Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nigel Evans on February 10, 2019, 05:24:34 AM
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Just been reading this :-Meanwhile the UPI Sports Club realized that they lacked the itinerary of the group. With great effort relatives of the missing tourists managed to find a man who knew the details of their expedition—Ignat Ryagin, an executive at the Ural Copper Exploration Company. He had given Igor Dyatlov detailed classified maps of the area, perhaps in exchange for a job to perform. Ryagin's information sped up the beginning of the search and rescue operations.
Lobatcheva, Irina. Dyatlov Pass Keeps Its Secret (p. 4). Parallel Worlds' Books. Kindle Edition.
and
When developing the route of the future trip, Igor Dyatlov spoke with Ignat Ryagin, a deputy chief of a local exploration company. He provided the group with classified maps (large scale maps with the size of objects more than 1/1,000,000 of their size on the ground were treated as secret) and an official travel document; the latter helped them to get assistance from local authorities. Apparently, the Dyatlov group was to perform a certain assignment for Ryagin.
Lobatcheva, Irina. Dyatlov Pass Keeps Its Secret (p. 10). Parallel Worlds' Books. Kindle Edition.
So we have :-
- Igor is given classified maps and a mission.
- A highly experienced alpinist and WW2 veteran joins the group shortly before they commence (from memory pushing another candidate off the list).
- Then they divert from the planned route and elect to make a very uncomfortable camp near the top of Kholat Syakhl.
- Then they die in mysterious circumstances with Semyon found with a camera around his neck and a (disappeared) notebook. Nearly everyone in the group of nine had a camera but half of these are missing?
- The local police investigator Tempalov is quickly replaced by another from head office Ivanov.
- By mid March the Ivanov is openly discussing fire orbs (presumably from unseen film).
- Ivanov is summoned to Moscow.
- On his return Ivanov is changed and advises people to cease discussing fire orbs.
- Then evidence is confiscated and the police investigators are ordered to invent a cover story and present it face to face to distressed relatives a task they state much later they found difficult.
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Igor is given classified maps and a mission.
What map in 1959 communist USSR wouldn't be "classified" to one level or another? Its not like they were for sale on the open market where those scummy Americans and their allies can learn detailed information about their countries topography and god knows what else. Just because the US had the U2 doesn't mean they were going to serve this information up on a silver platter on the open market..... thats stupid. IT was a very hot 'cold' war....... remember?
Furthermore. These hikers are in the communist party. All devotion and complete commitment to the party is required to be a 'good, communist, especially when your a young lad attending the communist state technical school where they were likely hand picked for a promising future in a high-tech industry like enriching plutonium and long distance communications.... do you even remember the space race?
This is a government collage, not Cambridge or UCLA, and as you know, several of the victims had already graduated in their field of study and had taken up positions like enriching uranium, and a contamination/containment/cleanup specialist. IF you bother to read their diaries, you will see things like how Yuri Yudin was collecting geological rock specimens the morning he headed back...... They were all doing this, and in the case files it is noted the rock samples found in their bags. Its not in any way unusual for the government to utilize its state operated university, staff, and students to gather geological information (rock samples) in effort to better understand the mineral deposits of seldom explored rural areas, especially when at this time the Kremlin was heavily seeking to expand their domestic oil production and find new sources of things like uranium or any other valuable deposits.
Given my above statements, what would be so unusual about the university staff, students, and former graduates collaborating and performing tasks for the communist party and to aid in its agenda? These 'kids' were but one spoke in the communist wheel and will be utilized accordingly.
One has to wonder the consequences for distributing, or even creating something that would be valuable to the enemy in 1959 communist ussr. Everything was secret, or guarded information to one extent or another. nose1 The active students of the group were on a geological/mineral collecting side-assignment, this is well known. Think of it as a "Hey, we need rock/mineral samples from this area to aid in the party agenda. Pick up some samples while your out there like a good little Commie."
A highly experienced alpinist and WW2 veteran joins the group shortly before they commence (from memory pushing another candidate off the list)
I dont think thats the case at all..... there WAS a 10th member that missed the train. No conspiracy needed.
Then they divert from the planned route and elect to make a very uncomfortable camp near the top of Kholat Syakhl.
Everything is a conspiracy for you isn't it Nigel? Your talking about 1 mile, and would it be unheard of to get a little off-course in the wilderness and take corrective action? He over-shot the pass on their right obscured by tall trees by MAYBE 1/2mi. When the mistake was noticed, they made a storage cache and traversed the ridge in a line that would exactly intersect the original route at the north side if the mountain, and everything after climbing the ridge would be down-hill skiing unobstructed by this forest.
