchers reported. I think the whole investigation was very very sloppy and many numbers are completely wrong out of laziness and unprofessional job. Like come on , those so called searchers were only 20 year old students ... how much do they know . They weren't professional mountain guides like the ones that now are used for search operation.

Your doubts very correct. There anybody measured nothing by ruler. All distances and depth of snow were defined by eye. But it does not mean that in the basic documents wrote about 4-5-meter snow cover. There are written figure 2,5 metrs (8 ft). Other overestimated figures it is result of retellings and different conversations on it already during more later time.
Figure as 2,5 … 3 metrs (8 … 10 ft) in that place where all ravine is blocked by snow (so we see in photos) can be quite real for quantity of snow in May. When snow has collected in current all the winter long.
I do not think that there were nonprofessionals (by the way professionals then at all were not), there were skilled man for such searches, but all of them estimated "approximately", therefore all figures such "round". To measure and do all very precisely in such conditions it is absolutely impossible. Even now, when there are many devices and technologies in such conditions there are many errors by the same searches. Even it is at professionals.


So all of the testimonies must be questioned , and even all the hard evidences are questionable like the den, the tent cut from the inside , etc.

If start do so it means that it is necessary reject all, then think up all on the, and all tell how it has been thought up. I do not think that it is necessary replace all facts (even if they are not clear also their researcher cannot explain) imaginations and begin exist in alternative reality, instead of usual life.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 05, 2019, 01:51:58 PM
I don't argue that it was that deep , it is visible from the photos. I am asking myself is that quantity of snow has been put there on purpose. I mean someone filled the ravine with 4 m of snow over the bodies to hide them until spring and until they are badly decayed and unrecognisable .

No. Nobody tried fill ravine snow. Figure 2,5 and even 3 metrs there can be real. And the big figures it is result of conversations and retelling as it happens in joke about spoilt phone.
The most important thing should be imagined: who and what for and as what means, it should do. If there is no definite answer on all these questions it turns out that all these assumptions are invention

Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 05, 2019, 01:53:01 PM
I don't argue that it was that deep , it is visible from the photos. I am asking myself is that quantity of snow has been put there on purpose. I mean someone filled the ravine with 4 m of snow over the bodies to hide them until spring and until they are badly decayed and unrecognisable .
There's a lot of snow in that photo? Maybe they used a bulldozer?  kewl1

No, they had many bulldozers.  bigjoke
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 05, 2019, 01:54:30 PM
who knows? everything is possible with this case....let see what WAB thinks about the snow in 1959

Now I have many information about last expedition to pass in March of this year, but I have not time to write all even in Russian. If who that undertakes translate it, I promise send to him texts at once as soon as them I will write.
But I write them slowly because now lot of time leaves on experiments at my university. And still I should have time stop read course to students 4 years of training.
Meanwhile I can give only the reference to some notes of one Russian forums where Alexander Alekseenkov (Shura) and I wrote in Russian.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 05, 2019, 01:57:28 PM
@WAB - more from the case files - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312
At the bottom of the mountain flows a river up to 70 cm deep in a ravine where the depth of the snow in places reaches 2 to 6 m thick.

I have not understood, whence there was this phrase? There can not be depth of snow as 6 metres ( 20 ft) anywhere. There is the highest coast of valley as height from 6 to 8 metres (20…27  ft)  , but the opposite coast has height only 3 metres ( 10 ft). Therefore such depth of snow is nonsense on this place. Snow depth in 2 metres ( 6,5 ft) there can be met in several places. For example, as I show in picture which I resulted.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 05, 2019, 02:26:52 PM
@WAB - more from the case files - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312)
At the bottom of the mountain flows a river up to 70 cm deep in a ravine where the depth of the snow in places reaches 2 to 6 m thick.

I have not understood, whence there was this phrase? There can not be depth of snow as 6 metres ( 20 ft) anywhere. There is the highest coast of valley as height from 6 to 8 metres (20…27  ft)  , but the opposite coast has height only 3 metres ( 10 ft). Therefore such depth of snow is nonsense on this place. Snow depth in 2 metres ( 6,5 ft) there can be met in several places. For example, as I show in picture which I resulted.
Read the pages in Russian at the bottom of these links.

Tempalov's testimony - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312)
Atmanaki's testimony -https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-209-220 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-209-220)





Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 05, 2019, 02:35:15 PM
@WAB - more from the case files - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312)
At the bottom of the mountain flows a river up to 70 cm deep in a ravine where the depth of the snow in places reaches 2 to 6 m thick.

I have not understood, whence there was this phrase? There can not be depth of snow as 6 metres ( 20 ft) anywhere. There is the highest coast of valley as height from 6 to 8 metres (20…27  ft)  , but the opposite coast has height only 3 metres ( 10 ft). Therefore such depth of snow is nonsense on this place. Snow depth in 2 metres ( 6,5 ft) there can be met in several places. For example, as I show in picture which I resulted.
This photo taken in May shows a depth of 4-4.5 metres?(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-06.jpg)
So Tempalov and Atmanaki's testimony is just stating is that this level of snow was also there in March?
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 06, 2019, 12:20:58 PM
@WAB - more from the case files - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312)
At the bottom of the mountain flows a river up to 70 cm deep in a ravine where the depth of the snow in places reaches 2 to 6 m thick.

I have not understood, whence there was this phrase? There can not be depth of snow as 6 metres ( 20 ft) anywhere. There is the highest coast of valley as height from 6 to 8 metres (20…27  ft)  , but the opposite coast has height only 3 metres ( 10 ft). Therefore such depth of snow is nonsense on this place. Snow depth in 2 metres ( 6,5 ft) there can be met in several places. For example, as I show in picture which I resulted.
Read the pages in Russian at the bottom of these links.

Tempalov's testimony - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312)
Atmanaki's testimony -https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-209-220 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-209-220)

I can`t find that, on what you refer. Please result concrete phrases from these files. It is possible write in English.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 06, 2019, 12:24:24 PM
@WAB - more from the case files - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312)
At the bottom of the mountain flows a river up to 70 cm deep in a ravine where the depth of the snow in places reaches 2 to 6 m thick.

I have not understood, whence there was this phrase? There can not be depth of snow as 6 metres ( 20 ft) anywhere. There is the highest coast of valley as height from 6 to 8 metres (20…27  ft)  , but the opposite coast has height only 3 metres ( 10 ft). Therefore such depth of snow is nonsense on this place. Snow depth in 2 metres ( 6,5 ft) there can be met in several places. For example, as I show in picture which I resulted.
This photo taken in May shows a depth of 4-4.5 metres?(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-06.jpg)

It photo is take pictures on May, 04th 1959, but the snow height does not correspond 4 … 4,5 metrs.
The top edge of snow is there where I have shown red line. All that is behind over it, it is grows out of perspective projection which is characteristic for photo take pictures from below.
 
(https://d.radikal.ru/d34/1904/de/57851bc294eft.jpg) (https://d.radikal.ru/d34/1904/de/57851bc294ef.jpg)

Above there is one more edge of snow (blue line). It is that "well" which have dug out above on slope. On it was possible judge how much abrupt stream valley in this place.

So Tempalov and Atmanaki's testimony is just stating is that this level of snow was also there in March?

No. Anywhere in these texts there are no authentic assertions that the snow height was 4 … 4,5 metrs. There that snow was deep is written only. But anybody from them did not measure this depth. Their is this opinion about snow which proves be true nothing.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 06, 2019, 12:26:23 PM
WAB has added some interesting information.  Particularly on the ability of the group to build a snow den, which seems much more unlikely.  Also, the accelerated decay and the lack of rodent teeth marks is a good point.

So it is unlikely that they built a snow den, and the missing tissue is more likely to be as a result of the thaw and accelerted decay.  I tend to agree with this.


Yes. Thanks that divide my point of view into this section of the theme.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 06, 2019, 12:28:47 PM
Many thanks for the replies. I'm very busy today so will have to defer proper replies until tomorrow.

You don't need deep snow to build a snow cave - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXp_KhfluD0
But a shovel does seem important!  kewl1
One of the few facts wrt the DPI is the existence of the den floor. So unless it is a fabrication to fool everyone, there really was a den and they really were found dead nearby, near enough to support a theory that they died in it.

The main thing in that I wrote is not absence of shovel, and quantity and condition snow which do not allow dig out cave which can be used for rescue.
But even if it could be dug out, it would not rescue them, because even in it there was deficiency of heat which would not allow them survive. They had very weak clothes, and in any (even and even with sources of additional heat) the clothes warmer are necessary very good cave.
They understood it, therefore aspired reach to fire and hoped that it will be big and powerful.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 06, 2019, 12:32:28 PM
The bed made of branches may have simply been that.  A bed to keep the injured off the cold ground.  Not necessarily a bed inside a den.

That then leads to the question why make a bed in the ravine when there is a fire only 75m away?

Kolevatov hoped that to he those who was at fire will help transport wounded men. When it has come to fire, he has found out that those two are already dead. Then it has taken off from them clothes and has brought it to den. On the way he has dropped parts of those clothes (casually) what that. He has put the brought parts of clothes on den and has started transport wounded men to den as one body in once. But he has not had time finished it because it did not have not enough forces and it has fallen. When he has tried rise, his muscles could not work any more well because of cold. It has occurred when he transported Simeon Zolotaryov.
It gathered gradually (small sites of way) all transported to fire, but could not finish it. For he did have not enough forces into such conditions. He and so has made very big work.

Maybe,  those injured were simply looking for fire wood and fell injuring themselves.  After that it was not possible to move them out of the ravine and back to the fire, so they made a bed in the ravine.  They did not have time to make another fire there because within 30 mins those injured were dead or close to death.  So they didn't have time to make a fire.  When I say they, it may have just been Kolevatov.

1.Wounded men (3 persons) were in such condition that they could not move independently. Therefore they could not “search for fire wood”.
2.Searches of fire wood with this place are unreal, because except very small and died off branches there find anything it is impossible. Other vegetation in this place – it is the wet and frozen birches and firs. They burn very badly even in good fire. The nearest fire wood for fire is on the cedar. Other fire wood is not present within way without skis.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 06, 2019, 12:37:43 PM

Hi WAB,
Thank you very much for your explanation. This is something that adds a lot to what I was thinking - the den has never been there. So I have a few questions for you if you have the time?

I will try find this time and answer for you. Only I think, it can be not so quickly.

1. Why the searchers found "a den", or being exact - branches and clothes? Does that proves stage up? Or those branches and clothes were simply there for other purpose different than den?

I have written above as it is possible present logically all sequence of these actions of four. There it has been written for what it is intended den. Look the Answer # 73 for the Star man. Have found them because at first Mansi Kurikov has shown branches which left in depth of snow. And then they have started (use snow probes) have found out pieces of rags on drills of these probes. Then they have dug out this part of the area snow and have found den.

2. If we can see in your photo that the biggest snow is 1,5m , how come that in May 1959 the bodies were found under 4m of snow??? Does that mean that someone deriberately put more snow over these bodies to hide them from the searchers?

In my message the Answer № 92 for Nigel Evans I have written that the height of snow as 4 metrs, is emotional error. Besides, we dug out snow in other place from where these have been found four. It is nearby, but not there. If consider that for whom that is necessary that can be hidden only when it is precisely known to whom and what for it is necessary, and as it has such possibility, and as physical, and on duration of time of this action.
I so consider that it simply fantasy because no possibility and motivation for this purpose is not present. The nature is more powerful, than any man, therefore she can easily make all is much easier and faster, than any man or people group.
To fill snow there is no sense, it all the same sometime will thaw completely. By June in these parts all snow already thaws.

Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 06, 2019, 12:42:28 PM
So the general consensus is that they made the floor to keep off the wet snow, in the ravine - which is not super deep, but a depressed bit of land through which water flows.
This was maybe to protect them from the wind and to be close to a water source?? Would the water have been frozen at that time?


I think that very thin streamlet (in the thickness there is less one half inch) there always flows, but it was under snow and it was not visible. We too had such streamlet, but we have seen it only when have dug out all to the ground and the deepest part of its channel. Above it covered snow with ice crust on water surface. But den has been found not on channel of stream and on flat part of dry ground. Certainly under it there were 30 cm (1 ft) of snow, but I speak about its arrangement concerning the channel of stream.
Water happens frozen, only when it does not flow. However at that time the winter was colder, therefore the small stream could be chilled completely. At considerable quantity of water the stream will not be chilled in this area. For example, in photos in March 1959 it is visible water in stream in a small amount of places.

