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Dyatlov Pass Forum

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April 05, 2019, 12:30:53 PM
Reply #60
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Yes, it indeed seems very strange. If we consider the scenario that some part of the Soviet establishment was responsible for their deaths and staged the scene as a cover up: it doesn't make any sense. The military would have simply cleaned up the scene and disposed of the bodies and all their belongings (likely in an industrial incinerator), nine hikers disappearing would be strange but certainly not as suspicious as this mess.
Because they could tell from the contents of the tent that it was a party of nine, but they only had 5 bodies. The remaining four had been crushed under (say) one metre of snow and there was no sign of that.

A good narrative is that the Soviet authorities were there that night doing something that was top secret and this "top secret thing" might be connected to ordering Ivanov to stop investigating, stop talking about fire orbs and invent a coverup (or he knew what would happen). Then they HAD to find the remaining four to know that the secret was safe. So you then have a team of 30 men supplied by helicopter for three months approx half of them are KGB including officers of the rank of Captain and even Colonel. Anyone think it's strange that an officer of the rank of Colonel personally lead digging dead bodies out of the snow and evidence like a notebook has disappeared? It all fits, dead men don't talk, but they couldn't rely on the missing 4 to succumb to the winter. They had to find them, the expense was irrelevant. Once they had the last four bodies the case was shut down very quickly and the area closed.

You bring up this Top Secret thing but what if anything do you base this on ! ? There is certainly nothing reported or recorded that even remotely suggests any kind of Military involvement in the demise of the Dyatlov group.
DB
 

April 05, 2019, 12:46:28 PM
Reply #61
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Nigel Evans


Yes, it indeed seems very strange. If we consider the scenario that some part of the Soviet establishment was responsible for their deaths and staged the scene as a cover up: it doesn't make any sense. The military would have simply cleaned up the scene and disposed of the bodies and all their belongings (likely in an industrial incinerator), nine hikers disappearing would be strange but certainly not as suspicious as this mess.
Because they could tell from the contents of the tent that it was a party of nine, but they only had 5 bodies. The remaining four had been crushed under (say) one metre of snow and there was no sign of that.

A good narrative is that the Soviet authorities were there that night doing something that was top secret and this "top secret thing" might be connected to ordering Ivanov to stop investigating, stop talking about fire orbs and invent a coverup (or he knew what would happen). Then they HAD to find the remaining four to know that the secret was safe. So you then have a team of 30 men supplied by helicopter for three months approx half of them are KGB including officers of the rank of Captain and even Colonel. Anyone think it's strange that an officer of the rank of Colonel personally lead digging dead bodies out of the snow and evidence like a notebook has disappeared? It all fits, dead men don't talk, but they couldn't rely on the missing 4 to succumb to the winter. They had to find them, the expense was irrelevant. Once they had the last four bodies the case was shut down very quickly and the area closed.

You bring up this Top Secret thing but what if anything do you base this on ! ? There is certainly nothing reported or recorded that even remotely suggests any kind of Military involvement in the demise of the Dyatlov group.
Nothing remotely suggests it apart from a plausible narrative of rocket fuel and crushing by a tracked vehicle. Hmmm.
 

April 05, 2019, 02:57:31 PM
Reply #62
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Puchiko


Yes, it indeed seems very strange. If we consider the scenario that some part of the Soviet establishment was responsible for their deaths and staged the scene as a cover up: it doesn't make any sense. The military would have simply cleaned up the scene and disposed of the bodies and all their belongings (likely in an industrial incinerator), nine hikers disappearing would be strange but certainly not as suspicious as this mess.
Because they could tell from the contents of the tent that it was a party of nine, but they only had 5 bodies. The remaining four had been crushed under (say) one metre of snow and there was no sign of that.

A good narrative is that the Soviet authorities were there that night doing something that was top secret and this "top secret thing" might be connected to ordering Ivanov to stop investigating, stop talking about fire orbs and invent a coverup (or he knew what would happen). Then they HAD to find the remaining four to know that the secret was safe. So you then have a team of 30 men supplied by helicopter for three months approx half of them are KGB including officers of the rank of Captain and even Colonel. Anyone think it's strange that an officer of the rank of Colonel personally lead digging dead bodies out of the snow and evidence like a notebook has disappeared? It all fits, dead men don't talk, but they couldn't rely on the missing 4 to succumb to the winter. They had to find them, the expense was irrelevant. Once they had the last four bodies the case was shut down very quickly and the area closed.

You bring up this Top Secret thing but what if anything do you base this on ! ? There is certainly nothing reported or recorded that even remotely suggests any kind of Military involvement in the demise of the Dyatlov group.
Nothing remotely suggests it apart from a plausible narrative of rocket fuel and crushing by a tracked vehicle. Hmmm.

I'm sorry, but a tank in the middle of winter woods is not a plausible narrative :D ! For a moment I though you were just joking with your ravine death theory, but you're serious.
 