Then they die in mysterious circumstances with Semyon found with a camera around his neck and a (disappeared) notebook.?
Oh, they mysteriously died alright, Im not challenging you on that. However, there is nothing "mysterious" about one of them having a camera.
Nearly everyone in the group of nine had a camera but half of these are missing?
Seriously? 7 cameras and 9 people.... do the math.
The local police investigator Tempalov is quickly replaced by another from head office Ivanov.
And? They had not one but TWO incompetent 'investigators'. Have you seen the lack of detail and utter decimation of the scene in which the first 5 were found? shock1
By mid March the Ivanov is openly discussing fire orbs (presumably from unseen film).
A pathetic man inventing explanations from thin air because he was incompetent and had no clue what happened..... due to his own ignorance. "(presumably from unseen film)" More speculation based on zero evidence. This is what you do when you have a need to invent false facts in efforts to support a weak narrative.
Ivanov is summoned to Moscow.
On his return Ivanov is changed and advises people to cease discussing fire orbs.
Lemme guess..... more conspiracy. Perhaps he got a royal ass-chewing for being a window-licking crayon-eating incompetent investigator that couldn't solve where rain comes from? whist1
Then evidence is confiscated and the police investigators are ordered to invent a cover story and present it face to face to distressed relatives a task they state much later they found difficult.
Meh, perhaps...... But I guess parts of what you state above (once again), the burden of proof is on you. wink1
I hate having to make long posts like this just to shred a conspiracy theory. bang1
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All mentioned above can easily be explained as blatant incompetence of the investigators. That is exactly how the (criminal) justice worked in the Soviet union. To the police chief or local prosecutor, it was always more "comfortable" not to have unsolved homicide/manslaughter in their jurisdiction. I know from personal account how such cases (all dead, no witness, no apparent culprit) were approached. If DPI was a traffic accident, it would be closed down in as "just an accident" even if one of the involved was speeding with no lights at night. Nobody survived, nobody saw anything, no cameras and local prosecutor and investigators can claim their bonuses for being good communists and keeping the crime rate low.
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Igor is given classified maps and a mission.
What map in 1959 communist USSR wouldn't be "classified" to one level or another? Its not like they were for sale on the open market where those scummy Americans and their allies can learn detailed information about their countries topography and god knows what else. Just because the US had the U2 doesn't mean they were going to serve this information up on a silver platter on the open market..... thats stupid. IT was a very hot 'cold' war....... remember?
Furthermore. These hikers are in the communist party. All devotion and complete commitment to the party is required to be a 'good, communist, especially when your a young lad attending the communist state technical school where they were likely hand picked for a promising future in a high-tech industry like enriching plutonium and long distance communications.... do you even remember the space race?
This is a government collage, not Cambridge or UCLA, and as you know, several of the victims had already graduated in their field of study and had taken up positions like enriching uranium, and a contamination/containment/cleanup specialist. IF you bother to read their diaries, you will see things like how Yuri Yudin was collecting geological rock specimens the morning he headed back...... They were all doing this, and in the case files it is noted the rock samples found in their bags. Its not in any way unusual for the government to utilize its state operated university, staff, and students to gather geological information (rock samples) in effort to better understand the mineral deposits of seldom explored rural areas, especially when at this time the Kremlin was heavily seeking to expand their domestic oil production and find new sources of things like uranium or any other valuable deposits.
Given my above statements, what would be so unusual about the university staff, students, and former graduates collaborating and performing tasks for the communist party and to aid in its agenda? These 'kids' were but one spoke in the communist wheel and will be utilized accordingly.
One has to wonder the consequences for distributing, or even creating something that would be valuable to the enemy in 1959 communist ussr. Everything was secret, or guarded information to one extent or another. nose1 The active students of the group were on a geological/mineral collecting side-assignment, this is well known. Think of it as a "Hey, we need rock/mineral samples from this area to aid in the party agenda. Pick up some samples while your out there like a good little Commie."
You make a fair point if with far too many words...
A highly experienced alpinist and WW2 veteran joins the group shortly before they commence (from memory pushing another candidate off the list)
I dont think thats the case at all..... there WAS a 10th member that missed the train. No conspiracy needed.
It's an anomaly imo.
Then they divert from the planned route and elect to make a very uncomfortable camp near the top of Kholat Syakhl.