They died and the wind drifted snow up against the elevated edge of land and buried them that deep.

Or like Star Man said - they became incapacitated there and made the floor, somewhat sheltered from the wind.

1.There where they have been found bodies 4, the wind any more did not represent the big threat because it was very weak, or it was not in general. But they got to zone more colds, than it was above. The difference of temperatures could be to 10 degrees of Celsius. Below it were threatened most of all not with wind, and it is cold.
2.The Wind of other direction could transfer lot of snow. It is additional height of snow concerning usual snowfalls and condensation of snow from warmer air which came from the West. This is typical phenomenon near to the Ural ridge. These are meteorological features of the given region.

I really don't think the "Den" was a set up....why even bother? It makes no sense, it offers no more of an explanation as to death by "natural causes" if you really think about it. What would this red herring be covering up? I mean, the condition of the bodies is the perplexing bit, not the Den....if it really was a coverup there would have been no bodies. "Oh they fell off a mountain or were buried by an avalanche....we couldn't find the remaining 4 bodies...." is easier than constructing a den, right?

Yes. You are completely right. If that was necessary that hide them would move to the nearest bog and them never would find. For this purpose it is not necessary organised art picture with apportion almost all bodies on good visibility.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 06, 2019, 12:43:44 PM
So the general consensus is that they made the floor to keep off the wet snow, in the ravine - which is not super deep, but a depressed bit of land through which water flows.
This was maybe to protect them from the wind and to be close to a water source?? Would the water have been frozen at that time?
They died and the wind drifted snow up against the elevated edge of land and buried them that deep.

Or like Star Man said - they became incapacitated there and made the floor, somewhat sheltered from the wind.

I really don't think the "Den" was a set up....why even bother? It makes no sense, it offers no more of an explanation as to death by "natural causes" if you really think about it. What would this red herring be covering up? I mean, the condition of the bodies is the perplexing bit, not the Den....if it really was a coverup there would have been no bodies. "Oh they fell off a mountain or were buried by an avalanche....we couldn't find the remaining 4 bodies...." is easier than constructing a den, right?

Well Iam not sure if all what you state is the consensus of the Forum  !  ?

The true is never defined by voting. If as result of voting it will be recognised that water in the river should flow upstream it all the same will not be.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 06, 2019, 12:46:46 PM

So if Dubinina, Zolotaryov and Thibo were injured and Kolevatov dig the den as said by WAB, why the den was built so that four seats were made from clothes on the bottom of the den? After all, it had to be clear for Kovaletov  that three injured would not be able to sit there only to be in a lying position. Therefore, this theory (Kovaletov dig the den for injured trio) does not seem to me to be right.

Why they there should be simultaneously?
Why they there should be all at once?
This den has been intended only for time storage of wounded bodies while the others will be transferred to fire. If Kolevatov transfers whom that another there are only 2 persons who there can be located lying for small time. For other purposes this den simply is not necessary. It cannot long be used for it qualities.
He there no dug nothing. He has put branches on snow, and on them has put clothes removed from people at fire. It is all that became with den. Other it only different reasonings of people which badly know both conditions on this place, and features of such actions in extreme conditions.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 06, 2019, 12:55:19 PM
@WAB - hi there thanks for your detailed reply, much appreciated.
Lets begin with the big issue in your reply the depth of the snow in the ravine.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-209-220 (Atmanaki) states :-An area of 50 m behind the cedar was probed, the ravine leading there was not examined due to the fact that the probes that were available did not allow us to check the entire depth of the snow, reaching 4-5 m in places.
This of course during the first weekof March 1959.
So your assertion regarding snow depth is contradicting the case files?

Athmanaky itself did not measure depth of snow. It did not have for this purpose any tools. Therefore he could name any figure, for example, 10 metres. But it does not mean that it is the right figure. Athmanaky there was in this place only 1 time as current 8 … 10 days. We were there 5 times in the winter + I was as 2 times in the summer, Shura + 4 times in the summer. And we specially were engaged in researches of this case, in difference from Athmanaky which overall objective was searches of the gone travellers. Special researches and such searches are very badly combined. Often happens that they are simply impossible simultaneously.

Regarding vehicles. - the fact that the investigation from March to May was only supplied by helicopter reinforces your point. However it is my guess that then as now the Russian Army had the capability to deploy tracked vehicles in remote areas if it desired to do so (transported by helicopter?) so whilst it is conjecture that vehicles were there, it is possible.

Let's understand at first with transport technics?
At first I want to ask you a question: who and what for (a question on what it to move while we will leave on the future) wanted to move there such technics? For example, for this purpose, what “ move Dyatlov group only”?  grin1  Whether you find, what it is question on which there is no answer?
About helicopters too question is interesting. What helicopters could transport heavy cargoes in 1959? Or, how much heavy cargoes could transport helicopters on height to 1000 m over the sea at that time?
It is separately possible ask question: what weight the transport technics which “could run over Dyatlov group” could have? + As it could move there on snow of such depth and on a relief of such character?
Please result concrete types and marks of such technics.

Other possibilities include Ivanov's fire orbs of course.

How what they saw in the sky could affect actions of Djatlova group? It has gone down on the earth, has then made a bad act, and has then evaporated? It is all concerns a picture which they saw?
The request from UFO to me not address. It will be possible make it only after "neolearnt" will be identified and its physical properties will be known.

In fact imo the two best theories for the DPI are military or fire orbs or a combination - they both solve a lot of the evidence :-
  • condition of snow at tent indicates warming.
  • orange skin indicates nitric acid.
  • ravine group injuries consistent with crushing, no limb injuries make falling low probability.

If it possible I am will answer with just the same theses?
1.On what that military specifies nothing. Though set of false "facts" have already thought up. Therefore it is all cannot be "proof" in any way.
2.Warming (local and for local time) is fake which too by whom that is thought up, but does not prove to be true any data from all surrounding meteorological stations in radius 100 … 300 km. I did not look further.
3.   About “ orange skin” I was already tired many times write refutation. Here the picture too “specifies this in nitric acid” (c)?

(https://c.radikal.ru/c30/1904/4a/b9e55745185et.jpg) (https://c.radikal.ru/c30/1904/4a/b9e55745185e.jpg)

It absolutely in other place, but too result of freezing. It is called “as Erythema of cold” ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythema ) or “spot of  Kifershtein” that is one of signs of death from overcooling.
4.The Constant mention on “absence of traumas extremities” (c) is result very much superficial knowledge of kinematics and statistics of traumas from falling.
a)At all participants of Dyatlov group is small signs of traumas (insignificant) extremities. It is necessary read medical papers attentively only.
b)In the sports biomechanics (section “the kinematics of movements”) is resulted set of examples when it does not represent the facts.
c)For this purpose what be protected from falling by extremities over have time for reaction and for fulfilment of this action. In the dark and at stressful condition (especially on cold when movements in general are slowed down) for the period of falling, or conditions of already begun movement, do not allow make it. In addition the clothes both disturb movement, and protect from small traumas.
d)At one of the Russian forum Vietnamka has given example video of falling people in city street on slippery road. There practically there was no case when who that would be in time will be protected from falling or be traumatised in extremities thus. There was more than three tens examples.

Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WAB on April 06, 2019, 12:57:51 PM
Unfortunately it is everything that I can write today. I could not answer messages in other sections. I will make it later.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 06, 2019, 01:33:14 PM
@WAB - more from the case files - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312)
At the bottom of the mountain flows a river up to 70 cm deep in a ravine where the depth of the snow in places reaches 2 to 6 m thick.

I have not understood, whence there was this phrase? There can not be depth of snow as 6 metres ( 20 ft) anywhere. There is the highest coast of valley as height from 6 to 8 metres (20…27  ft)  , but the opposite coast has height only 3 metres ( 10 ft). Therefore such depth of snow is nonsense on this place. Snow depth in 2 metres ( 6,5 ft) there can be met in several places. For example, as I show in picture which I resulted.
This photo taken in May shows a depth of 4-4.5 metres?(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-06.jpg)

It photo is take pictures on May, 04th 1959, but the snow height does not correspond 4 … 4,5 metrs.
The top edge of snow is there where I have shown red line. All that is behind over it, it is grows out of perspective projection which is characteristic for photo take pictures from below.
 
(https://d.radikal.ru/d34/1904/de/57851bc294eft.jpg) (https://d.radikal.ru/d34/1904/de/57851bc294ef.jpg)

Above there is one more edge of snow (blue line). It is that "well" which have dug out above on slope. On it was possible judge how much abrupt stream valley in this place.

So Tempalov and Atmanaki's testimony is just stating is that this level of snow was also there in March?

No. Anywhere in these texts there are no authentic assertions that the snow height was 4 … 4,5 metrs. There that snow was deep is written only. But anybody from them did not measure this depth. Their is this opinion about snow which proves be true nothing.
Hi, thanks for your answers, i'm busy tonight so will answer more fully later.
But this one is easy :-"May 4, 1959, 75 meters from the campfire, in the direction of the valley of the fourth tributary of Lozva, i.e. perpendicular to the way of the hikers from the tent, under a layer of snow 4-4.5 meters, the bodies of Dubinina, Zolotaryov, Thibeaux-Brignolle and Kolevatov were found"https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-384-387?rbid=17743
In Russian (i can read the numbers!   kewl1 ) https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-case-files-386.jpg
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 06, 2019, 05:09:36 PM
@WAB - more from the case files - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312)
At the bottom of the mountain flows a river up to 70 cm deep in a ravine where the depth of the snow in places reaches 2 to 6 m thick.

I have not understood, whence there was this phrase? There can not be depth of snow as 6 metres ( 20 ft) anywhere. There is the highest coast of valley as height from 6 to 8 metres (20…27  ft)  , but the opposite coast has height only 3 metres ( 10 ft). Therefore such depth of snow is nonsense on this place. Snow depth in 2 metres ( 6,5 ft) there can be met in several places. For example, as I show in picture which I resulted.
Read the pages in Russian at the bottom of these links.

Tempalov's testimony - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312)At the bottom of the mountain flows a river up to 70 cm deep in a ravine where the depth of the snow in places reaches 2 to 6 m thick.
Atmanaki's testimony -https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-209-220 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-209-220) An area of 50 m behind the cedar was probed, the ravine leading there was not examined due to the fact that the probes that were available did not allow us to check the entire depth of the snow, reaching 4-5 m in places.

I can`t find that, on what you refer. Please result concrete phrases from these files. It is possible write in English.

Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 06, 2019, 05:22:50 PM
Many thanks for the replies. I'm very busy today so will have to defer proper replies until tomorrow.

You don't need deep snow to build a snow cave - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXp_KhfluD0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXp_KhfluD0)
But a shovel does seem important!  kewl1
One of the few facts wrt the DPI is the existence of the den floor. So unless it is a fabrication to fool everyone, there really was a den and they really were found dead nearby, near enough to support a theory that they died in it.

The main thing in that I wrote is not absence of shovel, and quantity and condition snow which do not allow dig out cave which can be used for rescue.
But even if it could be dug out, it would not rescue them, because even in it there was deficiency of heat which would not allow them survive. They had very weak clothes, and in any (even and even with sources of additional heat) the clothes warmer are necessary very good cave.
They understood it, therefore aspired reach to fire and hoped that it will be big and powerful.
You are assuming that they were in the den to escape the cold, perhaps they felt safer there than at the fire. The 2 Yuris were probably already dead. But the den must offer some thermal benefit, retaining body heat.
Also there is the puzzle of how much clothing was available but not worn :-

Later that day, they hit upon a cache of clothing. What is odd about the articles is that they are abandoned in the snow, not attached to a person. Stranger still, some of the clothing looks to have been cut or shredded. There is a crumpled gray Chinese woolen vest turned inside out, knitted trousers, a brown woolen sweater with lilac thread, a right trouser leg and a bandage one yard long. The more Ortyukov and his men dig, the closer they come to the creek bed, which means, by the second day, that the men are digging through a combination of snow and slush. The second day of excavation reveals yet more clothing: black cotton sports trousers with the right leg missing—presumably the other half from the previous day’s trousers—and half of a woman’s sweater, belonging to Dubinina.

Eichar, Donnie. Dead Mountain (p. 207). Chronicle Books LLC. Kindle Edition.


