Reply #17
...........................
2 military puttees and one sash were found that did not belong to the group,
...........................
••• issue : why did they build a fire ?
--> answer : probably to avoid being too cold (and perhaps even to avoid freezing to death) since they were at the base of the Cedar while wearing, for the most part, clothes that were not warm enough.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
••• issue : Is it possible the hikers did not build the fire, but the attackers did ?
--> answer : Yes, it is possible. Have a look at what EBE wrote:
EBE : Murdered > Army Tactician - Definitely Ambush, potential events; December 16, 2021, 12:05:16 PM --> Reply #21
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=844.msg16775#msg16775
«.....I think that the fire was not lit/used by students, but by someone else for a different purpose or purposes, and the only connection between the fire and the students are severe burns on Krivonishenko's leg and traces of burns on Doroshenko's head. I would also like to point out that Krivonisenko's burns were not caused by (even prolonged) contact with the stove, because his leg was burned from multiple sides....»
EBE : Murdered > Army Tactician - Definitely Ambush, potential events; January 13, 2022, 02:02:14 PM --> Reply #28
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=844.msg17016#msg17016
«..... I doubt that it [the fire] was lit for the purpose of attracting the Dyatlov group..........»
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
••• issue : 3 of them had ankle abrasions that it has been suggested indicates they were tied ?
--> answer : It seems that it was only Dyatlov who had his ankles tied.
This is probably because the attackers wanted to make sure that Dyatlov could not move, as he did not appear to be completely knocked out and unconscious.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
••• issue : ...these hikers were interrogated. What would they be interrogating for ?
--> answer : The question asked by the attackers was :
Where are the four hikers who escaped us and who we can not find ?
(the four hikers who escaped us = Zolotaryov, Kolevatov, Tibo, Dubinina, who had hidden in the Den).
Look at what I wrote 2 years ago, which is still valid:
Jean Daniel Reuss : Theories Discussion > Altercation on the pass > Krivonischenko biting his hand
June 11, 2020, 11:53:29 PM --> Reply #4
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=408.msg9561#msg9561
Recently, on 10 February 2022, on the website :
https://www.kp.ru/daily/27358/4539638/
Dmitry Kireev carried out his own reconstruction of a possible method of torture of krivonishenko by the means of fire.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/KP-3-forum.jpg)
Reply #17
...........................
2 military puttees and one sash were found that did not belong to the group,
...........................
••• issue : why did they build a fire ?
--> answer : probably to avoid being too cold (and perhaps even to avoid freezing to death) since they were at the base of the Cedar while wearing, for the most part, clothes that were not warm enough.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
••• issue : Is it possible the hikers did not build the fire, but the attackers did ?
--> answer : Yes, it is possible. Have a look at what EBE wrote:
EBE : Murdered > Army Tactician - Definitely Ambush, potential events; December 16, 2021, 12:05:16 PM --> Reply #21
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=844.msg16775#msg16775
«.....I think that the fire was not lit/used by students, but by someone else for a different purpose or purposes, and the only connection between the fire and the students are severe burns on Krivonishenko's leg and traces of burns on Doroshenko's head. I would also like to point out that Krivonisenko's burns were not caused by (even prolonged) contact with the stove, because his leg was burned from multiple sides....»
EBE : Murdered > Army Tactician - Definitely Ambush, potential events; January 13, 2022, 02:02:14 PM --> Reply #28
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=844.msg17016#msg17016
«..... I doubt that it [the fire] was lit for the purpose of attracting the Dyatlov group..........»
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
••• issue : 3 of them had ankle abrasions that it has been suggested indicates they were tied ?
--> answer : It seems that it was only Dyatlov who had his ankles tied.
This is probably because the attackers wanted to make sure that Dyatlov could not move, as he did not appear to be completely knocked out and unconscious.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
••• issue : ...these hikers were interrogated. What would they be interrogating for ?
--> answer : The question asked by the attackers was :
Where are the four hikers who escaped us and who we can not find ?
(the four hikers who escaped us = Zolotaryov, Kolevatov, Tibo, Dubinina, who had hidden in the Den).
Look at what I wrote 2 years ago, which is still valid:
Jean Daniel Reuss : Theories Discussion > Altercation on the pass > Krivonischenko biting his hand
June 11, 2020, 11:53:29 PM --> Reply #4
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=408.msg9561#msg9561
Recently, on 10 February 2022, on the website :
https://www.kp.ru/daily/27358/4539638/
Dmitry Kireev carried out his own reconstruction of a possible method of torture of krivonishenko by the means of fire.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/KP-3-forum.jpg)
Thank you, Jean Daniel, I had not seen the video of the re-enactment of the fire before. That is pretty amazing, that the burns to the fake leg were exactly like those of Krivonishenko.
