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Author Topic: Sequence of events  (Read 18689 times)

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October 25, 2018, 01:28:10 PM
Reply #30
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sarapuk

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Interesting. And those 2 people had some of the worst injuries of the group.  And one of them had a camera on a cord around their neck, and were found with a pen in one hand and a notepad in the other hand.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 01:37:09 PM by sarapuk »
DB
 

October 26, 2018, 01:01:41 PM
Reply #31
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WAB


Interesting. And those 2 people had some of the worst injuries of the group. 

It is usual coincidence of circumstances. In principle maintenance: when one trouble at once there are, many other things has come.

And one of them had a camera on a cord around their neck,

It did not remove the chamber after they have come to tent. The camera was rather compact also did not disturb to it in its activity. Here there is not enough surprising.

and were found with a pen in one hand and a notepad in the other hand.

It is a myth which proves to be true nothing. In photos which are made at Simeon Zolotaryov's extraction there are no signs of it. Water stream in stream does not allow even to consider presumably that the notebook there could be kept in hands. There are no notes about it in 1959. Vladimir Akinadzi's memoirs have appeared almost  60 years after events. From the point view of psychology it is called aberrations in memory.
 

October 26, 2018, 04:29:59 PM
Reply #32
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sarapuk

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WAB, and I quote you ; ''It is a myth which proves to be true nothing. In photos which are made at Simeon Zolotaryov's extraction there are no signs of it. Water stream in stream does not allow even to consider presumably that the notebook there could be kept in hands. There are no notes about it in 1959. Vladimir Akinadzi's memoirs have appeared almost  60 years after events. From the point view of psychology it is called aberrations in memory.''

[[  This is what Vladimir Akinadzi had to say about the NOTEBOOK in an interview with a journalist from Komsomolskaya Pravda a few years ago.
THE NOTEBOOK
When you dug them out, supposedly Semen Zolotaryov had a notebook in one hand, and in another pencil?
- Yes, the memory of the episode with a notebook made a big impression on me. Because Colonel Ortyukov, who directed the searches, somehow behaved inadequately. He jumped like a madman when he saw that there was a notebook in the hands of one of the bodies. We couldn’t say who that was. We didn’t know the guys, and they were practically unrecognizable. So, Ortyukov grabbed the notebook and began to turn the pages, and I stood beside him. He flipped back and forth, but it is empty. And Ortyukov cursed in his heart, I do not remember words exactly, but he said, approximately, something like: "Ah, slug, couldn’t write anything ...".
The book was submerged in the water. Maybe it blurred the records?
- May be.
And where is this notebook now?
- I don’t know. But there is a photo of Ortyukov holding this notebook in his right hand.  ]]


So it looks to me like Vladimir positively remembers such a vivid event even after so long a time.
DB
 

November 18, 2018, 05:36:29 PM
Reply #33
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Marchesk


1. Perhaps an ice sheet of decent size had slammed into the side of the tent, the sleeping bodies of those closest to the impact absorb the brunt of the force and the tent collapses.

2. After being hit with such a sheet the awakened and startled hikers rush to get their injured friends out and away from the danger zone. Carrying/ helping them down the hill to the safety of the woods.

3. The group eventually arrives at the woods and immediately sets to work on a fire. They begin cutting branches to feed their tiny fire but it's no use, it is not enough to keep them warm. Yuri Doroshenko and Yuri Krivonischenko sadly both succumb to the cold. Their friends frantically try to resuscitate them, pushing on their chests vigorously but to no avail.

I'm responding a few weeks late. Even though the snow slide/ice sheet hitting the tent makes a lot of sense, it still has problems.

There's no evidence from footprints that anyone was helped, dragged or carried, which they would need to be after such injuries. Also, there's just no reason to return to the tent at night if they already know it's buried by an ice sheet. Not after you've gone all the way down the slop the trees and started a fire and snow den. If you're going to try and dig warmer clothing out of the tent, then the time to do it is soon after leaving the tent. It would have taken the nine hikers some time to descend under those conditions, so they would have had time to reconsider before getting too far away.

In addition, Teddy mentioned on the Midnight in the Desert radio show that if the hikers were fleeing a snow slide in panic, the footsteps wouldn't have been orderly and going downhill.

Also, the flashlight left on top of the tent is odd if it were a snow slide, given that it was found with little snow on it. Additionally, if they decided to not dig their stuff out of the tent at night, then there's no reason to leave the two flashlights behind for lighting the way back. They would come back during the day when it was light out and warmer. The flashlights would be a lot more useful for them in the woods.

This case is crazy, because every time you think you hear a convincing theory, it's not long before problems emerge with it.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 05:57:38 PM by Marchesk »
 

November 19, 2018, 06:06:53 PM
Reply #34
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sarapuk

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The snow hitting the TENT has a lot of problems. It couldnt have happened. All accounts of any meaning prove that of all the theories the avalanche theory is the least likely.  The avalanche would have to have been of very great pressure to cause injuries and make the group flee the TENT. Also the TENT would have been dislodged with the interior items scattered about. And the FOOTPRINTS contradict that scenario. How can there be such footprints after a severe avalanche that leaves the TENT relatively intact including the interior.
DB
 

December 10, 2018, 01:55:00 PM
Reply #35
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Star man

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It seams to me that after leaving the tent, they all descended the slope together, based on the foot prints that led off for about 500m.  The immediate minutes, hour after leaving the tent is when they would have been less affected by the cold and fatigue.  I think they all made it to the cedar tree, and helped to build the fire.  This would have taken a little time and it's possible that even before the fire was lit, that the two Yuris were in a bad state.  After the two yurts had succumb to the cold, the others removed some of their clothing and shared it out.  Didn't Igor have some of Yuris clothing on?  A sweater I think?