That's a lot of clothing that they're not utilising. It could because it was wet and useless or it could be that they placed this clothing between themselves and the den walls as a thermal barrier.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 07, 2019, 05:19:08 AM
@WAB - hi there thanks for your detailed reply, much appreciated.
Lets begin with the big issue in your reply the depth of the snow in the ravine.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-209-220 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-209-220) (Atmanaki) states :-An area of 50 m behind the cedar was probed, the ravine leading there was not examined due to the fact that the probes that were available did not allow us to check the entire depth of the snow, reaching 4-5 m in places.
This of course during the first weekof March 1959.
So your assertion regarding snow depth is contradicting the case files?

Athmanaky itself did not measure depth of snow. It did not have for this purpose any tools. Therefore he could name any figure, for example, 10 metres. But it does not mean that it is the right figure. Athmanaky there was in this place only 1 time as current 8 … 10 days. We were there 5 times in the winter + I was as 2 times in the summer, Shura + 4 times in the summer. And we specially were engaged in researches of this case, in difference from Athmanaky which overall objective was searches of the gone travellers. Special researches and such searches are very badly combined. Often happens that they are simply impossible simultaneously.Athmanaky states 4m 
Tempalov states 2m to 6m, average = 4m 
Ivanov = 4 to 4.5m after digging.
We don't know if they used a pole to measure the depth? There are a lot of young trees. They built a camp and could have poles, bamboo etc or tied shorter lengths into a longer one. Your argument that Tempalov just had a guess cannot be correct. They left the ravine until May because their 2.5m probes weren't longer enough? So 3m plus at least?

Regarding vehicles. - the fact that the investigation from March to May was only supplied by helicopter reinforces your point. However it is my guess that then as now the Russian Army had the capability to deploy tracked vehicles in remote areas if it desired to do so (transported by helicopter?) so whilst it is conjecture that vehicles were there, it is possible.

Let's understand at first with transport technics?
At first I want to ask you a question: who and what for (a question on what it to move while we will leave on the future) wanted to move there such technics? For example, for this purpose, what “ move Dyatlov group only”?  grin1  Whether you find, what it is question on which there is no answer?The translation is proving difficult here, but i think you're asking me "what would be the purpose" of having tracked vehicles on the mountain? Maybe to monitor the fire orbs...
About helicopters too question is interesting. What helicopters could transport heavy cargoes in 1959? Or, how much heavy cargoes could transport helicopters on height to 1000 m over the sea at that time?

The Mil Mi-6 could lift 12 tonnes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-6 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-6)
"The Mi-6 was by far the world's largest helicopter when it was designed in 1954–56; with a maximum load capacity of 12,000 kg.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-6#cite_note-Gordon_2005-1) It was also the world's fastest helicopter; with a top speed of 300 km/h (190 mph). In its early days, the Mi-6 set many world records, including one for sheer circuit speed at 340 km/h (211 mph). As of 2013, the Mi-6 still holds the FAI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9d%C3%A9ration_A%C3%A9ronautique_Internationale) record of fastest 5-tonne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonne) lift over 1,000 km, in which it flew 284 km/h in 1962.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-6#cite_note-3)"It is separately possible ask question: what weight the transport technics which “could run over Dyatlov group” could have? + As it could move there on snow of such depth and on a relief of such character?
Please result concrete types and marks of such technics.It's an interesting question. The snow between the victims and the vehicles has to be deep enough so that there is no bruising or asymmetric forces on the limbs to prevent fractures but allow for the compressive force to break the rib cages and a skull. This requires highly specialised knowledge of say a forensic pathologist which i don't have. But i would guess at a 1m depth of snow with a vehicle of several tonnes moving at reasonable speed. The calculation would have to include the den collapsing and creating a crater that the track would drop into both front and rear so there would be impulse forces as well as simpler compressive force. I have read that at least one pathologist considers Lyudmila's injuries to have been the result of two events. This fits well with the front of a tracked vehicle dropping into the crater and then the rear. Also the narrow width of the injuries is very clear. Two chests crushed but not the head or the pelvis. A tracked vehicle or multiple all wheel drive (6x6?) fits very very well.


Other possibilities include Ivanov's fire orbs of course.

How what they saw in the sky could affect actions of Djatlova group? It has gone down on the earth, has then made a bad act, and has then evaporated? It is all concerns a picture which they saw?
The request from UFO to me not address. It will be possible make it only after "neolearnt" will be identified and its physical properties will be known.The Fitzgerald event in Ireland in 1868 is one of the most powerful events recorded by a credible witness. He states that he watched a fire orb plough a 1m deep trench in peat for 100m. - http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/first_installment_extreme_ball_lightning.htm (http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/first_installment_extreme_ball_lightning.htm)This analysis estimates an object of at least 20 tonnes - https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1107768 (https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1107768)This link describes similar objects - http://www.ball-lightning.info/Ball-lightning/Roller.html (http://www.ball-lightning.info/Ball-lightning/Roller.html)I appreciate that some of these links might not translate easily as the last one is an image but i assure you they are interesting and credible accounts.If the DPI fire orbs exhibited similar behaviour then they easily explain the ravine deaths.

In fact imo the two best theories for the DPI are military or fire orbs or a combination - they both solve a lot of the evidence :-
  • condition of snow at tent indicates warming.
  • orange skin indicates nitric acid.
  • ravine group injuries consistent with crushing, no limb injuries make falling low probability.

If it possible I am will answer with just the same theses?
1.On what that military specifies nothing. Though set of false "facts" have already thought up. Therefore it is all cannot be "proof" in any way.Only the confiscated evidence (as stated by Ivanov and Okishev) can prove anything anything else is conjecture and always will be.
2.Warming (local and for local time) is fake which too by whom that is thought up, but does not prove to be true any data from all surrounding meteorological stations in radius 100 … 300 km. I did not look further.In his interview Koptelov states that the rescuers considered warming as an explanation for the condition of the snow and footprints. The "atmospheric electricity" theory for this is entirely local to that area and does not extend to meteorology.

3.   About “ orange skin” I was already tired many times write refutation. Here the picture too “specifies this in nitric acid” (c)?

(https://c.radikal.ru/c30/1904/4a/b9e55745185et.jpg) (https://c.radikal.ru/c30/1904/4a/b9e55745185e.jpg)

It absolutely in other place, but too result of freezing. It is called “as Erythema of cold” ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythema (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythema) ) or “spot of  Kifershtein” that is one of signs of death from overcooling.
When i google image  "Erythema of cold” i get pictures of red spots etc. "Erythema" is derived from the Greek for red.....
When i google image "nitric acid burn" i get things like this :-(https://i.ibb.co/Bs2spRs/index.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
But without autopsy reports on Chivruay there is little more to be said.

4.The Constant mention on “absence of traumas extremities” (c) is result very much superficial knowledge of kinematics and statistics of traumas from falling.
a)At all participants of Dyatlov group is small signs of traumas (insignificant) extremities. It is necessary read medical papers attentively only.The "crushed in the den theory" is that Igor, Rustem and Zinaida received hand injuries digging down to the four victims before they suffocated.
b)In the sports biomechanics (section “the kinematics of movements”) is resulted set of examples when it does not represent the facts.I don't understand? - section “the kinematics of movements”c)For this purpose what be protected from falling by extremities over have time for reaction and for fulfilment of this action. In the dark and at stressful condition (especially on cold when movements in general are slowed down) for the period of falling, or conditions of already begun movement, do not allow make it. In addition the clothes both disturb movement, and protect from small traumas.
d)At one of the Russian forum Vietnamka has given example video of falling people in city street on slippery road. There practically there was no case when who that would be in time will be protected from falling or be traumatised in extremities thus. There was more than three tens examples.In WW2 the western powers air forces (USAF and RAF) ground down Germany's industry with mass bombing raids with huge losses of planes and crew. Men on burning planes were forced to choose between burning to death or a much quicker death by jumping without a parachute which they could not reach due to the fire. Some of these men would survive a fall of 20,000 feet. They formed a club. It wasn't a very big club.  kewl1 So yes, falling has curious results.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 08, 2019, 05:30:49 AM
More on the Mil Mi-6 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-6

Normally flown by a crew of five or more, the Mi-6 seats 65 armed troops and can alternatively carry 41 stretcher (litter) patients and two attendants, or a wide range of bulky loads, including vehicles, loaded through rear clamshell doors. In exercises, fleets of these aircraft have airlifted many kinds of weapons, including FROG-7 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FROG-7) rockets on their PT-76 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT-76) tracked chassis, as well as large radars and heavy artillery. All Soviet armoured personnel carriers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_personnel_carrier), armoured cars and light mechanised infantry combat vehicles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MICV) can be carried.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-6#cite_note-Gordon_2005-1)
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 09, 2019, 03:29:45 PM

Hi WAB,
Thank you very much for your explanation. This is something that adds a lot to what I was thinking - the den has never been there. So I have a few questions for you if you have the time?

I will try find this time and answer for you. Only I think, it can be not so quickly.

1. Why the searchers found "a den", or being exact - branches and clothes? Does that proves stage up? Or those branches and clothes were simply there for other purpose different than den?

I have written above as it is possible present logically all sequence of these actions of four. There it has been written for what it is intended den. Look the Answer # 73 for the Star man. Have found them because at first Mansi Kurikov has shown branches which left in depth of snow. And then they have started (use snow probes) have found out pieces of rags on drills of these probes. Then they have dug out this part of the area snow and have found den.

2. If we can see in your photo that the biggest snow is 1,5m , how come that in May 1959 the bodies were found under 4m of snow??? Does that mean that someone deriberately put more snow over these bodies to hide them from the searchers?

In my message the Answer № 92 for Nigel Evans I have written that the height of snow as 4 metrs, is emotional error. Besides, we dug out snow in other place from where these have been found four. It is nearby, but not there. If consider that for whom that is necessary that can be hidden only when it is precisely known to whom and what for it is necessary, and as it has such possibility, and as physical, and on duration of time of this action.
I so consider that it simply fantasy because no possibility and motivation for this purpose is not present. The nature is more powerful, than any man, therefore she can easily make all is much easier and faster, than any man or people group.
To fill snow there is no sense, it all the same sometime will thaw completely. By June in these parts all snow already thaws.

Thank you for your answers, they really help me to understand a lot of new things. So the "den" is actually just branches and clothes on the ground ,and they were covered by the snowfall later. This is a lot more logical than digging a den with bare hands .
I saw again the photo of snow level in the ravine with your red and blue lines. And now as I see it, you are absolutely right - snow level is a bit over the heads of the people,so yes it can't be more than 2,5m.
So why their snow probes in February didn't find the 4 bodies? I suppose the snow probes were only 2 meters long?
And your theory is about completely natural causes as I can assume?
Honestly I find the autopsy reports quite inconsistent compared to nowadays reports, but maybe this was the way they did it in the time with the knowledge available back then. Also when I see Zina,Dyatlov, Rustem and 2 Yurus in the morgue the look like people who were badly beaten. And their poses are not typical for hypothermia. Only Zina is close to fetal position. It is just my humble opinion of a young person without special knowledge in forensic medicine, only reading books and articles about this topic.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Clacon on April 10, 2019, 06:57:53 AM
I agree - it would explain the hand injuries, but what about their faces?? You wouldn't be digging with those?


I think the burn marks on the 2 Yuris' flesh is incredibly significant. No one else had burns. This has to mean something.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 10, 2019, 11:42:12 AM
I agree - it would explain the hand injuries, but what about their faces?? You wouldn't be digging with those?If they have to tunnel in to reach them then faces could get scratched, get abrasions.


I think the burn marks on the 2 Yuris' flesh is incredibly significant. No one else had burns. This has to mean something.Yes i'd agree that i'm 50/50 with it being a mundane accident with the fire or something more exotic.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Marchesk on April 23, 2019, 07:31:28 PM
So is the rav4 being found under 4-4.5 meters of snow correct, or this yet one more piece of evidence that's questionable?

I agree with WAB on the photo of the alleged Den find in that it was only about 2.5 meters of snow there.  There rest of the snow behind it is on top of the bank.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 24, 2019, 05:11:33 AM
So is the rav4 being found under 4-4.5 meters of snow correct, or this yet one more piece of evidence that's questionable?

