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Author Topic: Hypothermia could explain everything  (Read 2201 times)

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August 14, 2020, 05:30:59 AM
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eurocentric

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They arrived on the mountain earlier than the 5pm generally suggested (for example, this site states "Camp was set up around 5 pm on a slope of Kholat Syakhl just 16 km (10 miles) from Mount Otorten"), because the 2 photo's said to show them digging the trench in a blizzard are taken in daylight, and it was sundown at 4:29pm. An important detail as this extends the hours without stove heating on an exposed mountain ridge.



They dig their trench, and begin setting up the tent. Ascending the mountain pass and digging that trench, deeper on one side than normal to compensate for the slope, would have worked up quite a sweat, and when you do that in sub zero conditions you risk a chill if you cannot get dry.

The better-dressed Semyon and Tibo are outside, not to urinate, but tasked with completing the ridge ropes, after which Igor, inside with others removing damp outer clothing, can suspend the stove and the pipe flue they have carried wood up a mountain for (wood was found in one corner of the tent).

I believe a military helicopter was then heard approaching the pass. The hikers may have learned of the escapees from the residents of Vizhay and deduced what this was likely about. The military may have been in that specific area following a set of Chinese Whispers producing reports of a group of strangers passing through (the hikers).  Alternatively, there may have been a military exercise underway.

The numerous witness sightings of orange orbs in the sky could be the search light of a helicopter, or several, where atmospheric effects alter the perception of colour at distance while the rotor sound is not heard due to distance and wind direction.

The Yak-24 troop carrier, a twin rotor, capable of carrying up to 30 troops and a vehicle slung underneath, similar to a Chinook (note the angle and shape of the lamp).


One of Semyon's final photo's (enhanced & colourised)


Their immediate reaction is to hide. They are highly conspicuous in an 8ft long dark coloured tent on a white mountain ridge and must work with what material they have around them, snow. I'm sure that out of preference they would sooner have nothing to do with the military in 1959. This could be due to any number of specific reasons, or a collection of them. For example, two of them had illegal Fischer knives, only Aleksander Kolevatov had a permit for his, Tibo & Yuri K did not. Tibo's full name is French, and his father was executed under Stalin, so he may feel he would be under automatic suspicion by a military commander radioing in their IDs, all of which remained in their rucksacks.

In the short time available, and while the helicopter/s search the forest and valleys, and not having completed the tent set-up, they imperfectly drop their tent, give up all notion of using the stove, which would put out smoke, and cover the tent with the snow spoil they have dug. The intention is to make the tent look abandoned when seen from the air, as if subjected to a small avalanche, or collapsed under the weight of snowfall.

Wind scour blows away freshly fallen granular snow on the pass, preserving raised footprints when a hiker's weight has compacted the snow they trod on, and that same wind scour should also clear any on the tent. But this clumpy snow remains on the tent until the rescue party arrive as it's already compacted, and been trodden on. This would also explain how Igor's torch came to be found atop of 10cms of snow on the tent with only a small amount of snow above. And of course snow will not settle on a tent and make it collapse when one side has been cut open.

The effect of wind scour above the tent site


The complex array of ridge ropes employed at a previous site, when on a level, involving 3 loops through the centre eyelets and a fourth rope to tension the skis, which in turn are double anchored to ski poles.


The tent as found, one ski is in entirely the wrong position, and there is little evidence of ridge ropes which should fall slack and be shown tied to skis, and evidence of them running across the tent even if part hidden by snow. Look at the 'snowfall' on the tent and compare it the trench spoil around it.


Helicopter search lights, as used in the rescue mission


They would lay down in the trench under the canvas and snow, many of them partly undressed, in what amounted to a cold coffin, for however long they felt they must, and motionless, and with the greater part of their body in contact with the ground, the least dressed developed hypothermia. During this confinement Semyon would take some of his photo's through the canvas. They'd peep out of holes cut for breathing, and eventually expand on these to cut/tear their way out from laying horizontally, and when suffering the confusing effects of hypothermia, explaining all the inefficient, time-consuming 'emergency evacuation' cuts when made by 9 people laid down inside.



Igor would be shivering and mumbling, incoherent with hypothermia, so the better dressed Semyon would take charge. He will have seen hypothermia kill his comrades in action, and recognise the symptoms, and he'd determine they must head down the pass and start a fire in the woods. They will extinguish it with snow if the helicopter returns.

Igor, the group leader, is so out of it with the effects of hypothermia he leaves without his shoes, drops his coat, does not take a hat or gloves, and forgets his torch. They do not retrieve what they need due to hypothermia affecting their cognition, they forget to take an axe, and this is made yet more difficult through the tent's collapse and snow covering. Semyon cannot risk the time required to dress them all, they have to get down off that mountain ridge.

