August 17, 2022, 09:14:52 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Why the group split  (Read 9487 times)

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August 15, 2020, 10:04:49 PM
Reply #30
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Georgi







I love this forum because the posts here by very intelligent people remind me of information I have not added to my theory.

You have reminded me of Zina's bleeding bruise on her waist. This helps confirm my theory.

I believe the hikers thought there was an avalanche due to a terrible storm on Mount Kholat Syakhl. This storm had extreme winds which carried snow down on their tent. This snow could not be distinguished from the start of an avalanche.

Tibo and Zolotaryov were outside dressed warmly and fixing/inspecting the tent due to high wind damage. Dyatlov communicated with them through slits he created in the tent and he would use a flashlight from time to time to see out the slits. He dropped this flashlight in the panic of the "avalanche" outside the tent where it was later found. Most of the snow later blew away during the three weeks it took for rescuers to arrive. Some snow remained on the tent with Igor's switched-off flashlight.
They were experienced hikers, they had nowhere safe to run to and could not expect a rescue in a reasonable time so their only safe action was to remain in the tent with their gear in the event of an avalanche. If they left the relative safety of the tent they would be buried individually, with little in the way of clothes and tools. This means they would have to dig themselves out and somehow find and dig their friends out and then find and dig the tent out. Being buried in the tent gives them the best chance of survival and they had to know that, they would be all together with their clothes, tools, shelter and can work together to free themselves.

Quote
All nine made it down to the cedar tree without injury. Two died at the cedar tree. Seven went to a ravine and dug a den. The den triggered a collapse of a large amount of snow. All seven hikers ran but six were caught up in the snow collapse and suffered injuries. Four died, but Slobodin and (Zina) Kolmogorova escaped with just injuries. Dyatlov was least injured.
The injuries to some of the hikers indicated a fistfight and one of those with injuries similar to a fistfight was Yuri K who would have been dead under the tree at this point. The injuries to Zina, Slobodin and Igor indicate a fistfight not an avalanche, while the injuries to the 4 in the ravine are too localized to be the result of an avalanche.
 

August 16, 2020, 04:28:32 AM
Reply #31

eurocentric

Guest
Okay okay I’m new here and have been blowing this forum up all day. I had a hard time with membership approval but finally got approved. It took a while so I’m having an outpouring of questions and comments on the forum and I am sure to calm down soon. Lol
But I’d like to start the topic of why the group split.
Doroshenko and Krivonischenko found right next to each other. With Dyatlov, Slobodin, and Zina close by.

Up at the ravine, Dubinina, Zolotaryov, Kolevatov, and Thebeaux.

What are some possible explanations you can come up with?
It would appear the group close to the cedar had started a fire.
Kolevatov and Slobodin both were found with matches on them. Both groups had the potential to start a fire.
Why is one group digging a den and the other group by the fire?
I can’t come up with a good explanation for why the group split.

Okay. I’m gonna be quiet for a little bit now! I think.

First of all I''ve no idea why anyone should struggle for membership approval at this site, the forum is tumbleweed enough without introducing any difficulty.

The group would be separated only by the individual timing of their deaths, and how that saw them fall in different places, because the group kept moving, switching plans from fires to dens, in an overnight fight to survive the cold. If an army all dies across a moving front their bodies lie in different places, and events across this snowy battlefield were no different.

The individual strength of the hikers; their health, their different levels of clothing, their injuries, all determined how long each one lasted. The 3 who survived the longest were the fittest. Igor Dyatlov, even minus shoes, most obviously the top athlete, I admire him enormously for all he managed with every single thing set against him, Rustem not far behind, better clothed but saddled with a head injury, and Zina more subcutaneous body fat by dint of being female, no serious injury, and better clothed.

If you cruelly placed 9 young people in a commercial freezer unit, some better dressed than others, some with more fat, and each with different physiological strengths, especially surrounding heart and circulation, then they would all die at different times, even if all were dead 'x' amount of time later. Their bodies would all be found together only because they were trapped inside, but in a freezer unit the size of a mountain pass they won't because if this spot is the place people die then you move on and find somewhere else where you feel you have a marginally better chance of survival.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2020, 04:33:04 AM by eurocentric »
 

August 16, 2020, 05:59:49 AM
Reply #32
Offline

Squatch


Okay okay I’m new here and have been blowing this forum up all day. I had a hard time with membership approval but finally got approved. It took a while so I’m having an outpouring of questions and comments on the forum and I am sure to calm down soon. Lol
But I’d like to start the topic of why the group split.
Doroshenko and Krivonischenko found right next to each other. With Dyatlov, Slobodin, and Zina close by.

Up at the ravine, Dubinina, Zolotaryov, Kolevatov, and Thebeaux.

What are some possible explanations you can come up with?
It would appear the group close to the cedar had started a fire.
Kolevatov and Slobodin both were found with matches on them. Both groups had the potential to start a fire.
Why is one group digging a den and the other group by the fire?
I can’t come up with a good explanation for why the group split.

Okay. I’m gonna be quiet for a little bit now! I think.

First of all I''ve no idea why anyone should struggle for membership approval at this site, the forum is tumbleweed enough without introducing any difficulty.

