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Dyatlov Pass Forum

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March 29, 2019, 06:53:11 PM
Reply #30
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Nordlander


Broad skis don't necessarily leave tracks. One of the investigators, I'm not sure which one, said that he thought people on skis could have swooped in on the hikers from the ice about the tent. They could have also worn snowshoes, but those aren't very fast. I grew up in the far north, and for winter orienteering they taught us tricks for disguising our tracks, including having spruce bows tied to boots/skis/snowshoes. It was just for fun, but the skills were obviously some residue of conflict between settlers and Indians over fishing and hunting rights. I think the main thing is that the attackers came back later to clean up the scene.

When a crime begins, it's really fast. If you've ever been mugged, you know it happens in an instant. Unfortunately I have been a couple of times since I am an American of a certain age. They swat or swipe things out of your hands or grab them. For instance, they want a wallet but don't get a watch since it's hidden in your cuff.  I think the assailants made them drop items that they saw while still preserving the element or surprise; some other items they didn't see since they were hidden, and it was night and they were on the move. I don't think the attackers were perfect--we're talking about criminals, after all.

So if we are looking for motive and opportunity, one of the Mansi noted that there were five "wild" Khanty near the pass. From a North American perspective, the Mansi are the Ojibwe, and the Khanty are the Sioux. Mansi got jobs as bounty hunters for the gulags whereas the Khanty resisted starting in the 30s. They were terribly oppressed, forced into collectivization, and criminals and dissidents moved into their territory away from the European borders. Plus their territory is mined, and their religion is based on rocks or "idols" in addition to worship of the bear. Then Soviet kids start criss-crossing their land since they couldn't travel abroad. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior, and a very similar even happened in 1933, a "collective sacrifice" involving 7 Soviet men who were killed with rope and sleds in retaliation for the Communist woman who visited a sacred island to try to convert them to Marxist-Leninism: http://asianethnology.org/downloads/ae/pdf/a1532.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0xbE6g4dcRIW_oNSI_wME59F0vUYN39kpBJnXm3PkfNYelpsm7O5DoD6Y

So I think there were probably 3-5 attackers. There are three separate crime scenes, and it's unclear how everything happened except that the den group lived the longest. I think the attackers came back three separate times since they had hoped the hikers would die from the cold: the old gulag trick where you don't leave any traces, at least once you removed the ropes. (Most Khanty men and boys had been in the gulag at some point if they had been alive in the 30s). Maybe the last four were put in the den and a sled was run over the top of them after they were covered in snow? That is, after their bodies were laid in the stream face-down to disguise the ritual disfiguration. Those injuries are the hardest to account for as being results of conflict with other humans. And another question is whether the conflict with the Khanty was ongoing as late as 1959, but my impression is that there was a low-level ongoing war between the Soviets and the Ostyuks. There are still problems with the Manpupner rocks and the Komi people, after all: access is going to be shut off because tourists are climbing these "idols" and taking samples of them in spite of the two guards from that tribe who guard the site.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2019, 07:25:32 PM by Nordlander »
 

March 30, 2019, 02:51:20 AM
Reply #31
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NkZ


Thank you for this very interesting document!
There are (as far as i have counted) 3 mansi witness who mention the "wild five": Gorbushin -that Kurikov told him so, Kurikov -but to say he didn't say it, and another one i don't find anymore. The more i read the Mansi witness the more they are suspicious in downplaying their knowledge of the region ... They also seem to be the only ones who cannot come with a clue of how the tourists could have died...
So maybe there was a coverup to prevent a new revolt" by native nations that could bring attention to an area full of industrial and military "secrets" -and conveniently drive away from it potential spies. Parents of the deceased provided the arguments: lack of proper equipment and safety procedures -> let's fire the people in charge , bad decisions by Dyatlov to stay in a place full of "unknown compelling forces" -> RIP.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 06:12:23 AM by NkZ »
 

March 30, 2019, 07:32:41 AM
Reply #32
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Nigel Evans


A lot is made of Semyon's autopsy report that he wore two hats :-"On the examination table there is a male body, clothed as follows: on the head there is a black fur winter cap with ear flaps decorated with black fur and a red woollen ski cap with three light stripes."

However that is not how he was found :-

 


So presumably they found these hats nearby and put them on his head? So we'll never know who was wearing them in the den?
 