They assemble nearby and walk in single file down the pass, led by him. The tallest/heaviest, Yuri D, is at the back, indicated by the footprints, and poorly dressed he will take the brunt of windchill and become the first to die. No attempt is made to find the tent again, there are no footprints showing them making any attempt. Experienced hikers will know when they have travelled downhill in an emergency and make some attempt to retrace their steps, tracking their own movements in the snow, so they have not 'lost sight' of the tent; they have purposefully left it behind. Evacuated.



The 1 mile journey down the pass sees them begin to collect injuries from falls and rolls. Hypothermic people cannot reliably walk 20 to 30ft in a straight line, it's like they are drunk. Appropriately, one hiker's tracks were said to deviate and then rejoin the group.

Walking in line in the dark means someone following behind falls on top of someone who has fallen in front, and the person underneath may begin to develop hairline rib fractures from this crushing pressure on the many rocks which jut out of the snow, and those which reside just beneath the surface. Had Lyuda walked 2nd after Semyon this begins to explain the development of the rib fractures they both sustained.

The snow works to soften & spread the impact to reduce surface injury but the pressure still travels through the body until it meets unyielding bone. They avoid the common collar bone (clavicle) fractures through the energy of a forward fall turning into a roll downhill, but that it turn delivers blows to the temples. And they develop injuries to the back of their heads from falling onto their backs, unprotected by the usual rucksacks (or these are sustained during later resuscitation attempts or the agonal stages of hypothermia).

Colourised rescue photo's showing the minefield of rocky outcrops




The modern day hikers who walked down without problem staged an unrealistic test. They needed most of their number to be suffering from hypothermia when they set off, to not be wearing shoes, gloves, hats or coats, and have only cotton clothing on. I'd put money on them not arriving at the cedars unscathed if they did.

Semyon heads for the tallest tree, the cedar, its evergreen foliage providing shelter from the elements, and also somewhere to hide from the helicopter should it return. They cut hardwoods with a knife, because hypothermia has caused them to forget to bring their axes. Tibo possibly falls from the tree sustaining a head injury. They will later drag him to the den because he continues to show signs of life, though unconscious. Igor does most of the tree climbing and generates sores around his ankles, unique to him.



Yuri D & Yuri K go into Stage 3 hypothermia, and lay prone, rigid. They had been positioned close to the fire while the others looked for fuel, and in their agonal stages (used at autopsy to explain scratches) they thrash around until Yuri K's leg and Yuri D's scalp get too near the embers. Due to being unconscious they wouldn't feel anything/react and this communicates to the others they must be dead. They cut off their clothing as sleeves and socks, and Igor takes Yuri D's shirt because he has no coat. 

Zina has likely pressed on ex-boyfriend, Yuri D's, chest to try to revive him, explaining the mention of chest pressure and fluid around the mouth at autopsy. Yuri K will have bitten into his own hand to try to stay awake, but owing to the numbing effects of hypothermia, which reduces blood supply to the extremities (hence frostbite) he did not feel this so bit harder still, until he bit off a piece of his own skin. He then passed out.

Plan B, they cannot sustain the fire and the deaths have brought home how critical their situation now is. They cannot simply hole up in the forest overnight and return to the tent the next day. They head to the ravine and dig a foxhole den by hand, cutting evergreen firs as lining, but this exhausting toil sees 3 more succumb to Stage 3. They try to restart Semyon and Lyuda's hearts with chest pressure but end up cracking their ribs, which may already have hairline fractures from falls downhill.

This era was (just) pre-CPR, which was introduced in 1960, although the university student hikers may have known of it. One report on cardiac arrest victims at autopsy revealed up to 92% had sustained chest fractures during CPR resus, the areas involved being around the sternum and at the sides where the pressure travels. Even in western reports dated 1964 some cadavers had up to 8 rib fractures. Prior to CPR (mouth-to-mouth combined with vigorously pumping the chest focussing on lungs and heart function) it was chest pressure and lifting an arm (the heart and circulation).

http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/pathology/cpr-related-rib-fractures-in-adults/#:~:text=Prospective%20post-mortem%20studies%20following%20CPR%20in%20adults%20show,thirds%20of%20those%20with%20fractures%20have%20multiple%20fractures.

They realise the futility of trying to revive any of them, the scale of the situation before them is overwhelming, and as the numbers dwindle they have to start thinking of their own survival. The 4 all appear dead due to hypothermia stage 3, and so they slide their bodies into the ravine, all heads to one side, and cover them with snow from the bank to hide them from the air. They don't want corpses in the den. Semyon and Lyuda are already dead from resus attempts, and the freezing water saturating their clothing finishes off the unconscious Tibo, and Aleksander Kolevatov, with Stage 4 hypothermia.

