Theories Discussion > General Discussion
They could NOT have been crushed by snow!
Paf:
What if some in the den survived a collapsing ?
I'm thinking about Dyatlov, Kolmogorova, but overall Slobodin who has fractured skull. They could explain why the 4 "den dead" were not on the branches.
(((( They were cold (but not freezing yet), mourning Krivo an Doroshenko (since they had their jumper, pants, ect), talking about itinerary for the next day (the compass and notebook), and then the den collapse.
Some of them are injured, some not. (Dubinina, in addition to her broken chest, could have bitten her tongue cut : she got blood in her stomac, and the river bugs / currant eat the rest )
Slobodin and maybe Dyatlov or / and Kolmogorova take the other out of the collapsed den. Dubinina die first, so her main jacket pass to Tibo. It's not enough, and the 3 better-feeling people freeze slowly watching their friend die / trying to keep them warm. -Dubinina remains are disposed along the 3 others, but the river later move her body.-
After the 4 people die, the remaining 3/2/1 (Slobodin at least), freezing, try to hike back to the tent to find food and heating device and die from hypothermia on their way, it-self caused by cold it-self, exhaustion and/or injuries. ))))
sarapuk:
--- Quote from: Paf on April 15, 2021, 03:08:53 PM ---What if some in the den survived a collapsing ?
I'm thinking about Dyatlov, Kolmogorova, but overall Slobodin who has fractured skull. They could explain why the 4 "den dead" were not on the branches.
(((( They were cold (but not freezing yet), mourning Krivo an Doroshenko (since they had their jumper, pants, ect), talking about itinerary for the next day (the compass and notebook), and then the den collapse.
Some of them are injured, some not. (Dubinina, in addition to her broken chest, could have bitten her tongue cut : she got blood in her stomac, and the river bugs / currant eat the rest )
Slobodin and maybe Dyatlov or / and Kolmogorova take the other out of the collapsed den. Dubinina die first, so her main jacket pass to Tibo. It's not enough, and the 3 better-feeling people freeze slowly watching their friend die / trying to keep them warm. -Dubinina remains are disposed along the 3 others, but the river later move her body.-
After the 4 people die, the remaining 3/2/1 (Slobodin at least), freezing, try to hike back to the tent to find food and heating device and die from hypothermia on their way, it-self caused by cold it-self, exhaustion and/or injuries. ))))
--- End quote ---
We dont know if it was a Den and if any one had have been in it or on it. So we cant say if there was a collapse or not.
Jean Daniel Reuss:
Reply #102
--- Quote from: KFinn on March 29, 2021, 11:46:30 AM ---.....
I did just (moments ago, oddly!!) read an interview from 2012 with Askinadzi who said there were no stained clothes when he helped Yuri Yudin inventory the clothing from the tent. Another list to make; who saw stains and who refutes them so I can compare perspectives!!
........................
Sort of. It was posted in another group on Facebook, but without a link. The interview was with Maya Piskareva in 2012, but I don't know where it was initially published. There are snippets of it on this site, under the article "Chicken ala Otorten." The text is very lengthy, and the part about the colored clothing is all the way at the end. It was posted as "part 1." I am hoping to get more information on where this originated, so if this looks familiar to anyone, please feel free to fill in the gaps!!!!
"Maria Piskareva by V. Askinadzi: "We are the last of the Mohicans ..."
................
Posted on 09/10/2012, revised 02/17/2015
.........................
Vladimir Askinadzi tells ...
--- End quote ---
The first interview from Vladimir Askindazi, by Maya Piskareva Reply #102, seems to be well back in 2012, (Posted on 09/10/2012, revised 02/17/2015).
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=866.msg14752#msg14752
I also found this link in Russian (I translated with DeepL), dated October-November 2013 and which does not make any significant changes it seems to me.
http://samlib.ru/p/piskarewa_m_l/sharavinkontakt.shtml
Reply #103
--- Quote from: KFinn on March 29, 2021, 11:50:16 AM ---Also, please note. Some of Askinadzi's thoughts in the unknown interview oppose his thoughts in this interview:
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=244.0
(Mainly he differs on the theory of murder/killers.)
--- End quote ---
Indeed there is another interview which seems to date from 2018, which would have given Askinadzi 6 years to "think a lot" and conclude that the 9 hikers were murdered.
--- Quote from: Teddy on August 22, 2018, 05:09:07 AM ---
Natalya Varsegova and Vladimir Askindazi
--- End quote ---
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=244.msg1451#msg1451
To hide the truth about the murder of Dyatlov group, the authorities came up with a missile version.
Authors Nikolay Varsegov and Natalya Varsegova
https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?filter_page=3&rbid=18461
Why did you decide that on there was a murder on the pass ?