April 05, 2019, 03:24:02 PM
Reply #63
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Nigel Evans


Yes, it indeed seems very strange. If we consider the scenario that some part of the Soviet establishment was responsible for their deaths and staged the scene as a cover up: it doesn't make any sense. The military would have simply cleaned up the scene and disposed of the bodies and all their belongings (likely in an industrial incinerator), nine hikers disappearing would be strange but certainly not as suspicious as this mess.
Because they could tell from the contents of the tent that it was a party of nine, but they only had 5 bodies. The remaining four had been crushed under (say) one metre of snow and there was no sign of that.

A good narrative is that the Soviet authorities were there that night doing something that was top secret and this "top secret thing" might be connected to ordering Ivanov to stop investigating, stop talking about fire orbs and invent a coverup (or he knew what would happen). Then they HAD to find the remaining four to know that the secret was safe. So you then have a team of 30 men supplied by helicopter for three months approx half of them are KGB including officers of the rank of Captain and even Colonel. Anyone think it's strange that an officer of the rank of Colonel personally lead digging dead bodies out of the snow and evidence like a notebook has disappeared? It all fits, dead men don't talk, but they couldn't rely on the missing 4 to succumb to the winter. They had to find them, the expense was irrelevant. Once they had the last four bodies the case was shut down very quickly and the area closed.

You bring up this Top Secret thing but what if anything do you base this on ! ? There is certainly nothing reported or recorded that even remotely suggests any kind of Military involvement in the demise of the Dyatlov group.
Nothing remotely suggests it apart from a plausible narrative of rocket fuel and crushing by a tracked vehicle. Hmmm.

I'm sorry, but a tank in the middle of winter woods is not a plausible narrative :D ! For a moment I though you were just joking with your ravine death theory, but you're serious.

I've shown that the injury profile for the ravine four fits being crushed by something passing across the top of the den with a narrow width of say a foot/30cm.
They were using all terrain vehicles in Antarctica in the same period - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Antarctic_Expedition If the Russian military wanted to put vehicles on that mountain then it could happen, the Mil Mi-6 could lift 12 tonnes - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-6
Or it was Ivanov's fire orbs. There's not much else that fits. Except maybe a giant snowball... bigjoke
That's the narrative that fits the facts.

 

April 05, 2019, 06:31:30 PM
Reply #64
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Nordlander


Sarapuk: from what I remember, the rumor about the Soviet woman having her eyes and tongue removed by Khanty was in one or more of the Dyatlov books but without any citations. Just hearsay. If you look at the "Theories" section that Teddy has put together, you will see under the "Mansi" section that she mentions a rumor of a female Soviet geologist being killed for trespassing on sacred space but notes that there is no confirmation, which there wasn't. But now we know she wasn't a geologist but a Soviet representative of some sort reaching out to the more secluded Khanty.


I'm afriad I don't speak a Slavic language or even know the Cyrillic alphabet. But now that we know some more details--the event was in November of 1933 at Lake Tum and the woman's name was Shnaider--maybe we could find out some more information? Could the people who know Russian look around for any evidence of this incident? I have read Soviet newspapers and know they are less than transparent, but maybe something has been studied by contemporary historians or anthropologists? I have found that anthropologists are more interested in this ethnic group. I have access to a scholarly library and database through my job, so it you send me any details, I can look them up. I couldn't even find Lake Tum on an English map: I suspect it is very small, but it would be in the Khanty-Mansy Autonomous Region and have an island in it. I'm including a link about a holy Kanty lake an ongoing conflict with the tribe over people wanting to exploit the area's oil resources: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/17/reindeer-herder-oil-excavators-siberia

Someone made a really interesting comment that the Soviets wanted to cover up this incident since they didn't want ongoing enthnic conflict since there was so much nuclear activity, mining, and other functions of the industrial-military complex in this area. I suspect that is what happened. If the KGB was responsibile for the original incident, it would look much different and not as messy. If there was any re-dressing of corpses (and I can't imagine putting a coat on a corpse with rigor mortis) I suspect it was done to hide the facial injuries that would have shown obvious signs of some form of retribution.


NB: I am ordering a book on Khanty ceremonies through the library at work, and I will report back what I find.


The source about the "collective murder" notes the use of sleds, so I am wondering if hunters drove a sled over people tied up in den with snow piled on top of them so no extrernal marks would be apparent.
 

April 05, 2019, 07:24:08 PM
Reply #65
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Nordlander


My mistake: it was Lake Num-To, and it is still forbidden for women to visit the sacred island there. The trouble started when a Soviet fishing collective was fishing in the lake, which was also not permitted at time. I apolologize for the wall of text, but here is the relevant passage from the article. What do people think about the detail about the Soviet men being "throttled by long ropes around their necks"? Any similarities to the injuries of the Dyatlov group? (The author of the below is Art Leete, "Religious Reactions to Power in Siberia"):

At the end of the meeting, two shamans organized a reindeer sacrifice (pory) and fifteen animals were killed. After the ceremony the shamans announced that the spirits (lunkhs) approved the decisions of the meeting and ordered that nobody was allowed to cooperate with the Russians. Those who met the Russians’ demands would be punished (GMPICH, Loskutov 5, 1. 6; Golovnev 1995, 168; Balzer 1999a, 111).