Some of the faces are later part-exposed by snow melt, and carrion birds peck out the eyes (as likely explains the same happening with some of the Chivuray hikers who went missing on the Kola peninsula in 1973). Heavy snowfall later covers them, and the den. Lyuda dies with her mouth open, and either her tongue is taken by birds or the flowing water directly into her mouth denudes the oral cavity, the water washing away the decomposing tissues.

At some point later the remaining 3 leave the den, recover it, and head back to the tent. This could be at daybreak. The autopsies suggest they all died within 6 to 8 hours of eating, because food was found in the small intestine, and that is the normal digestive time, but the metabolism will be slower when cold, something true of all mammals.

They need food for energy and to stay warm, their blood sugar is dangerously low, and they do not have much body fat to survive on. Additionally athletic males survive less well than females with hypothermia because physiologically they have less subcutaneous fat. The weather may have stabilised, and it will take them 2 hours to reach the tent, 2 hours or more to rest, eat, and assemble what they need, and an hour or more to drag things back down the pass, and they have only 8 hours of daylight available, so there is a narrow window of opportunity, operating around the changing weather, allowing for only a few hours rest in the den during which time their core temperatures may slightly improve.

They set out, walking, and then crawling on all fours, at times using their palms and fists to avoid frostbite to their fingers from repeatedly plunging them into snow (explaining the knuckle injuries unique to these 3 on both hands), and on their knees (Igor doing this more, because he had no shoes, and kneecap injuries were unique to him). Igor leads but dies first, the other two continue, Rustem's head injury, possibly generating a blood clot and while under exertion sees him suddenly collapse, explaining his ice bed, and Zina gets furthest, half way to the tent, as she may have expended the least energy, has that little bit more fat, and is the better dressed. A blizzard may have arrived to halt her progress.

A military helicopter returns in daylight and sees the bodies on the pass, lands, or has men abseil down a rope to turn the bodies, explaining the movement after death. Any tracks are later covered by snow, as are the bodies. They have no idea about the others. Later the commander files a report about dead hikers, explaining how, according to one documentary which uncovered some military papers, it seems they knew about 'missing hikers' before the families contacted the university to raise the alarm.



In conclusion the military did not directly kill the hikers, but the paranoid fear of the State machine indirectly did, because it prevented them starting their overnight life support machine, their stove, while they were caught up in a military search zone, or some kind of exercise. This delay set in motion an overnight battle with hypothermia. The Cold War killed them...in their battle against the cold.



« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 08:24:59 AM by eurocentric »
 

August 14, 2020, 10:26:20 AM
Reply #1
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I very much doubt that Hypothermia explains everything. By all accounts the Dyatlov Group left the Tent in a hurry.
DB
 

August 14, 2020, 10:55:57 AM
Reply #2

eurocentric

Guest
I very much doubt that Hypothermia explains everything. By all accounts the Dyatlov Group left the Tent in a hurry.

Logically that makes no sense. You don't leave a tent in a hurry, as if there is some emergency where every second counts, only to assemble 50 yards away to walk in single file down a mountain pass. You don't panic and then recover like that. If the danger has passed, or you were mistaken as to the threat, you return to the tent. If the danger is still present you leave as fast as you can, and not in line.

To explain this dichotomy the next offering is 'they lost sight of the tent', as in the official avalanche theory where a blizzard is included in the mix, but that carries no logic either, since this group of experienced hikers made no attempt to find it again, something which would be evidenced by the same type of footprints used to track their progress down the pass.

And 9 people do not cut their way out of a tent in the manner of them all auditioning for the shower scene in Psycho, it isn't an efficient or speedy way of them all exiting the tent.

A load of base assumptions are made about this case, particularly how it begins. I found myself indoctrinated into precisely this "by all accounts" when I first learned of this mystery 5 weeks ago, but soon after I started to question the validity of these early 'facts', because they cannot be known as absolutes, they are illogical, and they conspire to leave more boxes unticked than they tick.

That is why I'm offering a different take, a less exotic one perhaps, but something which explains both the behaviour and the injuries.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 11:04:28 AM by eurocentric »
 

August 14, 2020, 12:22:46 PM
Reply #3
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Squatch


I very much doubt that Hypothermia explains everything. By all accounts the Dyatlov Group left the Tent in a hurry.

Logically that makes no sense. You don't leave a tent in a hurry, as if there is some emergency where every second counts, only to assemble 50 yards away to walk in single file down a mountain pass. You don't panic and then recover like that. If the danger has passed, or you were mistaken as to the threat, you return to the tent. If the danger is still present you leave as fast as you can, and not in line.

I do not think they recovered from their panic. It is an assumption that they did, nothing more.

It does no good to run downhill and fall repeatedly due to gravity. You will not escape avalanche conditions that way. You will not escape anything for that matter. You can panic and evacuate by walking. Running is not required if it is not an option for survival.
 

August 14, 2020, 05:03:47 PM
Reply #4
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I very much doubt that Hypothermia explains everything. By all accounts the Dyatlov Group left the Tent in a hurry.