It's not clear whether all remaining 7 went to the ravine, or whether they separated at this point.

It is possible that 3 of the 4 that went toward the ravine fell together and untainted the injuries.  I could understand this happening, especially if one of the group was starting to struggle and 2 others were supporting them and helping them along.  It was dark, it was cold, they may not have Ben able to feel their feet or the ground underneath h their feet.  Under these circumstance, 3 of them may have stumbled together into the ravine.  The one that didn't fall then did all in hismpowermto try and help the others.  Lyuda probably died fast due to her heart injury and internal bleeding.  It's possible that her Faux jacket and hat were then taken and placed on Zoltorev.  The last one died trying to keep Zoloterev warm.

The Igor group may have been trying to get back to the tent, but this was a hopeless exercise as they were already exhausted and too cold.  They had no chance.
 

December 11, 2018, 04:35:48 AM
Reply #36
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Monika


It seams to me that after leaving the tent, they all descended the slope together, based on the foot prints that led off for about 500m.  The immediate minutes, hour after leaving the tent is when they would have been less affected by the cold and fatigue.  I think they all made it to the cedar tree, and helped to build the fire.  This would have taken a little time and it's possible that even before the fire was lit, that the two Yuris were in a bad state.  After the two yurts had succumb to the cold, the others removed some of their clothing and shared it out.  Didn't Igor have some of Yuris clothing on?  A sweater I think?

It's not clear whether all remaining 7 went to the ravine, or whether they separated at this point.

It is possible that 3 of the 4 that went toward the ravine fell together and untainted the injuries.  I could understand this happening, especially if one of the group was starting to struggle and 2 others were supporting them and helping them along.  It was dark, it was cold, they may not have Ben able to feel their feet or the ground underneath h their feet.  Under these circumstance, 3 of them may have stumbled together into the ravine.  The one that didn't fall then did all in hismpowermto try and help the others.  Lyuda probably died fast due to her heart injury and internal bleeding.  It's possible that her Faux jacket and hat were then taken and placed on Zoltorev.  The last one died trying to keep Zoloterev warm.

The Igor group may have been trying to get back to the tent, but this was a hopeless exercise as they were already exhausted and too cold.  They had no chance.

I agree with the sequence of event as you wrote. But the question is, after the death of the two under the cedar, they split up so that they agreed that one group would build a den/shelter and the other would go to the clothes in tent? Or the two groups separated from each other and the group went to the tent only for clothing for themselves, and the other group built a day for themselves? Somewhere I read that the den was so big (3m2) that there were only for four people to sit there. Or after the death of the two under the cedar, tro went to the tent firstly and when did not return, the second group decided to build the den? Why all gropu did not go to the tent and they split up?
And the next question is, why  the four were found lying a few meters from the den and not inside as the den was already built and prepared? Apparently, three of them were injured when they stood outside the den, and the last one (Thibo) placed them next to each other and lay down to them not to die alone ( I am so sorry for him)  .
The next question is, why the trio returning to the tent did not wear the clothes from two under the cedar? They just needed it the most because they had to wade snow. The only explanation is that the two under the cedars died only after the trio decided to go to the tent and the remaining four had taken their clothes to themselves or to preparing the den.
Dyatlov was wearing the vest of Doroshenko,
Dubinia has some clothes of Doroshenko,
 Zolotarev has Dubinia hat and coat – it is clear, she before him
A lot of clothes from two under tree were in the den
And why did Thibo take Zolotarev's watch when he had his own? And why did not he take his camera? So many questions and we do not know anything. It's so frustrating.
 

December 13, 2018, 12:34:40 PM
Reply #37
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It seams to me that after leaving the tent, they all descended the slope together, based on the foot prints that led off for about 500m.  The immediate minutes, hour after leaving the tent is when they would have been less affected by the cold and fatigue.  I think they all made it to the cedar tree, and helped to build the fire.  This would have taken a little time and it's possible that even before the fire was lit, that the two Yuris were in a bad state.  After the two yurts had succumb to the cold, the others removed some of their clothing and shared it out.  Didn't Igor have some of Yuris clothing on?  A sweater I think?

It's not clear whether all remaining 7 went to the ravine, or whether they separated at this point.

It is possible that 3 of the 4 that went toward the ravine fell together and untainted the injuries.  I could understand this happening, especially if one of the group was starting to struggle and 2 others were supporting them and helping them along.  It was dark, it was cold, they may not have Ben able to feel their feet or the ground underneath h their feet.  Under these circumstance, 3 of them may have stumbled together into the ravine.  The one that didn't fall then did all in hismpowermto try and help the others.  Lyuda probably died fast due to her heart injury and internal bleeding.  It's possible that her Faux jacket and hat were then taken and placed on Zoltorev.  The last one died trying to keep Zoloterev warm.

The Igor group may have been trying to get back to the tent, but this was a hopeless exercise as they were already exhausted and too cold.  They had no chance.

I agree with the sequence of event as you wrote. But the question is, after the death of the two under the cedar, they split up so that they agreed that one group would build a den/shelter and the other would go to the clothes in tent? Or the two groups separated from each other and the group went to the tent only for clothing for themselves, and the other group built a day for themselves? Somewhere I read that the den was so big (3m2) that there were only for four people to sit there. Or after the death of the two under the cedar, tro went to the tent firstly and when did not return, the second group decided to build the den? Why all gropu did not go to the tent and they split up?
And the next question is, why  the four were found lying a few meters from the den and not inside as the den was already built and prepared? Apparently, three of them were injured when they stood outside the den, and the last one (Thibo) placed them next to each other and lay down to them not to die alone ( I am so sorry for him)  .
The next question is, why the trio returning to the tent did not wear the clothes from two under the cedar? They just needed it the most because they had to wade snow. The only explanation is that the two under the cedars died only after the trio decided to go to the tent and the remaining four had taken their clothes to themselves or to preparing the den.
Dyatlov was wearing the vest of Doroshenko,
Dubinia has some clothes of Doroshenko,
 Zolotarev has Dubinia hat and coat – it is clear, she before him
A lot of clothes from two under tree were in the den
And why did Thibo take Zolotarev's watch when he had his own? And why did not he take his camera? So many questions and we do not know anything. It's so frustrating.