There were several more similar sacrificial rituals held from 1932 to 1933. In 1933, members of the fishing cooperative from the Kazym culture base began to fish on Lake Num-To. The local people informed them that this was taboo.6 Russian agitbrigades were sent to the area (GAHMAO, Astrakhantseva 1934, 7–8; Balzer 1999a, 112–13). One of the delegations reached Num-To in November 1933. A member of this group, a female communist named Shnaider, went to the sacred island in the middle of the Lake Num-To, ignoring the local peoples’ beliefs concerning a taboo on women visiting this place. Her action deeply hurt the religious feelings of the local people.

Then the Soviet delegation moved to the tundra belt, and on 3 December they met the Khanty and Nenets. On 4 December members of the agitbrigade were taken prisoner by the local people (GAHMAO, Astrakhantseva 1934, 10; Balzer 1999a, 113–14). The Khanty and Nenets held a shamanic séance after which the shamans stated that gods had ordered them to offer the captured Russians as a sacrifice. The Russians were tied up and taken to a hill by reindeer sleds. They were throttled by long ropes tied around their necks. After the killings, the Khanty and Nenets sacrificed seven reindeer and held a traditional ceremony (Budarin 1968, 226; GAHMAO, Astrakhantseva 1934, p 12–13; GMPICH, Loskutov 1, p 24; Loskutov 9, p 8; Balzer 1999a, 114).
 

April 06, 2019, 12:58:03 PM
Reply #66
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Yes, it indeed seems very strange. If we consider the scenario that some part of the Soviet establishment was responsible for their deaths and staged the scene as a cover up: it doesn't make any sense. The military would have simply cleaned up the scene and disposed of the bodies and all their belongings (likely in an industrial incinerator), nine hikers disappearing would be strange but certainly not as suspicious as this mess.
Because they could tell from the contents of the tent that it was a party of nine, but they only had 5 bodies. The remaining four had been crushed under (say) one metre of snow and there was no sign of that.

A good narrative is that the Soviet authorities were there that night doing something that was top secret and this "top secret thing" might be connected to ordering Ivanov to stop investigating, stop talking about fire orbs and invent a coverup (or he knew what would happen). Then they HAD to find the remaining four to know that the secret was safe. So you then have a team of 30 men supplied by helicopter for three months approx half of them are KGB including officers of the rank of Captain and even Colonel. Anyone think it's strange that an officer of the rank of Colonel personally lead digging dead bodies out of the snow and evidence like a notebook has disappeared? It all fits, dead men don't talk, but they couldn't rely on the missing 4 to succumb to the winter. They had to find them, the expense was irrelevant. Once they had the last four bodies the case was shut down very quickly and the area closed.

You bring up this Top Secret thing but what if anything do you base this on ! ? There is certainly nothing reported or recorded that even remotely suggests any kind of Military involvement in the demise of the Dyatlov group.
Nothing remotely suggests it apart from a plausible narrative of rocket fuel and crushing by a tracked vehicle. Hmmm.

Try this link for examples  ;   http://www.florisbex.com/papers/jurix11.pdf   You are creating a story that does not explain the observed facts and is not supported by arguments based on evidence.
DB
 

April 06, 2019, 01:04:05 PM
Reply #67
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Yes, it indeed seems very strange. If we consider the scenario that some part of the Soviet establishment was responsible for their deaths and staged the scene as a cover up: it doesn't make any sense. The military would have simply cleaned up the scene and disposed of the bodies and all their belongings (likely in an industrial incinerator), nine hikers disappearing would be strange but certainly not as suspicious as this mess.
Because they could tell from the contents of the tent that it was a party of nine, but they only had 5 bodies. The remaining four had been crushed under (say) one metre of snow and there was no sign of that.

A good narrative is that the Soviet authorities were there that night doing something that was top secret and this "top secret thing" might be connected to ordering Ivanov to stop investigating, stop talking about fire orbs and invent a coverup (or he knew what would happen). Then they HAD to find the remaining four to know that the secret was safe. So you then have a team of 30 men supplied by helicopter for three months approx half of them are KGB including officers of the rank of Captain and even Colonel. Anyone think it's strange that an officer of the rank of Colonel personally lead digging dead bodies out of the snow and evidence like a notebook has disappeared? It all fits, dead men don't talk, but they couldn't rely on the missing 4 to succumb to the winter. They had to find them, the expense was irrelevant. Once they had the last four bodies the case was shut down very quickly and the area closed.