The group would be separated only by the individual timing of their deaths, and how that saw them fall in different places, because the group kept moving, switching plans from fires to dens, in an overnight fight to survive the cold. If an army all dies across a moving front their bodies lie in different places, and events across this snowy battlefield were no different.

The individual strength of the hikers; their health, their different levels of clothing, their injuries, all determined how long each one lasted. The 3 who survived the longest were the fittest. Igor Dyatlov, even minus shoes, most obviously the top athlete, I admire him enormously for all he managed with every single thing set against him, Rustem not far behind, better clothed but saddled with a head injury, and Zina more subcutaneous body fat by dint of being female, no serious injury, and better clothed.

If you cruelly placed 9 young people in a commercial freezer unit, some better dressed than others, some with more fat, and each with different physiological strengths, especially surrounding heart and circulation, then they would all die at different times, even if all were dead 'x' amount of time later. Their bodies would all be found together only because they were trapped inside, but in a freezer unit the size of a mountain pass they won't because if this spot is the place people die then you move on and find somewhere else where you feel you have a marginally better chance of survival.

Yes.

And when considering the damage to the seven who left the cedar tree, (in general) the further from the den/ravine area the hikers were found the fewer the injuries. This makes me think now that all seven went to the ravine and three survived the catastrophe there but later froze to death going back up the mountain slope.
 

August 16, 2020, 07:57:58 AM
Reply #33
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Nigel Evans



I don't think Zina or Igor got down the slope.
Igor was wearing Yuri K's vest that Yuri Yudin gave to him before he left the group. Following the rest of the group and their actions clothes that belong to one person but were worn by another was because the owner died and the others took his clothes and distributed them, so that would indicate that Igor was at the tree with Yuri K and Yuri D.
Where does it say that YuriY gave it to YuriK?
 

August 16, 2020, 07:07:37 PM
Reply #34
Offline

Georgi



Where does it say that YuriY gave it to YuriK?

Quote
Height 175 cm, the complexion of the deceased has been described as "bluish-red". He had unbuttoned fur sleeveless vest - outer side blue cotton, inner side dark grey fur (Yudin later recognized this as vest he gave Krivonishenko when they parted), a blue sweater, long sleeve red cotton shirt, in the breats pocket 4 pills Streptocide (anti-inflammatory agent used for wound infection) still in the blister, blue sleeveless cotton singlet, ski pants over his pants.
https://dyatlovpass.com/death?flp=1#Dyatlov
 

August 17, 2020, 12:33:37 AM
Reply #35
Offline

Nigel Evans



Where does it say that YuriY gave it to YuriK?

Quote
Height 175 cm, the complexion of the deceased has been described as "bluish-red". He had unbuttoned fur sleeveless vest - outer side blue cotton, inner side dark grey fur (Yudin later recognized this as vest he gave Krivonishenko when they parted), a blue sweater, long sleeve red cotton shirt, in the breats pocket 4 pills Streptocide (anti-inflammatory agent used for wound infection) still in the blister, blue sleeveless cotton singlet, ski pants over his pants.
https://dyatlovpass.com/death?flp=1#Dyatlov
Ah ok, it's not in the case files then. The problem with the clothing is that they could have been swapping/sharing items so there's nothing conclusive in who was wearing what (other than the clear timeline that the 2yuris were stripped). But agreed it's a piece of evidence against that narrative.
 

August 17, 2020, 02:36:51 AM
Reply #36
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sparrow


Yuri K. said later that he gave his vest to Yuri D. to wear.  And that vest seems to maybe eventually have made it to Simon.  That would make more sense.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2020, 03:04:21 AM by sparrow »
 

August 17, 2020, 04:55:20 PM
Reply #37
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I tbink it is difficult to know exactly how the hikers moved from the tent, in what order and with who.  If they hsd their senses, then the most likely scenario is that they left together from the tent.  Its possible that one or more of them may have been outside when things went bad and they may have fled first.

There are several facts that ellude to their movements or interactions:

The clothing was stripped from the Yuris and some of that clothing was found between the ravine and the cedar and on tge rav 4, indicating that at least one of the people (possibly more) that were at the ravine were also at the cedar.

An eye witness account places a partially burned ladies handkerchief at the cedar.  Its unlikely that one of the men would have a ladies handkerchief so either !yuda or Zina was likely also at the cedar

The eye witness accounts describe that the amount of work carried out at the cedar was likely more than two people could do.  The branches were cut with a knife as well as the trees around but there was no knife at the cedar with the two yuris when they were found.

The so called den had branches laid out, I cant say for sure but I suspect that these were cut branches which combined with handkerchief suggests that the rav 4 were likely at the cedar too.

Regards

Star man
 

August 17, 2020, 07:28:02 PM
Reply #38
Offline

Georgi



Ah ok, it's not in the case files then. The problem with the clothing is that they could have been swapping/sharing items so there's nothing conclusive in who was wearing what (other than the clear timeline that the 2yuris were stripped). But agreed it's a piece of evidence against that narrative.
That's what I thought at first, it could have been swapped earlier due to Igor's clothes being wet or something but based on the fact that the two men under the tree were obviously stripped it is more likely that Yuri K was wearing it.
 