Yes there are a number of possibilities .  The trio may have event turned around to go back to the tent before the others got to the cedar.  They may haver thought that whatever the threat was at the tent, that the cold was even a bigger threat.  I still think it is more likely that they were all at th fear tree though.

I imagine (but it could be wrong) that they split at the cedar tree.  I think the tri went back to the tent whilentheothers waited by the fire.  When the tri never returned, they decided they needed a more sheltered area and moved into the woods.  I don't think they would have moved into the woods unless they thought their friends were nt coming back.

I agree tht it's sad how they died in the ravine.  It's haunting and I think this is one of the reasons that people want to find what happened to these poor people.  It feels until the truth is known then there is no justice for them.

So options for sequence of events:

They split up before they got to cedar tree
They split up at the cedar tree
They split up at the ravine den

Is it possible that 7 of them got to the ravine and after four of them had died the remaining trio then tried to get back to the tent?

 

December 13, 2018, 10:43:46 PM
Reply #38
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Just thinking after my last post that if they were at the ravine after the four people had died then they would have taken the clothes themselves, so it is very unlikely that The three found on the slope ever went to the ravine.

This would mean the most likely sequence of events would be that they all got to the cedar tree and made the fire.  Before the two Yuris died, the three set off back to the tent, but never made it.  After a while the remaining four went deeper into the woods to the ravine.  Maybe Lynda was struggling and was helped by two others, and they stumbled in the dark and fell sustaining their injuries.  Thibo then built the den and tried to drag his remaining friends into the den, but he too was too weak and couldn't get them in, so he just laid down next to them to die.
 

December 13, 2018, 10:49:21 PM
Reply #39
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Monika


As the most likely version seems to me that after the death of the two under the tree, they all knew that they did not have the chance to survive without clothing. And so the trio went into the tent for clothes. The other four were probably waiting for their return (but why did not everyone went to the tent ???) and when the trio did not come back, they built a den with four places for sitting. But I ask again why did not they go together to the tent for their clothes but four of them waited at the fire.

And why did Thibo take Zolotarev's watch when he had his own???
 

December 14, 2018, 04:58:31 AM
Reply #40
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Star man

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As the most likely version seems to me that after the death of the two under the tree, they all knew that they did not have the chance to survive without clothing. And so the trio went into the tent for clothes. The other four were probably waiting for their return (but why did not everyone went to the tent ???) and when the trio did not come back, they built a den with four places for sitting. But I ask again why did not they go together to the tent for their clothes but four of them waited at the fire.

And why did Thibo take Zolotarev's watch when he had his own???

Good questions. It’s difficult to know what state of mind they were in at the cedar tree. I can speculate and say that the three decided to go back to the tent because they needed the clothes the most. The remaining people at the cedar tree decided to wait and keep the fire going and also did not want to go back to whatever threat there may be at the tent.

It’s puzzling that Thibo took zoletarobv’s watch. Maybe before SZ died he gave him the watch?
 

December 14, 2018, 07:54:37 AM
Reply #41
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Nigel Evans


The person on watch wore two watches in case one stopped.
 

December 14, 2018, 08:58:38 AM
Reply #42
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Star man

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The person on watch wore two watches in case one stopped.

That would explain it. Thanks Nigel
 

December 14, 2018, 06:29:11 PM
Reply #43
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sarapuk

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The person on watch wore two watches in case one stopped.

You are making statements like this but there is absolutely no way of  knowing why he wore 2 watches  !  ?  What EVIDENCE is there that he wore the watches in case one stopped  !  ? 
DB
 

December 15, 2018, 03:04:35 AM
Reply #44
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WAB


Dear Monika and Star man!
Unfortunately I have not enough time for all answers and comments in this forum, therefore I will do the remarks on a text course the Star man .That that concerns you there will be too. It will be the answer to your questions and conclusions, and the rest - not its questions and conclusions. I think that understand will be easy.


It seams to me that after leaving the tent, they all descended the slope together, based on the foot prints that led off for about 500m.  The immediate minutes, hour after leaving the tent is when they would have been less affected by the cold and fatigue.  I think they all made it to the cedar tree, and helped to build the fire.  This would have taken a little time and it's possible that even before the fire was lit, that the two Yuris were in a bad state.  After the two yurts had succumb to the cold, the others removed some of their clothing and shared it out.  Didn't Igor have some of Yuris clothing on?  A sweater I think?

