August 16, 2022, 03:39:32 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: moon phase Feb. 1959  (Read 1904 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

March 24, 2021, 07:29:55 AM
Read 1904 times

tenne

Guest
https://www.calendar-12.com/moon_calendar/1959/february

For general interest in how much light there may have been at that time, of course it also depends on cloud cover but it wasn't a full moon and they would have either stumbled down the slope, made a right and then a left to the cedar in the dark or had a source of light. Given the fact it wasn't a straight path to the cedar from the tent, it makes me wonder how they got to the cedar
 

March 24, 2021, 07:36:12 AM
Reply #1
Offline

Teddy

Administrator
 

March 24, 2021, 08:46:15 AM
Reply #2

tenne

Guest
I have the moon phase here as well.
https://dyatlovpass.com/expedition-unknown


I did not see that, thank you for posting it.
 

March 24, 2021, 06:08:21 PM
Reply #3
Offline

Manti


I have read that the cedar is a "prominent" point... Looking at the search photos it isn't. I don't think they "found" the cedar or aimed towards it... they were simply trying to go into the forest for some reason, maybe to find a larger tree that might have dead, dry branches to use for a fire, and the cedar was the first such tree they encountered.
 

March 25, 2021, 01:58:19 AM
Reply #4

trekker

Guest
I have read that the cedar is a "prominent" point... Looking at the search photos it isn't. I don't think they "found" the cedar or aimed towards it... they were simply trying to go into the forest for some reason, maybe to find a larger tree that might have dead, dry branches to use for a fire, and the cedar was the first such tree they encountered.

I think they made navigation error while trying to get to the storage. Distance to the storage was roughly same as to the cedar. The storage was in the treeline so it was quite easy to find even at dark. Tenne made good observation about zigzagging. Propably they tried to find the storage by zigzagging when they descended towards treeline. Eventually they ended to the cedar and perished there or nearby.

Climbing to cedar still puzzles me. I suggested that they split up and tried to communicate. But that zigzagging could indicate they descended as a single group and they climbed to cedar to locate their position after that navigation error.

Edit: please note that they had firewood ready at the storage. So best chances to go relative shelter from wind below treeline and make fire was the storage.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 03:05:44 AM by trekker »
 

March 26, 2021, 08:31:02 PM
Reply #5
Offline

Manti


Yes it could be that they made a navigation error.. But wouldn't it be very hard to make? They went downhill from the tent straight away.. whereas to get to the labaz they would need to go a bit uphill to get to the hillcrest and then descend from there. Also (presuming the date of the incident is correct), they just came from the labaz less than 24 hours ago... out of 9 people wouldn't there be at least one insisting the labaz is in a different valley and they need to cross the "pass" first?
 

March 27, 2021, 04:49:29 AM
Reply #6

trekker

Guest
Yes it could be that they made a navigation error.. But wouldn't it be very hard to make? They went downhill from the tent straight away.. whereas to get to the labaz they would need to go a bit uphill to get to the hillcrest and then descend from there. Also (presuming the date of the incident is correct), they just came from the labaz less than 24 hours ago... out of 9 people wouldn't there be at least one insisting the labaz is in a different valley and they need to cross the "pass" first?

Very good questions and this raises questions of their orienteering skills. How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct headings without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training overall in those times?

Based on my practical experinces from conscript of Finnish armed forces (officer, platoon leader level), I always had map of the surroundings in my mind, so in this situation (without heavy mental stress) I would have remembered correct headings without map. However if I was member of platoon in Reserve Officer Training Course (ROTC, RUK in Finnish) without command authority and leadership, I would NOT have correct situational awareness of surroundings...because I don't need to have, just follow the guy in front of you. But I never had really, really stressful situation so I cannot tell, if I had remembered maps and correct headings in my mind in really hard situations like Igor had.

This navigation error is direct contrary and exclude reson from fear. If they perceived imminent threat from direction of labaz, it would be reasonable flee directly downward to cedar because it was fastest route and it was direction away from imminent threat.  If they had time to assess the situation without imminent threat, only reasonable course of action would have been descent to labaz (instead to the cedar, which was farther than labaz), because they had firewood, food rations, two pairs of shoes and some medical supplies in the labaz. Tenne's important note of zigzagging is kind of proof that they were searching something like their labaz made earlier.

"In the storage were nineteen items of food with a total weight of 55 kg. Also found were some medical supplies and Dyatlov’s warm outer boots, plus one pair of spare ski boots, a mandolin, a set of batteries and a lamp, and a mounting set."
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 05:34:30 AM by trekker »
 

March 27, 2021, 09:45:11 AM
Reply #7
Offline

KFinn


Yes it could be that they made a navigation error.. But wouldn't it be very hard to make? They went downhill from the tent straight away.. whereas to get to the labaz they would need to go a bit uphill to get to the hillcrest and then descend from there. Also (presuming the date of the incident is correct), they just came from the labaz less than 24 hours ago... out of 9 people wouldn't there be at least one insisting the labaz is in a different valley and they need to cross the "pass" first?

