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The radioactive trace on the Dyatlov Pass

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Axelrod:
In the fall of 2005, I bought myself a gamma radioactivity dosimeter for personal research, on the radio market in Moscow, it cost $50. I remember all this physics theory, such as the theory of music and solfeggio, although I don’t really do this.
When I listened to materials on the Dyatlov group, I noticed something that only beta radiation was detected, which my $50 device cannot detect. You need to fork out another amount of money or look specifically for it.
This is clear to me as a person who, in the 3rd year of the institute, took laboratory work on alpha radioactivity.
This is when 1 signal is caught in the natural background in 15 minutes.

I realized that my device was not suitable for going to the Dyatlov Pass and trying to determine something there.
On the other hand, there is always a natural background (the device should always beep, it’s like water with microbes), its absence is also strange. For example, there is a problem with the batteries inside, if not the circuitry. With bad batteries, the device shows half the radiation. (I thought so)


Second point, my dosimeter shows a background level of 6 to 26 microroentgens in the apartment and other houses (the norm is 13, but usually it was exceeded by 16). When I watched on YouTube at the end of April a foray into abandoned houses in the Chernobyl zone,
I saw a man standing on the balcony of a high-rise building, and the dosimeter showed 2800-2900 microroentgen of gamma radiation (the same gray BELLA dosimeter as mine). The background of the clothing that was sent by Ivanov for examination corresponds approximately to background 80. That is. under normal conditions this is an elevated background, which I have never observed with a meter, but this is not a consequence of a serious accident. This could be 20 m from Chernobyl, for example.

People who have not studied physics. when they start using such a device, housewives say funny things: “In different parts of our apartment, this device shows different radiation,” which makes me laugh.


Although the examination for Ivanov determined beta radiation for the organs of the victims and for their clothing, here we must remember the Russian proverb - “separate the flies from the cutlets.” Beta radioactivity of bodies at such low levels is not a consequence of exposure, but normal radiation exposure during its life, in the sense of consumption of potassium-40, carbon-14 (such as, for example, a person’s tanning in the sun). As I understand it, after the atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, at the time of irradiation, wooden houses were burning, under irradiation conditions, carbon-14 was formed from carbon-12, which flew in the atmosphere throughout the planet, the apple tree turned it into an apple through the process of photosynthesis, you ate the apple and part of it remains in you. Second varian - carbon dioxide high in the atmosphere under the influence of cosmic radiation. Levashov’s examination is silent on this point and only mentions potassium-40.

If there is radiation, this does not mean that it should not exist. Second examination: The radioactivity of clothing is strange, but how did it originate? Of course, cotton also contains carbon, but I think another reason (dust on clothes). Why didn't normal gamma radiation occur? It’s like, for example, I looked into the trash can in the yard, and there was only green grass or yellow sand instead of colorful garbage.

To determine what causes this radiation from 2-3 isotopes, you need to study reference books, as an option the decay of strontium-yttrium-zirconium, the decay of promethium-samarium and the decay of europium-gadolinium (radioactive numbers), I stopped studying further. Could it be hydrogen-tritium (interesting theories arise here), I am not yet competent to answer.

Universal devices for alpha, beta and gamma radiation, as I assume, are poorly sensitive to alpha and beta,
because the plastic housing is a significant barrier to this radiation.
Those. a device like Taimen’s in the video, with a plastic body. can detect beta radiation

I don’t even know what kind of device I should go with, maybe with this one (like a tennis table),
as it was in our laboratory work. In simple words, the examination for Ivanov was done in laboratory conditions,
and cannot be caught with a regular consumer device.

Why are such devices not sold? Because they are usually not specifically needed, because beta radiation is usually accompanied by gamma radiation, which penetrates better through obstacles and for which the universe is, as it were, transparent. I don’t know yet how dangerous it is.

The unit roentgen was introduced for x-rays, but is also used for gamma radiation
X-rays are supposedly an outdated unit of measurement. like Russian verst instead of meters.
There is also a system unit of sievert, but the "obsolete" roentgen continues to be widely used, as do the obsolete inches. I have not heard about the use of sieverts. At least the mention of sieverts causes discomfort. X-rays are not suitable for alpha and beta radiation; these radiations are measured in pulses or some other units. I don’t remember now, but you can’t easily find it in reference books. I can’t understand whether this is archaic (like using “dyne instead of newton”), or vice versa is the norm.