Logically that makes no sense. You don't leave a tent in a hurry, as if there is some emergency where every second counts, only to assemble 50 yards away to walk in single file down a mountain pass. You don't panic and then recover like that. If the danger has passed, or you were mistaken as to the threat, you return to the tent. If the danger is still present you leave as fast as you can, and not in line.

To explain this dichotomy the next offering is 'they lost sight of the tent', as in the official avalanche theory where a blizzard is included in the mix, but that carries no logic either, since this group of experienced hikers made no attempt to find it again, something which would be evidenced by the same type of footprints used to track their progress down the pass.

And 9 people do not cut their way out of a tent in the manner of them all auditioning for the shower scene in Psycho, it isn't an efficient or speedy way of them all exiting the tent.

A load of base assumptions are made about this case, particularly how it begins. I found myself indoctrinated into precisely this "by all accounts" when I first learned of this mystery 5 weeks ago, but soon after I started to question the validity of these early 'facts', because they cannot be known as absolutes, they are illogical, and they conspire to leave more boxes unticked than they tick.

That is why I'm offering a different take, a less exotic one perhaps, but something which explains both the behaviour and the injuries.


I repeat.  By all accounts the Dyatlov Group left the Tent in a hurry.  Check the various dictionaries for a definition of the word HURRY.
DB
 

August 14, 2020, 08:15:48 PM
Reply #5
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Squatch


I very much doubt that Hypothermia explains everything. By all accounts the Dyatlov Group left the Tent in a hurry.

Logically that makes no sense. You don't leave a tent in a hurry, as if there is some emergency where every second counts, only to assemble 50 yards away to walk in single file down a mountain pass. You don't panic and then recover like that. If the danger has passed, or you were mistaken as to the threat, you return to the tent. If the danger is still present you leave as fast as you can, and not in line.

To explain this dichotomy the next offering is 'they lost sight of the tent', as in the official avalanche theory where a blizzard is included in the mix, but that carries no logic either, since this group of experienced hikers made no attempt to find it again, something which would be evidenced by the same type of footprints used to track their progress down the pass.

And 9 people do not cut their way out of a tent in the manner of them all auditioning for the shower scene in Psycho, it isn't an efficient or speedy way of them all exiting the tent.

A load of base assumptions are made about this case, particularly how it begins. I found myself indoctrinated into precisely this "by all accounts" when I first learned of this mystery 5 weeks ago, but soon after I started to question the validity of these early 'facts', because they cannot be known as absolutes, they are illogical, and they conspire to leave more boxes unticked than they tick.

That is why I'm offering a different take, a less exotic one perhaps, but something which explains both the behaviour and the injuries.


I repeat.  By all accounts the Dyatlov Group left the Tent in a hurry.  Check the various dictionaries for a definition of the word HURRY.

No need to check dictionary. I do not dispute the definition. But "hurry" in this case does not mean "run downhill and fall on your face."

I may be in a hurry to jump from an airplane, but I will not jump without a parachute so I can get to the ground quicker.
 

August 15, 2020, 10:13:38 PM
Reply #6
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Georgi




No need to check dictionary. I do not dispute the definition. But "hurry" in this case does not mean "run downhill and fall on your face."

I may be in a hurry to jump from an airplane, but I will not jump without a parachute so I can get to the ground quicker.
IF you destroyed your only shelter for 60+km, leave the tent in a very poor state of dress with no survival tools or equipment and then travel 1.5km on foot in the dark while poorly dressed to hide from a military helicopter that could very well be conducting a search operation then you have already jumped out of an aircraft without a parachute and are now flapping your arms hoping you can fly.
 

August 15, 2020, 10:32:01 PM
Reply #7
Offline

Georgi


They arrived on the mountain earlier than the 5pm generally suggested (for example, this site states "Camp was set up around 5 pm on a slope of Kholat Syakhl just 16 km (10 miles) from Mount Otorten"), because the 2 photo's said to show them digging the trench in a blizzard are taken in daylight, and it was sundown at 4:29pm. An important detail as this extends the hours without stove heating on an exposed mountain ridge.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

In conclusion the military did not directly kill the hikers, but the paranoid fear of the State machine indirectly did, because it prevented them starting their overnight life support machine, their stove, while they were caught up in a military search zone, or some kind of exercise. This delay set in motion an overnight battle with hypothermia. The Cold War killed them...in their battle against the cold.

This doesn't really explain much, all of the hikers were members of the communist party, they had paperwork approving their travel and directing any authority to render any assistance they needed. If they were willing to display their knives openly and on film then they likely were not as big a deal even if they were illegal. If a helicopter is searching for escaped prisoners a seemingly abandoned tent would be a place to search and disassemble and the hikers would have to know that which would mean if the military landed troops on the ground and found the hikers hiding and intentionally camouflaging their position their illegal knives would be the least of their problems.