You bring up this Top Secret thing but what if anything do you base this on ! ? There is certainly nothing reported or recorded that even remotely suggests any kind of Military involvement in the demise of the Dyatlov group.
Nothing remotely suggests it apart from a plausible narrative of rocket fuel and crushing by a tracked vehicle. Hmmm.

I'm sorry, but a tank in the middle of winter woods is not a plausible narrative :D ! For a moment I though you were just joking with your ravine death theory, but you're serious.

I've shown that the injury profile for the ravine four fits being crushed by something passing across the top of the den with a narrow width of say a foot/30cm.
They were using all terrain vehicles in Antarctica in the same period - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Antarctic_Expedition If the Russian military wanted to put vehicles on that mountain then it could happen, the Mil Mi-6 could lift 12 tonnes - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-6
Or it was Ivanov's fire orbs. There's not much else that fits. Except maybe a giant snowball... bigjoke
That's the narrative that fits the facts.

Thanks for the links to heavy duty Military snow vehicles. If any of those vehicles had have been responsible for the deaths of the 4 at the so called Ravine then Iam very surprised that all the bodies were found all in one piece,and not crushed beyond recognition. And even a giant snowball wouldnt have been responsible. As for the back to the Fire Orbs, sounds like desperate measures, to find a theory.
DB
 

April 06, 2019, 01:16:50 PM
Reply #68
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Sarapuk: from what I remember, the rumor about the Soviet woman having her eyes and tongue removed by Khanty was in one or more of the Dyatlov books but without any citations. Just hearsay. If you look at the "Theories" section that Teddy has put together, you will see under the "Mansi" section that she mentions a rumor of a female Soviet geologist being killed for trespassing on sacred space but notes that there is no confirmation, which there wasn't. But now we know she wasn't a geologist but a Soviet representative of some sort reaching out to the more secluded Khanty.


I'm afriad I don't speak a Slavic language or even know the Cyrillic alphabet. But now that we know some more details--the event was in November of 1933 at Lake Tum and the woman's name was Shnaider--maybe we could find out some more information? Could the people who know Russian look around for any evidence of this incident? I have read Soviet newspapers and know they are less than transparent, but maybe something has been studied by contemporary historians or anthropologists? I have found that anthropologists are more interested in this ethnic group. I have access to a scholarly library and database through my job, so it you send me any details, I can look them up. I couldn't even find Lake Tum on an English map: I suspect it is very small, but it would be in the Khanty-Mansy Autonomous Region and have an island in it. I'm including a link about a holy Kanty lake an ongoing conflict with the tribe over people wanting to exploit the area's oil resources: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/17/reindeer-herder-oil-excavators-siberia

Someone made a really interesting comment that the Soviets wanted to cover up this incident since they didn't want ongoing enthnic conflict since there was so much nuclear activity, mining, and other functions of the industrial-military complex in this area. I suspect that is what happened. If the KGB was responsibile for the original incident, it would look much different and not as messy. If there was any re-dressing of corpses (and I can't imagine putting a coat on a corpse with rigor mortis) I suspect it was done to hide the facial injuries that would have shown obvious signs of some form of retribution.


NB: I am ordering a book on Khanty ceremonies through the library at work, and I will report back what I find.


The source about the "collective murder" notes the use of sleds, so I am wondering if hunters drove a sled over people tied up in den with snow piled on top of them so no extrernal marks would be apparent.

Ok. I know that there are excellent Museums and Libraries in Russia that deal with the Mansi and other Tribes, but it is almost certain that most of the stuff will be in the Russian language. Thats where we are at a disadvantage. I have a Russian friend with contacts in Yekaterinburg, known as Sverdlovsk during the USSR period. His brother also went to the same college as the Dyatlov Group. Everyone in that area seems to know something about the Dyatlov tragedy. And just as in the West they all have their own theories about what happened. No one theory stands out.
DB
 

April 06, 2019, 10:52:12 PM
Reply #69
Offline

Nordlander


I found some more details about a possible precedent, the Khanty collective sacrifice. We now have a name full name for the woman who transgressed on the sacred island: Polina Schneider (her name is transliterated differently). And she WAS murdered. There are apparently no Soviet records of her death, but anthropologists interviewed a lot of Khanty who remember the incident since it sparked a revolt--that and forcing Khanty children into Communist schools. Schneider was the head of the Ural Communist Party Regional Committee.

I haven't found any confirmation of the rumors that she was disfigured first. There is a Russian movie about her, called "Angels of Revolution." Here's a review of it, and there are obviously more in Russian. The leader of the group of Communists who were slaughtered was one Pyotr Astakhatsev, the head of an agit-brigade hunting Khanty who refused collectivization and had headed into the taiga. The collective sacrifice took place on Dec. 4, 1933, after the brigade was taken hostage. The numbers differ, but this source says there were 8 Russians (!). I tried to cut and paste the details about the murder of the Russians, but the source wouldn't let me. Here is the link, and the important information is on page 14. The Khanty shaman had the Russians tied to sleds and taken to the top of a hill. Then they were stripped naked and ropes were wrapped around their necks. All the tribesmen pulled the ropes so they would all be responsible. Astakhatsev's wife also claims that they were scalped. Their bodies were then placed on the ice of a lake.