Reply #20
............................
But why use a giant hammer ?
................................
Indeed, the attackers used essentially cunning, deception, treachery and surprise.
The attackers had no need for firearms or giant hammers....
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
You probably know by now that I support my TOKEB theory, which is also inspired by Vietnamka (Murder Indead - Reply #61).
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=110.msg3058#msg3058
Citation :
«.......But the main question of why the victims were not simply shot ?
the victims were injured with one blow. Simply and effectively.....»
- Rather a first decisive blow by surprise and treachery, followed by a large number of other blows if necessary. -
«......But the main question of why the victims were not simply shot
the simplest answer is - attackers didnt have [fire]weapons.
[Fire] weapons were strictly prohibited in USSR except for hunting weapons. If it is correct assumption, we can exclude some categories of people attacker did not belong :
1) sololders (army, KGB)
2) hunters
...........................»
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
I have made numerous (rather several) attempts, trial runs and tests of hitting with blunt objects : maple branches of different dimensions, and reshaped with an axe.
As I still do not have any human or large mammal skulls boxes at my disposal, I hit old furniture out of order, to break them into small pieces.
And here is the most significant result of my tests: The main weapons of the 3 attackers looked like this picture :
(https://joueclub-joueclub-fr-storage.omn.proximis.com/Imagestorage/images/0/400/5e3d899582a5a_deguisement_en_homme_prehistorique_ou_des_cavernes.jpg)
.
Thus, the blunt objects used by the attackers were lighter and more easily transported than the giant hammer that appears on the web page of Dmitry Kireev.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
I started by reasoning on a geometric cylinder made of wood.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMTk0rMGVmkoGkrNsc4swFNPHBdyKNujL20Q&usqp=CAU)
Da: Diameter = 7 centimeters.
L: Length = 1 meter = 100 centimeters.
d: Density of wood = 0.6 (approximately) for birch or cedar (Pinus sibirica).
The theoretical weight of such a cylinder in these wood is therefore : 2309.07 grams
(pi/4) * Da² * L * d = 2309.07 grams2309.07 grams
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
But, to be able to hit hard (with one or two hands) a good grip is essential.
It is necessary to reshape the branch of birch or cedar of 1 meter long, in order to obtain a diameter Df included between 30 to 50 mm on a part of its length, according to the manufacturers of handles of sleghammer and knocker felling axe.
("Cylindrical grasp" case on the schematic below).
(https://www.bloghoptoys.fr/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/1955-MayOCRBatch-30.jpg)
(https://www.cchst.ca/images/oshanswers/Ergo031.gif)
Personally, I am 1.75 meters tall, and in the case of cylindrical tool handles, the diameter Df = 35 millimeter suits me best.
The blunt objects carried and used by the attackers were not perfect cylinders, but had a part reshaped to have the diameter Df = appromatively about 35 millimeters, allowing a good grip.
As a result, in the framework of my theory TOKEB it is rational to estimate that :
the blunt objects (big stick, baton, club...) used by the attackers had a weight of 2 kilograms.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Let's compare the blunt objects carried and used by the attackers : length 100 cm and weight = 2 kiloggrams
with a PPSh-41 with its 35-round magazine: length 84 cm and weight = 4.3 kilograms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPSh-41
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/PPSh-41_from_soviet.jpg/600px-PPSh-41_from_soviet.jpg)
The big stick shots are silent, which allows, at least at the beginning, to fully play the treachery and the surprise to the advantage of the attackers.
On the contrary, at the first shot heard, and if it is not mistaken for the sound of a firecracker announcing joyful festivities,
the deadly situation becomes clear and the merciless fight starts instantly.
(And then possibility for the hikers to organize instanly their counter attack).
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
But the great advantage of these reshaped "piece of wood" is that it will go unnoticed during an unannounced check by the Soviet police or by the KGB, while this is not the case for a PPSh-41 or for any other firearm.
Fireweapons and ammunition were strictly prohibited in USSR except for the hunters who were, themselves, tightly supervised.
Dmitry Kireev carried out his own reconstruction of a possible method of torture of krivonishenko by the means of fire.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/KP-3-forum.jpg)
Dear Jean Daniel Reuss:
I fully agree with you in the above. It is very good reasoning. It is very likely that Krivonishenko was indeed tortured.