In the most part of this description it is possible to agree, but there are specifications which should be essential.
1.There are no signs that all of them have reached a cedar. If all of them there have reached, they should not leave back. For this purpose it is enough to ask a question: what for? About "returning to tent" I will tell after. I think that anybody, except 2 Jura and one more person (I think that is Alexander Kolevatov) at a cedar were not.
***************************************************************
Substantiation of it is the so-called principle of "logic of events». It consists from this that there should be a full logicality in movement and actions of any person, and the deviation from it demands an additional substantiation of these actions. Each stage should be proved the weighty reason and suppose full possibility of such actions. If at least one of these conditions is not carried out, it is not meaningful to consider such action possible.
……………………………………………….
Let's all actions estimate by this principle, only then we will receive a real picture of an event.
***********************************************************************

2.As we has as the fact presence at a cedar of 2 bodies and it is necessary to estimate amount of works for these two. By my estimations on a place (it is direct at a cedar in the winter) it was difficult enough and hard work in the conditions of a cold, weariness and a stressful condition. The quantity of time necessary what of it to make I I estimate at 1 o'clock or 1,5 if to it 2 Yura were engaged. It is quite possible, but demands expenses of forces and presence of small damages which have been found out in them. Naturally, they have come to a cedar in sufficient clothes which from them was then removed by the one who came later. I limit all interval of time so: from the moment when they have decided that it is necessary to start to burn down a fire on this place and before they already have kindled it completely.
3.When they have kindled a fire, they were in rather normal state, but very strongly were tired and have frozen. That with them was then and why they have died the first is is a separate theme for discussion.
4.About possibility of moving of clothes from them to another, you think correctly.

It's not clear whether all remaining 7 went to the ravine, or whether they separated at this point.

If to use a principle *********** it is possible to tell almost precisely that all groups which have been found dead to a place of a fire and have not reached. Except one person who took off clothes. All of them operated separately, each group independently in quantity: 4 + 2 Yura + 1 +1 + 1. On another it is impossible logicians of events because it is impossible to answer a question “what for?” If to take only real answers.

It is possible that 3 of the 4 that went toward the ravine fell together and untainted the injuries.  I could understand this happening, especially if one of the group was starting to struggle and 2 others were supporting them and helping them along.  It was dark, it was cold, they may not have Ben able to feel their feet or the ground underneath h their feet.  Under these circumstance, 3 of them may have stumbled together into the ravine.  The one that didn't fall then did all in hismpowermto try and help the others.  Lyuda probably died fast due to her heart injury and internal bleeding.  It's possible that her Faux jacket and hat were then taken and placed on Zoltorev. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The last one died trying to keep Zoloterev warm.

No. It is absolutely impossible (Kolevatov is dressed much worse, than Zolotaryov). But it reminds a pose when Kolevatov transferred Zolotaryov on back. From a place where the wound to den has been received, but it did not have not enough its forces to inform the remained 6 metres (18 ft).

The Igor group may have been trying to get back to the tent, but this was a hopeless exercise as they were already exhausted and too cold.  They had no chance.

Here all of you have correctly written, only they could not come back in tent.
1. “What for?”
2. It was impossible technically.
3. They did not know where are, therefore and did not know where there is a tent.
4. To do it everyone alone, and furthermore without additional clothes not probably.
5. They could not throw each other if went together.
6. At them in pockets such set of things which is very necessary at a cedar, but is not necessary to them at returning in tent.
 

December 15, 2018, 03:25:57 AM
Reply #45
Offline

WAB


................................................
The Igor group may have been trying to get back to the tent, but this was a hopeless exercise as they were already exhausted and too cold.  They had no chance.

I agree with the sequence of event as you wrote. But the question is, after the death of the two under the cedar, they split up so that they agreed that one group would build a den/shelter and the other would go to the clothes in tent?

Before to leave, it was necessary to come there. But such signs are not present. Therefore it is possible to pass this opinion.
To build a den there is no sense because it is necessary to leave in a cold, and the available clothes will not allow to live in such den. Especially if to consider that it in general it was impossible to construct in that place. On walls of a ravine of snow was a little and it was so friable that was showered right after how you start to dig. If it is necessary, I can result some photo of that ravine in яваре, February and March. There the snow condition is well visible. Besides, it began necessary to consider that for last 60 years of snow much more because of climate warming.


Or the two groups separated from each other and the group went to the tent only for clothing for themselves, and the other group built a day for themselves? Somewhere I read that the den was so big (3m2) that there were only for four people to sit there. Or after the death of the two under the cedar, tro went to the tent firstly and when did not return, the second group decided to build the den? Why all gropu did not go to the tent and they split up?

It anywhere in documents 1959 is not present. It could be only opinion on the Internet after 50 + years. Den was: the citation from criminal case :"... the den consists of 14 pieces of fir and 1 birch tree trunk on snow." (c) Their size (by words Anatoly Mohov) was 1,5 Х 1 m (that is no more than 1,5 sq. m. of the very seldom located trees in the thickness about 5 … 6 cm in diameter.



It is a picture dug out den.

And the next question is, why  the four were found lying a few meters from the den and not inside as the den was already built and prepared?

Alexander Kolevatov could not transport bodies to den. It did not have not enough forces as it much and long did a hard work. Besides it constantly was on cold in weak clothes.

Apparently, three of them were injured when they stood outside the den, and the last one (Thibo) placed them next to each other and lay down to them not to die alone ( I am so sorry for him) 

1.Tibo could not do anything, that as at it was very much a serious trauma of a head and after it could not even be in understanding any more. It could receive the trauma only halfway from tent to a cedar because anywhere there are no conditions for this purpose further. Further it transferred.
2.Thorax Traumas (Lyudmila and Zolotprev) could receive in 40 … 50 m from a place where them have found. There is a sufficient slope in height in 8 metres (25 ft) and a steepness ~ in 35 degrees.



The next question is, why the trio returning to the tent did not wear the clothes from two under the cedar?

Because they were not at cedar, means they did not go to tent, and went to cedar.

They just needed it the most because they had to wade snow. The only explanation is that the two under the cedars died only after the trio decided to go to the tent and the remaining four had taken their clothes to themselves or to preparing the den.

The unique explanation consists that they there were not, therefore and did not take clothes.

