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Events / Re: Press conference
« Last post by Axelrod on November 24, 2023, 12:41:17 PM »
Some speech form this conference:

KARELIN: Good afternoon, pen and film professionals! You know very well that in 2019 a prosecutorial inspection was carried out under the leadership of prosecutor Kuryakov. You are well aware of the furious public reaction to the results of this audit. But I would like to say a few words of thanks to Kuryakov. He was able to organize a weather review. He attracted highly qualified weather experts, and Pigoltsina, in my opinion, did a very talented job. And now we know perfectly well the conditions that were on the night of February 1-2, 1959. There were no strong winds. There was no extremely LOW temperature on the evening of February 1st. The temperature was just beginning to DOWN by the morning of February 2nd.

And so, without the work of Kuryakov, we would still not know these clear conditions. Another positive moment of Kuryakov: We only discussed meteorological rockets. Kuryakov organized an examination, which showed that on February 1 and 2, 1959, weather balloons were launched in Ivdel. But these are not meteorological rockets, these are only weather balloons. Moreover, clear information was received that these weather balloons – they were moving in a completely different direction that would have been directed to the place of death. They were moving in the opposite direction.

But still, about the Fireballs – I would also like to say now. Because on February 17, I myself saw this Fireball. But besides me, there were a number of other observers. And when I analyzed the results that these observers saw in the direction of flight of this Fireball, then a clear picture emerged that these observers saw in the direction of flight of this Fireball.

In the Nizhny Tagil region, the ball moved from south to northeast. A little bit strange. Then Skoryh observed in the area of the city of Novaya Lyalya: the ball was moving over the Ural Mountains. Those. I saw a ball that moved in the western part of the horizon.

Then, to the north, a group of tourists under the leadership of Bychkov also observed. They saw that the ball was moving over the Ural Range, over the watershed, and also in the western part of the horizon.

Literally there are 4 or 5 observations of soldiers, but they did not even reflect anywhere in their testimony, and in which part of the horizon they saw: either in the east or in the west.

Therefore, it is difficult to say whether the ball flew in their opinion from south to north – yes. But in what part of the horizon, it is difficult to say. The same shortcoming applies to the observations of meteorologists. And here even to the north, that Fireball that Atmanaki and I saw on February 17, 1959, it flew in a completely different direction. Ie flew from east to west.

From here I draw a completely logical conclusion: some unidentified object was flying all the time from south to north. And then, when I already saw him, he changed direction and flew from east to west. And, therefore, only some winged unidentified object could make this change in the trajectory of movement!

This fact of analyzing this suggests that this is a completely new established fact. And based on it, you can raise the issue of opening a new criminal case.

Well, I would also like to say about the Swiss scientists. You also know this very well. I once conducted a thorough analysis of their article. And he showed that their mathematical model is beautiful, no doubt, but this mathematical model is based on completely incorrect concrete facts. Well, let's say the Swiss believed that the tent stood under some kind of foundation of some kind of large elevation, that means. In summer and winter, we carefully measured the angle of inclination along this entire slope. And the nearest stone is large – a small rock, which was located 20-25 meters from the tent. And the tent itself was on a slope of only 10 degrees.

Therefore, the most important trump card of these Swiss scientists was knocked out. I wrote a review of an article by Swiss scientists and sent it to the journal in which this article was published. But, unfortunately, no response was heard from the editor or from the authors of the article themselves.

Russian original:

КАРЕЛИН: Добрый день, профессионалы пера и фотокиносъёмок! Вам прекрасно известно, что в 2019 году была проведена Прокурорская проверка под руководством прокурора Курьякова. Вам прекрасно известна яростная реакция общественности на результаты этой проверки. Но я бы хотел сказать несколько благодарственных слов Курьякову. Он смог организовать рецензию на метеоусловия. Он привлёк высококлассных специалистов по метеоусловиям, и Пигольцина очень талантливую работу, на мой взгляд, сделала. И мы сейчас прекрасно знаем условия, какие были в ночь с 1 на 2 февраля 1959 г. Не было сильнейших ветров. Вечером 1 февраля не было чрезвычайно НИЗКОЙ температуры. Температура только начала ПОНИЖАТЬСЯ к утру 2 февраля.

И вот, без работы Курьякова мы бы не знали до сих пор этих чётких условий. Ещё один положительный момент Курьякова: Мы только обсуждали метеоракеты. Курьяков организовал экспертизу, которая показала, что 1 и 2 февраля 1959 года в Ивделе запускались метеозонды. Но это не метеоракеты, это только метеозонды. Причём получена чёткая информация о том, что эти метеозонды, они двигались совершенно не в том направлении, которое было бы направлено на место гибели. Они двигались в противоположным направлении.