Why was he tortured? Perhaps it was to find out where the others had fled.
Remember, the attackers must have chased the students out from their tent in order to let the cold do the "job" so that it would look like an accident. However, because of a sudden rise of temperature that failed. Therefore the attackers had to hunt down those who had fled. It would be natural for the killing squad to torture the first students they caught, to force them to say where the others were hiding. That is a probable reason for the use of torture.
Reply #22
.................................
Do you mean they had to travel by train or by bus with their weapons ? Coming from some city ?
...........................
You may not have realised that another side benefit of a "blunt object" is that you do not need to transport it: you make it almost immediately on the spot.
With birch trees nearby you just need to choose one with a diameter of between 8cm and 11cm, (see Reply #21).
For example, this one was photographed by the Unknown Expedition near the Cedar (photo N° 70).
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Dyatlov-pass-cedar-5.jpg)
With a small axe, anyone of average skill can make an excellent "blunt object", big stick, club,... (good grip - 1 meter long - 2 kg) in 10 minutes (or say 30 minutes if he is clumsy) with which you can fracture all the human skulls that you want.
For bear skulls which are thicker, I do not know...
The "blunt object" is a free weapon, which uses no ammunition and is throwable after use.
In case of control: nothing in the hands, nothing in the pockets, I am white as snow.
In 1959, when the internal difficulties caused by the ill-organised dismantling of the Gulag were multiplying, I think that neither the Soviet police nor the KGB were joking about firearms permits.
Besides, all regimes, especially if they are authoritarian, carefully monitor the various types of weapons that are dispersed in civil society, for fear of terrorist attacks, uprisings, coups d'état, revolts, etc.
Inform yourself :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control_in_Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control_in_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation
Overview of gun laws by country (in Russian)
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%B7%D0%BE%D1%80_%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%BE%D0%B1_%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%BF%D0%BE_%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BC
Reply #22
....................................
Having somebody taken out was easy and efficient in Soviet Union, it was a kind of national speciality, with long experience of improving methods and efficiency. They had the choice of start: treason, spying, sabotage, counter-revolutionary activity... then got forced confession and pronounced any convenient sentence.
...................
According to my TOKEC theory, the attackers-murderes, who fully succeeded in their mission of extermination, were in the vein of the enemies of the Soviet regime of the Khrushchevian period i.e. 1953-1964.
For the murderers, the difficulty was to fool the Soviet police and the KGB, by thwarting the weak and distant official protection of the hikers and by striking quickly.
The KGB reacted on 6 February 1953 by opening a homicide investigation. But it was too late; on 6 February the 9 hikers were all completely dead.
Reply #22
...........................
In Moscow suburbs maybe, but not in the Urals mountains which were a kind of Far East......
It is the contrary : it is much easier to operate illegally or to hide in the suburbs of big cities than in a nearly deserted area
where any unusual human presence is more easily noticed.
Moreover, these regions of the Urals were relatively better patrolled and surveilled than other parts of Siberia. Various mineral resources: gold, precious stones, rare metals and especially the proximity of Ivdellag.
In addition, if necessary, the Soviet authorities hired hunters from certain Mansi tribes, such as the Kurikov, who were able to identify, and possibly follow, new tracks that appeared on the snow.
Reply #26
Very interesting. It made me wonder if the Dyatlov group broke off tree branches to protect themselves also. Think I read somewhere that Igor was found holding a birch branch.
Beware! To facilitate the debate, the explanatory theories of the DPI can be classified into only two main categories.
- 1° -
For the many proponents of a death without voluntary human intervention, the branches of the cedar were cut or broken by the hikers.
In this case, it is arguable that it was done in order to feed the fire. However, some people point out that there were some dead branches that were already in or on the snow. These branches were certainly wet.
sarapuk : Reply #14
« One of the many mysteries of this Dyatlov Case. Why did they build a fire ! ? To keep warm ! ? To use it as protection from something ! ? To use it to light up the place ! ? To cook ! ? Why »
- 2° -
There are those who believe that the injuries found
https://dyatlovpass.com/death
https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries?filter_page=2&rbid=18461
are the result of fighting against attackers, in accordance with the expertise of Eduard Tumanov, Doctor of forensics at Pirogov Russian National Research Medical University.
In this case, the Den, the Fire, the missing branches of the Cedar could have been made, not by the hikers, but by the attackers.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
On the matter of Daytlov holding a birch branch, I have no idea.