March 30, 2019, 02:16:55 PM
Reply #33
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Broad skis don't necessarily leave tracks. One of the investigators, I'm not sure which one, said that he thought people on skis could have swooped in on the hikers from the ice about the tent. They could have also worn snowshoes, but those aren't very fast. I grew up in the far north, and for winter orienteering they taught us tricks for disguising our tracks, including having spruce bows tied to boots/skis/snowshoes. It was just for fun, but the skills were obviously some residue of conflict between settlers and Indians over fishing and hunting rights. I think the main thing is that the attackers came back later to clean up the scene.

When a crime begins, it's really fast. If you've ever been mugged, you know it happens in an instant. Unfortunately I have been a couple of times since I am an American of a certain age. They swat or swipe things out of your hands or grab them. For instance, they want a wallet but don't get a watch since it's hidden in your cuff.  I think the assailants made them drop items that they saw while still preserving the element or surprise; some other items they didn't see since they were hidden, and it was night and they were on the move. I don't think the attackers were perfect--we're talking about criminals, after all.

So if we are looking for motive and opportunity, one of the Mansi noted that there were five "wild" Khanty near the pass. From a North American perspective, the Mansi are the Ojibwe, and the Khanty are the Sioux. Mansi got jobs as bounty hunters for the gulags whereas the Khanty resisted starting in the 30s. They were terribly oppressed, forced into collectivization, and criminals and dissidents moved into their territory away from the European borders. Plus their territory is mined, and their religion is based on rocks or "idols" in addition to worship of the bear. Then Soviet kids start criss-crossing their land since they couldn't travel abroad. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior, and a very similar even happened in 1933, a "collective sacrifice" involving 7 Soviet men who were killed with rope and sleds in retaliation for the Communist woman who visited a sacred island to try to convert them to Marxist-Leninism: http://asianethnology.org/downloads/ae/pdf/a1532.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0xbE6g4dcRIW_oNSI_wME59F0vUYN39kpBJnXm3PkfNYelpsm7O5DoD6Y

So I think there were probably 3-5 attackers. There are three separate crime scenes, and it's unclear how everything happened except that the den group lived the longest. I think the attackers came back three separate times since they had hoped the hikers would die from the cold: the old gulag trick where you don't leave any traces, at least once you removed the ropes. (Most Khanty men and boys had been in the gulag at some point if they had been alive in the 30s). Maybe the last four were put in the den and a sled was run over the top of them after they were covered in snow? That is, after their bodies were laid in the stream face-down to disguise the ritual disfiguration. Those injuries are the hardest to account for as being results of conflict with other humans. And another question is whether the conflict with the Khanty was ongoing as late as 1959, but my impression is that there was a low-level ongoing war between the Soviets and the Ostyuks. There are still problems with the Manpupner rocks and the Komi people, after all: access is going to be shut off because tourists are climbing these "idols" and taking samples of them in spite of the two guards from that tribe who guard the site.


You say and I quote ;   ''I think the main thing is that the attackers came back later to clean up the scene.''

''When a crime begins, it's really fast. If you've ever been mugged, you know it happens in an instant.''

If any attackers came back to clean up the scene then they didnt do a very good job  ! ? And yes its true that many crimes are fast, in fact very fast. But just as many crimes can be slow, very slow.
DB
 

March 30, 2019, 02:32:20 PM
Reply #34
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
A lot is made of Semyon's autopsy report that he wore two hats :-"On the examination table there is a male body, clothed as follows: on the head there is a black fur winter cap with ear flaps decorated with black fur and a red woollen ski cap with three light stripes."

However that is not how he was found :-

 


So presumably they found these hats nearby and put them on his head? So we'll never know who was wearing them in the den?

Its a good point. Its a shame that the photos are not that clear. Obviously some people would be a bit distressed to see very up close detailed photos. But I suppose we have to take it that that is the best quality photos that were made, or certainly made for public consumption !  ?
DB
 

March 30, 2019, 03:19:29 PM
Reply #35
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Puchiko


You're not making any sense. These photos weren't meant for public consumption, they were made for the purposes of the investigation and only declassified in the nineties. The investigators could never have imagined that the Soviet regime would fall one day and the case files would be made public. They aren't intentionally low quality, it's simply a not very good Russian camera from the fifties combined with the fact that we're looking at a scan of the photograph (as opposed to an image developed from the camera film itself).
 

