May 23, 2022, 08:42:52 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Injuries, clothing and belongings to Dyatlov group  (Read 7035 times)

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May 07, 2020, 07:30:04 PM
Reply #30
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sparrow


 My computer has not been working very well lately so I have a lot I need to hurry up and get off my chest before it quits again. 

NEXT!  George and Yuri had frost bite on, not only their hands and feet but also their arms and legs according to their autopsies.  If they were stripped of their clothes after death, could they still get frost bite?  Can dead people get frostbite (This is a question because I do not know.)? If Lyuda had 0 to 1 pair of pants on also, wouldn't she  have gotten frostbite too?
And how about the overalls?  They had no burns or tears, so they were probably removed before death.     
 

May 08, 2020, 02:27:02 PM
Reply #31
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JohnnyNumber6


This is a really excellent graphic.  One of the challenges with DPI is the 'sprawl' of information.  This site does a great job of collecting all the sources of information, but there is still a huge amount to sort thru.  I think the creation of things like this to pull together the facts into easily digestible materials will be critical is solving the mystery.  I had previously spent an entire day pulling the info together about the clothes and injuries.  Now it is easily available for everyone!  My goal was to create something similar, but I could never produce a decent result.  Great Job!
 

December 25, 2020, 03:50:30 PM
Reply #32
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Monty


Still think this section is the most comprehensive - one thought; just noticed the quantity of the contents of Rustem's pockets. It wouldn't make for a comfy night with all that in your pockets? Also, the significance of the first deaths and subsequent removal of clothes. The contents of his pockets could have been useful to those that outlived him, but no scavenging took place. Can we draw any conclusions from that?

PS - did they have a shortage of gloves in 1950's Russia? Not a single mitten even on the well dressed inventories being worn, and only one pair in someone's pockets. Can't see any listed in the tent but they must be somewhere.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 04:19:16 PM by Monty »
 

December 26, 2020, 01:14:34 AM
Reply #33
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Nigel Evans


Still think this section is the most comprehensive - one thought; just noticed the quantity of the contents of Rustem's pockets. It wouldn't make for a comfy night with all that in your pockets? Also, the significance of the first deaths and subsequent removal of clothes. The contents of his pockets could have been useful to those that outlived him, but no scavenging took place. Can we draw any conclusions from that?

PS - did they have a shortage of gloves in 1950's Russia? Not a single mitten even on the well dressed inventories being worn, and only one pair in someone's pockets. Can't see any listed in the tent but they must be somewhere.


Rustem had one valenki on, one off so he could have just been outside perhaps to urinate.


The gloves are all listed here - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-233-257?rbid=17743


search for gloves or mittens.



 

December 26, 2020, 01:35:52 AM
Reply #34
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Monty


Would the normal routine be to dry them out or continue to wear them of an evening.
With Rustem's pocket contents, alot of the items may have been a help, however small. It just seemed alot compared to the inventory of the others.
 

December 26, 2020, 02:10:28 AM
Reply #35
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Nigel Evans


Would the normal routine be to dry them out or continue to wear them of an evening.
With Rustem's pocket contents, alot of the items may have been a help, however small. It just seemed alot compared to the inventory of the others.
Everything gives the impression of it being early evening to me, gloves aren't worn for finger dexterity to perform tasks. They'd probably wear them whilst sleeping.
 

December 27, 2020, 10:27:45 PM
Reply #36
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RidgeWatcher


Teddy,

Thank you so much for the visual diagrams of the Dyatllov Pass Tourists, I believe it's the first time I saw this, this evening. As you know I have always been focused on Semyon Zolotaryov for several reasons but something was very odd to me reading your extensive post tonight and this is it. Out of all the Dyatlov Pass Tourists none of them said to family and friends prior to the trip that they would be famous after the trip, except Semyon. Could this be a love affair of sorts but the "love" interest isn't anywhere on the mountain and wasn't "truthful", but somewhere else and may be have instigated or be an incentive for what happened on the mountain?