Everything is a conspiracy for you isn't it Nigel? Your talking about 1 mile, and would it be unheard of to get a little off-course in the wilderness and take corrective action? He over-shot the pass on their right obscured by tall trees by MAYBE 1/2mi. When the mistake was noticed, they made a storage cache and traversed the ridge in a line that would exactly intersect the original route at the north side if the mountain, and everything after climbing the ridge would be down-hill skiing unobstructed by this forest.
No way he overshot, they went up there on purpose.
Then they die in mysterious circumstances with Semyon found with a camera around his neck and a (disappeared) notebook.?
Oh, they mysteriously died alright, Im not challenging you on that. However, there is nothing "mysterious" about one of them having a camera.
Nearly everyone in the group of nine had a camera but half of these are missing?
Seriously? 7 cameras and 9 people.... do the math.
This website only lists 5 cameras?
The local police investigator Tempalov is quickly replaced by another from head office Ivanov.
And? They had not one but TWO incompetent 'investigators'. Have you seen the lack of detail and utter decimation of the scene in which the first 5 were found? shock1
The instruction not to tamper with the tent site reached the rescue group too late (just by seveal hours?). It's unfortunate but not incompetent.
By mid March the Ivanov is openly discussing fire orbs (presumably from unseen film).
A pathetic man inventing explanations from thin air because he was incompetent and had no clue what happened..... due to his own ignorance. "(presumably from unseen film)" More speculation based on zero evidence. This is what you do when you have a need to invent false facts in efforts to support a weak narrative.Inexperienced lawyer Vladimir Korotaev was dismissed from the case. Prosecutor-criminalist Lev Ivanov, the most skillful professional in advanced investigative techniques from the Sverdlovsk Prosecution Office, joined the investigation. The inclusion of Ivanov in the brigade of investigators indicated that the prosecution found it difficult to explain the tourists' deaths.
Lobatcheva, Irina. Dyatlov Pass Keeps Its Secret (pp. 5-6). Parallel Worlds' Books. Kindle Edition.
Ivanov is summoned to Moscow.
On his return Ivanov is changed and advises people to cease discussing fire orbs.
Lemme guess..... more conspiracy. Perhaps he got a royal ass-chewing for being a window-licking crayon-eating incompetent investigator that couldn't solve where rain comes from? whist1 In mid-March, Ivanov was called away to Moscow for reasons that he would not disclose to others in his office. Upon his return, Karelin and others noticed a pronounced change in his demeanor. “[W]e could not recognize him when he returned,” Karelin said years later. “He didn’t mention murder or spheres anymore. And he’d often advise us to ‘hold our tongues.’ ” In a 1990 letter to the Leninsky Put newspaper, Ivanov revealed that the regional Communist Party committee had instructed him not to pursue the connection between the strange lights in the sky and the hikers’ deaths. He wrote that during the Cold War, “Such topics were prohibited in order to prevent the slightest possibility of disclosing data on missile and nuclear techniques.” If Ivanov had up to that point been entertaining his own theories of murder and UFOs, he was told to set those theories aside for the good of his country.
Eichar, Donnie. Dead Mountain (p. 205). Chronicle Books LLC. Kindle Edition.
Then evidence is confiscated and the police investigators are ordered to invent a cover story and present it face to face to distressed relatives a task they state much later they found difficult.
Meh, perhaps...... But I guess parts of what you state above (once again), the burden of proof is on you. wink1 Okishev says in his interview that he trouble sleeping at night.
I hate having to make long posts like this just to shred a conspiracy theory. bang1
Rolls eyes - rolleyes1 rolleyes1 rolleyes1
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No way he overshot, they went up there on purpose.
Burden of proof my friend.
The instruction not to tamper with the tent site reached the rescue group too late (just by seveal hours?). It's unfortunate but not incompetent.
After the investigator arrived etc....... shitshow of an investigation. No doubt about it.
Inexperienced lawyer Vladimir Korotaev was dismissed from the case.
See what I mean?
Prosecutor-criminalist Lev Ivanov, the most skillful professional in advanced investigative techniques from the Sverdlovsk Prosecution Office, joined the investigation.
Bias opinion of an author with a narrative to push. whist1
Okishev says in his interview that he trouble sleeping at night.
Guilt and shame are hard things to forget about ones self? They make pills for that.
Are you just going to quote books that are fundamentally biased and often flat out wrong?
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No way he overshot, they went up there on purpose.
Burden of proof my friend.Igor's entry in group diary is my proof. What's yours?