April 01, 2019, 12:00:47 PM
Reply #36
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
You're not making any sense. These photos weren't meant for public consumption, they were made for the purposes of the investigation and only declassified in the nineties. The investigators could never have imagined that the Soviet regime would fall one day and the case files would be made public. They aren't intentionally low quality, it's simply a not very good Russian camera from the fifties combined with the fact that we're looking at a scan of the photograph (as opposed to an image developed from the camera film itself).

Apologies, I worded it a bit awkwardly. I meant that the Photos that we have been allowed to see, we being the public, are presumably the best quality available to us. There may be other photos and they may be better quality but they are not meant for public consumption.
DB
 

April 01, 2019, 05:06:11 PM
Reply #37
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Ehtnisba


Broad skis don't necessarily leave tracks. One of the investigators, I'm not sure which one, said that he thought people on skis could have swooped in on the hikers from the ice about the tent. They could have also worn snowshoes, but those aren't very fast. I grew up in the far north, and for winter orienteering they taught us tricks for disguising our tracks, including having spruce bows tied to boots/skis/snowshoes. It was just for fun, but the skills were obviously some residue of conflict between settlers and Indians over fishing and hunting rights. I think the main thing is that the attackers came back later to clean up the scene.

When a crime begins, it's really fast. If you've ever been mugged, you know it happens in an instant. Unfortunately I have been a couple of times since I am an American of a certain age. They swat or swipe things out of your hands or grab them. For instance, they want a wallet but don't get a watch since it's hidden in your cuff.  I think the assailants made them drop items that they saw while still preserving the element or surprise; some other items they didn't see since they were hidden, and it was night and they were on the move. I don't think the attackers were perfect--we're talking about criminals, after all.

So if we are looking for motive and opportunity, one of the Mansi noted that there were five "wild" Khanty near the pass. From a North American perspective, the Mansi are the Ojibwe, and the Khanty are the Sioux. Mansi got jobs as bounty hunters for the gulags whereas the Khanty resisted starting in the 30s. They were terribly oppressed, forced into collectivization, and criminals and dissidents moved into their territory away from the European borders. Plus their territory is mined, and their religion is based on rocks or "idols" in addition to worship of the bear. Then Soviet kids start criss-crossing their land since they couldn't travel abroad. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior, and a very similar even happened in 1933, a "collective sacrifice" involving 7 Soviet men who were killed with rope and sleds in retaliation for the Communist woman who visited a sacred island to try to convert them to Marxist-Leninism: http://asianethnology.org/downloads/ae/pdf/a1532.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0xbE6g4dcRIW_oNSI_wME59F0vUYN39kpBJnXm3PkfNYelpsm7O5DoD6Y

So I think there were probably 3-5 attackers. There are three separate crime scenes, and it's unclear how everything happened except that the den group lived the longest. I think the attackers came back three separate times since they had hoped the hikers would die from the cold: the old gulag trick where you don't leave any traces, at least once you removed the ropes. (Most Khanty men and boys had been in the gulag at some point if they had been alive in the 30s). Maybe the last four were put in the den and a sled was run over the top of them after they were covered in snow? That is, after their bodies were laid in the stream face-down to disguise the ritual disfiguration. Those injuries are the hardest to account for as being results of conflict with other humans. And another question is whether the conflict with the Khanty was ongoing as late as 1959, but my impression is that there was a low-level ongoing war between the Soviets and the Ostyuks. There are still problems with the Manpupner rocks and the Komi people, after all: access is going to be shut off because tourists are climbing these "idols" and taking samples of them in spite of the two guards from that tribe who guard the site.

I am trying to find information about these said ritual disfigurations of the dead in khanty culture, but nothing like this appears in google. All i can find is the ritual of the bear. Could you please send me links to a respectful source stating this information , could be in russian too ?
 

April 01, 2019, 05:57:33 PM
Reply #38
Offline

Ehtnisba


A lot is made of Semyon's autopsy report that he wore two hats :-"On the examination table there is a male body, clothed as follows: on the head there is a black fur winter cap with ear flaps decorated with black fur and a red woollen ski cap with three light stripes."

However that is not how he was found :-

 


So presumably they found these hats nearby and put them on his head? So we'll never know who was wearing them in the den?