From what I studied at the age of 16-20 and memorized, like formulas and poems, now I have questions about many things.

For example, if the alpha particle is helium (2 protons + 2 neutrons), then where do the 2 electrons go when the atom decays?
The second point that I realized is that beta decay is not a process of decreasing the atomic number, but rather increasing it (in figurative language, this is a fusion reaction into a higher number). This is, for example, how a person loses weight but does not rejuvenate, but becomes a year older.

In general, the entire theory of atomic physics resembles the Dyatlov Pass theory. There are a lot of wild fantasies and controversial theories that are not studied in school (this theory may soon change), all sorts of Gibbs fields, and radiation physics is rather a peculiar branch of chemistry with a violation of the law of conservation of the original substance (in ordinary chemistry), from which normal physicists (for example, at our institute), specialists in physics, for example, in superconductivity or laser optics, try to brush it off. “Why are you offering us chemistry?”

====
Я в 2005 осенью году купил себе дозиметр гамма-радиоактивности для личных исследований, на радиорынке в Москве, это стоило 50 долларов.Я всю эту теорию физики помню, как например теорию музыки и сольфеджио, хотя реально я этим не занимаюсь.
Когда я слушал материалы по группе Дятлова, я обратил внимание на такую вещь, что обнаружена только бета-радиация, которую мой прибор за 50 долларов определит не сможет. Надо раскошелится на другую сумму денег или специально искать.
Это мне понятно как человеку, который на 3 курсе института проходил лабораторные работы по альфа-радиоактивности.
Это когда за 15 минут в природном фоне ловится 1 сигнал.

Я понял, что мой прибор не годится для того, чтобы ехать на перевал Дятлова и пытаться что-то там определить.
С другой стороны, природный фон всегда есть (прибор всегда должен пищать, это как вода с микробами), его отсутствие - тоже странность. Например, проблема с батарейками внутри, если не миркосхема. При плохих батарейках прибор показывает вдвое меньшее излучение. (мне так показалось)


Второй момент, мой дозиметр показывает в квартире и других домах фон от 6 до 26 микрорентген (норма 13, но обычно было её превышение 16). Когда я в конце апреля смотрел в youtube вылазку по заброшенным домам в чернобыльской зоне,
Я видел как человек стоял на балконе многоэтажки, и дозиметр показывал 2800-2900 микрорентген гамма-излучения (такой же серый дозиметр БЕЛЛА,как и мой). Фон одежды, которая была отправлена Ивановым на экспертизу, соответствует примерно фону 80. Т.е. в обычных условиях это завышенный фон, который я никогда не наблюдал счётчиком, но это и не последствие серьёзной аварии.Это может быть в 20 м от Чернобыля,напрмиер.

Люди, не изучавшие физику. когда начинают пользоваться таким прибором, домохозяйки говорят смешные вещи: "У нас в разных местах квартиры этот прибор показывает разную радиацию", от чего я смеюсь.


Хотя экспертиза для Иванова определила бета-излучение для органов погибших и для их одежды, здесь надо вспомнить такую русскую пословицу - "отделить мух от котлет". Бета-радиоактивность тел при таких малых - это не последствие воздействия, а нормальное облучение в течение его жизни, в смысле - потребление  калий-40, углерод-14 (как, например, загорелость человека на солнце). Как я это понимаю после атомных бомб в Хиросиме и Нагасаки на момент облучения горели деревянные дома, в условиях облучения из углерод-12  образовался углерод-14, который летал в атмосфере по всей планете, яблоня превратила его в яблоко по процессу фотосинтеза, яблоко вы скушали и часть его в вас осталось. Втойро вариан - углекислый газ высоко в атмосфере под воздействием космического излучения. Экспертиза Левашова это момент умалчивает и упоминает только калий-40.

Если радиация есть, это не означает, что её должно не быть. Вторая экспертиза: Радиоактивность одежды является странным, а как же она возникла? Конечно, хлопок тоже содержит углерод, но мне кажется другая причина (пыль на одежде). Почему не возникла обычная гамма-радиация? Это как например я посмотрел в мусорный ящик во дворе, а там только зелёная трава или жёлтый песок вместо разноцветного мусора.