The Dyatlov tragedy clearly differs in many way, but a few things leaped out at me: top of a hill, stripped, tied with ropes, use of sleds, strangled, placed in water or ice, disfigured. Usually the sacrifice reindeer during the solstices, but they carried out this deed under the direction of a shaman since they believed the Russians were going to make war. Plus the shaman told them the gods demanded recompense for the pollution of their sacred island by a woman (The contamination is said to come from menstruation). The trauma to the hyoid bones and the petechiae on Zina's eyelids all suggest possible strangulation. What do people think?

On a side note, Khanty leaders who signed on with the Soviets were given snowmobiles, but in the late 50s they were still probably the WWII ones on skis that were used to fight the Nazis, the Aerosanis.

https://books.google.com/books?id=jZedV50h5-kC&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=Pyotr+Astrakhantsev+Khanty&source=bl&ots=sW8XMR94CR&sig=ACfU3U1Ybb-Wn6HmsYo1Cet9_NHyN7UOuw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwitoZXJ3LrhAhWKneAKHYfYChoQ6AEwCXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Pyotr%20Astrakhantsev%20Khanty&f=false
 

April 08, 2019, 10:20:47 AM
Reply #70
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I found some more details about a possible precedent, the Khanty collective sacrifice. We now have a name full name for the woman who transgressed on the sacred island: Polina Schneider (her name is transliterated differently). And she WAS murdered. There are apparently no Soviet records of her death, but anthropologists interviewed a lot of Khanty who remember the incident since it sparked a revolt--that and forcing Khanty children into Communist schools. Schneider was the head of the Ural Communist Party Regional Committee.

I haven't found any confirmation of the rumors that she was disfigured first. There is a Russian movie about her, called "Angels of Revolution." Here's a review of it, and there are obviously more in Russian. The leader of the group of Communists who were slaughtered was one Pyotr Astakhatsev, the head of an agit-brigade hunting Khanty who refused collectivization and had headed into the taiga. The collective sacrifice took place on Dec. 4, 1933, after the brigade was taken hostage. The numbers differ, but this source says there were 8 Russians (!). I tried to cut and paste the details about the murder of the Russians, but the source wouldn't let me. Here is the link, and the important information is on page 14. The Khanty shaman had the Russians tied to sleds and taken to the top of a hill. Then they were stripped naked and ropes were wrapped around their necks. All the tribesmen pulled the ropes so they would all be responsible. Astakhatsev's wife also claims that they were scalped. Their bodies were then placed on the ice of a lake.


The Dyatlov tragedy clearly differs in many way, but a few things leaped out at me: top of a hill, stripped, tied with ropes, use of sleds, strangled, placed in water or ice, disfigured. Usually the sacrifice reindeer during the solstices, but they carried out this deed under the direction of a shaman since they believed the Russians were going to make war. Plus the shaman told them the gods demanded recompense for the pollution of their sacred island by a woman (The contamination is said to come from menstruation). The trauma to the hyoid bones and the petechiae on Zina's eyelids all suggest possible strangulation. What do people think?

On a side note, Khanty leaders who signed on with the Soviets were given snowmobiles, but in the late 50s they were still probably the WWII ones on skis that were used to fight the Nazis, the Aerosanis.

https://books.google.com/books?id=jZedV50h5-kC&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=Pyotr+Astrakhantsev+Khanty&source=bl&ots=sW8XMR94CR&sig=ACfU3U1Ybb-Wn6HmsYo1Cet9_NHyN7UOuw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwitoZXJ3LrhAhWKneAKHYfYChoQ6AEwCXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Pyotr%20Astrakhantsev%20Khanty&f=false


I have to say that I dont find anything in the Dyatlov Case that suggests RITUAL KILLINGS. There were 9 bodies. 2 of them appeared to have been mutilated. But not by another Human.
DB
 

April 08, 2019, 11:42:32 AM
Reply #71

Clacon

Guest
I think I might be with Sarapuk on this.

It would be the neatest scenario and I haven't ruled out murder altogether - however, the idea of it being a ritualistic killing means that one sacrifice shouldn't differ from another, right?

Plus there's nothing about exactly what occurred to Polina's eyes and tongue and how would this scenario explain the broken ribs of Dubinina and Semyon? They were supposed to be caused by a force no other human being could inflict??
 

April 08, 2019, 01:07:02 PM
Reply #72
Offline

Nigel Evans


They didn't die at the hands of people or animals.
Why?
Because of the investment the state made to find all of the bodies. Thirty men supplied by helicopter for 3 months, multiple probing of 1500 hectares of ground, officers up to the rank of Colonel personally lifting three month old corpses out of the mud. A team of KGB who always wore their pistols. Another team of young men all dressed in identical sheepskin jackets. Ivanov summoned to Moscow and told to invent a coverup (or else) and front it to the relatives. They even built a dam at the bottom of the ravine to ensure that the spring thaw didn't wash the bodies away.
It was all about finding the bodies, not solving a crime.