Good observation. Indeed he has no hat at all  . But I don't see any hats nearby too,and the stream seems running too fast to be possible of hats to stay there seperately from the body .. Somebody had put two random hats on the head of Zolototarev, but why?
Also I am still questioning why on this photo Kolevatov is obviously without eyes, but in his autopsy is written that eyeballs are preset ???? And we have no phots of him in the morgue. .. None of Tibo too,and in his autopsy eyes are not mentioned at all, but we see him in a black plastic bag that his eyes are alright,closed and he is the only one with whole face. Is it possible they switched Kolevatov and Tibo in the morgue by mistake ? And to be that Kolevatov is the one with fractured skull and Tibo with neck wound eyeballs present.. ... What a mess!
 

April 01, 2019, 06:24:00 PM
Reply #39
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CyberShell


This is something that has been bugging me for quite some time. But, where are the pictures of Alexander and Nikolai in the morgue like is it lost or something?
 

April 02, 2019, 05:10:41 AM
Reply #40
Offline

Ehtnisba


This is something that has been bugging me for quite some time. But, where are the pictures of Alexander and Nikolai in the morgue like is it lost or something?

We have only one photo of Dubinina and Zolotarev and somewhere I read that when the said photo of Luda emerged in internet the living relatives of her were quite upset. So maybe the photos of Tibo and Kolevatov were too gruesome after thawing them in morgue and there are still living relatives who have opposed sreading their photos in the net. As far as I know Kolevatov sister is still alive .
 

April 02, 2019, 11:00:58 AM
Reply #41

Clacon

Guest
Ya - this "redressing" of the corpses is confusing things badly. Now it calls into question the taking of the clothes of the already deceased by the living.
It makes it even harder to establish a timeline of events.

Ehtnisba - this makes sense about the photos and respecting the family. Do you think there morgue pictures of Thibo and Kolevatov exist and simply have not been released???

The eyeball question is confounding - perhaps you're right and they did mix up the bodies? Its interesting to note that Nicolay's one side is in worse shape than the other; note the eyeball is depressed inside the skull, while the other has the eyelid still - this confirms the fact that the water sped up the decomposition (as I'm assuming the force of the flowing water impacted that side of his face first):

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dubinina-Thibeaux-Brignolle-post-mortem-1.jpg

Here is my VERY embarrassing sketch (try not to laugh):


 







Nigel - what do you think?? I know you thought perhaps Thibo's head was at Semyon and Kolevatov's feet in the ravine. Does my pic make sense??
 

April 03, 2019, 03:13:30 AM
Reply #42
Offline

Nigel Evans


Ya - this "redressing" of the corpses is confusing things badly. Now it calls into question the taking of the clothes of the already deceased by the living.
It makes it even harder to establish a timeline of events.

Ehtnisba - this makes sense about the photos and respecting the family. Do you think there morgue pictures of Thibo and Kolevatov exist and simply have not been released???

The eyeball question is confounding - perhaps you're right and they did mix up the bodies? Its interesting to note that Nicolay's one side is in worse shape than the other; note the eyeball is depressed inside the skull, while the other has the eyelid still - this confirms the fact that the water sped up the decomposition (as I'm assuming the force of the flowing water impacted that side of his face first):

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dubinina-Thibeaux-Brignolle-post-mortem-1.jpg

Here is my VERY embarrassing sketch (try not to laugh):


 







Nigel - what do you think?? I know you thought perhaps Thibo's head was at Semyon and Kolevatov's feet in the ravine. Does my pic make sense??
Yes I don't agree with your orientation of Nicolai wrt Semyon?
 

April 03, 2019, 07:27:32 AM
Reply #43
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Ehtnisba


Hmm now when seeing Tibo in the black bag and position of his hand I think than Nigel has mistaken his position. If his hand is on his chest that means that in the stream his head is somewhere under the water but he is lying on his back in the same orientation as Zolotaryov and Kolevatov....
WAB's explanation of mechanical damage from thawed snow and water on the soft parts of faces makes sense . It is actually the first theory about the missing eyes of rav 4 that I can say sounds true,,,cause all others about rodents and bacteria are let's say too far fetched and unprofessional .
 

April 03, 2019, 07:57:24 AM
Reply #44
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Nigel Evans


Hmm now when seeing Tibo in the black bag and position of his hand I think than Nigel has mistaken his position. If his hand is on his chest that means that in the stream his head is somewhere under the water but he is lying on his back in the same orientation as Zolotaryov and Kolevatov....
WAB's explanation of mechanical damage from thawed snow and water on the soft parts of faces makes sense . It is actually the first theory about the missing eyes of rav 4 that I can say sounds true,,,cause all others about rodents and bacteria are let's say too far fetched and unprofessional .