Vladimir Mihaylovich Askinadzi ==>
« I thought a lot about this and came to the conclusion that no spontaneous force could kill the nine healthy and fit guys. They could not just freeze in those conditions. Well, again, these inexplicable injuries. Don’t ask me, I don’t know who or why they were murdered. But this seems to me the only explanation of their death.
Me too "I thought a lot about this" and I (slowly) came to a criminological theory (more rigorously an explanatory hypothesis) which is able to answer easily to
WHO ? - WHY ? - HOW ?
This theory was naturally formed by gathering the individual contributions of 3 main authors who are : Eduard Tumanov, Per Inge Oestmoen, Aleks Kandr.
Therefore, in recognition and in tribute to its 3 main pillars or 3 founding fathers I have chosen the name of TOK theory.
TOK theory = Eduard Tumanov + Per Inge Oestmoen + Aleks Kandr = murder or relentless Altercation on the pass
Obviously there are many other posts on this forum that are involved in the development of TOK. But those do not contain as much development as the 3 founding fathers (T, O and K). There are also texts and forums in Russian (difficult for myself since DeepL is necessary for me) and articles in French language of French sovietologists.
But first a warning: TOK is for those who are not repelled by criminal theories ( Криминальные ).
As WAB said: «...You need a very large amount of text to explain your position. Especially considering the fact that many positions need to be explained in great detail, because they are not understood on a domestic level.......... I'm not a writer, I'm a researcher, I want the physical result of what happened, not the number of letters on a paper ...». Naturally the real presentation of TOKwill be quite lengthy...
Nevertheless if you were interested and would like to have a first feel of TOK now, you may read the following URL.
T ---> https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg4945#msg4945
---> + some videos on this site with sound in Russian (hard for me to follow).
O ---> https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=325
K ---> http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
---> https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=1002.0
And, you may also have a glimpse into the mental process by which the TOK theory has progressively become clearer in my mind by reading some of my previous posts :
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=714.msg16051#msg16051 ( Ivdellag breaks in 1959; Reply #3 :May 17, 2021 )
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=844.msg16275#msg16275 ( Army Tactician - Definitely Ambush, potential events; Reply #17 :June 10, 2021 )
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg16299#msg16299 ( Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death; Reply #46 :June 20, 2021 )
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg16307#msg16307 ( Altercation on the pas; Reply #60 :June 23, 2021 )
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=961.msg16384#msg16384 ( The Tent was cut to make it useless; Reply #1 :July 16, 2021 )
What a shame ! Finally, after the indecisions of a long engagement, I am now married to the most beautiful and intellectually appealing of all the explanatory hypotheses of the DPI : the TOK theory.
Paf:
--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on September 05, 2021, 08:52:37 AM ---
Naturally the real presentation of TOKwill be quite lengthy...
--- End quote ---
I'll be following !
There are a few things I can't make sens of with any existing murder theory, but I'll let you all chances to convince me.
Jean Daniel Reuss:
To make a really valid presentation of the TOK theory it would be necessary at least to take into account (on September 7, 2021) the 16387 Posts, and the 270 members (out of 681) having sent at least 1 message.
Without counting the 11 Guests who are less easy to retrieve: SteveCalley - tenne - tekumze - Glacon - Veed - mja Mahé - Ian Jones - DAXXY - trekker - CR3012 - eurocentric ....
In fact it is a big job, and as a lazy person I am not sure I will ever get through it. In the meantime, here are a few little disparate comments.
°°°°
--- Quote from: Paf on August 30, 2021, 01:38:15 PM --- General Discussion - Rational or Irrational...What do you think? Why move the bodies; Reply #15
They were experienced mountainers. Anybody going for a trek longer than 5 days has ideas about what could happen, and (partials) solutions. You've heard stories, made your own on "how you would react", found partial/inadequate/adequate/... solutions in advance.
...................................
When alone, anyone can lose cold blood, I agree. But for everybody to panic at the same time , even just the majority of the group, it would take a lot.
One panic : another one calm him down, without even knowing what the panic is about. Then when he know and start to panic as well, the first one is back to cold blood and can handle him.
....................
--- End quote ---
Totally agree: From what we know of the 9 hikers, all the explanations by panicking are implausible.
°°°°
In order to eventually be convinced one day by TOK, the first and most difficult mental stage is to admit the idea of the criminal nature of PGD. Thus this first stage seems to have been taken, for example, by :
•••
--- Quote from: EBE on June 23, 2021, 06:15:41 AM --- Victims > Lyudmila Dubinina > Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death ---> Reply #47
I think you are right about the murder theory being probably the most plausible one. Besides multiple traces indicating presence of someone else in the area of their death (putees, knife sheath, belt strap, spoon..), the hard evidence is clear: Autopsy reports. Almost all of them had injuries on the side or back of their head. Even Igor Dyatlov - this is not stated in the autopsy report, but is visible on one of the photos from the morgue.
......................