Once they had all the bodies they wrapped the whole thing up and confiscated evidence.

So the solution to the mystery begins by asking, why did they need to find all the bodies? Why was it so important? Perhaps there was something that had to remain a secret and that could only be guaranteed by finding all nine of them (and all their cameras perhaps?). Dead men tell no tales...
 

April 08, 2019, 01:42:20 PM
Reply #73
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
They didn't die at the hands of people or animals.
Why?
Because of the investment the state made to find all of the bodies. Thirty men supplied by helicopter for 3 months, multiple probing of 1500 hectares of ground, officers up to the rank of Colonel personally lifting three month old corpses out of the mud. A team of KGB who always wore their pistols. Another team of young men all dressed in identical sheepskin jackets. Ivanov summoned to Moscow and told to invent a coverup (or else) and front it to the relatives. They even built a dam at the bottom of the ravine to ensure that the spring thaw didn't wash the bodies away.
It was all about finding the bodies, not solving a crime.

Once they had all the bodies they wrapped the whole thing up and confiscated evidence.

So the solution to the mystery begins by asking, why did they need to find all the bodies? Why was it so important? Perhaps there was something that had to remain a secret and that could only be guaranteed by finding all nine of them (and all their cameras perhaps?). Dead men tell no tales...

Yes I tend to agree with your way of looking at this from the COVER UP point of view. I dont like Cover ups and Iam sure most of us dont, but we know it goes on even today in high places in Governments around the World, for whatever reasons. So as far as the Dyatlov Incident is concerned the question then becomes, why did the Government COVER IT UP ? And will the new investigation toe the same line ? If it was an accident, then accidents happen and no reason really for such a cover up. If it was an Electrical Event of nature then once again no reason for a cover up. So maybe it was was something unworldly  !  ?  PS just to clarify, Iam not suggesting that I believe it was a cover up , just that it may have been.
DB
 

April 08, 2019, 01:48:38 PM
Reply #74

Clacon

Guest
Okay but what if it had to be covered up so as not to further cause issues with the Native tribes? A political coverup?
 

April 08, 2019, 02:13:13 PM
Reply #75
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Okay but what if it had to be covered up so as not to further cause issues with the Native tribes? A political coverup?

I suppose that would depend on exactly what the EVENT was that caused the demise of the Dyatlov group. It wouldnt have been just the native tribes that had an interest it would have been all Russians or Soviets I suppose.
DB
 

April 08, 2019, 02:16:56 PM
Reply #76

Clacon

Guest
Do you think the Khanty could maybe have attacked the tent?
 

April 09, 2019, 04:28:26 AM
Reply #77
Offline

Nigel Evans


Iam not suggesting that I believe it was a cover up , just that it may have been.
One of the few concrete facts of the DPI is that both Ivanov and Okishev said in interviews that they were ordered to invent an accidental death coverup????
I'm a believer!!  read1
 

April 09, 2019, 05:19:04 AM
Reply #78
Offline

Ehtnisba


well,,, yeah,,,but honestly I don't believe there is a connection with cattle mutilations
But you think her injuries are mysterious?

They are to me,cause I am not a professional pathologist. I have only researched books written by criminal pathologists, watched information about experiments in body farms, how bodies decompose in different condition. And all I can say is that except for burning, explosions, and gang revenges with mutilations ,a corpse decomposes evenly under clothes and bare parts. So clothes on body don't slow down decomposition. In some cases they make it faster. And bodies in cold water don't miss eyes and tissues after 2 weeks (searchers state that the thaw had been begun for the last 10 days ,which means that all other time they were in frozen snow)
 I may post photos of bodies found in cold streams after longer periods. They are blue  , bloated, with maceration, but WHOLE .
So WABs explanation about mechanical damage from thawing snow and stream is the only one I find logical.
But as you said how come only Dubinina is worse  how come Tibo is much better than Zolotarev while he is underwater too? This makes them mysterious , everything we don't know for sure is a mystery. Which doesn't mean aliens had done it.
Ball lightening is mysterious too,but we don't blame aliens for it . We know it is electrical discharge but as a rare phenomenon it is not fully explained by science yet.
 

April 09, 2019, 05:25:50 AM
Reply #79
Offline

Ehtnisba


well,,, yeah,,,but honestly I don't believe there is a connection with cattle mutilations



Why dont you believe that there is a connection ?

Because cattle mutilations are with a very precise clear cut. Look at Zolotaryav morgue photo. Nothing but clear cuts,his eye sockets are completely rugged and messy, also his mouth. Same for Dubinina. Also cattle mutilations are reported with hole through the anus. We don't have this in the reports, except if it is a lie that their genitalia is absolutely fine .
 