Isn't Nicolai's head underwater either way?


Lyudmila lost part of the left side of her face, lips as well as eyes and tongue. That's a lot of mechanical damage which the others don't demonstrate. She got special attention one way or another.
 

April 03, 2019, 09:10:27 AM
Reply #45
Offline

Ehtnisba


Hmm now when seeing Tibo in the black bag and position of his hand I think than Nigel has mistaken his position. If his hand is on his chest that means that in the stream his head is somewhere under the water but he is lying on his back in the same orientation as Zolotaryov and Kolevatov....
WAB's explanation of mechanical damage from thawed snow and water on the soft parts of faces makes sense . It is actually the first theory about the missing eyes of rav 4 that I can say sounds true,,,cause all others about rodents and bacteria are let's say too far fetched and unprofessional .


Isn't Nicolai's head underwater either way?


Lyudmila lost part of the left side of her face, lips as well as eyes and tongue. That's a lot of mechanical damage which the others don't demonstrate. She got special attention one way or another.

Well yes it is actually , you are right. His face is under water both ways...Even fully under water ompared to Zolotryov and Kolevatov,,,so Tibo has to have worse mechanical damage on his eyes and soft tissues compared to other 2,, so rav 4 face damages are really random , this makes them suspicious and mysterious
 

April 03, 2019, 09:16:16 AM
Reply #46
Offline

Nigel Evans


Hmm now when seeing Tibo in the black bag and position of his hand I think than Nigel has mistaken his position. If his hand is on his chest that means that in the stream his head is somewhere under the water but he is lying on his back in the same orientation as Zolotaryov and Kolevatov....
WAB's explanation of mechanical damage from thawed snow and water on the soft parts of faces makes sense . It is actually the first theory about the missing eyes of rav 4 that I can say sounds true,,,cause all others about rodents and bacteria are let's say too far fetched and unprofessional .


Isn't Nicolai's head underwater either way?


Lyudmila lost part of the left side of her face, lips as well as eyes and tongue. That's a lot of mechanical damage which the others don't demonstrate. She got special attention one way or another.

Well yes it is actually , you are right. His face is under water both ways...Even fully under water ompared to Zolotryov and Kolevatov,,,so Tibo has to have worse mechanical damage on his eyes and soft tissues compared to other 2,, so rav 4 face damages are really random , this makes them suspicious and mysterious
Cue cattle mutilations....  kewl1
 

April 03, 2019, 09:32:16 AM
Reply #47
Offline

Ehtnisba


well,,, yeah,,,but honestly I don't believe there is a connection with cattle mutilations
 

April 03, 2019, 09:50:35 AM
Reply #48
Offline

Nigel Evans


well,,, yeah,,,but honestly I don't believe there is a connection with cattle mutilations
But you think her injuries are mysterious?
 

April 03, 2019, 10:00:47 AM
Reply #49

Clacon

Guest
Its been stated before that she possibly had her mouth open, while the others didn't and that is why there is more damage to the inside of her mouth.

Also, she looks like she was lying directly in sort of a "mini" waterfall at a lower level parallel into the stream of said mini waterfall, while the others were perpendicular with back of heads facing the flow (all at what would appear to be "stream bed level" as opposed to Dubinina who is positioned at a lower level).
I think this has something to do with the mechanical damage WAB was talking about perhaps??

Then there is the possibility she was hit with such a force she somehow bit her own tongue off - but if that was the case her jaw and teeth would likely have been damaged right? She would have had to have yanked her own tongue out (floor muscles and all) with her own teeth as her jaw was closed down with such a force.
Seems unlikely though.
 

April 03, 2019, 10:05:31 AM
Reply #50
Offline

Nigel Evans


well,,, yeah,,,but honestly I don't believe there is a connection with cattle mutilations
But you think her injuries are mysterious?