Their injuries were consistent with a fight, while the once in the ravine were of a much greater and intentional force which would have required a hell of a lot of terrible luck for both Zolotaryov and Lyuda to fall down dozens of times and develop such injuries because that would require that they always fall the same way and always the only rocks they fall on happen to be the once they land on chest first and never bothered to catch themselves with their hands. Even if they are suffering from hypothermia some things are just instinct and falling down a few times in such a small time with such force to cause those injuries would cause injuries to the hands, arms, legs and face. The head injuries were to similar to have happened naturally because again, how unlucky does a group of people have to be to keep falling on the rocks in such specific ways?

They had no reason to hide, hey must know that hiding would make them look guilty even if the helicopter is not actually looking for them or anyone and if they were in their tents they would have been lying on their rucksacks and at the very least lying on their blankets and slowly passed on different people's clothing to the owner and slowly dressed up. This was at night so they would have had the time to dress properly even if they planned to head to the treeline, what they wouldn't do is hide in their tent from a helicopter they have no knowledge why its there and do the hiding while they are poorly dressed and in the dark.
 

August 16, 2020, 03:59:32 AM
Reply #8

eurocentric

Guest
I very much doubt that Hypothermia explains everything. By all accounts the Dyatlov Group left the Tent in a hurry.

Logically that makes no sense. You don't leave a tent in a hurry, as if there is some emergency where every second counts, only to assemble 50 yards away to walk in single file down a mountain pass. You don't panic and then recover like that. If the danger has passed, or you were mistaken as to the threat, you return to the tent. If the danger is still present you leave as fast as you can, and not in line.

To explain this dichotomy the next offering is 'they lost sight of the tent', as in the official avalanche theory where a blizzard is included in the mix, but that carries no logic either, since this group of experienced hikers made no attempt to find it again, something which would be evidenced by the same type of footprints used to track their progress down the pass.

And 9 people do not cut their way out of a tent in the manner of them all auditioning for the shower scene in Psycho, it isn't an efficient or speedy way of them all exiting the tent.

A load of base assumptions are made about this case, particularly how it begins. I found myself indoctrinated into precisely this "by all accounts" when I first learned of this mystery 5 weeks ago, but soon after I started to question the validity of these early 'facts', because they cannot be known as absolutes, they are illogical, and they conspire to leave more boxes unticked than they tick.

That is why I'm offering a different take, a less exotic one perhaps, but something which explains both the behaviour and the injuries.


I repeat.  By all accounts the Dyatlov Group left the Tent in a hurry.  Check the various dictionaries for a definition of the word HURRY.

It doesn't matter how many times you reinterate your point, it doesn't reinforce its weakness. You've done the same in the tornado topic, where you keep posting a tornado would blow the tent away and ignore posts explaining how it's a localised vortex and not a hurricane.

If you think they left in a hurry, and were not slowed in their behaviour and actions through the effects of hypothermia, then you can try to explain how Igor's torch came to be on top of 10cms of snow.

I've created a detailed post which tries to unravel all the anomalies, to join all the dots, linking to their behaviour, and all their injuries. You may prefer to accept all the wildly contradictory early 'facts' about what happened at the tent which this site and others conspire to program every reader with, because like lovers of the Loch Ness Monster that then requires posters to invent ever more complex theories to accommodate these self-contradictory 'facts'.

When the police have a cold case they return to the beginning and question whether some of the taken-for-granted 'facts' were true. That is what this mystery soberly requires, and there's no reason why the explanation should be much different to the demise of other hiking groups in sub-zero temperatures.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2020, 04:58:02 AM by eurocentric »
 

August 16, 2020, 04:01:27 AM
Reply #9

eurocentric

Guest
I very much doubt that Hypothermia explains everything. By all accounts the Dyatlov Group left the Tent in a hurry.

Logically that makes no sense. You don't leave a tent in a hurry, as if there is some emergency where every second counts, only to assemble 50 yards away to walk in single file down a mountain pass. You don't panic and then recover like that. If the danger has passed, or you were mistaken as to the threat, you return to the tent. If the danger is still present you leave as fast as you can, and not in line.

To explain this dichotomy the next offering is 'they lost sight of the tent', as in the official avalanche theory where a blizzard is included in the mix, but that carries no logic either, since this group of experienced hikers made no attempt to find it again, something which would be evidenced by the same type of footprints used to track their progress down the pass.

And 9 people do not cut their way out of a tent in the manner of them all auditioning for the shower scene in Psycho, it isn't an efficient or speedy way of them all exiting the tent.

A load of base assumptions are made about this case, particularly how it begins. I found myself indoctrinated into precisely this "by all accounts" when I first learned of this mystery 5 weeks ago, but soon after I started to question the validity of these early 'facts', because they cannot be known as absolutes, they are illogical, and they conspire to leave more boxes unticked than they tick.

