Theories Discussion > Murdered
Murder Indead
Ziljoe:
--- Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on September 11, 2023, 01:00:55 PM ---
--- Quote from: Ziljoe on June 21, 2022, 04:25:00 PM ---
All the deaths are consistent with exposure and hypothermia. The avalanche theory varies from snow slide to slip of a small amount of snow. Not some tidal wave of endless amount of snow.
I interpret it to being the reason of leaving the tent. All injuries occurred after the exit of the tent, whether that be physical attack, environment , Wolverine . I struggle to get my head round the logistics of murder of 9 people. There's easier ways to do it. Plus , I've said before and I'll say it again. An organised/ planned murder would not leave any film from cameras behind. If one is trained in killing and on a mission, you take away all potential from being found.
If it was murder it's not premeditated in my opinion. It's sloppy.
--- End quote ---
The many injuries cannot be explained by accidents, and since there were injuries that were either directly lethal or lethal in combination with exposure it is fully conceivable that the killers orchestrated their cruel mission precisely in such a way as to make it look like an accident.
There are clearly easier ways to kill nine people, but there is hardly any more intelligent method than to do it in such a way as was in all probability done: Chase the victims out from their tent and let the cold do the job. Had the temperature been a little lower, it would have been a perfect mission. Since the victims did not die as fast as planned, the killing squad had to expedite the outcome. Hence the injuries.
There was no sign of an avalanche in the area, and the injuries are of course not consistent with such a natural phenomenon.
--- End quote ---
I don't entirely disagree, but I think we have to look at all possibilities. It's three weeks before they found the tent, I think there may be some argument that there was a small localised snow slip / slide that may have given the impression to the dp9 that worse was to come. Enough for them to leave perhaps?
If the last photos of them digging the trench for pitching the tent is accurate, then the spoil of the snow that they dug out, which would be roughly 2m x 5 m is not existant in the search photos. Maybe the wind errouded this pile of snow?. There would be no sign of an avalanche as we think it to be in our heads.
I agree about the fact there's easier ways to kill , if it was planned that is, but I think it would have been cold enough for them to die as they did without additional equipment.
The main injuries sustained are a possibility from the cold and a collapse of a snow cave/ bank/ weight of snow on the ravine 4.
I maybe thinking wrong , but we have 4 bodies under 3-4 meters of snow , these bodies are at ground level so the 3-4 meters of snow got on top of them some how.
We have the two Yuri's by the ceder and fire, they have burns and there are burnt clothing reported.
I don't know how to argue the point and I'll repeat, I don't rule out outsiders , I would rather rule out natural possibilities, then consider outsiders. As you suggest, it's an odd way to kill people.
Per Inge Oestmoen:
--- Quote from: Ziljoe on September 11, 2023, 07:17:33 PM ---I don't know how to argue the point and I'll repeat, I don't rule out outsiders , I would rather rule out natural possibilities, then consider outsiders. As you suggest, it's an odd way to kill people.
--- End quote ---
What I clearly stated, is that to let the cold to the grisly job is a very intelligent way of killing people: To make it look like an accident in the cold. Almost any other way of killing them would have been too obviously a murder. This method would have been a complete success, if the temperature had been low enough to kill the nine without further intervention. To chase the victims out of their tent and into the cold - what method of killing can be more cruelly intelligent, if the order from above was to make the deaths look like an accident?
Why would the investigators be instructed to close the investigation down prematurely with the conclusion that it was an accident, unless it was something entirely different?
The injuries tell their tale, and they can only be explained by lethal attack by other humans.
Ziljoe:
--- Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on October 08, 2023, 12:30:50 PM ---
--- Quote from: Ziljoe on September 11, 2023, 07:17:33 PM ---I don't know how to argue the point and I'll repeat, I don't rule out outsiders , I would rather rule out natural possibilities, then consider outsiders. As you suggest, it's an odd way to kill people.
--- End quote ---
What I clearly stated, is that to let the cold to the grisly job is a very intelligent way of killing people: To make it look like an accident in the cold. Almost any other way of killing them would have been too obviously a murder. This method would have been a complete success, if the temperature had been low enough to kill the nine without further intervention. To chase the victims out of their tent and into the cold - what method of killing can be more cruelly intelligent, if the order from above was to make the deaths look like an accident?
Why would the investigators be instructed to close the investigation down prematurely with the conclusion that it was an accident, unless it was something entirely different?
The injuries tell their tale, and they can only be explained by lethal attack by other humans.
--- End quote ---
I don't entirely disagree , however, I need or want to challenge your thoughts.
Outsiders could have made the dp9 look like they were digging the trench for the tent as per the alleged last photo. The cold had already worked on several members of the group if we assume outsiders were trying to kill them in that way, that way being, death by hypothermia.
There is then no point in breaking skulls or breaking ribs? Just strangle them , there will be less evidence? Marks on the neck will not show when there is nothing but a skeleton, but broken ribs and skull fractures will?
The investigators closed it because they hadn't a clue? There were many tourist trips that ended with people losing their lives. An embarrassment all round perhaps?