In trouser pockets:
- Onion
- Coins
- Hairbrush
- Ball of thread
- Folded newspaper
- Pieces of newspaper

When I read that Semyon had an onion in his pocket I thought he must have grabbed the onion from the tent just prior to slashing and dashing but then I thought to myself that after living in Alaska for all those years that I would have grabbed boots or a Jacket and in that order but an onion? An onion? And then it hit me hard, Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamozov and the HUGE symbolism of the "Onion" and it's connection to wickedness and then redemption:

The Onion Symbol Analysis

The Envelope and the Three Thousand Roubles
 
The onion is a symbol of redemption that helps both Grushenka and Alexei Fyodorovich to recognize the complexity of human character, which is neither strictly good nor entirely evil. Grushenka tells Alexei the parable of the onion, in which a wicked woman ruins her chance of being saved from hell by failing to remember an instance in which she unselfishly gave a beggar woman an onion. The woman’s guardian angel makes a wager with God: if the angel can take “that same onion” and pull the woman out of the lake of fire, she can go to heaven; but, if it breaks, she will remain in hell. The angel holds the onion out to the woman and beckons her to pull. She takes hold of it and nearly pulls herself out. However, when other sinners hold on to her, hoping to be pulled up with her, she kicks them away and tries to keep the onion for herself. With this, the onion breaks, and she falls back into the lake of fire.

Grushenka tells the tale of the onion to exemplify her own wickedness, though it ends up becoming an indication of her decency. She confesses that she promised Mikhail Osipovich Rakitin twenty-five roubles in exchange for bringing Alexei Fyodorovich to her residence, where she hoped to seduce and corrupt the young monk, in revenge for what she perceived as his self-righteous judgment of her. Alexei, in turn, allowed Rakitin to take him to Grushenka’s to be corrupted, due to his recent disillusionment over failing to witness a miracle after Zosima, the Elder’s death. After Grushenka learns about the elder’s death, she has a change of heart, prompted by her empathy for Alexei’s loss. In turn, Alexei is pleasantly surprised by her empathy and feels that the woman whom he had once considered “a wicked soul” is now “a loving soul” and “a true sister.” Grushenka’s empathy was “the onion” that Alexei needed in order to nourish his weak faith in the world and to restore the strength of his belief in goodness. Similarly, Alexei’s faith in Grushenka’s good nature is “the onion” that she needed in order to rescue her from her belief that she could never overcome her wickedness. With these simple acts of empathy, Alexei and Grushenka save each other from the hell of hopelessness and illustrate the complexity of human nature.

The Onion Quotes in The Brothers Karamazov

The The Brothers Karamazov quotes below all refer to the symbol of The Onion. For each quote, you can also see the other characters and themes related to it (each theme is indicated by its own dot and icon, like this one:  Faith vs. Reason Theme Icon ). Note: all page numbers and citation info for the quotes below refer to the Farrar, Straus and Giroux edition of The Brothers Karamazov published in 1990.
Part 2: Book 5, Chapter 4 Quotes
“In my opinion, Christ’s love for people is in its kind a miracle impossible on earth. True, he was God. But we are not gods. Let’s say that I, for example, am capable of profound suffering, but another man will never be able to know the degree of my suffering, because he is another and not me, and besides, a man is rarely willing to acknowledge someone else as a sufferer […] And why won’t he acknowledge it, do you think? Because I, for example, have a bad smell, or a foolish face, or once stepped on his foot […] Beggars, especially noble beggars, should never show themselves in the street; they should ask for alms through the newspapers. It’s still possible to love one’s neighbor abstractly, and even occasionally from a distance, but hardly ever up close.”

Related Characters: Ivan Fyodorovich Karamazov (speaker), Alexei “Alyosha” Fyodorovich Karamazov
Related Symbols: The Onion
Related Themes:  Faith vs. Reason Theme Icon   Morality and Modernization Theme Icon   Suffering Theme Icon
Page Number and Citation:  237 Cite this Quote

The onion has such strong symbolism in Dostoevsky's book The Brothers Karamozov which I have read and learned from, I was just wondering if there could be a connection and if that onion could have been placed in Semyon's pocket post-mortem?