« Above the snow were visible only his hands clenched into fists folded in front of his chest. The unbuttoned jacket is unusual for somebody that is freezing to death....»
I cannot discern anything obvious in these 5 photos.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Igor-Dyatlov-post-mortem-1.jpg) (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Igor-Dyatlov-post-mortem-2.jpg)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Igor-Dyatlov-post-mortem-3.jpg)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Igor-Dyatlov-post-mortem-4.jpg) (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Search-photo-3-012-by-Danie-lM_1.jpg)
Reply #27
............................
The poll/butt of this axe is already a "blunt object", no need to do any extra work:
..................................
Why go to complicated solutions when easy ones are available ?
...................................
(https://i.mycdn.me/i?r=AyH4iRPQ2q0otWIFepML2LxRa0VqxxOzz5aK5vBBgvPGLw&dpr=2)
On the contrary, it was necessary to do this extra work to not just use immediately available axes because:
1) - The injuries described (https://dyatlovpass.com/death) are not compatible with ordinary axe use because the iron of an axe is much harder and angular than a wooden blunt object whose contacting part has a rounded shape close to the sphere.
2) - Also, as I introduced in "wolverine (topic=390), Reply #59
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=390.msg17896#msg17896
the use of blunt objects made of birch wood wrapped in fabric padding is conceivable in a natural way ( especially if one thinks about the production of wolverine skin or fur).
3) - I also exclude the use of an axe handle alone, i.e. without the steel cutting part, because the weight of a handle alone is less than 1 kilogram and therefore not sufficient.
(In axes the steel part is generally heavier than the handle alone).
4) - One must therefore resign oneself to resorting to a complicated solution when no simpler one is available.
Reply #31
same photo not shown
On the contrary, it was necessary to do this extra work to not just use immediately available axes because:
The injuries described (https://dyatlovpass.com/death) are not compatible with ordinary axe use because the iron of an axe is much harder .....than a wooden blunt object whose contacting part has a rounded shape close to the sphere.
=================================================================
As you can see by yourself on the photo, the butt of this axe from Vizhay area is not "angular" at all and has a "round shape close to the sphere". It is in front of your eyes on the photo. We have to relate the eyes with the words.
1) •••
Error ! : You seem to be unaware of the complexity of the mechanics of impacts, especially in the cases where it is necessary to take into account both physical and anatomical aspects.
For its geometric shape is only one part of the characteristics of a "blunt object".
With the same energy and the same shape, the hardness parameter of the object which is the cause of the impact must not be forgotten.
In other words, from the point of view of the damage that can be detected at an autopsy, the hardness of the material of the object that strikes is an essential parameter.
We know the commonly accepted values of Brinell hardness.
Pinus sibirica = 2.0 ; Birch = 2.6
(Not wrapped in cushioning material)
Steel for striking tools such as axes or hammers = 650 to 700
(The axes in use in 1959 in the Urals came from Soviet metallurgy, which had nothing to envy to Western metallurgy).
But I would understand that these few theoretical hints to the science of shocks, which constitutes a huge body of knowledge that is still imperfectly known and in the process of being developed at present, do not seem very convincing to you.
2) •••
I am just reading that the non-lethal defence weapon "Flash Ball LBD 40x46" sends out a spherical rubber bullet: diameter=40 mm; weight=41,8 g; speed=331 km/h which corresponds to a kinetic energy of 176.684 joules.
In your opinion, what would happen if you substituted the rubber bullet with a spherical steel bullet of the same diameter 40 mm (therefore necessarily hollow) and of the same energy 176.7 joules ?
3) •••
These vague theoretical considerations can be advantageously replaced by some practical trials.
Take a wooden mallet and then a steel hammer (same shape, same weight) and strike objects that could represent human tissue (since there are no death row inmates for us).
You will notice a difference in the appearance of the impacts.
Or more simply, try knock in iron nails (mild steel) with a wooden mallet and then with a steel hammer.
You will also notice a difference in the easiness of doing this task.
4) •••
Modern trappers who do not want to damage the valuable skins of trapped volverines probably use rubber truncheons rather than even rounded iron bars.
Note.
Standard Brinell hardness is measured by the depth of the indentation left by a 23 mm diameter ball weighing 1 kg dropped from a height of 50 cm. This test allows . Brinell hardness should in principle be expressed in Newton/mm². (Further consideration would be needed to match Brinell measurements with the values of other hardness scales : Rockwell, Vickers... and in particular the broader Mohs scale).