Чтобы определить от чего этого радиация из 2-3 изотопов, надо изучать справочники, как вариант распад стронций-иттрий-цирконий, распад прометий-самарий  и распад европий-гадолиний (радиоактивые номера), дальше я перестал изучать. Может ли это быть водород-тритий (тут возникают интересные теории), я пока некомпетентен ответить.

Универсальные приборы на альфа, бета и гамма излучения, как я предполагаю, плохо чувствительны к альфа и бета,
потому что пластмассовый корпус является существенным препятствием для этого излучения.
Т.е. прибор, как у Тайменя на видео, с пластмассовым корпусом. может детектировать бета-излучение

Я даже не знаю, с каким прибором надо ехать, возможно с таким (типа теннисный столик),
как был у нас на лабораторных работах. Простыми словами, экспертиза для Иванова делалась в лабораторных условиях,
и обычном прибором для ширпотреба не ловится.

Почему не продаются такие приборы, потому что они обычно специально не нужны, потому что бета-радиация обычно сопровождается гамм-радиацией, которая лучше проникает через препятствия и для которой вселенная как бы прозрачна. Что там как опасно я пока не знаю.

Единица рентген была введена для рентгеновского излучения, но применяется также для гамма-излучения
Рентгены якобы устаревшая единица измерения. как например русская верста вместо метров.
Есть также системная единица измерения зиверты, но "устаревшие" рентгены продолжают широко использоваться, как и устаревшие дюймы. Про использование зивертов я не слышал.  По крайней мере, упоминание зивертов вызывает дисмкомфорт. Для альфа и бета излучения рентгены не подходят, эти излучения измеряются в импульсах или каких-то других единицах.  Сейчас  я не помню, а в справочниках это так просто не найдёшь быстро. Я не могу понять, или это архаизм (как использование "дина вместо ньютон), или наоборот норма.


Возможно я что-то представляю неправильно из того, что я написал.
Из того, что я изучал в 16-20 лет и запоминал, как формулы и стихотворения, сейчас у меня ко многому возникают вопросы.

Например, если альфа-частица это гелий (2 протона+2 нейтрона), то куда деваются 2 электрона при распаде атома?
Второй момент, который я осознал, что бета распад это процесс не уменьшения атомного номера, а наоборот его увеличение (образным языком, это реакция синтеза в больший номер). Это например, как человек сбрасывает вес но не омолаживается, а  становится на год старше.

Вообще вся теория атомной физики напоминает теорию с перевалом Дятлова. Очень много диких фантазий и спорных теорий, которую в школе не изучают (скоро эта теория может измениться), всякие там поля Гиббса, а физика радиации это скорее своеобразный раздел химии с нарушением закона сохранения исходного вещества (в обычной химии), от которого нормальные физики (например, у нас в институте), специалисты именно по физике, например, по сверхпроводимости или лазерной оптике, стараются отмахнуться. "Зачем вы нам химию предлагаете?"

GlennM:
A radioactive trace is not an unknown compelling force.

Axelrod:

--- Quote from: GlennM on June 06, 2024, 06:19:06 AM ---A radioactive trace is not an unknown compelling force.

--- End quote ---
I accept both options. To understand the possible effects of radiation,
I need to read scientific articles. I found an article in Russian earlier, but it’s difficult for me to quote it here.
So I did a search in English, for example, here is reference to similar article.

https://inis.iaea.org/search/searchsinglerecord.aspx?recordsFor=SingleRecord&RN=35034526


META

The effect of electrons, neutron and gamma radiation on nitrocellulose
Heppell-Masys, K.M.
Excellence in the new millennium
2001

High nitrogen content nitrocellulose is mostly used as an explosive component in the fabrication of propellant. Slow evaporation of the stabiliser agents deteriorate the safe properties of these materials throughout the years, making them hazardous to handle well beyond their shelf lives. The irradiation may neutralize and convert the stocks of aged and unstable nitrocellulose explosives into less nitrated hence non-explosive substance.

GlennM:
Nitrocellulose is gun cotton or the propellant in bullets. The post suggests thst old ammunition is more unstable due to vapor leakage and weaker still if exposed to radiation. OK.
We are not going to suppose that still camera film in sub zero weather is going to spontaneously combust. We are not going to believe the hikers had ammunition, explosive camera film, a film reel of state secrets, nor Symphony in Gold squirreled away in their gear.
Bad weather and a slab slip are much better explanations, yes? Or, am I somehow missing the point?