I agree with WAB on the photo of the alleged Den find in that it was only about 2.5 meters of snow there.  There rest of the snow behind it is on top of the bank.
They removed the top metre in order to probe the remaining 2.5m so the den was under 3.5m. Probing found clothing which made them dig down and find the den. Exploring the area with 2.5m probes they found Lyudmila.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 24, 2020, 01:33:52 AM
For Zorah.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: PJ on May 07, 2020, 04:56:27 PM
Hi

As I write in my Intro, before I came here, I had two big questions: first - why they leave the tent(still not have answer for it, just some ideas) and second big question was how the group of 4 in ravine die, how they got the injuries - and now, after reading, analyzing photos and using own experience I got some idea what happen there..,

Nigel, first I will write something about your theory, read it and I agree only with one thing - THE RAVINE WAS FULL OF SNOW and my theory is mostly based on this fact. I do not agree with you the the bodies were moved in some natural way from the Den, if there will be any snow movement, the Den will be moved too, or at last some parts of it together with the bodies but it looks like intact so they not die in the Den. So no need of any extremely heavy object to passes over the top of the den, and it is very unlikely or even not possible that such a object will show up in this place.

WAB, the fact that few years ago, during winter with lots of snow the ravine wasn't completely covered in snow not mean that in 1959 was the same. Few facts:
- Snow in mountains never have the same deep everywhere, wind move a lot of snow from place to place creating huge snowdrifts/cornices. From photos in 1959 you could clearly see that the mountain slopes are with little snow but there is a lot in the forest close to the slopes. (do we have weather reports from that region from January 1959 to see how much snow fallen and what was the wind direction?)
-This days the forest around ravine is much more dense than in 1959. So it stops much more snow drift from the slopes, the snow is not blown down that far as back in 1959.
-Witness statements say about snow up to 6m deep in ravine, the photos show very deep snow as well.
 I think there is no doubts that the ravine, in 1959, was full of very deep snow

So what happened there:
They spend the night under the Cedar tree at the fire, two Yuris not survive the night(I have at last 3 options why they die, all 3 options could be combined together but will write about it somewhere else). At the morning they known that:
-they have retrieve some gear(shoes etc) from tent to be able to go down to civilization;
-they have to spend another night somewhere around and not in the tent as it is damaged;
So I am sure that they found naturally formed snow cave, created by cornice/snowdrift in the raving, something like on this photo:
(http://www.webdesignstudio.ie/images/snow_cave.jpg)

Why do I think like that:
- they build only floor for the den, so it have to be surrounded by natural walls, building floor on the snow in open space is a nonsense, it will not give any protection (much better will be stay under the Cedar)
-the Den floor was found under 4-5m of snow so there have to be lots of snow over it
-there was enough snow (I explained that earlier) for snow cave to be created in natural way
-they didn't have anything to dig in the snow, it is not possible to dig by bare hands in snow like that (generally you could dig by hands only in powder)

Now we have the Den under cornice/snowdrift, with floor that give isolation from the snow - good place to stay overnight. At some stage during the day Igor, Zinaida, Rustem departed to the tent with plans to bring necessary equipment, they never got there..
For sure the naturally formed cave where they made the Den wasn't the only snowdrift feature in the ravine, it was all full of snow, so I could imagine that just beloved the Den, towards the exit of the ravine (where the bodies were found) the snowdrift already created a snow-bridge over the ravine. When the snow is moved by wind it sometimes build-up creating empty space under it(snow cave) so it is possible that in this place was already snow-brige as this place was more exposed to wind. They could walk over it before many times but at some stage they could walk over all together, not aware that it is empty inside, and the bridge collapsed.
They fall down from 3m to the stream, they was tired, the fall happened suddenly so very easy of them could hit some stones below, hit each other, fall on each other(breaking ribs). Additionally after breaking the bridges some parts of it could fall on them - piece of wind-compressed snow 50cmX50cmx50cm could weight 50kg, if something of this size fall on someone that already lie down below could easily break ribs and create other injuries.
Facts supporting idea of creating snow-bridge:
-there was lots of snow- photos, witness statements etc
-wind moved big amounts of snow from mountain slopes down to the edge of forest
-they build the Den under the snow, so it have to be done in snow cave created in natural way, they were not able to dig in the snow. If the snow cave was created, the bride over ravine as well.
-personally, I have seen few times huge snow caves and snow bridges over ravines in forests, close to mountains slopes, I have seen something like that as well in early May in Ural during my hike. It is possible that something like that was created there as well.
Facts supporting idea of breaking down snow-bridge:
-they lie down in organized, natural way, after the fall they was in empty space but without possible exit so they just lie down and die there.
-they have injuries that could happens to people when they fall on each other, hit some rocks in the stream, and when big pieces of snow fall on them. I am sure that this four hikers and the rest members of the group got some injuries during the night walk down as well. It is not possible to hike 1.5km just in socks and not fall, making some injuries to face/hands is very possible, as well in the path of the hike down is few 5m high steps so it is possible that they fall/roll down from it and got some, not life threatening injuries.
Two edited pics of the 3D model how I see it:

(http://webdesignstudio.ie/images/ravine_1.jpg)

(http://webdesignstudio.ie/images/ravine_2.jpg)

Option 2: They were in the den when the roof collapse on them due to natural, own weight(what is possible), the amount of snow make all the fatal injuries. They manages to crawl out from it and just find shelter in some other place of ravine where they die. The fact is that Lyudmila was badly injured and she die almost immediately so is very unlikely that they will move her of from the Den.

Missing tongue, eyes and other soft tissues are not suspicious at all, it was eaten by small animals that are active all winter under the snow.

Ok, so this is my point of view on the ravine deaths. Questions or point out some facts that I am missing and that they discredit my idea, please...
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 07, 2020, 10:19:23 PM
Hi PJ.
The point of a snow cave is to raise the air temperature within it in order to survive the extreme cold. For this to work it has to have a specific construction = relatively small volume and an entrance at the base that can be blocked with snow except for a small gap to allow CO2 to escape with a small hole above to allow fresh air in. I'm sure Semyon was an expert and knew what to do.

They had knives to cut the poles for the den floor. These knives and poles, together with some fabric to drag snow away and make makeshift gloves would enable the dens construction. So i don't embrace the natural cave/ bridge theory. Also the extent of the injuries and the required force does not fit imo.

The bodies were found under 3.5m of snow?
Askenadzi states that the bodies were only an arms length from the den disagreeing with the case files that say 6m. Either way i think it is plausible that the snow and later water pushed them along away from the den's floor.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: PJ on May 08, 2020, 03:17:51 AM
Hi PJ.
They had knives to cut the poles for the den floor. These knives and poles, together with some fabric to drag snow away and make makeshift gloves would enable the dens construction. So i don't embrace the natural cave/ bridge theory. Also the extent of the injuries and the required force does not fit imo.

The bodies were found under 3.5m of snow?
Askenadzi states that the bodies were only an arms length from the den disagreeing with the case files that say 6m. Either way i think it is plausible that the snow and later water pushed them along away from the den's floor.

How deep was the bodies? Different sources say different things:
"May 4, 1959, 75 meters from the campfire, in the direction of the valley of the fourth tributary of Lozva, i.e. perpendicular to the way of the hikers from the tent, under a layer of snow 4-4.5 meters, the bodies of Dubinina, Zolotaryov, Thibeaux-Brignolle and Kolevatov were found."
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-384-387?lid=1

"All bodies are in the water. They were excavated from the snow from 2.5 meters to 2 meters deep"
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-341-343?rbid=17743

It is big difference, it could come from the fact that first they removed about 1m of snow to be able to use probes as they was too short for 4-4.5 meters. As well, the snow in May was already melting and settled so how deep it was in February nobody knows for sure.

I slept many times in snowcaves that I dig out in snowdrifts... Great place for spending night: warm and quiet. But to dig out cave for 2 people it takes easily 1h of very hard work for two people equipped in steel avalanche shovel. Even if I planned to sleep in snowcave I always carry lightweight tent just in case that I will not find proper snowdrift or I will be too tired to dig out the cave. And few times happens that I give out the comfort of sleeping in snowcave to sleeping in tent because I was tired to dig.
From my own experience, it is not possible to dig out snowcave with knives and sticks, specially for people that spend freezing night without proper clothes. It will be much easier for them just to put few long poles over the ravine and cover it with cedar green branches and some snow, not bad protection too with much less efforts.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Lanciere84 on May 08, 2020, 03:25:53 AM
interesting theory, so the bodies of the ravine were found further downstream than the water flow? I thought they had been found further upstream
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 08, 2020, 04:30:57 AM



How deep was the bodies? Different sources say different things:
"May 4, 1959, 75 meters from the campfire, in the direction of the valley of the fourth tributary of Lozva, i.e. perpendicular to the way of the hikers from the tent, under a layer of snow 4-4.5 meters, the bodies of Dubinina, Zolotaryov, Thibeaux-Brignolle and Kolevatov were found."
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-384-387?lid=1 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-384-387?lid=1)


"All bodies are in the water. They were excavated from the snow from 2.5 meters to 2 meters deep"
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-341-343?rbid=17743 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-341-343?rbid=17743)

It is big difference, it could come from the fact that first they removed about 1m of snow to be able to use probes as they was too short for 4-4.5 meters. As well, the snow in May was already melting and settled so how deep it was in February nobody knows for sure.
There are differing depths quoted but it's my understanding that in May they ordered extra long probes of 2.5m and then cleared the top layer of snow until these hit the bottom. This cleared snow being 1m deep. The photos show the work to clear the top layer.

I slept many times in snowcaves that I dig out in snowdrifts... Great place for spending night: warm and quiet. But to dig out cave for 2 people it takes easily 1h of very hard work for two people equipped in steel avalanche shovel. Even if I planned to sleep in snowcave I always carry lightweight tent just in case that I will not find proper snowdrift or I will be too tired to dig out the cave. And few times happens that I give out the comfort of sleeping in snowcave to sleeping in tent because I was tired to dig.
From my own experience, it is not possible to dig out snowcave with knives and sticks, specially for people that spend freezing night without proper clothes. It will be much easier for them just to put few long poles over the ravine and cover it with cedar green branches and some snow, not bad protection too with much less efforts.
You have more experience than me! But i think you're describing a grander type of cave where you can lie down? I'm thinking a small cube of say 1.5m for 4 people to huddle together. Perhaps they found a natural feature and exploited it. We'll never know. But the den floor exists and the bodies were close by. So unless it is a fabrication they built it. The rescue team stated that the fire should have continued to burn for considerably longer so it is assumed it was extinguished when they moved to the den.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 08, 2020, 04:43:51 AM
Just remembered, Nicolai was found with his jacket unzipped and his gloves in his pockets suggesting he was warm.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: PJ on May 08, 2020, 05:38:37 AM
From photos looks like the floor of the Den  has size 2m x 1.5m or something like that, so exactly same size as I usually dig out to have comfortable sleep and it take about 1h to do it. I made it about 1.5m high as well from comfortable sitting. How high was inside the Den nobody knows...
The floor of the Den is in the middle of the snow so it is not possible that the bodies were moved from it further down the raving by water. As well the bodies was found in organized positions if they will be moved after dead by anything like water or snow they will be messed up. It is clear that they die where they were found.

But there is no doubts that the bodies was under 4m of snow.. I just looked very carefully on photos, and now I know where the bodies were but do not have idea where was the Den...
(http://www.webdesignstudio.ie/images/ravine_3.jpg)
(http://www.webdesignstudio.ie/images/ravine_4.jpg)
links to original images:
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-347.jpg
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-348.jpg
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Kolevatov-Zolotaryov-Thibeaux-Brignolle-post-mortem-3_1.jpg
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-367.jpg
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-346.jpg

so was the Dan somewhere higher or almost in the same place as bodies? Or even over the bodies??
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 08, 2020, 06:29:03 AM
From my skiing experience i've seen snow follow water courses (ravines) that seems to have slowly "flowed" over the winter so i'm happy that this and the force and buoyancy of spring water could "shuffle" the bodies along from the point of death to another place in a tight knit group.

I don't think your 4m vs my 3.5m is very important.
It's a fair comment to say that the photos don't easily locate the den, all we have is eye witness descriptions that contradict each other. (1m vs 6m).
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: PJ on May 08, 2020, 07:33:55 AM
From my skiing experience i've seen snow follow water courses (ravines) that seems to have slowly "flowed" over the winter so i'm happy that this and the force and buoyancy of spring water could "shuffle" the bodies along from the point of death to another place in a tight knit group.
I agree that the bodies could be moved by spring water from place to place all together but it sounds not possible that they was moved from the Den floor without moving the floor as well.