August 17, 2020, 07:30:34 PM
Reply #39
Offline

Georgi


Yuri K. said later that he gave his vest to Yuri D. to wear.  And that vest seems to maybe eventually have made it to Simon.  That would make more sense.
But it was found on Igor who was 400m away from Zolotaryov and it doesn't matter if it was worn by Yuri K or Yuri D since they were both stripped and the first person to succumb might have been stripped by the one still alive and when he passed his clothes were divided amongst the rest.
 

August 17, 2020, 07:41:23 PM
Reply #40
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Georgi



The clothing was stripped from the Yuris and some of that clothing was found between the ravine and the cedar and on tge rav 4, indicating that at least one of the people (possibly more) that were at the ravine were also at the cedar.
Logical conclusion would be that they all ended up under the tree, from there they either split up for different tasks(firewood, shelter, reconnaissance etc...) before the two men succumbed to the elements or they gathered firewood and tried to stay warm realizing that it wont be enough when both men die under the tree. Igor being the designated leader of the hike decides to go back to the tent, Zina goes with him out of Loyalty, friendship or something deeper. At this point their both exhausted and freezing and Igor didn't make it very far, while Zina made double the distance Igor did. To me the conclusion would be that out of guilt or sorrow Igor pushed himself harder during the night and was too exhausted to make it far.

Quote
An eye witness account places a partially burned ladies handkerchief at the cedar.  Its unlikely that one of the men would have a ladies handkerchief so either !yuda or Zina was likely also at the cedar
Eight of the hikers most likely made it to the Cedar tree.

Quote
The eye witness accounts describe that the amount of work carried out at the cedar was likely more than two people could do.  The branches were cut with a knife as well as the trees around but there was no knife at the cedar with the two yuris when they were found.
The knife could have been picked up by the killers or it could have been picked up by one of the searchers upon finding the bodies and moving it back to the tent before anyone realized the need for an investigation. Either they left, they forgot, were too worried to tell anyone they moved the knife or nobody thought to ask.
 

August 18, 2020, 05:18:32 PM
Reply #41
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient

The clothing was stripped from the Yuris and some of that clothing was found between the ravine and the cedar and on tge rav 4, indicating that at least one of the people (possibly more) that were at the ravine were also at the cedar.
Logical conclusion would be that they all ended up under the tree, from there they either split up for different tasks(firewood, shelter, reconnaissance etc...) before the two men succumbed to the elements or they gathered firewood and tried to stay warm realizing that it wont be enough when both men die under the tree. Igor being the designated leader of the hike decides to go back to the tent, Zina goes with him out of Loyalty, friendship or something deeper. At this point their both exhausted and freezing and Igor didn't make it very far, while Zina made double the distance Igor did. To me the conclusion would be that out of guilt or sorrow Igor pushed himself harder during the night and was too exhausted to make it far.

Quote
An eye witness account places a partially burned ladies handkerchief at the cedar.  Its unlikely that one of the men would have a ladies handkerchief so either !yuda or Zina was likely also at the cedar
Eight of the hikers most likely made it to the Cedar tree.

Quote
The eye witness accounts describe that the amount of work carried out at the cedar was likely more than two people could do.  The branches were cut with a knife as well as the trees around but there was no knife at the cedar with the two yuris when they were found.
The knife could have been picked up by the killers or it could have been picked up by one of the searchers upon finding the bodies and moving it back to the tent before anyone realized the need for an investigation. Either they left, they forgot, were too worried to tell anyone they moved the knife or nobody thought to ask.

So here is a question then.  If they were all at the cedar with a nice fire going, why leave the cedar and the fire to go to the ravine? 

Regards

Star man
 

August 18, 2020, 09:51:32 PM
Reply #42
Offline

Georgi




So here is a question then.  If they were all at the cedar with a nice fire going, why leave the cedar and the fire to go to the ravine? 

Regards

Star man
When Yuri K and Yuri D die, the rest of the hikers cannot agree on what to do next, the fire proved inadequate and they need shelter if they are to have a chance so the 4 who died in the ravine split off and go to that while Igor decides to go to the tent hoping the attackers are gone or can be convinced to let the hikers live. Might not have been likely outcome but he just saw 3 of the 8 people who were his responsibility die so he would take whatever chance he had to while Zina either went with him out of a sense of loyalty, responsibility or love for him
 

August 19, 2020, 09:06:55 AM
Reply #43
Offline

Squatch




So here is a question then.  If they were all at the cedar with a nice fire going, why leave the cedar and the fire to go to the ravine? 

Regards

Star man
When Yuri K and Yuri D die, the rest of the hikers cannot agree on what to do next, the fire proved inadequate and they need shelter if they are to have a chance so the 4 who died in the ravine split off and go to that while Igor decides to go to the tent hoping the attackers are gone or can be convinced to let the hikers live. Might not have been likely outcome but he just saw 3 of the 8 people who were his responsibility die so he would take whatever chance he had to while Zina either went with him out of a sense of loyalty, responsibility or love for him

Until recently this is what I believed as well. I changed my mind when I tried to come up with the simplest explanation for all the hikers' injuries.