That is why I'm offering a different take, a less exotic one perhaps, but something which explains both the behaviour and the injuries.


I repeat.  By all accounts the Dyatlov Group left the Tent in a hurry.  Check the various dictionaries for a definition of the word HURRY.

No need to check dictionary. I do not dispute the definition. But "hurry" in this case does not mean "run downhill and fall on your face."

I may be in a hurry to jump from an airplane, but I will not jump without a parachute so I can get to the ground quicker.

A much more appropriate analogy would be that when the fire alarm goes off at work you quickly leave and assemble outside at the fire point, and you go back inside when the danger is over or it's determined to be a false alarm.
 
You don't take off your clothing, put on a blindfold, and "calmly walk" into the industrial freezer unit next door.
 

August 16, 2020, 04:13:50 AM
Reply #10

eurocentric

Guest
They arrived on the mountain earlier than the 5pm generally suggested (for example, this site states "Camp was set up around 5 pm on a slope of Kholat Syakhl just 16 km (10 miles) from Mount Otorten"), because the 2 photo's said to show them digging the trench in a blizzard are taken in daylight, and it was sundown at 4:29pm. An important detail as this extends the hours without stove heating on an exposed mountain ridge.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

In conclusion the military did not directly kill the hikers, but the paranoid fear of the State machine indirectly did, because it prevented them starting their overnight life support machine, their stove, while they were caught up in a military search zone, or some kind of exercise. This delay set in motion an overnight battle with hypothermia. The Cold War killed them...in their battle against the cold.

This doesn't really explain much, all of the hikers were members of the communist party, they had paperwork approving their travel and directing any authority to render any assistance they needed. If they were willing to display their knives openly and on film then they likely were not as big a deal even if they were illegal. If a helicopter is searching for escaped prisoners a seemingly abandoned tent would be a place to search and disassemble and the hikers would have to know that which would mean if the military landed troops on the ground and found the hikers hiding and intentionally camouflaging their position their illegal knives would be the least of their problems.

Their injuries were consistent with a fight, while the once in the ravine were of a much greater and intentional force which would have required a hell of a lot of terrible luck for both Zolotaryov and Lyuda to fall down dozens of times and develop such injuries because that would require that they always fall the same way and always the only rocks they fall on happen to be the once they land on chest first and never bothered to catch themselves with their hands. Even if they are suffering from hypothermia some things are just instinct and falling down a few times in such a small time with such force to cause those injuries would cause injuries to the hands, arms, legs and face. The head injuries were to similar to have happened naturally because again, how unlucky does a group of people have to be to keep falling on the rocks in such specific ways?

They had no reason to hide, hey must know that hiding would make them look guilty even if the helicopter is not actually looking for them or anyone and if they were in their tents they would have been lying on their rucksacks and at the very least lying on their blankets and slowly passed on different people's clothing to the owner and slowly dressed up. This was at night so they would have had the time to dress properly even if they planned to head to the treeline, what they wouldn't do is hide in their tent from a helicopter they have no knowledge why its there and do the hiding while they are poorly dressed and in the dark.



Being photographed with knives, in film for later development, and being found with them when interviewed on a mountain pass by a suspicious military looking for something they can have on you, are two completely different things. I have listed only examples of what may have driven them to wish to hide; I cannot possibly know the specific reasons, and nor could anybody else here.

The military would not stop to search a tent high up on a mountain ridge if it's made to look abandoned, wrecked, not a survivable habitat - that would be the whole point of what the hikers would be trying to be achieve, and what else can explain the compacted snow on the tent, a tent half cut open where the weight of accumulating snowfall could have no chance of collapsing it.

The injuries were not consistent with a fight, there is an absence of external injuries to the faces, the eyes, the jawline, the lips, the nose, typically consistent with a fist fight, even if you think the hands of some have it, and the serious internal injuries do not have corresponding external skin/tissue injuries either.

If they were instead fighting the ''attackers' this site directs the reader towards believing were there, then you'd need to explain how these attackers were both so lethal yet so lightweight that, unlike the hikers, they left no tracks from their weight compressing snow. And if you believe the hikers were fighting among themselves then you need to explain what facial injuries link to that, who was fighting who, who struck who, and why, and how they found this energy for a brutal and prolonged conflict when facing certain death from the cold.

I have stated the rib fractures, the fatal heart-penetrating ones, were ultimately caused by resuscitation, and provided a link to autopsy studies showing just how common such injuries are and, where detailed, to the same ribs. It's so common that in some countries first responders, be they medics or members of the public, have to be protected from prosecution by Good Samaritan laws.

I've described how the crushing weight of a following hiker, who walked in line down a mountain pass at night, and under the staggering effects of hypothermia, may have initiated a set of hairline fractures on the numerous rocky outcrops they had to cross to make it to the cedar tree, so them first falling with their hands out in front is irrelevant to what follows.