I don't think your 4m vs my 3.5m is very important.
It's a fair comment to say that the photos don't easily locate the den, all we have is eye witness descriptions that contradict each other. (1m vs 6m).
Sure, 4m or 3.5m do not matter at all. It is much more important to find out where was the Den. From Radiograms from May 1959 looks like that they not found the bodies very close to the den. But there is no info about 6m anywhere. There is just info on the website:
"20 m from the den, a probe 4 m deep came out with a fragment of flesh. They started to dig. Dubinina's body was found in the ravine on may 5th, 1959."
https://dyatlovpass.com/the-den
but there is no source for it. From where the 20m comes?

EDIT:
I found:
"Up the creek in a distance of six meters along the tracks a den was found at a depth of 3 to 2.5 meters"
it is from Protocol of inspection of the scene where the bodies were found https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-341-343?rbid=17743
the 6m is written in text and map/plan is made as well. So is more likely 6m, I cant find anywhere info about 1m...
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 08, 2020, 07:46:59 AM
I agree that the bodies could be moved by spring water from place to place all together but it sounds not possible that they was moved from the Den floor without moving the floor as well.
It would be possible if the snow "flows" down the side of the ravine as well as along it's length. This sideways flow would be assisted by the meltwaters removing the snow at the bottom.


Sure, 4m or 3.5m do not matter at all. It is much more important to find out where was the Den. From Radiograms from May 1959 looks like that they not found the bodies very close to the den. But there is no info about 6m anywhere. There is just info on the website:
"20 m from the den, a probe 4 m deep came out with a fragment of flesh. They started to dig. Dubinina's body was found in the ravine on may 5th, 1959."
https://dyatlovpass.com/the-den (https://dyatlovpass.com/the-den)
but there is no source for it. From where the 20m comes?
That seems erroneous, as you've discovered it PM teddy and if she agrees she'll edit it.
The 6m comes from here - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-341-343?rbid=17743 but n.b. Askinadzi disagrees and says 1m.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sparrow on May 12, 2020, 04:50:43 AM
 dunno1
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 12, 2020, 06:14:52 AM
dunno1
Maybe everyone agrees with my theory?  loco1
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: PJ on May 12, 2020, 03:37:48 PM
Maybe everyone agrees with my theory?  loco1

Nigel,
No, and yes...

So 100% NO to the idea of extremely heavy object to passes over the top of the den. Object like that will leave many marks all around, mostly in damaged small trees(driving over it) that will be spotted during the search/investigation. And probably object like that will get stuck in the ravine till summer as well.

But 100% YES to the fact that they die in the Den or Ravine due to injuries from snow/den roof collapse. Just few numbers: the den floor was about 3m2 (2m X 1.5m), they found it under 3.5m of snow so if they have 1.5m height inside, it mean the roof was about 2m. Wind packed snow weights about 350-400kg/1m3, so just take the 350kg/1m3.
Calculations: 2m x 1.5m x 2m = 6m3(volume of snow over the heads in the Den). 6m3 x 350kg = 2100kg... over 2tons of snow could fall on them suddenly from the height of 1.5m, I think it is enough to make deadly injuries like broken ribs etc. Even if this roof broken into few pieces before impact on them it will be enough to kill.
After being crushed they die under the snow in Den and was moved by water/snow flow few meters down(as you suggest) or they managed to dig out from under the pieces of snow and just crawled out a bit where they die. I do not really matter.

After studied all picture from ravine, investigation reports and witness statements I believe that conditions in the ravine could cause the dead of this 4 hikers without any help from third person.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 12, 2020, 11:55:34 PM
over 2tons of snow could fall on them suddenly from the height of 1.5m, I think it is enough to make deadly injuries like broken ribs etc. Even if this roof broken into few pieces before impact on them it will be enough to kill.
Hi there PJ, it's good to see new posters walking through old paths... The problem with the "two tons of snow roof dropping 1m plus" theory is that it is inconceivable that this would not result in broken limbs/necks. But of course there aren't any. That's the advantage of the "approaching object" theory, as it got close the den walls would deform pushing (possibly gently) the victims into position to be shortly followed by a crushing force transmitted through a layer of snow which although it squeezes hard (deformed throats) does not apply snapping forces except on the main volumes of the body directly underneath, namely two rib cages and a skull. The skull being protected from more extensive crushing by the two rib cages. Semyon's shoulder blade fractures fit with him lying on his back on top of the poles of the den floor.
If you want to consider a snow mass theory it could be worth considering a "snow slip" where all the snow in the ravine slides forward a short distance but with enough mass to crush. But that doesn't give you the strength of impact that seems to be the case here or it's locality, as i've shown the best fit is that this crushing force is confined to a narrow width so that Alexander escapes broken bones. The 30cm width of a tracked vehicle being perfect!
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sparrow on May 13, 2020, 01:49:27 AM
Has anyone ever wondered why the rav4 didn't have frost bite?  Could it be that they died fairly quickly,  before they had a chance to get it?  nea1 
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 13, 2020, 05:10:40 AM
Has anyone ever wondered why the rav4 didn't have frost bite?  Could it be that they died fairly quickly,  before they had a chance to get it?  nea1
Because shortly after leaving the tent they split into two groups, the rav4 making a swift descent to the shelter of the forest and a fire. The other group got whacked probably by a missile, three died on the slope but were quickly sheltered from the windchill by snowdrift forming around them. The 2 Yuris (YuriK having a badly burnt leg) struggled on slowly. By staying erect they got the wind chill the worst.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Tony on May 13, 2020, 11:22:22 AM
It seems extremely unlikely that a solitary, tracked military vehicle would be wandering around in such a heavy-forested area on that particularly cold and windy night. It also seems unlikely that searchers would find so much activity from the hikers themselves but no obvious signs that would have certainly been left by a several ton tracked military vehicle. I could be wrong but it would seem that any vehicle (tracked or otherwise) would have an extremely tough time in deep snow. I've gotten stuck numerous times on a snowmobile and it's no easy task getting them out. Just think how easy it would be for a large vehicle to get stuck and how hard it would be to get out.

Both the medical expert that conducted the autopsies and a recent examination of Zolotoryov by a forensic pathologist concluded that the resulting injures were cause by an instant overwhelming force (similar to that of a blast wave or car crash) and not by a slow compressing force (like a large vehicle passing over top).
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Tony on May 13, 2020, 11:48:21 AM
Maybe everyone agrees with my theory?  loco1

Nigel,
No, and yes...

So 100% NO to the idea of extremely heavy object to passes over the top of the den. Object like that will leave many marks all around, mostly in damaged small trees(driving over it) that will be spotted during the search/investigation. And probably object like that will get stuck in the ravine till summer as well.

But 100% YES to the fact that they die in the Den or Ravine due to injuries from snow/den roof collapse. Just few numbers: the den floor was about 3m2 (2m X 1.5m), they found it under 3.5m of snow so if they have 1.5m height inside, it mean the roof was about 2m. Wind packed snow weights about 350-400kg/1m3, so just take the 350kg/1m3.
Calculations: 2m x 1.5m x 2m = 6m3(volume of snow over the heads in the Den). 6m3 x 350kg = 2100kg... over 2tons of snow could fall on them suddenly from the height of 1.5m, I think it is enough to make deadly injuries like broken ribs etc. Even if this roof broken into few pieces before impact on them it will be enough to kill.
After being crushed they die under the snow in Den and was moved by water/snow flow few meters down(as you suggest) or they managed to dig out from under the pieces of snow and just crawled out a bit where they die. I do not really matter.

After studied all picture from ravine, investigation reports and witness statements I believe that conditions in the ravine could cause the dead of this 4 hikers without any help from third person.

There is no doubt that snow is heavy. That said, the overwhelming cause of death in a snow shelter collapse is asphyxiation. I have yet to hear/read of an instance where someone died in a snow shelter collapse as a result of anything other than asphyxiation. Snow shelters tend to collapse in chunks rather than a single, massive slab of snow. Also, it seems your numbers are based on the snowpack when the hikers were found and not what it would have been at the time of their injuries - all this assuming that they were in a snow shelter when the injuries occurred in the first place (which we don't know). The medical examiner that conducted the autopsies stated that Thibeaux-Brignolle could have been alive for several hours after his head injuries. If this were the case, and his injuries were cause by collapsing snow, he more than likely would have died of asphyxiation.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: PJ on May 13, 2020, 03:59:06 PM
The 350kg/m3 is for the time when they die, in May the weight of snow was about 700-800kg/m3. Yes, snow is very heavy, except the powder - freshly fallen snow.
I agree that overwhelming cause of death in a snow cave collapse is asphyxiation, to be honest I never read about dead in snow cave from injuries but I know one case when person got serious back injuries in a snow cave collapse, this case was not fatal. As well, in all cases that are reported as asphyxiation there is usually no info if there was some other, non life-threatening injuries.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sparrow on May 14, 2020, 12:13:31 AM
Nigel, if it was a missile, why wasn't there any shrapnel found in any of the bodies?  If it could cause major injuries like broken bones when it exploded, wouldn't the fragments of the missile  have left injuries too?  If the concussion from the missile did cause broken bones, why weren't there more?  I would think that that kind of concussion would also have caused internal injuries (not counting the ones from the broken bones themselves).   bang1
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sparrow on May 14, 2020, 12:41:49 AM
Could someone explain to me why Simon,Lyuda and Nicholas had hemorrhages in the skin?  In re-reading the autopsies of those three, I found it mentioned. I don't think any of the three had any . thumb1 neg1
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 14, 2020, 03:27:40 AM
It seems extremely unlikely that a solitary, tracked military vehicle would be wandering around in such a heavy-forested area on that particularly cold and windy night. If the cause of the DPI is military (missile) activity then it's somewhat more likely....

Both the medical expert that conducted the autopsies and a recent examination of Zolotoryov by a forensic pathologist concluded that the resulting injures were cause by an instant overwhelming force (similar to that of a blast wave or car crash) and not by a slow compressing force (like a large vehicle passing over top).As said several times now, the approaching vehicle would deform the structure of the den pushing the victims into position and collapsing the roof creating a crater. The front corner of the vehicle would fall into the crater "punching" the snow below it. Ditto the rear of the vehicle creating two events. At least one pathologist who has looked at the case believed that two events best explained Lyudmila's injuries.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 14, 2020, 07:57:12 AM
Nigel, if it was a missile, why wasn't there any shrapnel found in any of the bodies?  If it could cause major injuries like broken bones when it exploded, wouldn't the fragments of the missile  have left injuries too?  If the concussion from the missile did cause broken bones, why weren't there more?  I would think that that kind of concussion would also have caused internal injuries (not counting the ones from the broken bones themselves).   bang1
It would all depend on the distance away from the group. If the missile explosion(s) were far enough away and upwind then only small lightweight metal fragments travelling at windspeed would reach the victims creating superficial cuts and wounds. (Just like Zinaida (hand), Igor (face), YuriK (thigh) had. Ditto for fuel components creating chemical burns (Zinaida nitric acid?) YuriK (both hypergolic components).
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Tony on May 14, 2020, 11:01:40 AM
It seems extremely unlikely that a solitary, tracked military vehicle would be wandering around in such a heavy-forested area on that particularly cold and windy night. If the cause of the DPI is military (missile) activity then it's somewhat more likely....

Both the medical expert that conducted the autopsies and a recent examination of Zolotoryov by a forensic pathologist concluded that the resulting injures were cause by an instant overwhelming force (similar to that of a blast wave or car crash) and not by a slow compressing force (like a large vehicle passing over top).As said several times now, the approaching vehicle would deform the structure of the den pushing the victims into position and collapsing the roof creating a crater. The front corner of the vehicle would fall into the crater "punching" the snow below it. Ditto the rear of the vehicle creating two events. At least one pathologist who has looked at the case believed that two events best explained Lyudmila's injuries.

Ah, ok - I see. I guess it is possible. But there was no evidence of a missile or tracked military vehicle in the area. All we can go off is what is in the case files and there is nothing in the case files to suggest that a large, heavy track vehicle was roaming around the area.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 15, 2020, 04:04:21 AM

Ah, ok - I see. I guess it is possible.


No i would submit that it is a perfect fit for the evidence. That doesn't mean it happened of course and there's the minor matter of no evidence of a tracked vehicle. But if you assume that they died under the snow then this is as perfect an explanation as you'll get and this is for an event that defies explanation.