The instruction not to tamper with the tent site reached the rescue group too late (just by seveal hours?). It's unfortunate but not incompetent.
After the investigator arrived etc....... shitshow of an investigation. No doubt about it.
From memory the rescue group received the instruction not to tamper on the evening of the first day at the tent. Too late. But not incompetence, just unfortunate.
Inexperienced lawyer Vladimir Korotaev was dismissed from the case.
See what I mean?No.
Prosecutor-criminalist Lev Ivanov, the most skillful professional in advanced investigative techniques from the Sverdlovsk Prosecution Office, joined the investigation.
Bias opinion of an author with a narrative to push. whist1
Burden of proof my friend.
Okishev says in his interview that he trouble sleeping at night.
Guilt and shame are hard things to forget about ones self? They make pills for that.
???
Are you just going to quote books that are fundamentally biased and often flat out wrong?Why should your opinion overrule their research?
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Im done here, its not a conversation. Its wild speculation based on false facts.
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It is a shame that the guru is so dismissive. This is likely the place where civility breaks down, ala Facebook. For those willing to continue the discourse, I think that if low flying Soviet jets seems far fetched, perhaps another speculation is in order. If the location was overflown and flares dropped before a bomb run, using live ordinance would be both expensive and destructive. Dropping dummy bombs means someone will have to retrieve them. If the pilot dropped a concussion air burst munition, would fragments exist even now? A concussive air burst could produce internal injuries as well as shards on the countryside.It also means that there is no Soviet property that must be picked up.
I maintain that in the absence of evidence of a ground based menace or assault, only the immediate and compelling threat of an air strike would compel 9 reasonable adults to clear the tent, walk or run 30 minutes in snow to achieve relative safety of the tree line. In such a circumstance if you are more than half way down the slope and thought the danger is past, tree shelter and a fire beats standing on a snowy hillside trying to make up the collective mind. Only the thought of getting bombed, shot or caught in a vibration induced snowslide is going to put that kind of fear in 9 reasonable adults. Once they reach the forest and warm up, injuries can be evaluated and a plan for survival made. That plan is to go back and get supplies, dig a snow cave and keep the fire going. It was too little too late.
Again, thank you all for posting your thoughts. Whether I am right or wrong, I like the critical thinking from the forum members. I am disappointed by the scorn.
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It is a shame that the guru is so dismissive. This is likely the place where civility breaks down, ala Facebook. For those willing to continue the discourse, I think that if low flying Soviet jets seems far fetched, perhaps another speculation is in order. If the location was overflown and flares dropped before a bomb run, using live ordinance would be both expensive and destructive. Dropping dummy bombs means someone will have to retrieve them. If the pilot dropped a concussion air burst munition, would fragments exist even now? A concussive air burst could produce internal injuries as well as shards on the countryside.It also means that there is no Soviet property that must be picked up.
I maintain that in the absence of evidence of a ground based menace or assault, only the immediate and compelling threat of an air strike would compel 9 reasonable adults to clear the tent, walk or run 30 minutes in snow to achieve relative safety of the tree line. In such a circumstance if you are more than half way down the slope and thought the danger is past, tree shelter and a fire beats standing on a snowy hillside trying to make up the collective mind. Only the thought of getting bombed, shot or caught in a vibration induced snowslide is going to put that kind of fear in 9 reasonable adults. Once they reach the forest and warm up, injuries can be evaluated and a plan for survival made. That plan is to go back and get supplies, dig a snow cave and keep the fire going. It was too little too late.
Again, thank you all for posting your thoughts. Whether I am right or wrong, I like the critical thinking from the forum members. I am disappointed by the scorn.
I have carried out some detailed analysis of the injuries in another thread on “low yield nuclear device test “ and the injuries are more consistent with a fall from between 5 and 7 metres than a shock wave.
Also if the chest injuries and thibo’s skull fracture happened at the tent then I doubt they would have been able to walk down the slope. Also why would only three of them have such horrific injuries if a device fell near their camp site?
Welcome to the rabbit hole grin1
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Im done here, its not a conversation. Its wild speculation based on false facts.
There are no "true" facts other than they are dead and something caused it. Everything else is speculation to some degree.
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Just been reading this :-Meanwhile the UPI Sports Club realized that they lacked the itinerary of the group. With great effort relatives of the missing tourists managed to find a man who knew the details of their expedition—Ignat Ryagin, an executive at the Ural Copper Exploration Company. He had given Igor Dyatlov detailed classified maps of the area, perhaps in exchange for a job to perform. Ryagin's information sped up the beginning of the search and rescue operations.