Igor, Rustem and Zina are found away from the ravine area, but two of them have injuries consistent with escaping the fate of the four at the ravine. Rustem has a skull fracture and two temporalis hemorrhages (front sides of his head). This could happen if some sort of snow collapse back at the ravine forced him to the ground and he struck his head, perhaps rolling for a little bit before coming to rest and then escaping. Zina has "a long bright red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso" which could have occurred if she was violently pushed to the ground by this snow collapse and struck a rock with her side. All three had other bruises and/or abrasions as well.

Blood must flow to the site of an injury before bruising can occur. This takes time. Notice that Igor, Rustem and Zina have such bruises, but the four at the ravine tend not to have them. This could imply that the four at the ravine died soon after a snow collapse, but Igor, Rustem and Zina survived this and developed bruises on the way back up to the tent.

One of the puzzling things about the physical evidence is "Why did they split up?" This is an assumption. I don't believe they did. The three who survived the longest changed strategy and tried to return to the tent.

P.S. The layout of the den would appear to indicate that only four were there, but I think that is because they had a limited amount of material and made a square out of the branches and clothing available.
 

August 23, 2020, 12:54:59 PM
Reply #44
Offline

Nigel Evans



Where does it say that YuriY gave it to YuriK?

Quote
Height 175 cm, the complexion of the deceased has been described as "bluish-red". He had unbuttoned fur sleeveless vest - outer side blue cotton, inner side dark grey fur (Yudin later recognized this as vest he gave Krivonishenko when they parted), a blue sweater, long sleeve red cotton shirt, in the breats pocket 4 pills Streptocide (anti-inflammatory agent used for wound infection) still in the blister, blue sleeveless cotton singlet, ski pants over his pants.
https://dyatlovpass.com/death?flp=1#Dyatlov
Ah ok, it's not in the case files then. The problem with the clothing is that they could have been swapping/sharing items so there's nothing conclusive in who was wearing what (other than the clear timeline that the 2yuris were stripped). But agreed it's a piece of evidence against that narrative.
I've found this - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-11-20?rbid=17743"Yuri Yudin said that the vest belonged to him, and on 28-Jan-1959 he gave it to S. Kolevatov."

 

September 03, 2020, 04:17:53 AM
Reply #45
Offline

Teddy

Administrator
Who did Yudin give his vest that was found on Dyatlov?

Kolevatov
From the "Protocol inspection of items found at the scene" (Case files sheet 13):
"One piece of clothing found on I. A. Dyatlov body described in the autopsy report was a fur vest trimmed with blue satin. Yuri Yudin said that the vest belonged to him, and on 28-Jan-1959 he gave it to S. Kolevatov."

Doroshenko
Yuri Yudin himself said the following in a letter dated May 14, 2008:
"As for the inconsistency in the inventory, he has a quilted jacket, then perhaps this is an incorrect entry by investigator Ivanov. He wrote the inventory as he needed in his own handwriting. He wrote that I gave my fur sleeveless jacket to S. Kolevatov, while I gave it at the 2nd Northern to Y. Doroshenko.
He attributed to me that I allegedly identified the intimate parts of Zina's clothing and what the first five bodies were found in, but naturally I could not do this since I was not present at the autopsy and undressing of the bodies... I was naive and signed the inventory without reading it, firmly believing in the actions of the investigator."

 
 

September 06, 2020, 03:58:23 PM
Reply #46
Offline

Saltyseadog


I have stated this before and I'll do it again. Think about how long it would take to walk 1.5km through the snow without adequate footwear. Then think about how long it would take hypothermia to set in being poorly dressed in this time frame in temperatures of, well it has been projected as minus 50C using wind chill. By the time the group even reached the cedar hypothermia would have set in yet, according to autopsy reports only 2 of the group show signs, one on toes and one with a couple of fingers frostbitten.
At this stage you would be incapable of doing anything. Your whole body would be shaking. In my opinion they werent on the mountain.
 

September 07, 2020, 02:37:54 AM
Reply #47
Offline

Nigel Evans


I have stated this before and I'll do it again. Think about how long it would take to walk 1.5km through the snow without adequate footwear. Then think about how long it would take hypothermia to set in being poorly dressed in this time frame in temperatures of, well it has been projected as minus 50C using wind chill. By the time the group even reached the cedar hypothermia would have set in yet, according to autopsy reports only 2 of the group show signs, one on toes and one with a couple of fingers frostbitten.
At this stage you would be incapable of doing anything. Your whole body would be shaking. In my opinion they werent on the mountain.
I'd agree that the frostbite profile of the group is at odds with the expected temperatures/wind chill. But my solution is that the air above Kholat was carrying a high level of electrical charge due to the snowstorm and this resulted in a continuous discharge into the mountain generating heat.

 "I've said it before and i'll say it again" the photos of the footprints are suggesting wet snow at circa 0C not -20C, the firn snow on the tent and sastrugi around the tent fit with this "warming" theory as do reports of an unusually high snow line. YuriK's third degree burns fit with a lightning strike. Electrical discharge creates nitric acid which is toxic.
 

September 07, 2020, 02:38:48 AM
Reply #48
Offline

Nigel Evans


Who did Yudin give his vest that was found on Dyatlov?