Very good questions and this raises questions of their orienteering skills. How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct headings without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training overall in those times?

Based on my practical experinces from conscript of Finnish armed forces (officer, platoon leader level), I always had map of the surroundings in my mind, so in this situation (without heavy mental stress) I would have remembered correct headings without map. However if I was member of platoon in Reserve Officer Training Course (ROTC, RUK in Finnish) without command authority and leadership, I would NOT have correct situational awareness of surroundings...because I don't need to have, just follow the guy in front of you. But I never had really, really stressful situation so I cannot tell, if I had remembered maps and correct headings in my mind in really hard situations like Igor had.

This navigation error is direct contrary and exclude reson from fear. If they perceived imminent threat from direction of labaz, it would be reasonable flee directly downward to cedar because it was fastest route and it was direction away from imminent threat.  If they had time to assess the situation without imminent threat, only reasonable course of action would have been descent to labaz (instead to the cedar, which was farther than labaz), because they had firewood, food rations, two pairs of shoes and some medical supplies in the labaz. Tenne's important note of zigzagging is kind of proof that they were searching something like their labaz made earlier.

"In the storage were nineteen items of food with a total weight of 55 kg. Also found were some medical supplies and Dyatlov’s warm outer boots, plus one pair of spare ski boots, a mandolin, a set of batteries and a lamp, and a mounting set."

Do you think that if the wind was as strong as has been believed, that there was a chance they could not have gone in the direction of the storage?  There are testimonies by various locals in the region saying the winds were particularly bad at that time; one if them mentioned children blowing over in town, another said the winds were the worst he'd witnessed in thirty or more years in the area.  Is it possible that they could not have gone in that direction if the wind was gale force?  Maybe they tried to route around somehow?  I'm a short, small person so I get blown around in heavy winds but they were stouter, lol.  Is it plausible the weather prevented them from where they wanted to go?
-Ren
 

March 27, 2021, 09:51:34 AM
Reply #8

tenne

Guest
walking into a head wind is very tiring and cold and snow blowing in your face etc it would make sense to me to go down wind as far as possible, then maybe try to angle to the cache. but honestly, if they were there and they left the tent dressed like that, getting to a place where you could light a fire and get warm would be the first order of business, then try to make plans. so why they went a meandering route to the cedar is beyond my understanding.
 

March 27, 2021, 10:00:04 AM
Reply #9

trekker

Guest
Yes it could be that they made a navigation error.. But wouldn't it be very hard to make? They went downhill from the tent straight away.. whereas to get to the labaz they would need to go a bit uphill to get to the hillcrest and then descend from there. Also (presuming the date of the incident is correct), they just came from the labaz less than 24 hours ago... out of 9 people wouldn't there be at least one insisting the labaz is in a different valley and they need to cross the "pass" first?

Very good questions and this raises questions of their orienteering skills. How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct headings without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training overall in those times?

Based on my practical experinces from conscript of Finnish armed forces (officer, platoon leader level), I always had map of the surroundings in my mind, so in this situation (without heavy mental stress) I would have remembered correct headings without map. However if I was member of platoon in Reserve Officer Training Course (ROTC, RUK in Finnish) without command authority and leadership, I would NOT have correct situational awareness of surroundings...because I don't need to have, just follow the guy in front of you. But I never had really, really stressful situation so I cannot tell, if I had remembered maps and correct headings in my mind in really hard situations like Igor had.

This navigation error is direct contrary and exclude reson from fear. If they perceived imminent threat from direction of labaz, it would be reasonable flee directly downward to cedar because it was fastest route and it was direction away from imminent threat.  If they had time to assess the situation without imminent threat, only reasonable course of action would have been descent to labaz (instead to the cedar, which was farther than labaz), because they had firewood, food rations, two pairs of shoes and some medical supplies in the labaz. Tenne's important note of zigzagging is kind of proof that they were searching something like their labaz made earlier.

"In the storage were nineteen items of food with a total weight of 55 kg. Also found were some medical supplies and Dyatlov’s warm outer boots, plus one pair of spare ski boots, a mandolin, a set of batteries and a lamp, and a mounting set."

Do you think that if the wind was as strong as has been believed, that there was a chance they could not have gone in the direction of the storage?  There are testimonies by various locals in the region saying the winds were particularly bad at that time; one if them mentioned children blowing over in town, another said the winds were the worst he'd witnessed in thirty or more years in the area.  Is it possible that they could not have gone in that direction if the wind was gale force?  Maybe they tried to route around somehow?  I'm a short, small person so I get blown around in heavy winds but they were stouter, lol.  Is it plausible the weather prevented them from where they wanted to go?

