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91

General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by Ziljoe on April 09, 2024, 10:51:52 AM »

Gunmat. I have supplied examples. This is an incident that happened in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairngorm_Plateau_disaster

Edging closer and without reference points in the whiteout, they realised that they had got very close to a person on her hands and knees. Davidson was still up on the plateau and trying to crawl for help. Two crew were unloaded 64 metres (70 yd) away, the closest they could manage. Then, they reached the casualty but could not carry her to the helicopter because her legs were locked in a kneeling position. The helicopter could get no closer because when it applied power, the blowing snow obliterated vision and so one of the crew jumped out to lead it in the right direction by using the winch wire. There was no sign of anyone else from Davidson's group. Davidson was taken by helicopter to Aviemore, where she was met by ambulance. She was in the advanced stages of hypothermia and her hands were frozen solid, but although she was confused and barely able to speak, she managed to let her rescuers know that the rest of the party was close to where she had been rescued.[50] She could say only the words "Burn – lochan – buried" to rescuer Brian Hall, but that gave sufficient clues.[51]

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1507.msg24041#msg24041

92

General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by Ziljoe on April 09, 2024, 10:45:33 AM »

The photos of how the bodies were found does back up freezing in the cold. I think it's termed the boxer postion as in Igor. The bodies were found 3 weeks after death so Im not sure where "emergency medicine" comes in. This may be a translation issue.

When alive but suffering the conditions of freezing, I would argue that the palm , up to certain point., Can not be used . The dexterity has gone.

Death by hypothermia is complex and the data and observations are only coming to light now. Perhaps we have to look at data from now going backwards.

93

General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by gunmat on April 09, 2024, 10:31:42 AM »

To Ziljoe :Emergency medicine is a Norwegian term that encompasses physicians who specialize in injuries resulting from accidents or inflicted violence. Post mortem images show nothing. It is natural to close the hand when freezing. It is also a completely natural reflex to cushion the fall with the palm when falling, rather than with a clenched fist. One does not need movable fingers to cushion the fall with the inside of the hand. I will delve into this more thoroughly after having the autopsy reports translated into my native language directly from Russian. All cases are as complex as we make them out to be.

94

General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by MDGross on April 09, 2024, 10:18:05 AM »

Thanks for the kind words Ziljoe. And thanks GlennM for your post directed at Axelrod.

You somehow skipped over the key words in my post, Axelrod, which are "wonder if..." I don't know anything about this bizarre case with certainty and I've never claimed that I did. I offer educated guesses and speculation on this forum like most other posters.

I think about these nine courageous and young men and women almost every day. So, yes, I'm there with them. At least in my mind.

95

General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by Ziljoe on April 09, 2024, 09:19:39 AM »

I don't entirely agree with your conclusions, I openly admit I could be wrong. Emergency medicine ( I don't fully understand) but there was no emergency medicine? It's the aftermath that is described in the autopsy. There is lose snow and hard snow . If you're hand are compromised, frozen or freezing, your hands do not open to to fall on your palms , they start to freeze, they become fists the wrist will freeze, mobility of all joints are compromised. We can see this in the photos of Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem. We can also see this in other hypothermia victims.

The reported bleeding has possible other explanations , hypothermia is a complex issue.

96

General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by gunmat on April 09, 2024, 08:46:37 AM »

I believe that the best people to determine what causes what injuries are experts in emergency medicine. Some conclusions can be drawn by us ordinary people. They didn't walk into a rockery, but into loose snow. If you fall, you land on your palms, not with clenched fists. The bleeding in the left temporal muscle was not frostbite, but the result of a blow to the head. That blow could only have come from something hitting him on the head. It doesn't necessarily have to be evidence of an attack from someone else, but something hit him on the head.

97

General Discussion / Re: Survival programs as a resource.

« Last post by Ziljoe on April 09, 2024, 08:28:39 AM »

I agree, I think the main injuries happened at the ceder/ ravine. It just took one of them to fall through a steam Ice bridge  or build a snow cave and things escalate from there.

98

General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by Ziljoe on April 09, 2024, 08:26:08 AM »

I think the full link exists, but it will take time to find. Much of this has been discussed before. Death by hypothermia causes many of the reported injuries found on the DP9. This includes, hemorrhages , marks on hand , legs etc. The fight for life continues even when limbs start to freeze. That includes crawling on hands and knees, falling , pushing the body to its extreme to survive. Hand dexterity will fail , that includes the ability to redo button's on pockets, to hold things etc.

99

General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by gunmat on April 09, 2024, 06:50:33 AM »

"Thank you for the link. I've only read the abstract and it's not enough. Do you have the full article? It seems strange to me that the skull didn't open along the sutures if the expansion of soft tissue caused it to crack. The fracture goes through the frontal lobe, which is the most robust of all skull bones. I believe the autopsy reports need to be carefully read, something I will do when I have time, after getting them translated directly from Russian to Norwegian to avoid semantic issues when reading the reports via English. Slobodin had 'Hemorrhages in the temporal muscles', indicating external blows. I'm not an expert on head injuries. Nevertheless, I believe some conclusions can be drawn from examinations conducted by forensic experts."

100

General Discussion / Re: The Last Leg

« Last post by GlennM on April 08, 2024, 08:02:30 PM »

The tree theory has its merits, primarily for shelter and access to firewood and water. A blowdown or a random fall is certainly possible. The hikers are not going to tie off on a loose tree, surely. A nearby tree could fall and perhaps even cause injuries suggested in Teddy's theory. Of course there are things that argue against it such as the physical locations of the hikers and the tent. No blood or tree residue was noted on the tent.

What I find compelling is the labaz. It is above Dyatlov Pass. That pass should have been taken in order for the hikers to camp at the cedar. But apparantly they did not cross there. So I imagine that they crossed over in the high ground. Now, looking ahead to Ortoten, who would deliberately turn away from it and go downslope to the forest, only to fight their way back up to Ortoten? No, they had won the high ground, but were beaten back by the weather, losing a day. Surely they felt that they could get to their goal without losing ground. It was a good idea. Nature is indifferent to ideas.