Kolevatov
From the "Protocol inspection of items found at the scene" (Case files sheet 13):
"One piece of clothing found on I. A. Dyatlov body described in the autopsy report was a fur vest trimmed with blue satin. Yuri Yudin said that the vest belonged to him, and on 28-Jan-1959 he gave it to S. Kolevatov."

Doroshenko
Yuri Yudin himself said the following in a letter dated May 14, 2008:
"As for the inconsistency in the inventory, he has a quilted jacket, then perhaps this is an incorrect entry by investigator Ivanov. He wrote the inventory as he needed in his own handwriting. He wrote that I gave my fur sleeveless jacket to S. Kolevatov, while I gave it at the 2nd Northern to Y. Doroshenko.
He attributed to me that I allegedly identified the intimate parts of Zina's clothing and what the first five bodies were found in, but naturally I could not do this since I was not present at the autopsy and undressing of the bodies... I was naive and signed the inventory without reading it, firmly believing in the actions of the investigator."
Excellent clarification. Thanks.
 

September 09, 2020, 12:25:21 AM
Reply #49
Offline

sparrow


Could someone explain to me the difference between a ski jacket and a storm jacket?  What is the difference between ski pants and storm pants?  Are they the same as the overalls?
 

September 09, 2020, 02:33:12 AM
Reply #50
Offline

Nigel Evans


Could someone explain to me the difference between a ski jacket and a storm jacket?  What is the difference between ski pants and storm pants?  Are they the same as the overalls?
Just guessing that "Storm" refers to the outer layer whose primary purpose was to keep everything else underneath dry. Insulated ski jacket/pants is probably a modern thing developed for recreational skiing to reduce layers. These guys would wear more layers.
 

September 09, 2020, 02:48:22 PM
Reply #51

Chris

Guest
Often times I have tried to find "easy" and "straight" explanations when things seem to be very complex, like with this stuff.
My picture is:
For reasons unclear, all 9 were convinced, that they had to abandon the tent immediately with no delay. The abandoning had to be all of them at the same time if possible, so no time to crawl out of the tent's intrance one after another after it had to be unbuttoned as a first task. So they cut the tent open and rushed out. In this second they had made their tent useless for the rest of the trip, but this was their least problem obviously under these circumstances (caused by whatever they had frightened). They did not plan to be away from the tent for longer a time than necessery but instead to return as soon as possible to recover neccessities like warm gear, skis, blankets. They knew they could find a temporary shelter below tree line. They knew there was a depot not far away with stuff left previously on the trip to be used on their way back. They were not too cold at this moment.

Thinking, the opportunity to return to the tent will come later in the night, they placed a lit flashlight on the tent's roof shining towards their planned marching direction and to make it easier to find the tent with the stuff in it one or two hours later. The cut open tent would make it easier to reach all the gear.

So they descended in a disciplined manor and entered the tree line. The lower the altitude, the lower the temperature dropped, a "cold air lake" had gathered where wind was less strong and temps declined quickly. When they eventually came to the cedar, they froze horrible and they knew, they had to decide, who shall take the risk and return to the tent to recover items and come back to the group at the cedar with the most needed stuff, blankets, padded jackets, shoes, boots, booties and so on to make a cold overnighter possible. They chose a "tent group" for this task.

To make a second end point for their orientation, helping the "tent group" to find the cedar on their way back after they would have had gathered the most important gear from the tent, the task for the "waiting party" was to light a fire and hold on to. This way the "tent group" could head towards the light dot coming from the flashlight on top of the tent, and on their way back they could head towards the shine from the fire at the cedar. That was the desperate plan.

The decision who shall go up to the tent fell for the fittest and mentally strongest three. After these three left the protective tree zone, they met with the harshest conditions even worse than they had expected and collapsed one after another.

The "waiting group" realized that something must have gone wrong, when the others did not return in the calculated time. They cleared the cedar from branches to climb up and see if the flashlight still was lit. But they were already weak and had frozen limbs. Maybe they were injured by falling off the tree several times before they eventually entered up and saw the light was still lit. This way they knew, the "tent group" must have been lost.

The next measure to be taken was to survive until daylight and try to get up to the tent themselves. But in order to keep the fire going they had not enough dry wood and strength left to gather enough after two more had frozen to death.

The remaining four decided to "dig in" into the snow to get warm by their body heat. One of them was a soldier who had served under World War Two and knew that in a snow cave as small as possible but as big as necessary one can live by the warmth of the body, especially when more persons can press their bodies at each other's. This way, being poorly clothed can even make a positive difference, even being naked can help. So they gathered clothing material from the dead comrades to add layers for the time the task of digging would take and went for realizing the plan.  But the snow around the cedar and nearby was too shallow.