Lobatcheva, Irina. Dyatlov Pass Keeps Its Secret (p. 4). Parallel Worlds' Books. Kindle Edition.
and
When developing the route of the future trip, Igor Dyatlov spoke with Ignat Ryagin, a deputy chief of a local exploration company. He provided the group with classified maps (large scale maps with the size of objects more than 1/1,000,000 of their size on the ground were treated as secret) and an official travel document; the latter helped them to get assistance from local authorities. Apparently, the Dyatlov group was to perform a certain assignment for Ryagin.
Lobatcheva, Irina. Dyatlov Pass Keeps Its Secret (p. 10). Parallel Worlds' Books. Kindle Edition.
So we have :-
- Igor is given classified maps and a mission.
- A highly experienced alpinist and WW2 veteran joins the group shortly before they commence (from memory pushing another candidate off the list).
- Then they divert from the planned route and elect to make a very uncomfortable camp near the top of Kholat Syakhl.
- Then they die in mysterious circumstances with Semyon found with a camera around his neck and a (disappeared) notebook. Nearly everyone in the group of nine had a camera but half of these are missing?
- The local police investigator Tempalov is quickly replaced by another from head office Ivanov.
- By mid March the Ivanov is openly discussing fire orbs (presumably from unseen film).
- Ivanov is summoned to Moscow.
- On his return Ivanov is changed and advises people to cease discussing fire orbs.
- Then evidence is confiscated and the police investigators are ordered to invent a cover story and present it face to face to distressed relatives a task they state much later they found difficult.
Yes but havnt we been over this ground in other Posts ! ?
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Im done here, its not a conversation. Its wild speculation based on false facts.
There are no "true" facts other than they are dead and something caused it. Everything else is speculation to some degree.
So is the DPI solvable?
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Yes but havnt we been over this ground in other Posts ! ?
Not the maps / mission facet? It's new to me. Yet another piece of state involvement. Sort of creates a tipping point perhaps.
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Im done here, its not a conversation. Its wild speculation based on false facts.
There are no "true" facts other than they are dead and something caused it. Everything else is speculation to some degree.
So is the DPI solvable?
With the archive yes. Without it only plausible narratives that create argument. But if i'm right about BL/NO2 etc then time is on my side. Science will catch up and gain an understanding of what nature can and has done.
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Im done here, its not a conversation. Its wild speculation based on false facts.
There are no "true" facts other than they are dead and something caused it. Everything else is speculation to some degree.
So is the DPI solvable?
I would have thought that it may be solved one day, but nothing is certain. A lot depends on whether or not there is any more information yet to be divulged. And lets not forget the new investigation by the Authorities.
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I think there is enough evidence/information to solve it to a relatively high degree of certainty, but it’s not going to be easy.
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I think there is enough evidence/information to solve it to a relatively high degree of certainty, but it’s not going to be easy.
But to whose satisfaction? Lets take the NO2 theory. It seems to tick all the boxes, leaves no outstanding questions, is reinforced by Chivruay but most people here don't like it and don't subscribe to it!
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I think there is enough evidence/information to solve it to a relatively high degree of certainty, but it’s not going to be easy.
But to whose satisfaction? Lets take the NO2 theory. It seems to tick all the boxes, leaves no outstanding questions, is reinforced by Chivruay but most people here don't like it and don't subscribe to it!
N.B. wrt Chivruay there could be photographic evidence for the NO2 theory!But people choose other explanations and they always will.
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I think there is enough evidence/information to solve it to a relatively high degree of certainty, but it’s not going to be easy.
But to whose satisfaction? Lets take the NO2 theory. It seems to tick all the boxes, leaves no outstanding questions, is reinforced by Chivruay but most people here don't like it and don't subscribe to it!
The NO2 is credible you’re right. But there needs to be an underpinned credible source with some evidence. We’re missing the evidence.
There are things that point towards it and the absence of things in the investigation like the toxicology report, but there needs to be more evidence cry2
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I think there is enough evidence/information to solve it to a relatively high degree of certainty, but it’s not going to be easy.
Presumably you mean evidence that is kept in safe keeping by the Authorities ! ?
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I think there is enough evidence/information to solve it to a relatively high degree of certainty, but it’s not going to be easy.
But to whose satisfaction? Lets take the NO2 theory. It seems to tick all the boxes, leaves no outstanding questions, is reinforced by Chivruay but most people here don't like it and don't subscribe to it!