Try reading https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2018/12/cattle-mutilations-getting-past-the-sacred-cows/


and count up how many times there's a corresponding link with the DPI case
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 03:04:56 AM by Nigel Evans »
 

April 03, 2019, 04:01:01 PM
Reply #51
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hmm now when seeing Tibo in the black bag and position of his hand I think than Nigel has mistaken his position. If his hand is on his chest that means that in the stream his head is somewhere under the water but he is lying on his back in the same orientation as Zolotaryov and Kolevatov....
WAB's explanation of mechanical damage from thawed snow and water on the soft parts of faces makes sense . It is actually the first theory about the missing eyes of rav 4 that I can say sounds true,,,cause all others about rodents and bacteria are let's say too far fetched and unprofessional .


Isn't Nicolai's head underwater either way?


Lyudmila lost part of the left side of her face, lips as well as eyes and tongue. That's a lot of mechanical damage which the others don't demonstrate. She got special attention one way or another.

Well yes it is actually , you are right. His face is under water both ways...Even fully under water ompared to Zolotryov and Kolevatov,,,so Tibo has to have worse mechanical damage on his eyes and soft tissues compared to other 2,, so rav 4 face damages are really random , this makes them suspicious and mysterious
Cue cattle mutilations....  kewl1

Cue My post on Animal and Cattle Mutilations
DB
 

April 03, 2019, 04:01:47 PM
Reply #52
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
well,,, yeah,,,but honestly I don't believe there is a connection with cattle mutilations

Why dont you believe that there is a connection ?
DB
 

April 04, 2019, 03:47:50 AM
Reply #53
Offline

Nigel Evans


A lot is made of Semyon's autopsy report that he wore two hats :-"On the examination table there is a male body, clothed as follows: on the head there is a black fur winter cap with ear flaps decorated with black fur and a red woollen ski cap with three light stripes."

However that is not how he was found :-

 


So presumably they found these hats nearby and put them on his head? So we'll never know who was wearing them in the den?
Just found this :-
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-341-343And two bodies lie embracing, there is nothing on their heads, not all hair is left on their heads, one of them is wearing a storm jacket, the same for the second, what else it's on them can only be established after lifting their bodies from the stream.
 

April 04, 2019, 11:50:52 AM
Reply #54
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
A lot is made of Semyon's autopsy report that he wore two hats :-"On the examination table there is a male body, clothed as follows: on the head there is a black fur winter cap with ear flaps decorated with black fur and a red woollen ski cap with three light stripes."

However that is not how he was found :-

 


So presumably they found these hats nearby and put them on his head? So we'll never know who was wearing them in the den?
Just found this :-
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-341-343And two bodies lie embracing, there is nothing on their heads, not all hair is left on their heads, one of them is wearing a storm jacket, the same for the second, what else it's on them can only be established after lifting their bodies from the stream.

Yes, there doesnt seem to be any head ware on the heads of those 2 bodies in the photo. And yet the Autopsy Report contradicts that. Could someone have mistakenly picked up head ware and put it on body ! ? Or may be there was head ware but it fell off and was put back on later  ! ?
DB
 

April 04, 2019, 01:56:19 PM
Reply #55
Offline

Nigel Evans


A lot is made of Semyon's autopsy report that he wore two hats :-"On the examination table there is a male body, clothed as follows: on the head there is a black fur winter cap with ear flaps decorated with black fur and a red woollen ski cap with three light stripes."

However that is not how he was found :-

 


So presumably they found these hats nearby and put them on his head? So we'll never know who was wearing them in the den?
Just found this :-
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-341-343And two bodies lie embracing, there is nothing on their heads, not all hair is left on their heads, one of them is wearing a storm jacket, the same for the second, what else it's on them can only be established after lifting their bodies from the stream.

Yes, there doesnt seem to be any head ware on the heads of those 2 bodies in the photo. And yet the Autopsy Report contradicts that. Could someone have mistakenly picked up head ware and put it on body ! ? Or may be there was head ware but it fell off and was put back on later  ! ?
They are in this photo, so probably someone put them on his head for transportation. :-

 

April 05, 2019, 12:09:31 AM
Reply #56
Offline

Nordlander


I think it's interesting that people have uncovered the possibility of re-dressing the corpses, even if it's only to put caps on them. It makes me wonder about our previous speculation the "mystery body" being Alex K before a coat was put on him and he was laid in the stream. Placing him in the stream would have helped disguise the facial wounds, but I have no idea why anyone would re-dress corpses. Even putting caps on them seems strange when Semyon and Alex K obviously have bare heads in the stream.