They were to weak to dig very much. So they hurried somewhere else to find a deeper laying area, where snow had accumulated high enough for a small cave to be dug. They found it near the so called "ravine", not more than a creek valley. On a first attempt they put a layer of branches and twigs they had brought along from the cedar, when they left that place, and tried to just sit close to each other back to back. But the snow cave they had made was too wide and the intrance to big and drafty, so they switched to a deeper laying place a few meters away. This time they dug from the deepest point they could possibly enter down inside that "ravine" and from there slightly to the side, not realizing the ice of a frozen river under them. A layer of twigs possibly again served as insulating layer against the ice at the bottom of the new snow cave. But due to still running water below the thick ice, body warmth was constantly taken away from their cave (there was no puddle of "warm" water created like under normal circumstances in a snow cave, but thawing the ice sucked the heat from the bodies to be transported away by the runnig water below). Another factor was the cold air stream from the mountain which usually accumulates in depressions (it is often warmer on a mountain than in a valley). Too exhausted for additional undertakings, they finally froze to death, hopefully unconcious.

When the early spring temps melted the ice, some clothes of the dead bodies were contaminated by radioactive dust, which had previously been trapped in the snow over them and uptreams after a previous nuclear accident in the area upwards the main wind direction.

This was what I could imagine for myself to find something like an inner peace with the story.

Chris

« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 04:11:49 PM by Chris »
 

September 10, 2020, 12:03:41 AM
Reply #52
Offline

Nigel Evans


The flashlight on the tent was found switched off. The flashlight on the descent was found switched on. Nicolai was found with his jacket unzipped and his gloves in his pocket and none of the ravine four demonstrated much frostbite which suggests they were comfortable in the den before "the event" which is best explained as crushing (imo).

It's an interesting point as to whether there was a temperature inversion in the valley but i would expect that escaping from the wind chill on the slope would dominate.
 

September 10, 2020, 04:59:35 AM
Reply #53

Chris

Guest
The flashlight on the tent was found switched off. The flashlight on the descent was found switched on. Nicolai was found with his jacket unzipped and his gloves in his pocket and none of the ravine four demonstrated much frostbite which suggests they were comfortable in the den before "the event" which is best explained as crushing (imo).

It's an interesting point as to whether there was a temperature inversion in the valley but i would expect that escaping from the wind chill on the slope would dominate.

Good points. One lit flashlight left on the surface of the slope and one unlit left on the tent could mean, that they put one flashlight on top of the tent to make it easier to find it when they make it back to the tent quasi as a "backup", not knowing how long the batteries would last and how long it would take until they can return to the tent, while the other flashlight was put on the surface lit to serve as "lighthouse". If there was much of a wind, why did the flashlight on top of the tent stay in it's position? The canvas must have flattered alot. The moon seems to have been in the waning cresent phase of 42% illumination according to online programs. But when was moon up in that particular night? Was the group without any flashlights on their descend after they left the two flashlights on the slope? I can not remember having read, that any flashlight was found by the corpses. A white landscape with dark spots (trees) can give quite a lot of visability when the weather is clear and the moon at 42% at an angle of 0.55.

If we believe in a strong wind on the slope: escaping from the windchill into an even colder zone on their desent can not be ruled out completely if we consider that they could not know how the conditions would be down in the valley. I have experienced such conditions in the far north. It can be shocking how cold it can get when descending just a few dozen meters into a valley. In the north scandinavian winter it is often times a good advice to place your tent more up on a hill than down inside a valley because it can get much colder over night down there. This effect could have hit the group in the valley as well.

For the den: you can die from being exhausted and cold even without much frostbite. I also believe that they first had it comparably warm inside their second snow cave and thus fell asleep, exhausted as they were. When you cool down under these circumstances, totally exhausted, your probably wake up with stiff extremities and die, or you even never wake up anymore. There was no wind involved in the cave, so more frostbit was not to be expected once they were inside.

To me the central question is: Why did they leave the tent after all? Was it an ill-fated exercise which turned into a real survival nighmare? But why did they cut the tent then? If it was a murder, was the tent cut by the murderers to make sure, the group would not survive even if they can run away and hide for some time? Without a tent in arctic winter conditions one has to be an old school Sámi, Mansi or Inuit wearing layers of fur clothing with one wide fur cloak where those indigenous people can even sleep in when the have no tent.

For the murder theory: It is hard to believe that murders could observe the group without the group noticing them. In a white landscape, every moving thing is attracting the eye, even clothed with snow camoflage. The murders had to wait until night and find the tent in the dark. Or where they dropped by helicopters? In the last case, the murderers would have failed killing the group members in the tent, so they could escape over the slope. In this case, the murders would have thrown the tent and the stuff into the helicopter to wipe out traces. Then they would have to persue the group under very difficult conditions. Why were their traces and footsteps not found? You simply cannot make such an action unvisible in a snowy landscape.

As I wrote at another place in this forum, there is no theory that can satisfy me, so I am left like most of you.

I just always tend to try to find simple and "straight" explanations. But I can't find any for the abandoning of the tent.

Chris
 

September 10, 2020, 08:15:40 AM
Reply #54
Offline

Nigel Evans


The flashlight on the tent was found switched off. The flashlight on the descent was found switched on. Nicolai was found with his jacket unzipped and his gloves in his pocket and none of the ravine four demonstrated much frostbite which suggests they were comfortable in the den before "the event" which is best explained as crushing (imo).

It's an interesting point as to whether there was a temperature inversion in the valley but i would expect that escaping from the wind chill on the slope would dominate.