Try, as I have, to create a theory which explains all the anomalies, not simply dig up a whole load more.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2020, 05:02:18 AM by eurocentric »
 

August 16, 2020, 07:03:26 PM
Reply #11
Offline

Georgi



Being photographed with knives, in film for later development, and being found with them when interviewed on a mountain pass by a suspicious military looking for something they can have on you, are two completely different things.
They were openly carrying knives they didn’t have permits for, do you think this is the one and only time that they did that? I bet they had their knives on previous hikes and there were photographs, I doubt this was their first foray into carrying a knife.


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I have listed only examples of what may have driven them to wish to hide; I cannot possibly know the specific reasons, and nor could anybody else here.
The examples make no sense since they were young communists, some of them working in rather secretive locations which would carry clout, the last thing they would do is hide from a soviet military helicopter and then abandon their tent because that is what will cause them problems, being where they said they would be at the time frame they said they would be there with proper paperwork from the local communist party official would have given them enough confidence to not hide.

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The military would not stop to search a tent high up on a mountain ridge if it's made to look abandoned, wrecked, not a survivable habitat - that would be the whole point of what the hikers would be trying to be achieve, and what else can explain the compacted snow on the tent, a tent half cut open where the weight of accumulating snowfall could have no chance of collapsing it.
Really? Is that it? The military which according to you was looking for escaped prisoners would leave a seemingly abandoned tent just because it looks abandoned? Were they born that day or the day before? That tent would either be a potential shelter and supply for those they are looking for or has already been ransacked and will provide evidence, people in the 1950’s Soviet Union didn’t just abandon their gear dozens of km away from civilization for no reason and if there was an abandoned tent with potential supplies the military would destroy or disassemble and take it with them which would condemn the hikers to a certain death.

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The injuries were not consistent with a fight, there is an absence of external injuries to the faces, the eyes, the jawline, the lips, the nose, typically consistent with a fist fight, even if you think the hands of some have it, and the serious internal injuries do not have corresponding external skin/tissue injuries either.
Four of them had injuries on their hands consistent with a fist fight, they also had various other injuries on their face, head and bodies consistent with a fist fight. Igor, Rustem, Zina and Yuri K. have facial injuries that are consistent with a fight, Rustem, Igor and Zina have extensive facial injuries consistent with a fight, Zina has injuries on her side consistent with a strike by a hard object like a baton, Rustem has injuries to his head that caused his death. So yes there were plenty of signs of a fight on four of the bodies, this fight didn’t need to last more than 20 seconds, they started swinging, got a few good punches in and in turn they took a few punches and were either subdued or someone fired a warning shot.

As for the four in the ravine, they could have been killed through a variety of methods, falling down on the snow and managing to hit a rock at the exact same place every time is not one of them and if it is for Lyuda and Zolotaryov that means they have to be the worlds unluckiest couple of people.

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If they were instead fighting the ''attackers' this site directs the reader towards believing were there, then you'd need to explain how these attackers were both so lethal yet so lightweight that, unlike the hikers, they left no tracks from their weight compressing snow.
There are ways to cover your tracks if you have a reason to do so and have the training and experience. Then there was the fact that between the death of the hikers and the search party there was about 25-26 days, so whatever means the attackers used to cover their tracks was aided by the time, weather and zeal of the search party to find the hikers which destroyed any remaining evidence. Whoever killed them had a day or two of total freedom to clean up after themselves and contaminate the scene.

 
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And if you believe the hikers were fighting among themselves then you need to explain what facial injuries link to that, who was fighting who, who struck who, and why, and how they found this energy for a brutal and prolonged conflict when facing certain death from the cold.
I don’t believe they fought amongst themselves, most of them seemed to be problem solvers, people who when presented with an issue would go to work finding solutions and several of them were presented as anything but people easily scared.

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I have stated the rib fractures, the fatal heart-penetrating ones, were ultimately caused by resuscitation, and provided a link to autopsy studies showing just how common such injuries are and, where detailed, to the same ribs. It's so common that in some countries first responders, be they medics or members of the public, have to be protected from prosecution by Good Samaritan laws.
Zolotaryov and Lyuda were both better dressed at time of death than some of the others, Zolotaryov specifically would have been the most likely to be lucid and functioning because he was by far the best dressed in the group so Zolotaryov would have been last to succumb to the cold and there would have been no one to do cpr to him.

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I've described how the crushing weight of a following hiker, who walked in line down a mountain pass at night, and under the staggering effects of hypothermia, may have initiated a set of hairline fractures on the numerous rocky outcrops they had to cross to make it to the cedar tree, so them first falling with their hands out in front is irrelevant to what follows.
If the path is rocky they would have plenty of injuries to back up that theory, if on the other hand it had few rocks they were the worlds unluckiest people to keep falling down and hurting themselves on the few rocks they encountered. If the path is littered with rocks, what are the chances they fell down repeatedly and hit the same region of their bodies repeatedly without once falling down and hurting other body parts?
 