Но всё-таки об Огненных Шарах – я бы сейчас тоже хотел сказать. Потому что 17 февраля я сам видел этот Огненный Шар. Но кроме меня ещё целый ряд наблюдателей были. И вот когда я проанализировал результаты, которые эти наблюдатели видели по направлению полёта этого Огненного Шара, то вырисовалась чёткая картина, которую эти наблюдатели видели по направлению полёта этого Огненного Шара.

В районе Нижнего Тагила шар двигался с юга на северо-восток. Как-то странно несколько. Затем Скорых наблюдал в районе города Новая Ляля: шар двигался над Уральским хребтом. Т.е. видел шар, который двигался в западной части горизонта. Затем севернее ещё наблюдала команда группа туристов под руководством Бычкова. Они видели, что шар двигался над Уральским хребтом, над водоразделом, и тоже в западной части горизонта.

Буквально там 4 или 5 наблюдений солдат, но они даже не отразили нигде в своих показаниях, а в какой части горизонта они видели: то ли в восточной, то ли в западной. Поэтому трудно сказать, шар летел по их мнению с юга на север – это да. Но в какой части горизонта, сказать трудно. Этот же недостаток относится и к наблюдениям метеорологов. А вот тут ещё севернее, тот Огненный Шар, который мы с Атманаки видели 17 февраля 1959 года, – он летел совсем в другом направлении. Он летел с востока на запад.

Отсюда я делаю совершенно логичный вывод: какой-то неопознанный объект летел всё время с юга на север. А затем, когда я уже его увидел, он изменил направление и полетел с востока на запад. А, значит, это изменение траектории движения мог совершить только какой-то крылатый неопознанный объект! Вот этот факт анализа этого говорит о том, что это совершенно новый установленный факт. И основываясь на нём можно поднимать вопрос об открытии нового уголовного дела.

Ну и ещё хотел бы я сказать о швейцарских учёных. Вам это тоже прекрасно известно. Я в своё время провёл тщательный анализ их статьи. И показал, что математическая модель лавины у них красивая, бесспорно, но эта математическая модель основывается на совершенно неверных конкретных фактах. Ну, допустим, швейцарцы считали, что палатка стояла под каким-то основанием какого-то большого возвышения, значит. Мы летом и зимой тщательно вымерили угол наклона по всему этому склону. И ближайший камень большой – это маленькая скала, которая находилась от палатки в 20-25 метрах. А сама палатка находилась на склоне всего 10°.

Поэтому самый главный козырь швейцарских учёных этих – был выбит. Я написал рецензию на статью швейцарских учёных, послал её в журнал, в котором была опубликована статья эта. Но, к сожалению, ни от редактора, ни от самих авторов статьи никаких отзвуков не было слышно.:
General Discussion / Re: help translate tent and snow paragraph
« Last post by Ziljoe on November 24, 2023, 02:55:58 AM »
There seems to be some damage to the ski poles but this photo is taken after they have moved the tent and it's contents.

This may have been done by the searcher's? When digging up the tent . It is strange that if these baskets/ rings were found broken by the searcher's that it is not reported.

Any breakages or movement found of the ski poles or ropes would be significant to understanding what happened.

I don't know if the heights and distances given for much of the data were rough guesses.
General Discussion / Re: help translate tent and snow paragraph
« Last post by Axelrod on November 24, 2023, 01:17:42 AM »
Maslennikov wrote (page 70): Палатка находилась в 150 м от гребня отрога (на высоте 900 м) высоты «1079». Палатка была растянута на лыжах и палках, забитых в снег, вход ее был обращен в южную сторону и с этой стороны растяжки были целы, а растяжки северной стороны сорваны и поэтому вся втора половина палатки оказалась завалена снегом.

The tent was 150 m from the spur ridge (900 m) of height "1079". The tent was stretched out on skis and poles, hammered into the snow, its entrance facing the south side and on that side extensions were intact, and the north side stretching was disrupted and therefore the entire second half of the tent was covered with snow.

-- Side extentions = maybe  ropes. It is understandable translation? I think, I suppose, all ski poles were intact, except one inside the tent.