Dyatlov was wearing the vest of Doroshenko,

It was Yudin's vest which it has left in group when left from route. Further it could be transferred freely between participants of group. So it was possible at that time.

Dubinia has some clothes of Doroshenko,

This is very approximate opinion. Though it is impossible to exclude it.

Zolotarev has Dubinia hat and coat – it is clear, she before him

Here this opinion very doubtful. I can translate it to that on such searches always a lot of any mess. Even if it is truth, it about what especial cannot tell.

A lot of clothes from two under tree were in the den

Yes. I so think that Alexander Kolevatov went from a place den to a fire, has taken off clothes from those two and has brought it to den. By the way of movement it has lost a part of these clothes in 15 … 20 m (50…60 ft) from cedar.



And why did Thibo take Zolotarev's watch when he had his own?

Thibo did not take hours Zolotaryov. The second hours at it from Krivonishchenko. It is all it has been made still before all events have begun. As Zolotaryov and Thibo have the best than at all clothes, means they there were men on duty on this parking. The second hours were transferred to the man on duty when it was necessary to make precisely lifting of all group in time, but there were fears that one hours can casually stop. It is just that case.

And why did not he take his camera?

Zolotaryov it did not take with itself, and simply has not removed it after have come on parking. Probably that it has left on himself only a case, and the camera it has given to tent. Thibo did not have his one's own camera. Anyway on this travel.


So many questions and we do not know anything. It's so frustrating.

On all questions there are quite simple and real answers, it is necessary to know much: features of such travel real life of that period of history about which we speak, features of concrete district up to the fine details, typical errors which make by such searches and at consequence carrying out. And still it is very necessary to lean against authentic certificates, especially if about them speak through 50 … 60 years after them. Here happens it is very useful перекрестно to compare these memoirs and to compare them to district, physical laws and historic facts in time. There are still photos of those events which give more objective picture.
If in stories it turns out so that memoirs do not correspond to one from this that I have resulted, they cannot be considered authentic.
 

December 15, 2018, 03:37:19 AM
Reply #46
Offline

WAB



Yes there are a number of possibilities .  The trio may have event turned around to go back to the tent before the others got to the cedar.  They may haver thought that whatever the threat was at the tent, that the cold was even a bigger threat.

Earlier I already have described that the sense to go to tent even from a cedar because it was impossible for some reasons was not it. Especially it is`not matters on half of way.

I still think it is more likely that they were all at th fear tree though.

Why?

I imagine (but it could be wrong) that they split at the cedar tree.  I think the tri went back to the tent whilentheothers waited by the fire.  When the tri never returned, they decided they needed a more sheltered area and moved into the woods.  I don't think they would have moved into the woods unless they thought their friends were nt coming back.

You do not do the conclusions agree to that that I have written in **************. If it so will turn out very much not logically and is absent necessity and possibility of such actions.

I agree tht it's sad how they died in the ravine.  It's haunting and I think this is one of the reasons that people want to find what happened to these poor people.  It feels until the truth is known then there is no justice for them.

It becomes known only when all actions will be understood only as logical and possible in practice. If it not so, it not a secret solution, and attempt to write the scenario for cinema. But it does not concern the validity.

So options for sequence of events:

They split up before they got to cedar tree

It is logical.

They split up at the cedar tree

It is doubtful so how much it is unreal according to the available facts and finds.

They split up at the ravine den

It is so unreal, how much unreal:
1.To Construct such den in snow.
2.To Survive in it clothes available for them.

Is it possible that 7 of them got to the ravine and after four of them had died the remaining trio then tried to get back to the tent?

It in general is impossible, because there are no facts and signs that those three have reached a cedar. Conversations and legends do not replace the facts.

========================
For today I will not have time to answer any more further.
 

December 15, 2018, 06:19:43 AM
Reply #47
Offline

Kopyrda


But it reminds a pose when Kolevatov transferred Zolotaryov on back.
If so, wouldn't Zolotaryov be the one embracing Kolevatov from behind, not the other way around? That's what the description of one of the photos says: "The bodies of Kolevatov and Zolotaryov were embraced breast-to-back, as if Kolevatov was protecting or trying to warm up Zolotaryov." If one of them indeed transported another, it rather seems from the photo that Zolotaryov had carried Kolevatov.

« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 07:47:14 AM by Kopyrda »
 

December 15, 2018, 04:50:50 PM
Reply #48
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
WAB can I ask.

Do you think they did build a den or do you think that the den is just  a few tree branches and an incorrect conclusion of the investigation?

Do you think the injuries of those in the ravine were caused by a fall?

Do you think they split into 3 separate groups after leaving the tent?

Thanks
 

December 16, 2018, 02:29:44 AM
Reply #49
Offline

WAB


But it reminds a pose when Kolevatov transferred Zolotaryov on back.
If so, wouldn't Zolotaryov be the one embracing Kolevatov from behind, not the other way around?

So it also means and reminds – carrying on back. Kolevatov carry Zolotaryov
I so think that some misunderstanding often arises because of double transfer.

That's what the description of one of the photos says: "The bodies of Kolevatov and Zolotaryov were embraced breast-to-back, as if Kolevatov was protecting or trying to warm up Zolotaryov." If one of them indeed transported another, it rather seems from the photo that Zolotaryov had carried Kolevatov.


I wrote about the same it.
 

December 16, 2018, 02:34:31 AM
Reply #50
Offline

WAB


WAB can I ask.

Yes, of course. For this purpose there is this forum.

Do you think they did build a den or do you think that the den is just  a few tree branches and an incorrect conclusion of the investigation?

