September 25, 2021, 02:24:45 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Tent just simply collapsed, air escaped, ski poles gave in, no avalance  (Read 770 times)

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February 03, 2021, 02:15:11 AM
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Sunny


Very heavy tent JUST SIMPLY COLLAPSED. That's it, no other mysteries. There were NO AVALANCE. The bamboo ski poles that were suppose to keep very, VERY heavy tent up and liveable, gave in, making the tent collapse on top of them, in hevy snow fall, blissard, icy snow piling on top of the tent, and making the tent even more heavier. Strong blizzard that made the tent shake or move a bit loosened the ropes. The ropes that were tied to the sticks and skies gave in, or they were loosely tied, or the sticks just gave in. Or the ropes were weak and broke.
This is very simple explanation.
The tent itself was made of two tents that were put togeher, and this needed some extra support to keep the middle of the roof  up. I have seen in other pictures them using ropes tied to trees to lift the roof top up from the middle. Now they didn't have that opportunity, or trees to tie the corners of the tent to keep it from collapsing, so they used skies and I suppose ski poles. it wasn't good enough.
After the tent collapsed, the group inside felt all the air escaped from inside, and maybe together with snow on top of the tent roof felt they were choking in lack of air. They perhaps tried first to open the door, untying the knots. I had this kind of tent long ago at 70's. But because the tent was down and had collapsed, finding the doorway, opening the knots one by one became difficult, and too slow in pitch darkness, maybe even impossible. Aren't the knots outside of the tnet, making it difficult to open from inside? I believe 2 knots had been opened from the bottom, unless I am wrong. The people inside started to pass away due lack of air. Or even if there were enough air, they or one of them panicked anyways. They maybe thought the door is too slow and difficult to open and they or just one of them became too hasty and cut the tent to get  air.
I have seen one picture that somebody drow about the collapsed tent. You see it if you google "Dyatlov tent" from Google picture search. It shows the other side of the tent was collapsed, and there was one broken ski pole, but that was cut intentionally(what ever that means)...
So somebody or more of them cut the tent and they all came out from tent. This led to another situations that we all know. The tent was badly ripped open, it was no use anymore, or at least not much. Maybe some paradoxical undressing already happened at this point, who knows, and that's why they didn't think they needed the boots and all clothes. But they became in a hurry to get a fire, maybe a fire to the stove. And for that they needed wood. They didn't have any wood with them, because they hadn't planned to use the stove that night, The "grade 3" certification that they wanted demanded them to sleep in cold some nights without stove ( correct if I'm wrong). So they weren't planning or prepared to use the stove that night, otherwise they would have put the tent near the forest to get wood. So they had to leave the tent, maybe not permanently but to get wood for the stove, or to find a snow cave, to get away from horrible blizzard and windy mountain.
And then part of them died in hypothermia, part fell to that deep hole and were crushed, and part tried to get back to the tent (maybe carrying some wood or not), or tried to get more clothes from tent, but weren't able anymore.
I might add one other thing. It is very poosible also that there were fist fight between the group later once they were in the forest. Maybe some got very angry to Dyatlov or those who cut the tent, or those who's resposibility it was to put the tent up properly...this is because there were bruises on their faces and fists...But who knows....
 

February 03, 2021, 02:16:27 AM
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Sunny


 

February 03, 2021, 08:52:30 AM
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eurocentric

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Welcome to the forum.

In order for the tent to collapse under an increasing weight of snow it would require them to be asleep and not notice the canvas sagging over their heads or they would attend to that risk. I don't think half of them would sleep part-dressed in an unheated tent, it risked death from hypothermia in such an exposed position.

If the tent collapsed under the weight of snow, in which case a panic over suffocation may explain cuts being made in order to breathe and to escape, then they would still make some effort to retrieve items vital to survival, in particular an axe to chop trees at the forest.

The broken ski pole, which appeared to have been partly cut and then broken, may have happened if someone needed to fell the tent quickly and the ropes were overly tight or frozen, so they gave it a kick.

Level 3 didn't require them to sleep in an unheated tent.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 09:02:12 AM by eurocentric »
 

February 03, 2021, 10:39:32 AM
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Missi


I can indeed follow you that people might get panicked in a collapsed tent in fear of suffocation. Yet this particular tent can't have collapsed completely. It makes no sense to put up the front part again and then leave without taking any of the stuff placed in the vicinity of the door. Once being cut there wouldn't be the need to untie the knots, the tent could just be cut again.
Putting into account that the front part of the tent obviously didn't collapse, there's no need to hurry to get out or to panic over suffocation for there is still enough air, especially oxygen in the tent left.

It's highly unlikely that there was paradoxical undressing before that point in the event. They were inside their tent. If there's still clothes to put on of blankets to get under, why would they get to the point that they'd undress paradoxical? Especially taking into account what eurocentric stated, that they couldn't have been awake or else they would have tended to a tent that was sagging under the weight of snow.

"Google dyatlov tent" is not that good a source. I really did, yet I'm all but sure which picture you could be referring to. Yes, there was an intentionally cut ski pole. What do you make of it? Or did you only mention it for identification of the picture you wanted to refer to?

The further your telling of the event goes, the more it seems to be guessing like "well, don't care, they somehow died". Your main point seems to be that there was nothing strange about it at all...
 