Axelrod:
The film "Golden Symphony" (1955) is available on YouTube, lasts 96 minutes and consists of probably 10 parts, each weighing 2 kg. This film was made in 1956-58 from cellulose acetate, which burns at 500 * C and is not very dangerous.

The film "There is such a guy" "Among the people" (1939) by Maxim Gorky is the same length, it is a black and white film, and can be viewed at the link on Wikipedia. Most likely, it is made from nitrocellulose, which is fire hazardous and burns at 120*C. In addition to being a fire hazard, such film is highly toxic, especially when a lack of oxygen produces carbon monoxide (50% of smoke), nitrogen oxides (1/6 - 1/16) and hydrogen cyanide, which is toxic in small volumes.
It is unlikely that tourists could remove 1 reel out of ten.
I was surprised to find out all this when I studied this topic.
My mother has worked with movie cameras since 1970, when dangerous film was discontinued. But in the movie booth, as I remember, there was an iron door and there was nothing wooden.
My mother had 3 movie cameras at work for 8mm, 16mm (green) and 35mm (gray). The 8mm film camera has never been used.
The reels of the green movie camera rotated in plain sight, the reels of the large camera were covered with roofs with latches (hooks), which I remember well. Also on the top cover, there was a narrow vertical slot from which the film unwinds, apparently in order to understand that this part of the film will soon end, and it is necessary to switch to the next part.
All this equipment was installed in 1969 and worked until 1994 (when I was 17-18 years old).



there is the same film projector without these covers



Now my mother uses the camera lens as a magnifying glass. There is also a device for gluing 16 mm tape (I use it as a stand for the laptop power supply),
a piece of 35 mm film (like bookmarks) and filmstrips. We threw out all the film in 2010.

My mother worked as a director, but all the employees learned to use a movie camera when the projectionist Miron was laid off (he lived in a neighboring house and has already died). I sometimes rewound film, it’s like turning a sewing machine or a bicycle.
The last time I dealt with movie cameras was in 1998. In order to play a long film, it must be recharged on parallel cinema cameras every 10 minutes.

At our school the projectionist was a Jew, with whom my father knew well. One day he did not come to work on Sunday when he had to turn on the equipment at the polling station. And he was fired.
BUT I was more familiar with videotapes.
---

As for the snow slab, I think it also has a place in this story, but much later, at the last stage, then  Zolotaryov and Dubinina were found in May in a stream. There can’t be an avalanche on a tent, that’s always been said.

I think that specialists in medicine and radiation will be able to draw their own conclusions based on the examination of a criminal case if they are given a picture of the events. Beta elements could be an isotope of rubidium or radium, but I think such elements have no place in this story.
Judging by the medical diagnosis, the tourists had central cyanosis (the classification also includes peripheral cyanosis), but this was never mentioned. Exposure to nitric acid vapor is also possible, this has been said many times.
So far, these experts do not know how to work using deductive methods.

If you think that the tourists got a movie @Symphonie in Gold@ that they watched at the club, or they used the film in cameras, or the film (as 16 mm) was from the UPI studio, this indicates that you are thinking strangely with your head. It irritates me to communicate with such people. The most funny vesrion supposes film diameter for 16 mm bu used in photocameras

I wrote an epigraph from Pushkin exactly about my relative here
I wrote to his wife before HERs death recently that you didn’t solve anything, you didn’t achieve what you wanted, but you created such a gorgeous mythical story.


[–] And the guys died, some on the mountain, some in the forest... Indeed, the hypothesis very convincingly proves all the damage. This version has been suffered for years, and, according to Moisei Abramovich, it covers everything. He said this: “We need to convey this guess to people, while I’m alive.” The version is certainly good, materialistic, but there is one discrepancy in it: in the place where the tent stood, and on the entire visible slope, that is, above and below, right and left, in principle there can be no talk of any avalanche there. Any specialist will confirm this.


  My uncle of the highest codes,
   When he became very ill,
   He claimed respect from all his folks,
   And hadn't invented better thing....
   He is exemplary for others,

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