They did not build any den. Because it there it is simply impossible. Snow was a little quantity. On a slope of ravine snow very friable also is showered at any excavation. That that was in quality den is a shoddy construction for this purpose, what it is possible was put on all of them wounded men for this purpose that they could to wait when others transfer to a fire which was at a cedar. It was attempt to isolate them from snow while transport of the others.
Any conclusions concerning this den in the investigation description does not exist.

Do you think the injuries of those in the ravine were caused by a fall?

Traumas which were in this group share on two categories: thorax and head injury traumas. Therefore it is possible to tell that thorax traumas are received near to that place where them have found. Close there is " necessary" place. The head injury at Thibo could be received only much above on a slope because near to a place where them have found there are no "necessary" conditions. He transported therefrom.

Do you think they split into 3 separate groups after leaving the tent?

Yes. Only with more probability these groups were formed already below a place where there was a tent. Could be both associations, and partings for various reasons. Three on a slope, most likely in general moved separately. Both separately from each other, and separately from other groups.
 

December 16, 2018, 04:11:53 AM
Reply #51
Offline

Kopyrda



So it also means and reminds – carrying on back. Kolevatov carry Zolotaryov
I so think that some misunderstanding often arises because of double transfer.
I'm still not sure if we understand each other that well...
You say that it was Kolevatov who had carried Zolotaryov, right? And that is proven by the position they were found in in the ravine? Because on this photo, we can see Kolevatov's arm around Zolotaryov's neck (in the circle), not the other way around. Kolevatov is behind (implying that HE was the one been carried by Zolotaryov). Unless, it really was the case of Kolevatov trying to warm up Zolotaryov.



 

December 16, 2018, 04:19:50 AM
Reply #52
Offline

Nigel Evans


Unless, it really was the case of Kolevatov trying to warm up Zolotaryov.


Or Koletov's corpse had been positioned to act as a windbreak.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 01:15:12 AM by Nigel Evans »
 

December 16, 2018, 11:18:40 AM
Reply #53
Offline

Monika


................................................
The Igor group may have been trying to get back to the tent, but this was a hopeless exercise as they were already exhausted and too cold.  They had no chance.

I agree with the sequence of event as you wrote. But the question is, after the death of the two under the cedar, they split up so that they agreed that one group would build a den/shelter and the other would go to the clothes in tent?

Before to leave, it was necessary to come there. But such signs are not present. Therefore it is possible to pass this opinion.
To build a den there is no sense because it is necessary to leave in a cold, and the available clothes will not allow to live in such den. Especially if to consider that it in general it was impossible to construct in that place. On walls of a ravine of snow was a little and it was so friable that was showered right after how you start to dig. If it is necessary, I can result some photo of that ravine in яваре, February and March. There the snow condition is well visible. Besides, it began necessary to consider that for last 60 years of snow much more because of climate warming.


Or the two groups separated from each other and the group went to the tent only for clothing for themselves, and the other group built a day for themselves? Somewhere I read that the den was so big (3m2) that there were only for four people to sit there. Or after the death of the two under the cedar, tro went to the tent firstly and when did not return, the second group decided to build the den? Why all gropu did not go to the tent and they split up?

It anywhere in documents 1959 is not present. It could be only opinion on the Internet after 50 + years. Den was: the citation from criminal case :"... the den consists of 14 pieces of fir and 1 birch tree trunk on snow." (c) Their size (by words Anatoly Mohov) was 1,5 Х 1 m (that is no more than 1,5 sq. m. of the very seldom located trees in the thickness about 5 … 6 cm in diameter.



It is a picture dug out den.

And the next question is, why  the four were found lying a few meters from the den and not inside as the den was already built and prepared?

Alexander Kolevatov could not transport bodies to den. It did not have not enough forces as it much and long did a hard work. Besides it constantly was on cold in weak clothes.

Apparently, three of them were injured when they stood outside the den, and the last one (Thibo) placed them next to each other and lay down to them not to die alone ( I am so sorry for him) 

1.Tibo could not do anything, that as at it was very much a serious trauma of a head and after it could not even be in understanding any more. It could receive the trauma only halfway from tent to a cedar because anywhere there are no conditions for this purpose further. Further it transferred.
2.Thorax Traumas (Lyudmila and Zolotprev) could receive in 40 … 50 m from a place where them have found. There is a sufficient slope in height in 8 metres (25 ft) and a steepness ~ in 35 degrees.



The next question is, why the trio returning to the tent did not wear the clothes from two under the cedar?

Because they were not at cedar, means they did not go to tent, and went to cedar.

They just needed it the most because they had to wade snow. The only explanation is that the two under the cedars died only after the trio decided to go to the tent and the remaining four had taken their clothes to themselves or to preparing the den.

The unique explanation consists that they there were not, therefore and did not take clothes.

Dyatlov was wearing the vest of Doroshenko,

It was Yudin's vest which it has left in group when left from route. Further it could be transferred freely between participants of group. So it was possible at that time.

Dubinia has some clothes of Doroshenko,

This is very approximate opinion. Though it is impossible to exclude it.

Zolotarev has Dubinia hat and coat – it is clear, she before him

Here this opinion very doubtful. I can translate it to that on such searches always a lot of any mess. Even if it is truth, it about what especial cannot tell.

A lot of clothes from two under tree were in the den

Yes. I so think that Alexander Kolevatov went from a place den to a fire, has taken off clothes from those two and has brought it to den. By the way of movement it has lost a part of these clothes in 15 … 20 m (50…60 ft) from cedar.



And why did Thibo take Zolotarev's watch when he had his own?

Thibo did not take hours Zolotaryov. The second hours at it from Krivonishchenko. It is all it has been made still before all events have begun. As Zolotaryov and Thibo have the best than at all clothes, means they there were men on duty on this parking. The second hours were transferred to the man on duty when it was necessary to make precisely lifting of all group in time, but there were fears that one hours can casually stop. It is just that case.