April 09, 2019, 07:40:47 AM
Reply #80
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Nigel Evans


I don't think CM has anything to do with aliens. Imo it's electro magnetic excitation of the water and metals in the body including the iron in the blood perhaps in the microwave region. Probably the same energy that forms crop circles where microwaves are suspected (steamed stalks).  Lyudmila's facial damage is asymmetric compared to the others particularly Nicolai who is also facing upstream. He is in such a force of water that it is spurting out of his right sleeve, but no real signs of mechanical damage.
 

April 09, 2019, 01:35:35 PM
Reply #81
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Iam not suggesting that I believe it was a cover up , just that it may have been.
One of the few concrete facts of the DPI is that both Ivanov and Okishev said in interviews that they were ordered to invent an accidental death coverup????
I'm a believer!!  read1

How many interviews  ?  Any other sources to make this real good concrete ?
DB
 

April 09, 2019, 01:38:22 PM
Reply #82
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
well,,, yeah,,,but honestly I don't believe there is a connection with cattle mutilations
But you think her injuries are mysterious?

They are to me,cause I am not a professional pathologist. I have only researched books written by criminal pathologists, watched information about experiments in body farms, how bodies decompose in different condition. And all I can say is that except for burning, explosions, and gang revenges with mutilations ,a corpse decomposes evenly under clothes and bare parts. So clothes on body don't slow down decomposition. In some cases they make it faster. And bodies in cold water don't miss eyes and tissues after 2 weeks (searchers state that the thaw had been begun for the last 10 days ,which means that all other time they were in frozen snow)
 I may post photos of bodies found in cold streams after longer periods. They are blue  , bloated, with maceration, but WHOLE .
So WABs explanation about mechanical damage from thawing snow and stream is the only one I find logical.
But as you said how come only Dubinina is worse  how come Tibo is much better than Zolotarev while he is underwater too? This makes them mysterious , everything we don't know for sure is a mystery. Which doesn't mean aliens had done it.
Ball lightening is mysterious too,but we don't blame aliens for it . We know it is electrical discharge but as a rare phenomenon it is not fully explained by science yet.

Burns on clothes and some parts of bodies along with other damage to body tissues could suggest some kind of ELECTRICAL EVENT.
DB
 

April 09, 2019, 01:40:37 PM
Reply #83
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
well,,, yeah,,,but honestly I don't believe there is a connection with cattle mutilations



Why dont you believe that there is a connection ?

Because cattle mutilations are with a very precise clear cut. Look at Zolotaryav morgue photo. Nothing but clear cuts,his eye sockets are completely rugged and messy, also his mouth. Same for Dubinina. Also cattle mutilations are reported with hole through the anus. We don't have this in the reports, except if it is a lie that their genitalia is absolutely fine .

Cattle Mutations vary. Not all Cattle Mutations have damage to the ANUS.
DB
 

April 09, 2019, 01:44:18 PM
Reply #84
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I don't think CM has anything to do with aliens. Imo it's electro magnetic excitation of the water and metals in the body including the iron in the blood perhaps in the microwave region. Probably the same energy that forms crop circles where microwaves are suspected (steamed stalks).  Lyudmila's facial damage is asymmetric compared to the others particularly Nicolai who is also facing upstream. He is in such a force of water that it is spurting out of his right sleeve, but no real signs of mechanical damage.

Its certainly beginning to look like some type of ELECTRICAL EVENT. The question then would be ; What caused the Electrical Event  ?  So we cant really rule anything out.
DB
 

April 09, 2019, 02:20:58 PM
Reply #85
Offline

Nigel Evans


Iam not suggesting that I believe it was a cover up , just that it may have been.
One of the few concrete facts of the DPI is that both Ivanov and Okishev said in interviews that they were ordered to invent an accidental death coverup????
I'm a believer!!  read1

How many interviews  ?  Any other sources to make this real good concrete ?
2 men, 2 interviews?From the Shavarin Q&A, a lady named Galina? Has stated that "the competent authorities" came and confiscated a lot of material, radiograms, notebooks etc.
Okishev even named the Colonel who collected it all.
How much proof do you need?
 

April 09, 2019, 02:37:03 PM
Reply #86
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Iam not suggesting that I believe it was a cover up , just that it may have been.
One of the few concrete facts of the DPI is that both Ivanov and Okishev said in interviews that they were ordered to invent an accidental death coverup????
I'm a believer!!  read1

How many interviews  ?  Any other sources to make this real good concrete ?
2 men, 2 interviews?From the Shavarin Q&A, a lady named Galina? Has stated that "the competent authorities" came and confiscated a lot of material, radiograms, notebooks etc.
Okishev even named the Colonel who collected it all.
How much proof do you need?