But there was no evidence of a missile or tracked military vehicle in the area. All we can go off is what is in the case files and there is nothing in the case files to suggest that a large, heavy track vehicle was roaming around the area.


Well there's no evidence for any theory except perhaps ball lightning. N.B. a ball lightning roller would be a good substitute for a tracked vehicle.



Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 15, 2020, 04:17:03 AM
Just a small addition to my last post. Askinadzi states that whilst they were deployed at the DP in 1959 the official explanation for the incident was that is was caused by a missile, but workers such as himself assumed this was a cover story.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: RidgeWatcher on July 17, 2020, 02:11:04 PM
Niglel,

I have been in a 500 year flood in El Paso, Texas August 1, 2006. I learned two things. Water can do almost anything and all water has memory, it doesn't care what humans have built to constrain it and it will follow its ancestors down a specific geological path. I have no doubt that a stream if it widened over an area of a meter X 2-3cm by spring could move a water logged body over time.

I do have a question, if anyone can answer this. In Alaska we had what we called Williwaws and Chinook winds (Foehn) and these could cause the snow and later ice to become treacherous. I do not know if the Urals have these phenomena, being that they are very interior mountains. If you hd a Chinook wind, then a freeze and then a subsequent Chinook wind then you could literally create an ice conveyor belt apparatus under the soft surface snow that moves quite well.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 18, 2020, 12:29:07 AM
Niglel,

I have been in a 500 year flood in El Paso, Texas August 1, 2006. I learned two things. Water can do almost anything and all water has memory, it doesn't care what humans have built to constrain it and it will follow its ancestors down a specific geological path. I have no doubt that a stream if it widened over an area of a meter X 2-3cm by spring could move a water logged body over time.

I do have a question, if anyone can answer this. In Alaska we had what we called Williwaws and Chinook winds (Foehn) and these could cause the snow and later ice to become treacherous. I do not know if the Urals have these phenomena, being that they are very interior mountains. If you hd a Chinook wind, then a freeze and then a subsequent Chinook wind then you could literally create an ice conveyor belt apparatus under the soft surface snow that moves quite well.
Sounds like you're discussing graupel which i understand to be ubiquitous - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graupel#Graupel_and_avalanches
I've wondered if the ravine snow could have suddenly "slipped" and caused the crushing. This would help explain the localisation, i.e. only upper body fractures.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 19, 2020, 04:16:44 AM
Just a post to add some relevant thoughts..

In Nicolai's autopsy - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-352-354?rbid=17743 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-352-354?rbid=17743) Vozrozhdenny notes the bath skin which i assume = wrinkled but makes a special comment on the wound on the left side of the face as having "convoluted borders" - "On the upper left jaw there is a defect in the soft tissue, which has an irregular oval shape with a size of 3 x 4 cm with drawn out, convoluted borders exposing the alveolar edge of the upper jaw"..

This all fits very well with the "crushed narrative", his head was pushed onto the floor of the den with the left side of his face in contact with the poles. The crushing force drives the left side so hard against the poles that the the upper jaw cuts through the upper cheek and fractures the right side of the skull and base etc. The interesting bit is why "convoluted"?
.

And a good answer is the twigs making up the seats which are by this point scattered across the poles..

What is still unanswered is the lack of bruising on the right side of the head.  The autopsy notes - "There is a 10 x 12 cm blue-green diffuse ecchymoma in the area of the right shoulder on the antero-internal surface at the lower middle and bottom thirds. In the area of the ecchymomare is hemorrhaging into the surrounding soft tissue"..

So the shoulder bruises but the scalp doesn't.... A good theory perhaps is the cold, the skin on the shoulder is protected by clothing but the scalp isn't and so the respective capillaries have a substantial difference in blood volume and hence behave quite differently when tested by pressure. Another theory perhaps is that the crushing to the skull wasn't instantaneously applied but more gradual whilst the shoulder was more immediate (multiple events). At least one pathologist attributes Lyudmila's fractures to multiple events.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 19, 2020, 01:15:48 PM
But just thought wrt multiple events. Semyon was holding a notebook and pencil? So if that was the case at the "event" then either it was instantaneous with no time to react or it's a sick joke by their killers?
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sparrow on July 19, 2020, 11:23:41 PM
When I first saw that picture, I thought it was staged by one of the people at the scene as a morbid joke.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 20, 2020, 01:22:48 AM
When I first saw that picture, I thought it was staged by one of the people at the scene as a morbid joke.
I think you're refering to photo #425? If you look carefully in #416 you can see Semyon's right hand holding a thin rod like object and #414, #415 show this object in various positions appropriate to the arm's range of movement. Presumably they moved the arm as they worked to free the bodies.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sparrow on July 20, 2020, 01:50:26 AM
Hello Nigel. 
If they were able to move his arm (body thawed), then would not his fingers also be thawed?  If they were, then his fingers wouldn't be able to hold the pencil and notebook. Just a question.
I am going to go back and look at the pictures now.  I just wanted to write this post before I forgot.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 20, 2020, 02:57:39 AM
The bodies were in running water for some time so definately thawed. Post mortem the grip would relax but the fingers still trap the pencil perhaps? If not it would be long gone downstream?


When i move from my pad to my laptop the numbering scheme for the photos changes?So to be clear -
 (https://i.ibb.co/pvD495V/Dyatlov-pass-Kolevatov-Zolotaryov-bodies-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C5dVTDC)


.
and in situ -

 (https://i.ibb.co/BwFCY4s/Semyon-holding-pencil.png) (https://ibb.co/fQLxT80)
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sparrow on July 20, 2020, 04:48:59 AM
If you look at Simon's right hand in your top photo, his fingers are curled but not tightly.  I see what you are talking about in the bottom photo but I am having trouble seeing that as a pencil.  It does not appear to be near his right hand which would be underneath him.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 20, 2020, 05:17:39 AM
If you look at Simon's right hand in your top photo, his fingers are curled but not tightly.  I see what you are talking about in the bottom photo but I am having trouble seeing that as a pencil.  It does not appear to be near his right hand which would be underneath him.
The bottom image is a decent magnification of a low res b&w photo but i can see dark fingers on a dark hand that is in an unnatural but possible position (palm facing the camera) near the pelvis (this is a corpse). The "top of the pencil" even conforms, looking like a tapering cone of a lighter colour as one would expect. But all of this is borderline at the limit of course.

Wrt a morbid joke. I think it very unlikely. This was a very high profile investigation with the state spending a fortune to supply a large team (30?) lead by a colonel for months by helicopters, a squad of KGB permanently onsite always wearing their pistols. Other military style groups making flying visits and never introduced to the rest of the team.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: eurocentric on July 20, 2020, 07:00:06 AM
My view of this den is that after 2 had died by the fire of their injuries, and their clothes had been reappropriated for warmth, the rest knew that they couldn't maintain the fire and survive out in the open, or keep climbing trees to snap off thinner branches (mention is made of someone skinning themselves doing so), so they decided on another course of action, to make a dug-out in soft snow to act as an insulating 'igloo', lined with the material they would otherwise have burnt.

The most injured were put there, and afterwards Dyatlov and 2 others attempted to return to the tent to get what they all needed for survival, and more urgently any pain relief and medical kit they might have in their rucksacks, but they perished of hypothermia and exhaustion en route, and that sealed the fate of the badly injured in the den.

They would have chosen the ravine site not only because of access to water but because the water had already cut into the drift, so they could dig in underneath it. These are injured people without tools so their bare hands would need to excavate soft snow.

Later, and having been hurriedly constructed and not maintained, the weight of additional snowfall caused a collapse, burying the already dead occupants, and the freeze-thaw with running water allowed for localised decomposition of the head and its soft tissues.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 20, 2020, 07:07:31 AM

The most injured were put there, the den had four seats? People with flail chests don't sit up.... Four seats equals four able bodied people? and afterwards Dyatlov and 2 others attempted to return to the tent to get what they all needed for survival, and more urgently any pain relief and medical kit they might have in their rucksacks, but they perished of hypothermia and exhaustion en route, and that sealed the fate of the badly injured in the den.

Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: eurocentric on July 20, 2020, 07:18:13 AM

The most injured were put there, the den had four seats? People with flail chests don't sit up.... Four seats equals four able bodied people? and afterwards Dyatlov and 2 others attempted to return to the tent to get what they all needed for survival, and more urgently any pain relief and medical kit they might have in their rucksacks, but they perished of hypothermia and exhaustion en route, and that sealed the fate of the badly injured in the den.


Actually the ideal position for most chest injuries is to sit up. The pain would increase if you attempted to lie down, and in those conditions that would also increase the risk of hypothermia.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 20, 2020, 07:46:47 AM

The most injured were put there, the den had four seats? People with flail chests don't sit up.... Four seats equals four able bodied people? and afterwards Dyatlov and 2 others attempted to return to the tent to get what they all needed for survival, and more urgently any pain relief and medical kit they might have in their rucksacks, but they perished of hypothermia and exhaustion en route, and that sealed the fate of the badly injured in the den.


Actually the ideal position for most chest injuries is to sit up. The pain would increase if you attempted to lie down, and in those conditions that would also increase the risk of hypothermia.
Everything i read about flail chests discusses the extreme pain, i can't see Semyon sat up thinking about what to put in his notebook with a busted rib cage. Lyudmila would have died quickly and there wouldn't have been any need to protect her from the cold so in your narrative she would have joined the 2 Yuris?

Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 20, 2020, 08:14:05 AM
Just another post to add some more thoughts :-
Lyudmila -
Alexander -Nicolai -
Semyon -
All four of them display head injuries consistent with one side of the head being pressed against the ground hard enough to break the skin and alter the margin of the wound. Semyon seems to share similarity with Nicolai - drawn out, convoluted borders versus thinned, slightly rumpled edge. Alexander has - pressed smooth drawn-out margins.
.
All signs of a similar pressure?
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 20, 2020, 01:18:31 PM
But just thought wrt multiple events. Semyon was holding a notebook and pencil? So if that was the case at the "event" then either it was instantaneous with no time to react or it's a sick joke by their killers?

There seems to have occurred a lot of Theories to this ; The ravine deaths - a theory  !  ? 
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 20, 2020, 02:18:15 PM
But just thought wrt multiple events. Semyon was holding a notebook and pencil? So if that was the case at the "event" then either it was instantaneous with no time to react or it's a sick joke by their killers?

There seems to have occurred a lot of Theories to this ; The ravine deaths - a theory  !  ?
That's what i'm doing here, studying the evidence and proposing theories and hopefully generating some intelligent discussion on them. The main proposition in this thread is that they were crushed under the snow. The next step is to examine the evidence to try and detail this more to support or deny that. One instantaneous event versus multiple events. Big difference. E.g. based on my posts today, i'd say the autopsies are saying that the head injuries rule out a falling theory. Unless the same injuries are post mortem.

So what's your opinion? Or are you not interested enough to have one? Do you just pop in to ask other people why they're constructing theories on how it happened? Takes all sorts.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Ting on July 20, 2020, 02:58:52 PM
Which is the more plausible set of events:-
1) A fall - broken rib cage - reach for notepad and pencil - die - pencil still in hand.
2) Reach for pencil and paper - snow fall - broken rib cage - die - pencil still in hand.
3) Die - someone else places pencil/paper.

1) Entails an agonising set of movements if even possible to reach for pencil/paper. Although this might be the effort which finishes Semyon off, hence no writing.
2) Entails some coincidence that just at the moment you are about to write something probably revealing, heavy snow falls on you. Although the snowfall might be so quick as to pin the pencil/paper in place.
3) Entails a sick mind but why would they then leave the camera around his neck. I notice the camera is not in a strange position which you might expect from a fall - e.g., twisted around his body or over his head.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 20, 2020, 03:43:25 PM
Which is the more plausible set of events:-
1) A fall - broken rib cage - reach for notepad and pencil - die - pencil still in hand.
2) Reach for pencil and paper - snow fall - broken rib cage - die - pencil still in hand.
3) Die - someone else places pencil/paper.

1) Entails an agonising set of movements if even possible to reach for pencil/paper. Although this might be the effort which finishes Semyon off, hence no writing.
2) Entails some coincidence that just at the moment you are about to write something probably revealing, heavy snow falls on you. Although the snowfall might be so quick as to pin the pencil/paper in place.
3) Entails a sick mind but why would they then leave the camera around his neck. I notice the camera is not in a strange position which you might expect from a fall - e.g., twisted around his body or over his head.
What's more plausible if all four victims get a gash on the side of the head consistent with the head being pushed so hard into the ground that the skin splits
Remember this is all four.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 21, 2020, 03:09:48 PM
But just thought wrt multiple events. Semyon was holding a notebook and pencil? So if that was the case at the "event" then either it was instantaneous with no time to react or it's a sick joke by their killers?