The injuries say something happened for sure. We must be 100 % that those injuries ( broken ribs) could not happen in the environment. I will argue in the first hand that the ravine 4 were found under 3-4 meters of snow. I have to ask the question,, can we be certain that a mass of snow , falling on top of bodies cause these injuries. I do not have the resources to know for sure, but we have ather reports from around the world that show that broken bones from snow collapse, land slip are posable. That fact, in my opinion cannot be ignored. To me, it's the first angle we look at.
Others have put explanations forward. The potential of a tree causing the injuries for example.
If you wish to say there was a bunch of trained guys doing Kung Fu, without their pyjamas on but in heavy , 1950s clothing , I can't argue the fact.
Marc:
For me, the most important question of the incident is _ why did the group not return to the tent after the first panic or shock (whatever caused it)? That is the key.
Something in or near the tent must have had a lasting effect and must have been completely fatal for the group.
Only one thing seems convincing to me: the human factor.
It is quite reasonable to think that someone surprised hikers that February night. And it is quite reasonable to suggest that this surprise was brutal. It is possible that the first injuries to some of the group members (head injuries, for example) came from this first contact at the tent. It is not difficult to imagine how this affected the psyche of the hikers. These individuals were ready to kill and do it very brutally if necessary.
As someone wrote above: the easiest way to complete the task is to send the hikers into the night with few clothes and no boots, without bullets and knife wounds. Probably at some point they decided to take a risk and ensure the end of the "mission". Things escalated at the edge of the forest and beyond. Methods that were not originally planned were hastily used. And this could lead to very unpredictable outcome. We should not assume that killers always followed a certain plan, even if they were somewhat professional.
If I'm not mistaken (I don't remember the exact wording and name), there was an expert leading the autopsy who said that some of the injuries could not have been caused by a human! This is a professional conclusion and a professional opinion. I have to respect that. But let's just put this assumption and conclusion aside for a moment. Is it impossible under certain conditions, with certain means?
So why are there no traces of the perpetrators? I would like to answer, but I have nothing smart to say. But I am sure that hiding the traces is not an impossible task.
More than 60 years have passed since the incident and we still don't know what happened. This is understandable in a context where the evidence does not directly support the murder theory, but cannot convincingly refute it either.
"Unknown compelling force" - is this an opinion or the best guess based on the available evidence!? Most likely I would have to give the same answer if I had been a criminal investigator myself. But that would not have stopped me from forming a personal opinion.
For me, this opinion is something like this - at least 75% probability that people are involved and 25% chance that it is a combination of bad judgment, some weather phenomenon and bad luck.
Per Inge Oestmoen:
--- Quote from: Marc on February 11, 2025, 04:40:02 AM ---
If I'm not mistaken (I don't remember the exact wording and name), there was an expert leading the autopsy who said that some of the injuries could not have been caused by a human! This is a professional conclusion and a professional opinion. I have to respect that. But let's just put this assumption and conclusion aside for a moment. Is it impossible under certain conditions, with certain means?
So why are there no traces of the perpetrators? I would like to answer, but I have nothing smart to say. But I am sure that hiding the traces is not an impossible task.
--- End quote ---
- The experts who participated in the investigation were instructed to close the investigation and conclude that the whole tragedy was an accident. The leader of the investigation was even called to Moscow, and it was after that the conclusion came. Also, if we take a look at the injuries we will see that the assertion that some of the injuries could not be caused by a human is demonstrably false. Any close combat practitioner can tell you that powerful elbow strikes from a trained close combat man can easily break ribs. In fact, my jiu jitsu teacher Aiain Sailly taught us precisely how that is done - and how it results in lethal damage to the chest area including broken ribs. Russian special forces are known to be perhaps the world's most proficient in close combat techniques. by the way, Lavrentij Berija introduced jiu jitsu to the special forces in the 1930's. Russian close combat techniques consist of a "marriage" of jiu jitsu and traditional Russian wrestling and striking tecniques, and is known as Sambo. I assure you, the broken ribs of Zolotaryev and Dubinina is precisely what can be expected if such competent professionals attack with lethal intent.
- There was no trace of the perpetrators because they very likely entered the area on skis after having been transported by helicopter, and because the many days that passed from the killing to the discovery of the tent and the first bodies.
- Also, the Mansi living in the area must have observed the bodies and likely also understood what happened. They were told that they were suspect, and then suddenly they were left off the hook. The unspoken message was clear: If they ever told anyone what they knew, they would be charged with the murder.
- Lastly, there was a new "investigation" into the incident in 2019, and it concluded that an avalanche was the cause of the deaths. However, it has been thoroughly demonstrated that there was not a single trace of an avalanche in the area. So, when the authorities point to a never-existing avalanche, it actually confirms that the Dyatlov pass tragedy was no accident. The nine students had very likely witnessed some state secret they were not supposed to know about. Even if none of them had ever shown any kind of disloyalty to the state, they had to be eliminated in order to ensure that they kept their silence.
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