Good points. One lit flashlight left on the surface of the slope and one unlit left on the tent could mean, that they put one flashlight on top of the tent to make it easier to find it when they make it back to the tent quasi as a "backup", not knowing how long the batteries would last and how long it would take until they can return to the tent, while the other flashlight was put on the surface lit to serve as "lighthouse". I have two theories, (1) it was left as a beacon, (2) it was dropped in some violent event and broke the bulb (it's not clear from the casefiles if they thoroughly established it's condition). If there was much of a wind, why did the flashlight on top of the tent stay in it's position? Without photographs it's had to say, it could have wedged in some snow perhaps. The canvas must have flattered alot. The moon seems to have been in the waning cresent phase of 42% illumination according to online programs. But when was moon up in that particular night? From memory early morning say 4am. Was the group without any flashlights on their descend after they left the two flashlights on the slope? Nicolai had one in his jacket. Curiously that group seem to have got down safely... I can not remember having read, that any flashlight was found by the corpses. A white landscape with dark spots (trees) can give quite a lot of visability when the weather is clear and the moon at 42% at an angle of 0.55.
If we believe in a strong wind on the slope: escaping from the windchill into an even colder zone on their desent can not be ruled out completely Windchill can add -25C to the apparent temperature, that's some inversion. if we consider that they could not know how the conditions would be down in the valley. I have experienced such conditions in the far north. It can be shocking how cold it can get when descending just a few dozen meters into a valley. In the north scandinavian winter it is often times a good advice to place your tent more up on a hill than down inside a valley because it can get much colder over night down there. This effect could have hit the group in the valley as well. I there were strong winds this would negate an inversion.

For the den: you can die from being exhausted and cold even without much frostbite. I also believe that they first had it comparably warm inside their second snow cave and thus fell asleep, exhausted as they were. When you cool down under these circumstances, totally exhausted, your probably wake up with stiff extremities and die, or you even never wake up anymore. There was no wind involved in the cave, so more frostbit was not to be expected once they were inside. They died of serious trauma from superhuman force, not cold?

To me the central question is: Why did they leave the tent after all? Was it an ill-fated exercise which turned into a real survival nighmare? But why did they cut the tent then? If it was a murder, was the tent cut by the murderers to make sure, the group would not survive even if they can run away and hide for some time? Without a tent in arctic winter conditions one has to be an old school Sámi, Mansi or Inuit wearing layers of fur clothing with one wide fur cloak where those indigenous people can even sleep in when the have no tent.

For the murder theory: It is hard to believe that murders could observe the group without the group noticing them. In a white landscape, every moving thing is attracting the eye, even clothed with snow camoflage. The murders had to wait until night and find the tent in the dark. Or where they dropped by helicopters? In the last case, the murderers would have failed killing the group members in the tent, so they could escape over the slope. In this case, the murders would have thrown the tent and the stuff into the helicopter to wipe out traces. Then they would have to persue the group under very difficult conditions. Why were their traces and footsteps not found? You simply cannot make such an action unvisible in a snowy landscape. Ivanov didn't rate the murder theory, I agree.

As I wrote at another place in this forum, there is no theory that can satisfy me, so I am left like most of you.

I just always tend to try to find simple and "straight" explanations. But I can't find any for the abandoning of the tent. Infra sound / atmospheric electricity / military weapons are all plausible solutions to leaving the tent.

Chris
 

September 11, 2020, 08:30:58 PM
Reply #55
Offline

Investigator


Chris, the thing about this incident is that it's several incidents/decisions which have at least a few different explanations that are reasonable, and even then, it's possible that a less likely explanation is in fact the case.  So let me take things one at a time.  It makes no sense that the tent was located/positioned where it was, considering how the wind blows down that mountain like an avalanche of air.  We know from the diaries that there was anger, etc. about the tent (which was two sewn together) coming apart at the seams (Igor was demanding that it be sewn better or more completely, but it was a chore the others didn't want to do).  So, it's very possible he was "teaching them a lesson," which would also mean they'd definitely get the Level 3 certification.  Igor was apparently quite courageous, perhaps too much so, and we don't know how much they understood of the dangers involved (particularly hypothermia).

It's also possible that without heat (other than each other), no sleeping bags (very important in these situations), and a tent ripping apart, they came to conclude that it was too cold to survive (I've done a lot of research into mountain climbing and similar situations where things can get deadly quickly), or an ice sheet formed on the side of the tent and that's how the rip/cut started, or they tried to knock such ice off the tent and that's how it ripped.  A good question is why they didn't take the blankets with them, suggesting Igor told them they could survive the way they were.  There is no excuse for leaving the blankets.  The heavy boots and coats may have become frozen and no longer usable, but they were sleeping with the blankets wrapped around them!  I'd guess it was some sort of exercise or even a kind of punishment, and again one wonders if they understood how dangerous things could become within a short period of time.

The tent was likely partially knocked down intentionally (once they were all out) so that it wouldn't blow away, then one of the two flashlights placed on top of some snow that was placed on the tent (so that it wouldn't blow away or the items inside wouldn't blow away).  The plan may have been to go back right before dawn and they'd need to have light, or it may have been designed to be a kind of beacon (for a different plan), but that plan didn't work out because the fire didn't keep them warm enough to survive getting back to the tent.  There likely weren't major visibility problems because they did accomplish a lot and only took the one flashlight, but perhaps sustained some moderate to serious injuries because of the rocky protrusions on the sides of the mountain and of course the "Ravine 4" fell into a depression or crevace type feature that was on top of a creek (with Luda falling directly onto the rocks on the banks and at least one of the guys falling on top of her).