And why did not he take his camera?

Zolotaryov it did not take with itself, and simply has not removed it after have come on parking. Probably that it has left on himself only a case, and the camera it has given to tent. Thibo did not have his one's own camera. Anyway on this travel.


So many questions and we do not know anything. It's so frustrating.

On all questions there are quite simple and real answers, it is necessary to know much: features of such travel real life of that period of history about which we speak, features of concrete district up to the fine details, typical errors which make by such searches and at consequence carrying out. And still it is very necessary to lean against authentic certificates, especially if about them speak through 50 … 60 years after them. Here happens it is very useful перекрестно to compare these memoirs and to compare them to district, physical laws and historic facts in time. There are still photos of those events which give more objective picture.
If in stories it turns out so that memoirs do not correspond to one from this that I have resulted, they cannot be considered authentic.

Thank you for your great contribution. I just want to specify a few things.
1 I did a mistake in the  sentence "Apparently, three of them were injured when they stood outside the day, and the last one (Thibo) placed them next to each other and lay down to them not to die alone" .  Instead of Thibo I meant Kolevatov. He died as the last one. And I think after the death of all his friends he felt he was too tired and is dying. So he lied nexto to  Zolotarov to feel a „human body and camrade“ not to die alone.
2. And I do not think that only one person built the den, all four of them are likely to be built it.
3. The pieces of clothes near the den could be purpously put  there for the trio, who went for the clothes to the tent to find the easier track to the den that the four of them meanwhile were built. But on the other hand, it does not correspond to the small size of the den, not suitable for all seven people.
4. I do not think anyone would keep a guard at the tent during night due to a weather and whole day's effort traveling, everyone need to sleep in the night to be able to walking next days. And diary does not mention that. Rather, I guess, the two well dressed were outside to pee or smoking or... I dont know, when the tragic event happened.
5. I doubt three of them died on the way from the tent to a tree. Definitely all peple went into the forest together. This fact is supported by  the footprints on the snow, where the first 500 meters  they go together. Do you think that three of them separated and stayed on that place? And after some time they  continued? Or what have they done so far? And their bodies were found on a different path than the traces of 8-9 people heading out of the tent. No, it is quite obvious that they were going to the forest together.
6. I still absolutely don´t undrerstand why Thibo has two watches? And both watches worked well and stopped almost at the same time. So it is clear that the other watched did not replace the first ones that broken down.
 

December 16, 2018, 11:06:55 PM
Reply #54
Offline

Monika


The person on watch wore two watches in case one stopped.

That would explain it. Thanks Nigel

Both watches worked well. One showed 8:14 and the other 8:39 when found.
 

December 17, 2018, 01:00:58 AM
Reply #55
Offline

WAB



I'm still not sure if we understand each other that well...
You say that it was Kolevatov who had carried Zolotaryov, right?

Yes. Because Zolotaryov already had a serious trauma when to it even it was difficult to breathe. Therefore it could not bear Kolevatov in any way. Zolotaryov's trauma the lifetime.

And that is proven by the position they were found in in the ravine? Because on this photo, we can see Kolevatov's arm around Zolotaryov's neck (in the circle), not the other way around. Kolevatov is behind (implying that HE was the one been carried by Zolotaryov). Unless, it really was the case of Kolevatov trying to warm up Zolotaryov.

It is result of that they have already fallen also that water in a stream has made. At falling they could will be displaced with rotation a little. And as Kolevatov could try to support Zolotaryov during falling or already when have fallen.
The version about warming is absolutely illogical and it is not meaningful as a matter of fact physicists of process. Zolotaryov is dressed much more warmly than Kolevatov. It basically is impossible.
 

December 17, 2018, 01:15:08 AM
Reply #56
Offline

WAB



 I just want to specify a few things.
1 I did a mistake in the  sentence "Apparently, three of them were injured when they stood outside the day, and the last one (Thibo) placed them next to each other and lay down to them not to die alone" .  Instead of Thibo I meant Kolevatov. He died as the last one. And I think after the death of all his friends he felt he was too tired and is dying. So he lied nexto to  Zolotarov to feel a „human body and camrade“ not to die alone.

It sometimes happens. You think about one, and you write another. The most important thing that we have together understood a situation.

2. And I do not think that only one person built the den, all four of them are likely to be built it.

At construction it one person, and quickly enough and without the big expenses of forces and time could make a den. In 2010 on this place the group with the head Sergey Semiashkin from Syktyvkar city, Komi republic went. It is the north in front of Ural Mountains from the West.
I wrote them the program of researches and the offer as well as that it is necessary to try to make. One of problems of this program was that after descent it was necessary to find a place in preset area and to build same a den. One person without other help was engaged in it. I assumed that on it is required (theoretical calculation) 1 hour or 1 hour and 15 minutes. By estimations Sergey right after how they have returned to Ekaterinburg, he has told that the person who built has spent for it entirely 1 hour. However, when he has written the report and has sent its copy to me, it has appeared that the person has spent 48 minutes. It specially estimated time. Even if to add some time because Kolevatov was tired, to it was cold and was more dark than at Semiashkin group (though it not so exists) that turns out the same 1 hour or 1 hour and 15 minutes. It is possible to add even 15 minutes, but it does not appear essentially.

3. The pieces of clothes near the den could be purpously put  there for the trio, who went for the clothes to the tent to find the easier track to the den that the four of them meanwhile were built. But on the other hand, it does not correspond to the small size of the den, not suitable for all seven people.

You have not understood that that I wrote. I think (there are many signs) that those 3 were not at den. It is separate group. It turns out so that all groups worked separately from each other and were not crossed. Except that to fire Kolevatov went. After has constructed den. Therefore the den has been made for 3 or 4 persons. As shoddy construction.