August 18, 2020, 03:33:38 PM
Reply #12
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I very much doubt that Hypothermia explains everything. By all accounts the Dyatlov Group left the Tent in a hurry.

Logically that makes no sense. You don't leave a tent in a hurry, as if there is some emergency where every second counts, only to assemble 50 yards away to walk in single file down a mountain pass. You don't panic and then recover like that. If the danger has passed, or you were mistaken as to the threat, you return to the tent. If the danger is still present you leave as fast as you can, and not in line.

To explain this dichotomy the next offering is 'they lost sight of the tent', as in the official avalanche theory where a blizzard is included in the mix, but that carries no logic either, since this group of experienced hikers made no attempt to find it again, something which would be evidenced by the same type of footprints used to track their progress down the pass.

And 9 people do not cut their way out of a tent in the manner of them all auditioning for the shower scene in Psycho, it isn't an efficient or speedy way of them all exiting the tent.

A load of base assumptions are made about this case, particularly how it begins. I found myself indoctrinated into precisely this "by all accounts" when I first learned of this mystery 5 weeks ago, but soon after I started to question the validity of these early 'facts', because they cannot be known as absolutes, they are illogical, and they conspire to leave more boxes unticked than they tick.

That is why I'm offering a different take, a less exotic one perhaps, but something which explains both the behaviour and the injuries.


I repeat.  By all accounts the Dyatlov Group left the Tent in a hurry.  Check the various dictionaries for a definition of the word HURRY.

No need to check dictionary. I do not dispute the definition. But "hurry" in this case does not mean "run downhill and fall on your face."

I may be in a hurry to jump from an airplane, but I will not jump without a parachute so I can get to the ground quicker.

Well I have never said that they ran downhill and fell on their faces. I have always maintained that they left the Tent in a HURRY.
DB
 

August 18, 2020, 03:46:09 PM
Reply #13
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I very much doubt that Hypothermia explains everything. By all accounts the Dyatlov Group left the Tent in a hurry.

Logically that makes no sense. You don't leave a tent in a hurry, as if there is some emergency where every second counts, only to assemble 50 yards away to walk in single file down a mountain pass. You don't panic and then recover like that. If the danger has passed, or you were mistaken as to the threat, you return to the tent. If the danger is still present you leave as fast as you can, and not in line.

To explain this dichotomy the next offering is 'they lost sight of the tent', as in the official avalanche theory where a blizzard is included in the mix, but that carries no logic either, since this group of experienced hikers made no attempt to find it again, something which would be evidenced by the same type of footprints used to track their progress down the pass.

And 9 people do not cut their way out of a tent in the manner of them all auditioning for the shower scene in Psycho, it isn't an efficient or speedy way of them all exiting the tent.

A load of base assumptions are made about this case, particularly how it begins. I found myself indoctrinated into precisely this "by all accounts" when I first learned of this mystery 5 weeks ago, but soon after I started to question the validity of these early 'facts', because they cannot be known as absolutes, they are illogical, and they conspire to leave more boxes unticked than they tick.

That is why I'm offering a different take, a less exotic one perhaps, but something which explains both the behaviour and the injuries.


I repeat.  By all accounts the Dyatlov Group left the Tent in a hurry.  Check the various dictionaries for a definition of the word HURRY.

It doesn't matter how many times you reinterate your point, it doesn't reinforce its weakness. You've done the same in the tornado topic, where you keep posting a tornado would blow the tent away and ignore posts explaining how it's a localised vortex and not a hurricane.

If you think they left in a hurry, and were not slowed in their behaviour and actions through the effects of hypothermia, then you can try to explain how Igor's torch came to be on top of 10cms of snow.

I've created a detailed post which tries to unravel all the anomalies, to join all the dots, linking to their behaviour, and all their injuries. You may prefer to accept all the wildly contradictory early 'facts' about what happened at the tent which this site and others conspire to program every reader with, because like lovers of the Loch Ness Monster that then requires posters to invent ever more complex theories to accommodate these self-contradictory 'facts'.

When the police have a cold case they return to the beginning and question whether some of the taken-for-granted 'facts' were true. That is what this mystery soberly requires, and there's no reason why the explanation should be much different to the demise of other hiking groups in sub-zero temperatures.

Well all options are open , I guess. The early Search Teams did not exactly conduct a Scene Of Crimes Investigation. They were not expecting to find a potential Crime Scene. Therefore there was a fair bit of wondering around all over the area and no doubt across Tracks, etc. Also and very importantly, they were not recording everything. So some information became second hand, as it were.
DB