For any Dostoevky Fans:




« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 10:34:48 PM by RidgeWatcher »
 

December 28, 2020, 06:02:02 PM
Reply #37
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Teddy,

Thank you so much for the visual diagrams of the Dyatllov Pass Tourists, I believe it's the first time I saw this, this evening. As you know I have always been focused on Semyon Zolotaryov for several reasons but something was very odd to me reading your extensive post tonight and this is it. Out of all the Dyatlov Pass Tourists none of them said to family and friends prior to the trip that they would be famous after the trip, except Semyon. Could this be a love affair of sorts but the "love" interest isn't anywhere on the mountain and wasn't "truthful", but somewhere else and may be have instigated or be an incentive for what happened on the mountain?

In trouser pockets:
- Onion
- Coins
- Hairbrush
- Ball of thread
- Folded newspaper
- Pieces of newspaper

When I read that Semyon had an onion in his pocket I thought he must have grabbed the onion from the tent just prior to slashing and dashing but then I thought to myself that after living in Alaska for all those years that I would have grabbed boots or a Jacket and in that order but an onion? An onion? And then it hit me hard, Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamozov and the HUGE symbolism of the "Onion" and it's connection to wickedness and then redemption:

The Onion Symbol Analysis

The Envelope and the Three Thousand Roubles
 
The onion is a symbol of redemption that helps both Grushenka and Alexei Fyodorovich to recognize the complexity of human character, which is neither strictly good nor entirely evil. Grushenka tells Alexei the parable of the onion, in which a wicked woman ruins her chance of being saved from hell by failing to remember an instance in which she unselfishly gave a beggar woman an onion. The woman’s guardian angel makes a wager with God: if the angel can take “that same onion” and pull the woman out of the lake of fire, she can go to heaven; but, if it breaks, she will remain in hell. The angel holds the onion out to the woman and beckons her to pull. She takes hold of it and nearly pulls herself out. However, when other sinners hold on to her, hoping to be pulled up with her, she kicks them away and tries to keep the onion for herself. With this, the onion breaks, and she falls back into the lake of fire.

Grushenka tells the tale of the onion to exemplify her own wickedness, though it ends up becoming an indication of her decency. She confesses that she promised Mikhail Osipovich Rakitin twenty-five roubles in exchange for bringing Alexei Fyodorovich to her residence, where she hoped to seduce and corrupt the young monk, in revenge for what she perceived as his self-righteous judgment of her. Alexei, in turn, allowed Rakitin to take him to Grushenka’s to be corrupted, due to his recent disillusionment over failing to witness a miracle after Zosima, the Elder’s death. After Grushenka learns about the elder’s death, she has a change of heart, prompted by her empathy for Alexei’s loss. In turn, Alexei is pleasantly surprised by her empathy and feels that the woman whom he had once considered “a wicked soul” is now “a loving soul” and “a true sister.” Grushenka’s empathy was “the onion” that Alexei needed in order to nourish his weak faith in the world and to restore the strength of his belief in goodness. Similarly, Alexei’s faith in Grushenka’s good nature is “the onion” that she needed in order to rescue her from her belief that she could never overcome her wickedness. With these simple acts of empathy, Alexei and Grushenka save each other from the hell of hopelessness and illustrate the complexity of human nature.

The Onion Quotes in The Brothers Karamazov

The The Brothers Karamazov quotes below all refer to the symbol of The Onion. For each quote, you can also see the other characters and themes related to it (each theme is indicated by its own dot and icon, like this one:  Faith vs. Reason Theme Icon ). Note: all page numbers and citation info for the quotes below refer to the Farrar, Straus and Giroux edition of The Brothers Karamazov published in 1990.
Part 2: Book 5, Chapter 4 Quotes
“In my opinion, Christ’s love for people is in its kind a miracle impossible on earth. True, he was God. But we are not gods. Let’s say that I, for example, am capable of profound suffering, but another man will never be able to know the degree of my suffering, because he is another and not me, and besides, a man is rarely willing to acknowledge someone else as a sufferer […] And why won’t he acknowledge it, do you think? Because I, for example, have a bad smell, or a foolish face, or once stepped on his foot […] Beggars, especially noble beggars, should never show themselves in the street; they should ask for alms through the newspapers. It’s still possible to love one’s neighbor abstractly, and even occasionally from a distance, but hardly ever up close.”