I'd guess the two guys (one being the WWII vet) who were better dressed originally (were they doing "guard duty?") started to dig out the "den"' while the others ripped off branches to lie on (you can't lie on snow/ice under those circumstances without freezing to death) and for the fire (which supposedly was quite robust and lasted 1 to 2 hours).  Yuri 1 might have fallen from the tree and sustained serious injuries, and possibly fell on Yuri 2, meaning they couldn't do as much work at that point, and under those circumstances you have to keep moving to stay alive (there were burn marks on their clothes, which suggests they thought the fire alone could keep them alive).  It seems they did not recognize what happens when you are not dressed properly and you do a lot of work under those conditions.   Your body temperature can drop significantly in a short period of time once you stop moving, and in this case injury may have led to one or both Yuris not being able to do much physically after the fall from the cedar tree.

The WWII apparently vet had his own idea, based upon what he experienced during the war, but we have no idea if that would have worked since they fell into the creek and got wet or got stuck in the snow, so they were doomed without help.  Who had some unused matches in their pockets is not relevant because once it was clear fire was not going to save them they had to figure something else out to survive.  I think the two better dressed guys came back to the fire area and said something like, "okay the den is ready, so let's take the clothes of the two Yuris and go there to survive the night," but they went slightly off course and fell.

To me the biggest oddity is why were three apparently trying to get back to the tent, since it was clearly not going to be a surviveable situation up there?  They didn't have clothing from the two Yuris, except perhaps the vest Igor was found wearing, so it's not likely they started back to the tent after the Ravine 4 started back to the den.  I think Zina may have become very upset at seeing one or both Yuris die, and decided to go back on her own.  Then Slobodin followed, perhaps imploring her to come back, but fell, hit his head, and was knocked unconscious.  Igor sees this and he tries to get her to come back, but hypothermia sets in.

It's also possible Zina and Slobodin were left with the two Yuris and decided to go back to the tent after seeing them die, and also not knowing what was going on witih the Ravine 4 (assuming those 4 were working on digging out the den and that Igor was with the 4).  This would explain why Igor was wearing the vest.  He may have been working with the Ravine 4 and came back to the fire area, saw the two Yuris as well as Zina and Slobodin heading back to the tent, so he grabs a vest and starts out after them to tell them that the den is the only way to survive.

I think if you look at all the evidence that seems solid, there are several reasonable posssibilities, and in fact something similar happened not long before:

QUOTE  ...A muddy curtain of bad weather appears on the horizon … We corral into the tent, huddled around the stove, where a faint light flickers a little, casting a pale glow on the gloomy, alert faces of people… from the north a snowstorm approached. And soon everything was whistling around, spinning in a mad whirlwind. Streaks of snowy dust flowed through the frozen slant; snow drifting ominously.

The tent is arched from the pressure of the wind. The stove has gone out. Firewood is over, the cold finds a gap, seeps inside. We are wrapped in warm clothes. It is impossible to fall asleep, but the conversation is not getting better… what will happen if the wind breaks our tent and we find ourselves face to face with a snowstorm on bare rocks, far from the forest?…

A snowdrift piled up heavily on the tent on the windward side, the wall bent dangerously, and soon the rope it the middle broke, unable to withstand the weight… The hanging snowdrift had already taken a third of the site away from us and continued to press from above, bending the crossbar. It was at that moment that a new ferocious squall hit, and the canvas wall broke in half. A mountain of snow fell on us.

Get dressed and go out! – Lebedev orders. A scuffle begins in the twilight, no one can find their belongings, you hear curses. The wind flaps the torn sides of the tent, throwing fistfuls of snow in our faces.
I say, get out! – Lebedev’s voice is heard through the howl of the storm.
Presnikov, you are holding back everybody detain all.
I lost my hat, – he screams back.
Cover your head with a bag and get out! – orders Lebedev, wrapping a rope around himself and passing the end to his comrades.
The snowstorm brings down on us all its might. The chill is blinding the eyes, burns the nostrils. Lebedev is ahead, behind him, holding the rope, the others are walking. Moving almost blindly, it is difficult to get to the slope. It becomes easier to walk, because under your feet the descent and snowstorm are somewhat quieter here. We go at random among the small rocks, along hollows with steep slopes. Obviously, we descend down to the ravine, where there must be a forest, which means there will be a fire. We don’t dream about anything else… Only an hour later, the steepness of the descent broke, the placers and the rocks were left behind. Smooth drifted snow under our feet, slippery as ice … We go down the ravine even lower and notice freshly cut stumps, and then tents are shown. Well done Kirill Rodionovich – how confidently he led us to the camp! And now we are at a great fun bonfire that has given us strength and good spirits. The ropes are untied, there is laughter…  UNQUOTE.

https://dyatlovpass.com/on-the-road-of-trial
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 02:08:28 PM by Investigator »