4. I do not think anyone would keep a guard at the tent during night due to a weather and whole day's effort traveling, everyone need to sleep in the night to be able to walking next days. And diary does not mention that. Rather, I guess, the two well dressed were outside to pee or smoking or... I dont know, when the tragic event happened.

It has no value about that where they were. They should sleep together with everything, but if they men on duty they should do all work which is in the street. That the others would not be tired and did not receive a cold in addition. Them put to bed from outer side of their sleeping bags that the others would be better protected from a cold.

5. I doubt three of them died on the way from the tent to a tree. Definitely all peple went into the forest together. This fact is supported by  the footprints on the snow, where the first 500 meters  they go together.

Well why you have such doubts?
1.There are no signs of that they worked below because the amount of works there is quite sufficient for a two.
2.At them in pockets it is a lot of subjects which are very necessary at a fire, but they lie not taken in pockets.
3.It is not known what way they have done before have got into place where them have found. Most likely they could wander on a slope or try to find whom that of group, constantly accepting for people different branches and stones. There it at very probably night and without the moon.
4.Slobodin`s head injury from which it could not leave from a place where it has received more than on 50 … 100 m. It is impossible, because the person has so-called «a threadlike consciousness». The consciousness at first appears, but then quickly there is its loss as in a fog, then there is "failure", and then it can appear for some time if the person is in rest.
5.Zina too has not serious traumas: at a waist and blood around the person. Most likely it is the damaged nose.
6.All three are dressed not so well, as those 4 at a den.
7.Traces it not an indicator of joint movement. Because not necessarily all went together. Even if between participants of group there was an interval some minutes it is enough of it that they would not see one - another. Traces can give acknowledgement of that all of them have passed in this place. But there it turns out automatically - they went downhill and in a wind direction. Besides, traces were not one continuous road. They were separate fragments with wide intervals. 500 metrs, to be exact ~ 450 m, are total length of a site where them observed. But it has allowed to count their total. It is very successful case, usually on searches it is possible to see only separate fragments when it is possible to assume only, how many all has passed the person.

Do you think that three of them separated and stayed on that place? And after some time they  continued? Or what have they done so far?

No, they with very high probability also did not see each other. Because if they contacted, there would be signs that who that assisted the one who has suffered. But these signs are not present, even the smallest. To admit what who that has thrown the companion in general anybody from their contemporaries and friends on club of travellers cannot even theoretically.

And their bodies were found on a different path than the traces of 8-9 people heading out of the tent. No, it is quite obvious that they were going to the forest together.

I have already written why it not so.

6. I still absolutely don´t undrerstand why Thibo has two watches? And both watches worked well and stopped almost at the same time. So it is clear that the other watched did not replace the first ones that broken down.

It became specially for the man on duty who should wake all groups in the morning. This time is very essential, therefore to it give the second hours. Just in case. For example, if one stop for any reason. To give hours then when the first have stopped already will be late. As it is not meaningful to awake constantly whom that still, differently then the sense vanishes to appoint the man on duty for this purpose, what to allow to all to have a rest and wake all in time. It is usual practice on such travel of that time.
Not very well that watch worked whole well. In advance it is impossible to know that will occur, therefore and reduced probability of accidents.
We have such joke of travellers: “Compass and a map are necessary till that time as you have already lost the way.” (c)  grin1
 

December 17, 2018, 02:17:08 AM
Reply #57
Offline

WAB


The person on watch wore two watches in case one stopped.

That would explain it. Thanks Nigel

Both watches worked well. One showed 8:14 and the other 8:39 when found.

Yes. There is a certain law in it.
Here there is a section about Chivruay tragedy 1973. I there was also we made experiments with watch. When we have put watch on ice they have stopped approximately through 50 … 60 minutes after them have put. There too we have paid attention that two watch have stopped simultaneously on hands at different people.
There was a continuation of this experiment. When we have found last participant of their this group after we have removed watch and them have a little warmed, they have again started to work.
We have made the statement to main public prosecutor of Murmansk region and it has agreed that to consider it as the fact of approximate time as dead of this person.
 

December 17, 2018, 03:40:40 PM
Reply #58
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
WAB thanks for your insights.  Very interesting.
 

December 18, 2018, 09:01:11 AM
Reply #59
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
WAB can I ask.

Yes, of course. For this purpose there is this forum.

Do you think they did build a den or do you think that the den is just  a few tree branches and an incorrect conclusion of the investigation?

They did not build any den. Because it there it is simply impossible. Snow was a little quantity. On a slope of ravine snow very friable also is showered at any excavation. That that was in quality den is a shoddy construction for this purpose, what it is possible was put on all of them wounded men for this purpose that they could to wait when others transfer to a fire which was at a cedar. It was attempt to isolate them from snow while transport of the others.
Any conclusions concerning this den in the investigation description does not exist.

Do you think the injuries of those in the ravine were caused by a fall?

Traumas which were in this group share on two categories: thorax and head injury traumas. Therefore it is possible to tell that thorax traumas are received near to that place where them have found. Close there is " necessary" place. The head injury at Thibo could be received only much above on a slope because near to a place where them have found there are no "necessary" conditions. He transported therefrom.

Do you think they split into 3 separate groups after leaving the tent?

Yes. Only with more probability these groups were formed already below a place where there was a tent. Could be both associations, and partings for various reasons. Three on a slope, most likely in general moved separately. Both separately from each other, and separately from other groups.

WAB do you think the two Yuri built the fire themselves without help from the others?  Witness statement implies it was work of more than two people?  What are your thoughts?