February 03, 2021, 05:21:52 PM
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Manti


I read on this forum a lot about "frozen ropes", icy buildup on the tent, or even the ropes being held by ski poles in the snow.

Sunny you will know as well as me, these are all impossible in that weather. Ropes don't freeze, water freezes but unless there's some theory that the ropes were wet, they couldn't be "frozen". As for icy buildup on the tent, that requires either rain that then freezes, or snow that falls on the tent and melts. We know how cold it was, well below freezing even inside the tent, so snow wouldn't melt on the tent, far from it.

Lastly I cannot imagine a ski pole just pierced into the snow having any hold at all to hold a rope. We know how soft snow is. Now, a ski pole in ice, of course that would work, but only if it froze into ice. Otherwise how do you put it into the ice? Ice would crack and again that leads to no hold at all.


Now, don't assume that I am a believer in the theory that the tent was staged there, but I really don't see how this type of tent could be supported by ropes in a snowy field. And yes, modern tents have been successfully used there, these have stiff plastic rings within that hold the tent up and don't require ropes.

This is a very easy experiment for everyone to do, just put a stick into snow and see how much force is required to move it.. almost none. On the contrary try to put that stick in ice. You will find it's impossible except if you sharpen the stick and hammer it in... But they wouldn't do that to their ski poles.


 

February 03, 2021, 08:20:31 PM
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KFinn


I read on this forum a lot about "frozen ropes", icy buildup on the tent, or even the ropes being held by ski poles in the snow.

Sunny you will know as well as me, these are all impossible in that weather. Ropes don't freeze, water freezes but unless there's some theory that the ropes were wet, they couldn't be "frozen". As for icy buildup on the tent, that requires either rain that then freezes, or snow that falls on the tent and melts. We know how cold it was, well below freezing even inside the tent, so snow wouldn't melt on the tent, far from it.

Lastly I cannot imagine a ski pole just pierced into the snow having any hold at all to hold a rope. We know how soft snow is. Now, a ski pole in ice, of course that would work, but only if it froze into ice. Otherwise how do you put it into the ice? Ice would crack and again that leads to no hold at all.


Now, don't assume that I am a believer in the theory that the tent was staged there, but I really don't see how this type of tent could be supported by ropes in a snowy field. And yes, modern tents have been successfully used there, these have stiff plastic rings within that hold the tent up and don't require ropes.

This is a very easy experiment for everyone to do, just put a stick into snow and see how much force is required to move it.. almost none. On the contrary try to put that stick in ice. You will find it's impossible except if you sharpen the stick and hammer it in... But they wouldn't do that to their ski poles.

It would seem they had done it before...

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Igor-Dyatlov-55.jpg
-Ren
 

February 04, 2021, 06:35:35 AM
Reply #6
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Missi


It's a matter of force and their direction. At least as far as I (as a non-physician) see the case on hand.

The ski poles and skis are not required to hold the ropes. There's no force pulling them to either side (at least not a resulting force). There's a pulling to left and right almost equally. The resulting force is going down. Some inequalities in the forces pulling to the sides can be overcome by having the skis inclined a little (that's how I deal with the front poles of my tent). The hold is managed by the nails(?) in the ground. The skis only divert the force like a pulley.

Thanks a lot for the picture! I've wondered, how they managed without trees, myself.
 

February 06, 2021, 05:16:20 PM
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Manti


Hm ok, that photo proves my intuition wrong.

The tent there also seems to be in an avalanche risk area so it also changes my perception about how risk avoidant they were
 

February 10, 2021, 08:54:11 AM
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Tony


I have been in a tent that has collapsed due to snow accumulation. It was no big deal. It happened when I was younger on a scouting trip. We were asleep and my friend woke me up in the middle of the night. The middle part of the tent had completely collapsed and the ends only partially (I was on the end). I remember the ceiling of the tent being just above my face when my friend woke me. I was more annoyed at having to get out of the tent and remove snow than I was that it had collapsed.

If their tent had collapsed due to a accumulation of snow, it would have been nothing to them - especially for hikers of their experience. They would have almost certainly been aware of it. We were in a cheap nylon tent - theirs was made of heavy canvas and would have taken a lot of snow.

All this assuming that there was heavy snowfall that night, which we don't know.
"If there exists a fact which can only be thought of as sinister. A fact which can only point to some sinister underpinning, you will never be able to think up all the non-sinister, perfectly valid explanations for that fact."
- Josiah Thomson
 

February 10, 2021, 10:26:31 AM
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Missi


Hm ok, that photo proves my intuition wrong.

The tent there also seems to be in an avalanche risk area so it also changes my perception about how risk avoidant they were

I'm not sure, you can judge the area displayed in that photo as avalanche risk area. You can't know by one photo the complete layout and then, yes, there might be a general avalanche risk in that area. But even in the Alpes, where there's often avalanches, the people got used to the risk, observed and found, there are parts in a general risk area that are safe. You can't say whether the part the tent is placed is one of those by looking at that one photo from one direction.

Thanks, Tony. I'm not quite sure if it might be a little different with a canvas tent. I feel those are a little heavy when closing in around you. But then it might only be the heat, when I work with them, because I use tents in summer...