There seems to have occurred a lot of Theories to this ; The ravine deaths - a theory  !  ?
That's what i'm doing here, studying the evidence and proposing theories and hopefully generating some intelligent discussion on them. The main proposition in this thread is that they were crushed under the snow. The next step is to examine the evidence to try and detail this more to support or deny that. One instantaneous event versus multiple events. Big difference. E.g. based on my posts today, i'd say the autopsies are saying that the head injuries rule out a falling theory. Unless the same injuries are post mortem.

So what's your opinion? Or are you not interested enough to have one? Do you just pop in to ask other people why they're constructing theories on how it happened? Takes all sorts.

Apologies Nigel, because your contribution is important to this Forum. I posted this in The Rav 4 Topic as well, last night.

Well I am reading with interest the various possibilities. The Event at the Ravine is obviously critical to ever being able to solve the Dyatlov Mystery. However, just a reminder about the position of Dubinina. Her final resting place is in a stream. The Authorities, who we can not really trust to have given all of the information or evidence, push the DECOMPOSITION THEORY and PREDATOR THEORY to explain the missing Eyes and Tongue and Facial Tissue. Low temperature slows the rate of decomposition.  Predators would eat away any body parts not just the parts that we see. Therefore the body of Dubinina should be very putrified and well eaten.  But that is not what we see with the body of Dubinina. In fact we dont see it with any of the bodies of the Dyatlov Group. What we do see is very unusual injuries not caused by decomposition or putrefaction.
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Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: eurocentric on July 21, 2020, 04:31:02 PM

Everything i read about flail chests discusses the extreme pain, i can't see Semyon sat up thinking about what to put in his notebook with a busted rib cage. Lyudmila would have died quickly and there wouldn't have been any need to protect her from the cold so in your narrative she would have joined the 2 Yuris?

I can easily imagine a dying man wishing to write a short note to his most loved, to be found with his body, in the same way submariners in the Kursk did. This note may well have solved the entire mystery by explaining what happened.

But I'm not sure we should rely on the "pencil/pad" idea, which seems to have been added to a rescuer's account years later. It also seems too perfectly timed that at the very moment he was sat or laid down thinking what to put, a tracked vehicle or tank went overhead in the middle of nowhere, and did so without leaving any tracks or signs of crushing around the collapsed zone, or that when fleeing the tent he had taken a pencil/pad (unless these were already in his pockets).

You're automatically assuming Lyudmila's injuries were all delivered at peak severity immediately, and therefore she could not have managed to walk a  mile down a mountain pass. But it's possible she initially had fractures which weren't separated, during whatever calamity struck them and she managed to stagger down the pass in pain. But downhill, in the dark, and without anything to steady herself, and the wind behind them, she may have had a series of falls/rolls, and at some point, since her rib cage wasn't able to flex, a sharp end of bone then punctured the lining of her heart.

Another possibility to explain broken ribs on either her or another hiker, is that someone fell on one of them at the cedars while scaling trees for firewood. They've been after thinner branches to tear off at the growing point, I noted such ends visible in a photo of the den material, and these repeated and exhausting climbs to obtain material which burnt out quickly will also IMO have caused the (pressure) sores on Dyatlov's ankles, rather than him being, as another theory goes, bound (and by only his legs).

Finally, if all 4 in the den had been able-bodied until driven over, then unless they all assessed the danger up at the tent had passed, which if a meterological phenomena it might, then I feel they would have all gone back together, for safety in numbers. They wouldn't send two men, one without shoes and certain to get frostbite, and a woman, to face off against the military/tribesmen/yeti/alien and recover all their things needed to survive. To me this indicates the 4 were the worst injured already, and what had been built in a soft snow drift worked at that stage as a triage.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sparrow on July 22, 2020, 12:33:03 AM
When I went back over the autopsies of the rav4, it was mentioned that Simon, Nicholas and Lyuda had " hemorrhages with presence of brown pigment". To my understanding this means they were bleeding while still alive. This is taken from Launton Anderson's interpretation of the Russian autopsy reports.  If that means there were open bleeding wounds (not bruises?) then those individual wounds would be...

Other than Simon's and Lyuda's eyes being missing, I am not sure where they were bleeding from. Nickolas' was, I believe, around his mouth.

Of course I could have misinterpreted the interpretation and if I have, someone please tell me.

Can we assume that the English interpretation is accurate and that everything that should have been mentioned in the autopsies was mentioned?  Do our Russian friends on this site think it is accurate? If so,  is there anyone on this forum who could tell us if we are interpreting the autopsy reports correctly? It would really be nice to know.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 22, 2020, 02:26:08 AM
When I went back over the autopsies of the rav4, it was mentioned that Simon, Nicholas and Lyuda had " hemorrhages with presence of brown pigment". I can't find any examples of this in the translations onsite? To my understanding this means they were bleeding while still alive. This is taken from Launton Anderson's interpretation of the Russian autopsy reports.  If that means there were open bleeding wounds (not bruises?) then those individual wounds would be...

Other than Simon's and Lyuda's eyes being missing, I am not sure where they were bleeding from. Nickolas' was, I believe, around his mouth.

Of course I could have misinterpreted the interpretation and if I have, someone please tell me.

Can we assume that the English interpretation is accurate and that everything that should have been mentioned in the autopsies was mentioned?  Do our Russian friends on this site think it is accurate? If so,  is there anyone on this forum who could tell us if we are interpreting the autopsy reports correctly? It would really be nice to know. You can do it yourself? The Russian original documents are online - https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/ (https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/) just drop a page into Google translate and bingo.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sparrow on July 22, 2020, 02:39:16 AM
Thanks again Nigel.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 22, 2020, 02:43:14 AM

Everything i read about flail chests discusses the extreme pain, i can't see Semyon sat up thinking about what to put in his notebook with a busted rib cage. Lyudmila would have died quickly and there wouldn't have been any need to protect her from the cold so in your narrative she would have joined the 2 Yuris?

I can easily imagine a dying man wishing to write a short note to his most loved, to be found with his body, in the same way submariners in the Kursk did. This note may well have solved the entire mystery by explaining what happened.

But I'm not sure we should rely on the "pencil/pad" idea, which seems to have been added to a rescuer's account years later. It also seems too perfectly timed that at the very moment he was sat or laid down thinking what to put, a tracked vehicle or tank went overhead in the middle of nowhere, and did so without leaving any tracks or signs of crushing around the collapsed zone, or that when fleeing the tent he had taken a pencil/pad (unless these were already in his pockets). The photo of him lying with Alexander shows the pencil and notebook in his hands?

You're automatically assuming Lyudmila's injuries were all delivered at peak severity immediately, and therefore she could not have managed to walk a  mile down a mountain pass. But it's possible she initially had fractures which weren't separated, during whatever calamity struck them and she managed to stagger down the pass in pain. But downhill, in the dark, and without anything to steady herself, and the wind behind them, she may have had a series of falls/rolls, and at some point, since her rib cage wasn't able to flex, a sharp end of bone then punctured the lining of her heart. And the same for Nicolai, and the same for Semyon? I don't think so. Even more improbable than the falling theory?

Another possibility to explain broken ribs on either her or another hiker, is that someone fell on one of them at the cedars while scaling trees for firewood. They've been after thinner branches to tear off at the growing point, I noted such ends visible in a photo of the den material, and these repeated and exhausting climbs to obtain material which burnt out quickly will also IMO have caused the (pressure) sores on Dyatlov's ankles, rather than him being, as another theory goes, bound (and by only his legs). Imo the only way to explain the rav4 injuries is by (1) a crushing pressure exerted through snow that doesn't break limbs but forces the major volumes of the body (head/chest) down so hard that skin splits, throats bend, and the bone structures protecting those major volumes fracture. OR (2) multiple events = killing by humans or other.

Finally, if all 4 in the den had been able-bodied until driven over, then unless they all assessed the danger up at the tent had passed, which if a meterological phenomena it might, then I feel they would have all gone back together, for safety in numbers. They wouldn't send two men, one without shoes and certain to get frostbite, and a woman, to face off against the military/tribesmen/yeti/alien and recover all their things needed to survive. To me this indicates the 4 were the worst injured already, and what had been built in a soft snow drift worked at that stage as a triage. I have a preference for Zinaida, Rustem and Igor never making it down. The two Yuris just made it alive having been injured on the way and then expired. The two best dressed men never attempted to return because as far as they knew they were the only ones left and preferred the shelter of the den.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 22, 2020, 02:49:19 AM
Apologies Nigel, because your contribution is important to this Forum. I posted this in The Rav 4 Topic as well, last night.

Well I am reading with interest the various possibilities. The Event at the Ravine is obviously critical to ever being able to solve the Dyatlov Mystery. However, just a reminder about the position of Dubinina. Her final resting place is in a stream. The Authorities, who we can not really trust to have given all of the information or evidence, push the DECOMPOSITION THEORY and PREDATOR THEORY to explain the missing Eyes and Tongue and Facial Tissue. Low temperature slows the rate of decomposition.  Predators would eat away any body parts not just the parts that we see. Therefore the body of Dubinina should be very putrified and well eaten.  But that is not what we see with the body of Dubinina. In fact we dont see it with any of the bodies of the Dyatlov Group. What we do see is very unusual injuries not caused by decomposition or putrefaction.
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The "crushed theory" would have to consider evidence such as - sunken or missing eyes, parted skin at eyebrows exposing bone as signs of pressure. But the decomposition theory is very reasonable as well of course.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2020, 02:37:33 PM
When I went back over the autopsies of the rav4, it was mentioned that Simon, Nicholas and Lyuda had " hemorrhages with presence of brown pigment". To my understanding this means they were bleeding while still alive. This is taken from Launton Anderson's interpretation of the Russian autopsy reports.  If that means there were open bleeding wounds (not bruises?) then those individual wounds would be...

Other than Simon's and Lyuda's eyes being missing, I am not sure where they were bleeding from. Nickolas' was, I believe, around his mouth.

Of course I could have misinterpreted the interpretation and if I have, someone please tell me.

Can we assume that the English interpretation is accurate and that everything that should have been mentioned in the autopsies was mentioned?  Do our Russian friends on this site think it is accurate? If so,  is there anyone on this forum who could tell us if we are interpreting the autopsy reports correctly? It would really be nice to know.

Well you said it.  Can we assume anything about the Authorities Investigation. By all accounts there is missing Evidence. And the Autopsy Investigation leaves a lot to be desired.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: eurocentric on July 23, 2020, 02:55:40 PM

Everything i read about flail chests discusses the extreme pain, i can't see Semyon sat up thinking about what to put in his notebook with a busted rib cage. Lyudmila would have died quickly and there wouldn't have been any need to protect her from the cold so in your narrative she would have joined the 2 Yuris?

I can easily imagine a dying man wishing to write a short note to his most loved, to be found with his body, in the same way submariners in the Kursk did. This note may well have solved the entire mystery by explaining what happened.

But I'm not sure we should rely on the "pencil/pad" idea, which seems to have been added to a rescuer's account years later. It also seems too perfectly timed that at the very moment he was sat or laid down thinking what to put, a tracked vehicle or tank went overhead in the middle of nowhere, and did so without leaving any tracks or signs of crushing around the collapsed zone, or that when fleeing the tent he had taken a pencil/pad (unless these were already in his pockets). The photo of him lying with Alexander shows the pencil and notebook in his hands?

You're automatically assuming Lyudmila's injuries were all delivered at peak severity immediately, and therefore she could not have managed to walk a  mile down a mountain pass. But it's possible she initially had fractures which weren't separated, during whatever calamity struck them and she managed to stagger down the pass in pain. But downhill, in the dark, and without anything to steady herself, and the wind behind them, she may have had a series of falls/rolls, and at some point, since her rib cage wasn't able to flex, a sharp end of bone then punctured the lining of her heart. And the same for Nicolai, and the same for Semyon? I don't think so. Even more improbable than the falling theory?