Ok. As much proof as possible. This is the Dyatlov Mystery, one of the great mysteries.
DB
 

April 09, 2019, 08:29:36 PM
Reply #87
Offline

Ehtnisba


I found some more details about a possible precedent, the Khanty collective sacrifice. We now have a name full name for the woman who transgressed on the sacred island: Polina Schneider (her name is transliterated differently). And she WAS murdered. There are apparently no Soviet records of her death, but anthropologists interviewed a lot of Khanty who remember the incident since it sparked a revolt--that and forcing Khanty children into Communist schools. Schneider was the head of the Ural Communist Party Regional Committee.

I haven't found any confirmation of the rumors that she was disfigured first. There is a Russian movie about her, called "Angels of Revolution." Here's a review of it, and there are obviously more in Russian. The leader of the group of Communists who were slaughtered was one Pyotr Astakhatsev, the head of an agit-brigade hunting Khanty who refused collectivization and had headed into the taiga. The collective sacrifice took place on Dec. 4, 1933, after the brigade was taken hostage. The numbers differ, but this source says there were 8 Russians (!). I tried to cut and paste the details about the murder of the Russians, but the source wouldn't let me. Here is the link, and the important information is on page 14. The Khanty shaman had the Russians tied to sleds and taken to the top of a hill. Then they were stripped naked and ropes were wrapped around their necks. All the tribesmen pulled the ropes so they would all be responsible. Astakhatsev's wife also claims that they were scalped. Their bodies were then placed on the ice of a lake.


The Dyatlov tragedy clearly differs in many way, but a few things leaped out at me: top of a hill, stripped, tied with ropes, use of sleds, strangled, placed in water or ice, disfigured. Usually the sacrifice reindeer during the solstices, but they carried out this deed under the direction of a shaman since they believed the Russians were going to make war. Plus the shaman told them the gods demanded recompense for the pollution of their sacred island by a woman (The contamination is said to come from menstruation). The trauma to the hyoid bones and the petechiae on Zina's eyelids all suggest possible strangulation. What do people think?

On a side note, Khanty leaders who signed on with the Soviets were given snowmobiles, but in the late 50s they were still probably the WWII ones on skis that were used to fight the Nazis, the Aerosanis.

https://books.google.com/books?id=jZedV50h5-kC&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=Pyotr+Astrakhantsev+Khanty&source=bl&ots=sW8XMR94CR&sig=ACfU3U1Ybb-Wn6HmsYo1Cet9_NHyN7UOuw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwitoZXJ3LrhAhWKneAKHYfYChoQ6AEwCXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Pyotr%20Astrakhantsev%20Khanty&f=false

I can see a lot of sense in your comparison and all the mansi testimonies from the case files are so vague and absolutely suspicious to me...
 

April 09, 2019, 08:37:56 PM
Reply #88
Offline

Ehtnisba


It looks like electrical event, but then why Nigel would suggest that only finding the bodies was important? And why all the secrecy if it is a natural phenomenon?
If it was an electrical event then it seems like one intelligent and selective event...
 

April 09, 2019, 11:16:00 PM
Reply #89
Offline

Ehtnisba


Dragged with ropes - we have position of Dyatlov hands on his chest like he has been tied ,and the branch under his arm is stuck like this only if he has been dragged and the bush stuck on his armpit so he was left there.
Stripped - victims in 30s were stripped of their clothes. Only it is not mentioned fully stripped or partially like dyatlovs ,only from their outerwear.
Strangled - very suspicious mobility of the hyoid bone of Dubinina , strangely no mention about the condition of hyoid bones of other hikers. No info in the reports.
Placed in water after death - ravine 4 in the stream
Disfiguration - it is mentioned that killed russians were scalped ,and there are rumours the killed woman was with no eyes and tongues - but these are only rumors so..not conclusive ...
Use of sleds - may explain broken ribs . Broken skull of Tibo may be explained that while he was dragged with the sled (if is a dog sled, it is said that in these years some mansis were given snowmobiles) and his head hit a rock with high speed.

Of course the mystery with DP case is that all 9 participants have different injuries , really random. Like 9 different incidents have happened 😯😱 well, we may say that Zolotaryov and Dubinina have actually the same injuries and post mortem missing eyes.
As I have said many times, the more I look into this case, the more theories are emerging and none of them fit ALL the facts we know for sure. Every theory fits several things and not the others. This is because so much information is missing that we are dealing with probably even less than 50% of the evidences. Adding the doubt that the authorities might have falsified some documents, especially the most important - the autopsy reports- we are left blind until someone finally discloses that missing info. Like missing films from cameras, missing radiogram from 25.february (the date on which pilot Karpushin reported he saw 2 bodies in front of the tent ) , missing testimonies of mansi about fireballs, discrepancies in autopsies ( Zolotaryov has nothing on his head when found in the stream, then when placed on the autopsy tsble suddenly he has 2 hats, Kolevatov clearly has no eyes on the photo from the stream, then in the autopsy his eyeballs are described as present, clothes on Dubinina leg, jacket on Zolotaryov etc etc etc) . I can go on forever, it is an enigma, really!