No wonder most people dont like the theory. It might tick your boxes but not others. And it leaves plenty of questions. And can you enlighten us on why its reinforced by CHIVRUAY ! ?
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I think there is enough evidence/information to solve it to a relatively high degree of certainty, but it’s not going to be easy.
But to whose satisfaction? Lets take the NO2 theory. It seems to tick all the boxes, leaves no outstanding questions, is reinforced by Chivruay but most people here don't like it and don't subscribe to it!
N.B. wrt Chivruay there could be photographic evidence for the NO2 theory!But people choose other explanations and they always will.
You say there could be photographic evidence for your NO2 theory. Where is it ! ?
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I think there is enough evidence/information to solve it to a relatively high degree of certainty, but it’s not going to be easy.
But to whose satisfaction? Lets take the NO2 theory. It seems to tick all the boxes, leaves no outstanding questions, is reinforced by Chivruay but most people here don't like it and don't subscribe to it!
The NO2 is credible you’re right. But there needs to be an underpinned credible source with some evidence. We’re missing the evidence.
There are things that point towards it and the absence of things in the investigation like the toxicology report, but there needs to be more evidence cry2
And without evidence the theory is going nowhere.
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I think there is enough evidence/information to solve it to a relatively high degree of certainty, but it’s not going to be easy.
But to whose satisfaction? Lets take the NO2 theory. It seems to tick all the boxes, leaves no outstanding questions, is reinforced by Chivruay but most people here don't like it and don't subscribe to it!
No wonder most people dont like the theory. It might tick your boxes but not others. And it leaves plenty of questions. What questions?
And can you enlighten us on why its reinforced by CHIVRUAY ! ?
Because of the similarities to the DPI - http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=204.0
Particularly the yellow skin.
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I think there is enough evidence/information to solve it to a relatively high degree of certainty, but it’s not going to be easy.
But to whose satisfaction? Lets take the NO2 theory. It seems to tick all the boxes, leaves no outstanding questions, is reinforced by Chivruay but most people here don't like it and don't subscribe to it!
The NO2 is credible you’re right. But there needs to be an underpinned credible source with some evidence. We’re missing the evidence.
There are things that point towards it and the absence of things in the investigation like the toxicology report, but there needs to be more evidence cry2
And without evidence the theory is going nowhere.
There are possible ways to get the evidence without having the original investigation case files.
Soil core samples from the area on and around Kholat Syakhl might be one possible way. Examination of tree growth rings may be another. Of course you would have to know what you were looking for.
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Still, its way better compared to wandering yetis or murderous aliens.
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I think there is enough evidence/information to solve it to a relatively high degree of certainty, but it’s not going to be easy.
But to whose satisfaction? Lets take the NO2 theory. It seems to tick all the boxes, leaves no outstanding questions, is reinforced by Chivruay but most people here don't like it and don't subscribe to it!
No wonder most people dont like the theory. It might tick your boxes but not others. And it leaves plenty of questions. What questions?
And can you enlighten us on why its reinforced by CHIVRUAY ! ?
Because of the similarities to the DPI - http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=204.0
Particularly the yellow skin.
This is hardly a reinforcement though. There may be some similarities but how many ! ? And skin colour could be due to FREEZING maybe.
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I think there is enough evidence/information to solve it to a relatively high degree of certainty, but it’s not going to be easy.
But to whose satisfaction? Lets take the NO2 theory. It seems to tick all the boxes, leaves no outstanding questions, is reinforced by Chivruay but most people here don't like it and don't subscribe to it!
The NO2 is credible you’re right. But there needs to be an underpinned credible source with some evidence. We’re missing the evidence.
There are things that point towards it and the absence of things in the investigation like the toxicology report, but there needs to be more evidence cry2
And without evidence the theory is going nowhere.
There are possible ways to get the evidence without having the original investigation case files.
Soil core samples from the area on and around Kholat Syakhl might be one possible way. Examination of tree growth rings may be another. Of course you would have to know what you were looking for.
Well the Authorities will be in the area in question in March carrying out an investigation. But just what evidence is found or useful remains to be seen.
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Still, its way better compared to wandering yetis or murderous aliens.
Why is it way better ! ? All theories are on the table.
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Still, its way better compared to wandering yetis or murderous aliens.
Why is it way better ! ? All theories are on the table.
Because NO2 exists on Earth, unlike yeti. The theory is meant to explain what happened (or what may have happened), not to explain one mystery by another.
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This is hardly a reinforcement though. There may be some similarities but how many ! ?