To my undestanding wind was from west, so it was propably easiest to go down east to the cedar. But if the wind was sole cause to left tent, why leave without proper clothing? And they didn't show any sign to go to labaz by different route around. They all perished in quite straight line from tent to cedar.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 10:27:45 AM by trekker »
 

March 27, 2021, 10:49:39 AM
Reply #10

trekker

Guest
walking into a head wind is very tiring and cold and snow blowing in your face etc it would make sense to me to go down wind as far as possible, then maybe try to angle to the cache. but honestly, if they were there and they left the tent dressed like that, getting to a place where you could light a fire and get warm would be the first order of business, then try to make plans. so why they went a meandering route to the cedar is beyond my understanding.

That is so excellent find in this thread tenne! Is it possible to have a map You referred? I think labaz was critical because they had left (among other things) firewood there. Going to cedar for firewood was coincidence. They did know that they had left firewood in labaz, but they didn't have any information beforehand that there is this certain cedar, which provide some dry branches to make fire. To me it seems they were searching labaz and that is the reason to meandering route.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 10:53:59 AM by trekker »
 

March 27, 2021, 11:11:02 AM
Reply #11
Offline

Investigator


The evidence suggests they had at least one clear plan in mind, and executed it well, but then found out that it was not going to work, so no, they weren't going to the labaz.  That would be more difficult (and they might freeze to death before they even reached it), and it wouldn't serve any better purpose (in terms of what they thought their plan would result in).  I have seen videos in which someone walks down (easily) from where the tent was likely located to the treeline (I think it took about 10 minutes), and the footprints suggest this was the case.  As to the link cited (https://dyatlovpass.com/expedition-unknown), here are some quotes:

"The immediate goal is really to hide from the wind, and having ascended the previous day they were aware that the wind dies down very quickly once your approach the tree line. I have read this in testimonies, but also experienced it myself.

Try to assess the difficulty of movement without skis:
a) on the slope of Kholat Syakhl
For me it was almost the same ski or not ski i.e. relatively easy, but we had less snow
b) in the area of ​​cedar and den

As I said, I didn't go down to the cedar, Morgan said it is difficult. This appraisal is personal on my opinion, but sinking up to your waist on every step is difficult for anyone.
We didn't go down the slope because first the time advanced to 2:30 pm and we had to head down for overnight in Izba Ilycha Hut, but more importantly the weather totally closed on us, we were in visibility not more than 20-30m. The weather cleared right after we went back to the snowmobiles, as if Otorten shrouded itself not to be filmed."

What we learn here is that the weather can change quickly, and so the group may have gone down to the treeline in relatively "nice" weather.  Also, regardless of the conditions near the tent, the group would have likely thought the weather was better (at least less wind) at the tree line.  The claim about not being able to easily get to the tree line or move around in the area of the cedar is contradicted by the video I saw but more importantly by the actual evidence found by the rescuers.  So, this is consistent with a decision-making error (setting up the tent where they did that night, possibly made a lot worse without a heat source).


 

March 27, 2021, 11:20:49 AM
Reply #12

trekker

Guest
The evidence suggests they had at least one clear plan in mind, and executed it well, but then found out that it was not going to work, so no, they weren't going to the labaz.  That would be more difficult (and they might freeze to death before they even reached it), and it wouldn't serve any better purpose (in terms of what they thought their plan would result in).  I have seen videos in which someone walks down (easily) from where the tent was likely located to the treeline (I think it took about 10 minutes), and the footprints suggest this was the case.  As to the link cited (https://dyatlovpass.com/expedition-unknown), here are some quotes:

To my understanding labaz was rougly at same distance as the cedar. Route to labaz needed only minor ascending before descending to it. So why labaz was not in their mind? In the labaz was firewood, food rations, 2 pair of boots and some medical supplies and they knew it.

 Thank You for the information of descending speed. I have always had estimate of 6 km/h in my trekking, so this makes sense to get to the 1 km treeline in 10 mins.

My point is that no one doesn't consider any kind of errors. They made navigation error and ended to the cedar instead of labaz, and eventually they perished there. In my experiences in situations like this is that people make more errors than correct action. Of course I have been personally lucky to have so called bail out, but Dyatlov group was all alone out of civilization so they had to make all correct. They failed two things and perished. To me those 2 things was cutting snow for tent and navigation error after delayed release of a small snow slab.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 11:38:52 AM by trekker »
 

March 27, 2021, 12:40:36 PM
Reply #13
Offline

Manti


In Expedition Unknown, Josh and Teddy take a core sample from a tree. Maybe that wasn't at the cedar but still they did descend into the forest in daylight.  dunno1

Also... they stay at the pass in tents overnight... So I totally don't get that comment @Investigator. But it's in the article..
 

March 27, 2021, 12:43:46 PM
Reply #14

trekker

Guest
In Expedition Unknown, Josh and Teddy take a core sample from a tree. Maybe that wasn't at the cedar but still they did descend into the forest in daylight.  dunno1

How You can tell the time of descent from core sample?
 

March 27, 2021, 12:45:36 PM
Reply #15
Offline

Manti


@trekker I mean in the TV documentary.. Which https://dyatlovpass.com/expedition-unknown is about.

The article says they didn't go to the cedar (ok) but they do go into the forest near to other large trees in the film