--- End quote ---
•••
--- Quote from: Dona on May 16, 2021, 11:28:13 AM --- General Discussion > Why move the bodies ---> Reply #16
You have to look at the injuries. These people were attacked, by someone.. For example.. Igor has machining wounds on both sides of his face.. A tree falling would have smashed his face and nose.. yet there is nothing. Then, most all of them had head wounds.. again, some matching.. 3 people with matching U shaped wounds.. This was an attack..
--- End quote ---
The first stage to admit mentally the idea of the criminal nature was also clearly completed by :
••• NightLurker : «...Each were doomed with their injuries but hypothermia set in before death...»
••• hoosiergose : «...the Occam’s Razor doctrine would lean towards murder. (calculated murder)...»
«...I still think this was murder - that is listening to my heart of hearts -a genuine gut feeling- too many unexplained injuries- Someone helped them die that night...»
••• armyeng : «...Attackers likely at this point did not bother continuing pursuit or search (at night), but waited at or near the camp site for them to try and return, the group knew this, and this is why they did not move back and re-occupy the camp. Attackers knew by morning they would likely be all dead...»
«...Likely culprits: Gulag guards...»
••• Nordlander : «...You can see I favor the murder theory...»
«...the ravine four....I think it's more likely the attackers ... were jumped on them...»
«...So I think there were probably 3-5 attackers. There are three separate crime scenes, and it's unclear how everything happened except that the den group lived the longest. I think the attackers came back three separate times since they had hoped the hikers would die from the cold: the old gulag trick where you don't leave any traces...»
«...the killers were doing when the hikers walked a mile downhill to the cedar, I think the assailants were the ones who frogmarched them, probably on short skis or snowshoes. There's one military-type boot print visible in one photo, and the residue of a ski track in another.../i][/b]
••• Liyla79 : «...They were killed, by someone. And not within the group...»
«... I believe the murderers came back to confirm the deaths, and saw that they had survived the gas. Which is why they group had time to build fires and the den. They then realised they had to kill them, one by one...»
••• sharp55 : «...I would bet they would also concede to the fact it could also be demonstrated they were murdered and simply not just hypothermia...»
••• Angel1 : «...a retired Russian criminologist says murder and by professional killers. I agree...»
••• ...............................................
°°°°
--- Quote from: Paf on August 30, 2021, 01:38:15 PM --- General Discussion - Rational or Irrational...What do you think? Why move the bodies; Reply #15
One girl seems to be confused, even before the deadly events. ............
--- End quote ---
The girl in question is Lyuda Dubinina, 20 years old, and she is not known to be mentally weak.
Galina Kiryanovna Batalova's opinion :
• «...Lyuda proved herself to be a wise, firm, thoughtful and fair leader. She was always attentive to us, the beginners, and helped us in everything.....»
• «...She was so excited that she was approved to go with Dyatlov and was kind of inspired, anxious, training, getting ready. She was a strong person, both physically and spiritually....»
In any case, she should know that in hiking unforeseen setbacks can occur since in summer 1958 she was shot in one leg.
( Note that it was probably a small-calibre bullet or even just a hunting pellet, as she had no significant after-effects afterwards. )
°°°°
For TOK, the short sojourn of the hikers in Vizhay (January 25-26, 1959), is at the same time decisive and embarrassing because of the too small number of indications
It is BottledBrunette who has sensed the right track thanks to her fine female psychological intuition.
Victims > Lyudmila Dubinina > Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death August 26, 2019, 08:36:05 AM --> Reply #16
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg6905#msg6905
• This is not the complete text of BottledBrunette, I removed, without scruples, the "unnecessary words" to emphasize his idea:
«... Lyuda was sexually assaulted by ... the men...»
[Young girls]«...who either are sexually assaulted, either by rape or attempted rape or just being fondled, or harassed, their personalities change....»
[That girl]«...undergo profound psychological changes in their personalities. Anger, lethargy, depression, self blaming, etc....»
[Dubinina]«...said something what was construed as being above her place or snotty, what have you, to one of the men, and he tried to rape her, or manhandle her a bit, but, either she fought him off or it was interrupted somehow....»
«...that was why she wrote she was so angry as heck and she felt horrible, the place was horrible.....»
«...she thought she would get over it, but, didn't, and that's why she was so 'hostile' and not wanting to participate... stopping any kind of writing in her personal diaries...
«...the man [sponsor, client], with the help of his buddies [the 3 hired murderers], came back to finish her off.....»
A slightly different idea about the decisive time spent in Vizhay:
Georgi : Victims > Lyudmila Dubinina > Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death, August 12, 2020, 02:47:57 AM ---> Reply #25
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg10467#msg10467
«...She might have seen something she shouldn't have seen, or recognized someone who wanted to remain anonymous and her subconscious was bothering her because she might not have even realized what was wrong. What we know is that something was eating at her, what we can infer from the fact that she was on the hike is that her usual behaviour during hikes was professional and appropriate or she wouldn't have been invited on this once....»
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