- Irrational behaviour - they chose to leave the safety of their camp at a strange hour.
- They were found with yellow/orange skin.
- They seemed unable to continue and just stopped and froze to death, 8 people at Chivruay and DPI the returning 3.
- Very high winds and snow where involved in both.
And skin colour could be due to FREEZING maybe.I'd need you to find some evidence.
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Still, its way better compared to wandering yetis or murderous aliens.
Why is it way better ! ? All theories are on the table.
Because NO2 exists on Earth, unlike yeti. The theory is meant to explain what happened (or what may have happened), not to explain one mystery by another.
How do you know that there are not such creatures on Earth ! ? Plenty of witnesses. Nitrogen dioxide (NO2) is one of a group of gases called nitrogen oxides. Road transport is estimated to be responsible for about 50% of total emissions of nitrogen oxides, which means that nitrogen dioxide levels are highest close to busy roads and in large urban areas. Its a wonder that we havnt had thousands of Dyatlov Incidents if NO2 is playing a part.
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This is hardly a reinforcement though. There may be some similarities but how many ! ?
- Irrational behaviour - they chose to leave the safety of their camp at a strange hour.
- They were found with yellow/orange skin.
- They seemed unable to continue and just stopped and froze to death, 8 people at Chivruay and DPI the returning 3.
- Very high winds and snow where involved in both.
And skin colour could be due to FREEZING maybe.I'd need you to find some evidence.
[1] Irrational behaviour, because they left the safety of their camp ! ? They left the Tent because of an EVENT. Every reason to think they knew exactly what they were doing when they left the TENT. They were scared or terrified of something. Thats not irrational behaviour.
[2] They were found with yellow / orange skin. How yellow and how orange ! ? a witness at the funerals says ''Why were their faces and hands all so dark brown'' . Apparently under the clothing was some orangeness of the skin, and some think it was due to the mortuary where the bodies were kept. No color photos of the bodies.
[3] They seemed unable to continue and just stopped and froze to death. Well obviously they would in those conditions, not properly equipped and without the shelter of the TENT, and of course with some very serious injuries to some of the Group.
[4] Very high winds and snow were involved. Yes its Siberia and that area is well known for high winds and snow.
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Still, its way better compared to wandering yetis or murderous aliens.
Why is it way better ! ? All theories are on the table.
Because NO2 exists on Earth, unlike yeti. The theory is meant to explain what happened (or what may have happened), not to explain one mystery by another.
How do you know that there are not such creatures on Earth ! ? Plenty of witnesses. Nitrogen dioxide (NO2) is one of a group of gases called nitrogen oxides. Road transport is estimated to be responsible for about 50% of total emissions of nitrogen oxides, which means that nitrogen dioxide levels are highest close to busy roads and in large urban areas. Its a wonder that we havnt had thousands of Dyatlov Incidents if NO2 is playing a part.
It is a logical fallacy to demand a proof of non-existence of an entity that is not even defined (yeti, unicorns, dragons etc.) We cannot just claim that a random statement is true until proven wrong because it defies the very essence of logic. Burden of proof is on people who claim to have seen or otherwise experienced a "yeti" and they failed to provide a single ONE in whole history. Such approach is not applicable in law or anywhere. There are too many variables to prove basically any of the theories but we should stick to logic and science to move forward.
As for the NO2/gas poisoning, there are millions of deaths related to "gas poisoning", mostly as a result of strong pollution, then we have some deliberate poisonings, random ones etc...perfecty possible cause of death. The source of the gas is a problematic issue. But same rules apply, we cannot claim the PRESENCE of NO2 as a fact until we can explain the source, but the EXISTENCE of NO2 as such is a proven fact. Then even if we could possibly prove PRESENCE, the next step would be to prove enough concentration to be dangerous.
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Still, its way better compared to wandering yetis or murderous aliens.
Why is it way better ! ? All theories are on the table.
Because NO2 exists on Earth, unlike yeti. The theory is meant to explain what happened (or what may have happened), not to explain one mystery by another.
How do you know that there are not such creatures on Earth ! ? Plenty of witnesses. Nitrogen dioxide (NO2) is one of a group of gases called nitrogen oxides. Road transport is estimated to be responsible for about 50% of total emissions of nitrogen oxides, which means that nitrogen dioxide levels are highest close to busy roads and in large urban areas. Its a wonder that we havnt had thousands of Dyatlov Incidents if NO2 is playing a part.