To Ehtnitsba's question about Khanty disfigurement rituals: look at pages 238 and 240 of the article link I posted. It isn't really about Khanty disfiguring Soviets after death but about murdering them in a "collective sacrifice." The incident in 1933 involved seven young Communist men. The description of the murder is a little vague, but ropes were used. The essay also has the first confirmation that the incident of the Soviet woman intruding on a Khanty sacred island actually existed. The murder of the men was in retaliation for that intrusion. Her name is given as Shnaider (no Christian name offered). It doesn't mention what happened to her, though. The rumors had been that she had had her tongue and eyes cut out and that she that she had been tied up and thrown in the lake (it was Lake Tum), but this article can't confirm any of that.
 

April 05, 2019, 04:54:44 AM
Reply #57
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Puchiko


I think it's interesting that people have uncovered the possibility of re-dressing the corpses, even if it's only to put caps on them. It makes me wonder about our previous speculation the "mystery body" being Alex K before a coat was put on him and he was laid in the stream. Placing him in the stream would have helped disguise the facial wounds, but I have no idea why anyone would re-dress corpses. Even putting caps on them seems strange when Semyon and Alex K obviously have bare heads in the stream.

Yes, it indeed seems very strange. If we consider the scenario that some part of the Soviet establishment was responsible for their deaths and staged the scene as a cover up: it doesn't make any sense. The military would have simply cleaned up the scene and disposed of the bodies and all their belongings (likely in an industrial incinerator), nine hikers disappearing would be strange but certainly not as suspicious as this mess. A non-state murderer might have some motivation to just hide the bodies under snow and hope they'll be found as late as possible, but that doesn't really correspond to the rest of the facts.

It's surprisingly difficult to put a coat on a corpse because of rigor mortis. I do think the newly discovered photo is not from the Dyatlov incident at all, but of course, I don't know and anything's possible with the case.

So why did they put the caps on? Absolutely no idea.
 

April 05, 2019, 05:39:59 AM
Reply #58
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Nigel Evans


Yes, it indeed seems very strange. If we consider the scenario that some part of the Soviet establishment was responsible for their deaths and staged the scene as a cover up: it doesn't make any sense. The military would have simply cleaned up the scene and disposed of the bodies and all their belongings (likely in an industrial incinerator), nine hikers disappearing would be strange but certainly not as suspicious as this mess.
Because they could tell from the contents of the tent that it was a party of nine, but they only had 5 bodies. The remaining four had been crushed under (say) one metre of snow and there was no sign of that.

A good narrative is that the Soviet authorities were there that night doing something that was top secret and this "top secret thing" might be connected to ordering Ivanov to stop investigating, stop talking about fire orbs and invent a coverup (or he knew what would happen). Then they HAD to find the remaining four to know that the secret was safe. So you then have a team of 30 men supplied by helicopter for three months approx half of them are KGB including officers of the rank of Captain and even Colonel. Anyone think it's strange that an officer of the rank of Colonel personally lead digging dead bodies out of the snow and evidence like a notebook has disappeared? It all fits, dead men don't talk, but they couldn't rely on the missing 4 to succumb to the winter. They had to find them, the expense was irrelevant. Once they had the last four bodies the case was shut down very quickly and the area closed.
 

April 05, 2019, 12:26:48 PM
Reply #59
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I think it's interesting that people have uncovered the possibility of re-dressing the corpses, even if it's only to put caps on them. It makes me wonder about our previous speculation the "mystery body" being Alex K before a coat was put on him and he was laid in the stream. Placing him in the stream would have helped disguise the facial wounds, but I have no idea why anyone would re-dress corpses. Even putting caps on them seems strange when Semyon and Alex K obviously have bare heads in the stream.

To Ehtnitsba's question about Khanty disfigurement rituals: look at pages 238 and 240 of the article link I posted. It isn't really about Khanty disfiguring Soviets after death but about murdering them in a "collective sacrifice." The incident in 1933 involved seven young Communist men. The description of the murder is a little vague, but ropes were used. The essay also has the first confirmation that the incident of the Soviet woman intruding on a Khanty sacred island actually existed. The murder of the men was in retaliation for that intrusion. Her name is given as Shnaider (no Christian name offered). It doesn't mention what happened to her, though. The rumors had been that she had had her tongue and eyes cut out and that she that she had been tied up and thrown in the lake (it was Lake Tum), but this article can't confirm any of that.

Interesting about the rumors that someone had their tongue and eyes cut out. Do you have any sources for these rumors ?
DB