Another possibility to explain broken ribs on either her or another hiker, is that someone fell on one of them at the cedars while scaling trees for firewood. They've been after thinner branches to tear off at the growing point, I noted such ends visible in a photo of the den material, and these repeated and exhausting climbs to obtain material which burnt out quickly will also IMO have caused the (pressure) sores on Dyatlov's ankles, rather than him being, as another theory goes, bound (and by only his legs). Imo the only way to explain the rav4 injuries is by (1) a crushing pressure exerted through snow that doesn't break limbs but forces the major volumes of the body (head/chest) down so hard that skin splits, throats bend, and the bone structures protecting those major volumes fracture. OR (2) multiple events = killing by humans or other.

Finally, if all 4 in the den had been able-bodied until driven over, then unless they all assessed the danger up at the tent had passed, which if a meterological phenomena it might, then I feel they would have all gone back together, for safety in numbers. They wouldn't send two men, one without shoes and certain to get frostbite, and a woman, to face off against the military/tribesmen/yeti/alien and recover all their things needed to survive. To me this indicates the 4 were the worst injured already, and what had been built in a soft snow drift worked at that stage as a triage. I have a preference for Zinaida, Rustem and Igor never making it down. The two Yuris just made it alive having been injured on the way and then expired. The two best dressed men never attempted to return because as far as they knew they were the only ones left and preferred the shelter of the den.

They have shelter, they have water, the only thing they're missing for survival is food. In your theory not only have they had the bad luck of whatever happened on the mountain, but no sooner have they built a den and settled down to write something than a heavy vehicle goes overhead, leaving no crushing to the snow surface. This then provides the only explanation of why they made no attempt to obtain what they needed to survive; there was no opportunity. It's a neat solution to explaining all the injuries happening at once, but the probability of all that timing and bad luck seems unlikely.

The bodies were not found crushed in the den, they were in the ravine 6 metres away, so if a vehicle had gone over them there it would surely have left external trauma without the cushioning effect of snow above them. Even a human stamping on a body leaves a footprinted bruise.

The position of the bodies in the stream looks to me like they may have created a human dam, 4 spooning dead hikers, and the chest wall of Lyudmila may originally have been pressed against the large rock by 3 others, and the force of water, which would fluctuate due to melting, before she eventually slid over it and ended in the kneeling position. Next up, potentially, is Semyon, so both bodies may have received broken ribs or had pre-existing fractures made worse this way, after death. If I placed a man on a wooden pallet and started piling paving slabs on his back to represent the increasing force, eventually his ribs would crack because they are the weakest point.

The pathologist should know if the fractures happened before or after death, from the initiation of a microscopic healing process and swellings, though the cold temperatues will slow that down, and they were all dead within hours. I believe he sent some samples off for analysis, but AFAIK he hasn't had every single fracture point analysed, and may automatically attribute them all as occurring before death.

As regards the pen/pad, you introduced it, but according to this site it appears to revolve around an anecdotal thing said by a rescuer many years later, there is no official record of it. It seems improbable a paper pad would survive in the stream for several months enough for a man in charge to grasp it and be frustrated there was nothing written down, as if it would still even be flat and legible. I've looked at the photo's at this site again and cannot clearly see this pen/cil and pad, and while rigor mortis can cause bodies to continue holding items in a death grip, for them to do so across months of running water of varying degrees of flow intensity, as soft tissues decompose, is less probable.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 24, 2020, 05:55:19 AM


They have shelter, they have water, the only thing they're missing for survival is food. In your theory not only have they had the bad luck of whatever happened on the mountain, but no sooner have they built a den and settled down to write something he would need daylight so probably hours later. They may all have been asleep.than a heavy vehicle goes overhead,  or something else did it. leaving no crushing to the snow surface. This then provides the only explanation of why they made no attempt to obtain what they needed to survive; there was no opportunity. It's a neat solution to explaining all the injuries happening at once, but the probability of all that timing and bad luck seems unlikely. if you're at the wrong end of a military exercise (for instance) bad luck is guaranteed?

The bodies were not found crushed in the den, they were in the ravine 6 metres away, so if a vehicle had gone over them there it would surely have left external trauma without the cushioning effect of snow above them. Even a human stamping on a body leaves a footprinted bruise. That's the whole point of being crushed under a layer of snow?

The position of the bodies in the stream looks to me like they may have created a human dam, 4 spooning dead hikers, and the chest wall of Lyudmila may originally have been pressed against the large rock by 3 others, and the force of water, which would fluctuate due to melting, before she eventually slid over it and ended in the kneeling position. Next up, potentially, is Semyon, so both bodies may have received broken ribs or had pre-existing fractures made worse this way, after death. If I placed a man on a wooden pallet and started piling paving slabs on his back to represent the increasing force, eventually his ribs would crack because they are the weakest point. No the internal bleeding means that the fractures occurred with a beating heart that continued for some minutes. The fractures are definitely the cause of death.

The pathologist should know if the fractures happened before or after death, from the initiation of a microscopic healing process and swellings, though the cold temperatues will slow that down, and they were all dead within hours. I believe he sent some samples off for analysis, but AFAIK he hasn't had every single fracture point analysed, and may automatically attribute them all as occurring before death. as above.

As regards the pen/pad, you introduced it, no Askinadzi (who found Lyudmila) introduced it and the photo below supports that. but according to this site it appears to revolve around an anecdotal thing said by a rescuer many years later, there is no official record of it. It seems improbable a paper pad would survive in the stream for several months enough for a man in charge to grasp it and be frustrated there was nothing written down, as if it would still even be flat and legible. I've looked at the photo's at this site again and cannot clearly see this pen/cil and pad, and while rigor mortis can cause bodies to continue holding items in a death grip, being frozen in ice helps as well for them to do so across months of running water of varying degrees of flow intensity, as soft tissues decompose, is less probable.
What's Semyon holding in his hands?
 (https://i.ibb.co/mNrYLkR/Dyatlov-pass-Kolevatov-Zolotaryov-bodies-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DrP6xh1) 
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Morski on July 24, 2020, 11:39:16 PM
What's Semyon holding in his hands?

[/quote]

As far as I see, his right hand seem to hold the strap of the camera, and in/around the left is more like a piece of fabric from the pants. What you refer to is I believe this:

(https://i.ibb.co/SvnWjsF/Dyatlov-pass-Kolevatov-Zolotaryov-bodies-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KyqRP0T)

If it is a pen, from the photo it looks like it is pierced into his hand, rather then holding it. To me it is only a piece of fabric from his loose and torn pants. And if there was paper and pen, it is odd enough to be spotted and reported by other members of the search party, not only Askinadzi years later.

Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 25, 2020, 03:20:48 AM
The resolution isn't good but i think i can see a small diary sized book jutting out from the left hand and a pencil in the right. This fits with the in situ photo i posted further back. As for depending on a sole witness, that's the standard of the case files. E.g. the Ortorten News original is missing but in that case there is one other witness to seeing it (can't remember his name). Askinadzi also challenges the 6m distance as more like "an arms length".
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 25, 2020, 12:31:45 PM
The resolution isn't good but i think i can see a small diary sized book jutting out from the left hand and a pencil in the right. This fits with the in situ photo i posted further back. As for depending on a sole witness, that's the standard of the case files. E.g. the Ortorten News original is missing but in that case there is one other witness to seeing it (can't remember his name). Askinadzi also challenges the 6m distance as more like "an arms length".

Maybe the original handwritten Ortorten News is missing because it contained something that the Authorities didnt want the public to see  !  ?  And it is interesting that that newspaper was fixed to a prominent position in the Tent.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Manti on June 07, 2021, 03:10:11 PM

 (https://i.ibb.co/pP8hGFP/IMG-20190327-212302.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1n5zhWn)


What if the dashed area is the tent and not the den, and the orange track is a tree not a heavy vehicle? I wonder what Nigel's reaction would be
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Jacques-Emile on June 07, 2021, 06:30:50 PM
Read the precise words of autopsy by Воскресение(?). In English or Russian. This is one of the Bibles to read along with 1079. Otherwise is blind speculation, disrespecting the dead.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Jacques-Emile on June 07, 2021, 06:36:34 PM
Возрожденный(?). All right here on site. Read.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: WinterLeia on June 11, 2021, 08:05:37 AM
I’m somewhat confused by the fact that everyone is calculating differences in snow depths between what may have been when they either dug or found the snow den to what it was when the bodies were found. There were snowstorms in the time between those two events as well as a spring thaw. Unless we know how much snow fell and how much snow thawed, all we are left with are assumptions based on rough estimates. Considering what we’re dealing with, even being off by a little amount could change the dynamics significantly.

Secondly, I don’t doubt for a second that water can move a human body. I do doubt that it could move a body, but not the loose items of clothing on the den floor. They were not smashed into the floor. Once the body slid off it, if there was even a body on it, the garment would have been carried downstream as well. And I’m sorry, but the placement of those pads, four of them in each one of the corners, is a bit too symmetrical for me to believe that clothes and tree branches just happen to fall or be cast off like that. And I have yet to see an explanation for why they cut clothes off their dead friends or even ripped their own clothes in half and/or discarded them all over the place. The case file reads like a modern day Hansel and Gretel story, follow the breadcrumbs (or clothes, in this instance) to find the den. Did Luda believe she was wearing too many clothes, so she ripped her sweater in half? If she didn’t need it for something else, then there’s no reason she would have done that.

As far as there being pockets of empty air and den collapses, yes, these are possible, but so are a lot of other things. However, I have become extremely suspicious of any theory that has them buried in snow, as it seems to be the one theory that keeps getting pushed time and time again. First it was an avalanche at the tent, then it was a slab avalanche at the tent, and now it’s an avalanche at the den. If that’s ever put into serious question, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone didn’t start arguing that snow fell from the cedar and caused the injuries.

I agree, however, that the only way they could have built that den is that it is either a natural formation or required a small amount of digging through loose powdery snow. It’s not just a lack of snow shovels, but also the lack of proper attire coupled with the fact that they had already walked a fair distance through freezing temperatures from the tent to the cedar. Digging in snow with their bare hands or even gloves would have dropped their body temperature even more. The most likely scenario is that they would have froze to death before they got very far in the construction.

I’m all for simple explanations. And I realize we will not have all the answers or there won’t be contradictions even if we happen to alight on what really did happen. However, it should at least answer the most pertinent questions. The theory of a den collapse doesn’t answer what happened at the tent that put them in that situation to begin with. It doesn’t answer why Luda’s brown sweater was literally the most radiated of all the clothing. It doesn’t explain why the protocol to close the case stated she was wearing George’s radiated clothing when neither the official autopsy, the description submitted by the people who found her body, or the radiation testing support this. Was that just an honest mistake or was that put in because radiation on George’s clothing is a lot easier to explain than radiation on Luda’s clothing? Why does the written description of how the bodies were found in the ravine differ from what the pictures show? They say that the men’s’ heads were lying north along the stream and Luda’s head was lying in the opposite direction against the current? She was lying perpendicular to the men, so if the current was flowing north and her head was pointing south, the men’s heads were facing east. Again, a honest mistake? Is it just a coincidence that the bodies, if found in the position described in the case file, would have made the theory of them being carried there by the natural movement of water to be more likely? The water would have had a lot easier time of doing that if it wasn’t facing the resistance of the full horizontal length of three grown adult male bodies stacked one after the other (If you hold your hand outside the window of a moving car, you’ll understand what I mean. Turn your palm to the wind and there’s a lot of resistance. Turn your hand so the wind hits one side and there’s a lot less resistance). How many mistakes can be explained away before we’re allowed to wonder if they’re really mistakes? It doesn’t answer why there were foot bindings found at the scene that belonged to no one. It doesn’t explain why the searchers would have dug ten centimeters down to find some clothing and then not used the avalanche probes, but instead decided to just dig down ten meters more without any idea something was even down there other than the discarded clothes. They had found discarded clothes all over the place. Were they digging ten meter holes at every spot where clothes had been found? I would think the avalanche probes were there to save them from expending their energy fruitlessly. So the one place they dug just happened to be where the den was? Common sense would suggest they would find the bodies first, not flattened branches and clothes under ten meters of snow.
Title: Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
Post by: Sunny on June 14, 2021, 11:15:32 AM
It is possible that for example 2 of them were inside the cave or den, and two were outside on top of the snow roof, when it collapsed , and the two fell on top of the others, causing all to suffer injuries. And there's some snow in between them, but in spring it melted away in that water.
Or if they all were in the den, the 3 who died outside, were looking for the den, and in darkness they walked on top of the den and it collapsed. But the 3 never even knew they had killed the 4. Or maybe they screamed but there were nothing they could do.