It is a logical fallacy to demand a proof of non-existence of an entity that is not even defined (yeti, unicorns, dragons etc.) We cannot just claim that a random statement is true until proven wrong because it defies the very essence of logic. Burden of proof is on people who claim to have seen or otherwise experienced a "yeti" and they failed to provide a single ONE in whole history. Such approach is not applicable in law or anywhere. There are too many variables to prove basically any of the theories but we should stick to logic and science to move forward.
As for the NO2/gas poisoning, there are millions of deaths related to "gas poisoning", mostly as a result of strong pollution, then we have some deliberate poisonings, random ones etc...perfecty possible cause of death. The source of the gas is a problematic issue. But same rules apply, we cannot claim the PRESENCE of NO2 as a fact until we can explain the source, but the EXISTENCE of NO2 as such is a proven fact. Then even if we could possibly prove PRESENCE, the next step would be to prove enough concentration to be dangerous.
[1] It is a logical fallacy to demand a proof of non-existence of an entity that is not even defined.
Well first of all, Iam not demanding anything, just stating FACTS. There are hundreds of witness statements concerning large creatures often called YETI or BIG FOOT or SASQUATCH or whatever. You might as well say that the PHYSICISTS working on the nitty gritty of matter are in error because they havnt yet proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the HIGGS BOSON is the missing link they thought it would be ! ? ETC.
[2] Yes NO2 is a GAS responsible for poisoning people. So are many other types of GAS and also RADIATION. ETC.
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Still, its way better compared to wandering yetis or murderous aliens.
Why is it way better ! ? All theories are on the table.
Because NO2 exists on Earth, unlike yeti. The theory is meant to explain what happened (or what may have happened), not to explain one mystery by another.
How do you know that there are not such creatures on Earth ! ? Plenty of witnesses. Nitrogen dioxide (NO2) is one of a group of gases called nitrogen oxides. Road transport is estimated to be responsible for about 50% of total emissions of nitrogen oxides, which means that nitrogen dioxide levels are highest close to busy roads and in large urban areas. Its a wonder that we havnt had thousands of Dyatlov Incidents if NO2 is playing a part.
It is a logical fallacy to demand a proof of non-existence of an entity that is not even defined (yeti, unicorns, dragons etc.) We cannot just claim that a random statement is true until proven wrong because it defies the very essence of logic. Burden of proof is on people who claim to have seen or otherwise experienced a "yeti" and they failed to provide a single ONE in whole history. Such approach is not applicable in law or anywhere. There are too many variables to prove basically any of the theories but we should stick to logic and science to move forward.
As for the NO2/gas poisoning, there are millions of deaths related to "gas poisoning", mostly as a result of strong pollution, then we have some deliberate poisonings, random ones etc...perfecty possible cause of death. The source of the gas is a problematic issue. But same rules apply, we cannot claim the PRESENCE of NO2 as a fact until we can explain the source, but the EXISTENCE of NO2 as such is a proven fact. Then even if we could possibly prove PRESENCE, the next step would be to prove enough concentration to be dangerous.
Agreed. Logic is the way. Here are a couple of pieces of logic. They are not indisputable but they are reasonable:
NO2 poisoning
Can explain the deaths of some of the group and some of the peculiarities of those deaths such as Edema of Yuri D. It can explain the lack of urine in bladders which is normally high with hypothermia, because they may have died of No2 poisoning before the cold got them. It explains why they died, even though they had a good fire, and many of them had good insulation, and why they left many items of clothing unused near the cedar and ravine. Gloves in pockets, jackets unzipped etc. yes they removed the clothes of the two Yuris but this should have given them even more protection. They could have survived the cold if they used their own bodies to insulate each other with some people on the outside, and rotating with those on the inside. If you look at the evidence there doesn't seem to be a good reason why they would freeze to death.
The injuries - can be explained by NO2 becaause it could have led to hypoxia and ultimately affect cognitive skills, resulting in falls.
During autopsy samples of body tissue were taken for histology and chemical analysis. Oh they must have misplaced or lost the toxicology report because it's not in the case file. Isnt that unfortunate.
Source of nitrogen dioxide:
9 people die ona cold mountain in the middle of nowhere - obviously as a part of the investigation you would request a radiation survey to be carried out. It's a standard part of any investigation right?
A low yield nuclear weapon detonated to the south west of Kholat Syakhl, has the potential to create a toxic radioactive dust cloud of NO2 of significant proportion, tens of square kilometres of toxic gas >>100ppm? This would be up wind of the camp and directly opposite the direction they went.
It still needs evidence though.