-- the same tetx was repeated by prosecotur Tempalov--

I suppose

Second question: It is not clear form text about 900 m - it is height of tent place or spur ringe. We know placement of tent h=890, Deam mountain =1097 (1097 - h = 1079 - 900),
General Discussion / Re: help translate tent and snow paragraph
« Last post by Ziljoe on November 23, 2023, 09:30:13 PM »
It could be read as both ski pole and strap. When the rope and pole are used together, it serves one purpose, to support the tent. So does he mean most of the ski poles with straps were still in place, attached to the tent?

That if I am assuming correctly that by straps , it means ropes. Interesting how he says most of them were not damaged, which means some were damaged .

We can see in the photos done by the searcher's that there seems to be ski poles lying around, plus there seems to be loose baskets ( the ring from the bottom of ski pole) .
General Discussion / Re: help translate tent and snow paragraph
« Last post by Axelrod on November 23, 2023, 03:07:06 PM »
Moment that I cannot understand in Russian

Лист 215

вход или придавить угол палатки грузом чтобы его не сорвало ветром. Палатка стояла на разложенных лыжах, растяжки привязаны к лыжным палкам, причем большинство из них не были повреждены.

Sheet 215

the entrance by stacking the corner of the tent with a load so that it will not be torn by the wind. The tent was laid on skis, straps were tied to ski poles, and most of them were not damaged

WHAT was not damaged - ski poles or straps? Maybe Atmanaki suppopsed straps, but reader understatns it as ski poles.
Thank you Partorg.

It sounds logical. It will be interesting to hear what others think.
Quote from: Ziljoe
The raised footprints would suggest there was a warm front
If you mean warming, then yes, but the front that brought it was called a winter cold front of the 2nd kind. This phenomenon is characterized by the fact that in the most active area, a mass of cold air drives a wave of warm air in front of it.  It looks like this. After the usual -15 - 25°C, it suddenly gets warmer (sometimes almost to 0°). A low, heavy, lead-colored cloud with a snow storm underneath comes from the west, and a severe general snowstorm continues for 2 hours, after which the wind subsides, the sky clears and the temperature begins to sharply fall by 10 - 15° or more in 40 - 50 minutes
The width of such areas can be > 200 km, but
may and  40 km. Therefore, the storm could pass by the rare weather stations in those places - Troitsk-Pechorsk (200 km to the NW from the Pass), Nyaksimvol (110 NE) Burmantovo (78 SE). In Burmantovo it is not exactly recorded, but a clockwise rotation of the wind followed by a subsequent cold snap is recorded there, which is typical for the passage of a cold front.

Quote from: Ziljoe
It would seem that most of the time the snow is solid or a hard crust on the slope . Yet , within a short period of time there are the conditions that leave detailed raised prints. If these snow / warm front conditions existed before they pitched their tent , would we not also be left with raised ski tracks over the pass to the tent location?
Any traces on the slopes remain only in snow that was recently brought and has not yet had time to harden. In convex areas from which snow is blown away - in the form of columns, and in depressions where it lingers and hardens over time - in the form of pits. If this happens when the snow temperature is –6°C or lower, the “columns” turn out to be fragile and are blown by the wind within 3 - 4 days.
«Columns» formed at a snow temperature of –1 to –5°C and humidity ≥ 5% can last until May and be the last snow to melt, surrounded by the first grass.
This also applies to marks from narrow skis. One of the search participants, Bartolomei, recalled about 3-4 years ago that at the end of March he saw the “rails” of the Dyatlov group’s ski tracks on certain sections of the slope between the Pass and the tent. But they, unlike the pillar paths, appeared not as a result of the action of the wind, but as a result of the fact that the snow around them melted under the sun. Throughout February and, apparently, March, they were covered with snow and therefore no one remembers about them. Thawing doesn't just happen on slopes. Even in my relatively flat Western Siberia, at the second half of April you can see clearings already cleared of snow, crossed by such “rails”.

Quote from: Ziljoe
meaning , they did not know that there was no real danger above them but may have suspected they were in a more serious situation and decided to leave for the forest
Seems that the reason that forced their to cut the tent, and then throw it and go into the forest without outer clothing, could be not the PROBABILITY of the occurrence of any unfavorable for life and health, circumstances  but themselves these circumstances in all their fullness and nakedness. In both cases.

Quote from: Ziljoe
If it is possible for the snow to shift under load ,then it's the most likely reason for them to leave the tent.
Yes. The nature of the cut - horizontal (longitudinal) and not obtained on the first attempt - also suggests that the cut was made while lying under a flattened and compressed layer of snow the roof.
A standing tent would be cut vertically - from the ridge to the eaves or vice versa. From a sitting position on the fifth point (or on your knees), it will vertically be more natural and convenient to cut.
In an experiment by Semyashkin’s group in February 2010, the tent was cut exactly like this. And they left her standing.
This is what she looked like after 26 days:
General Discussion / Re: Bright light / rocket theory
« Last post by Axelrod on November 23, 2023, 01:40:46 AM »
memories of another group of tourists on the evening of February 1 from Mount Chistop, 35 km to the south, are important:
And the assault on the mountain is prohibited by all prescriptions and instructions at night. Finds out the ICC – disqualifies! We leave skis and backpacks at the border of the forest. We pull woolen masks over our faces, put ski poles in our hands and go! There is firn snow underfoot, gravel, you can’t even see your own trace. The ascent goes in ledges: a steep slope, an inclined terrace, again a steep slope. The sun fell over the mountain. And ahead looms a pointed peak. Among the Russians, it is called Ostraya Sopka, and among the Mansi – Horse Titka.

Dense darkness and fog creeps along the valleys and gorges. Above the top, the «evening star» – Aurora – the planet Venus, burns brightly. This is our lighthouse.

Frost over thirty. Well, at least there is no wind. Finally, the last takeoff and we are at the top! The night feeling is incredible! In the northwest stretches the Main Ural Range. Against the backdrop of a black sky, 25 kilometers from us, the snowy dome of Mount Otorten turns white. There, at the top, are our fellow students of the UPI, the Dyatlov group.

We quickly find a stone tour and a jar with a note from Permian tourists in a wooden pyramid and leave our own. This proof that we were at the top is for the record. For the last time we take a look at the mountainous night country. But what is it? Above Otorten, cutting through the darkness of the night, a flare soars up. There is no housing in that area. Are polytechnics celebrating the ascent? So they should have been there a few days ago! There is no time to think – the frost is running out. Run down to the forest at random. It's good that there are no dangerous descents. But there are no traces of us. We ran into the forest in total darkness. And where to find our backpacks and skis? Left or right? We break into groups. Flashlights don't work in this cold weather. Finally, in the distance, the lights from matches flare up near one group. Backpacks found, we're saved! We descend in total darkness down into the cedar belt. There is firewood, there is life! But what does it mean to go down a steep slope in the dark? Horror! This must be experienced! As soon as you part and – a break… Someone again lies with his head in the snow. If only the skis didn't break!

Finally, cedar. We crawl around, feeling each tree – we need to find crackers-well. And the lanterns, damned, do not burn in the cold! But here is a cry: – There is a dry tree!
Quote from: Ziljoe
they could have raised the snow platform with snow to make it level without starting a new tent location.
I also don't think they abandoned the almost finished pit and moved 3-4 metres to the right.
The stones are the explanation of the reason for the relocation.  But was born  this "concept" from the fact that the photo of the found tent does not show such a deepening of its western side into the slope, which can be seen in the photo of the site preparation for it. For some Intimate reasons, the authors of the concept did not want to explain this difference by the sliding of the snow layer from the short but steep (min. 30°across the snow) slope the terrace

Quote from: Ziljoe
What are your thoughts ? A potential for a snow slab ? Or not possible?
In the presence of an underlying layer consisting of deep (or buried surface) frost, slabs and sluffs move along even 15° slopes. No problem.
But it wasn't necessarily a slab. It could have been a landslide of loose ice crumbs of destroyed surface frost. On 31. 01. reaching the pass, they noted a strong warm westerly wind. If by night it weakened to ≤ 8 kt and remained warm and blew the slope for several hours, 2-3 inches of surface frost could be formed on the snow cover surface, which in the morning was blown away by the increasing wind on the convex parts of the slope, and stayed in the concave ones waiting for the arrival of tourists who cut it.

I agree that snow slab is not the perfect word or phrase . If it is possible for the snow to shift under load ,then it's the most likely reason for them to leave the tent.

If they pitched the tent in low visibility, they may not know their exact location on 1019, meaning , they did not know that there was no real danger above them but may have suspected they were in a more serious situation and decided to leave for the forest. There could have a significant slide of loose snow also.

The ski poles may have been supporting the ridge of the tent but repositioned as a marker so the tent could be found the next day. 

The raised footprints would suggest there was a warm front , especially the reports of the detail within the footprints ,like seeing it was bare feet or indavidual toes could be seen.

It would seem that most of the time the snow is solid or a hard crust on the slope . Yet , within a short period of time there are the conditions that leave detailed raised prints. If these snow / warm front conditions existed before they pitched their tent , would we not also be left with raised ski tracks over the pass to the tent location?

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