Related Characters: Ivan Fyodorovich Karamazov (speaker), Alexei “Alyosha” Fyodorovich Karamazov
Related Symbols: The Onion
Related Themes:  Faith vs. Reason Theme Icon   Morality and Modernization Theme Icon   Suffering Theme Icon
Page Number and Citation:  237 Cite this Quote

The onion has such strong symbolism in Dostoevsky's book The Brothers Karamozov which I have read and learned from, I was just wondering if there could be a connection and if that onion could have been placed in Semyon's pocket post-mortem?

For any Dostoevky Fans:



Very interesting. Now you have me thinking about an Onion. At first such a mention of an Onion might pass as being fanciful but in view of Mans liking for Symbols maybe a bit of Investigation is needed here. I wonder if there was much if any research before the Expedition took place, into the Culture and Legends of the area that they were travelling to  !  ?  Were any of them if not all of them aware of any Evil that Legend may have for the area that they were going to. They must all have known about the Legend of the Snowman, or Menk as it is known by the Mansi Tribes. Some people carry Symbols as a protection against Evil Forces.
DB
 

December 29, 2020, 08:03:59 AM
Reply #38
Online

marieuk


The folklore around the golden idol is worth a read, if you have some spare time.  It's rumoured to be hidden somewhere along the River Ob and closely guarded by the Mansi.  Is it possible Semyon had heard stories of this 'treasure' and maybe thought he had a good chance of finding it - hence his claim to fame?  Allegedly, the only way to find it, is to follow the Mansi signs carved in the trees, which they did appear to be doing. 

I did think the onion was a bit strange and read that WW2 solders carried onions with them to use as an anti-septic - not sure if this would be the case here though?  When you think about it, there's lots of little things that are still unsolved/explained.  I'm looking forward to finding out more in Teddy's book thumb1
 

December 29, 2020, 08:25:00 AM
Reply #39
Offline

Nigel Evans


The folklore around the golden idol is worth a read, if you have some spare time.  It's rumoured to be hidden somewhere along the River Ob and closely guarded by the Mansi.  Is it possible Semyon had heard stories of this 'treasure' and maybe thought he had a good chance of finding it - hence his claim to fame?  Allegedly, the only way to find it, is to follow the Mansi signs carved in the trees, which they did appear to be doing. 

I did think the onion was a bit strange and read that WW2 solders carried onions with them to use as an anti-septic - not sure if this would be the case here though?  When you think about it, there's lots of little things that are still unsolved/explained.  I'm looking forward to finding out more in Teddy's book thumb1
I like the anti septic idea.https://www.dorwest.com/blog/garlic-its-history-usage-and-queries-over-toxicity/Garlic was also famously used in the treatment of German soldiers during World War I, and although penicillin was already in use by the second  World War, the Russian Red Army continued using garlic and it was apparently renamed there as Russian penicillin or just natural antibiotic.
 

December 29, 2020, 04:02:42 PM
Reply #40
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The folklore around the golden idol is worth a read, if you have some spare time.  It's rumoured to be hidden somewhere along the River Ob and closely guarded by the Mansi.  Is it possible Semyon had heard stories of this 'treasure' and maybe thought he had a good chance of finding it - hence his claim to fame?  Allegedly, the only way to find it, is to follow the Mansi signs carved in the trees, which they did appear to be doing. 

I did think the onion was a bit strange and read that WW2 solders carried onions with them to use as an anti-septic - not sure if this would be the case here though?  When you think about it, there's lots of little things that are still unsolved/explained.  I'm looking forward to finding out more in Teddy's book thumb1

Well I have done a bit of serious Treasure Hunting myself in the past and I prefered nice weather conditions. Not temperatures of around minus 20, and deep snow.
DB
 

December 29, 2020, 07:20:22 PM
Reply #41
Online

marieuk


Thanks Nigel - that's very interesting re the garlic.

i agree Sarapuk that it would be easier to go treasure hunting in better weather conditions, but from what I've read so far, he was there for the hiking certification or maybe this was a good cover story - who knows? Now, I'm wondering about your treasure hunting!
 

December 30, 2020, 02:23:03 PM
Reply #42
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Thanks Nigel - that's very interesting re the garlic.

i agree Sarapuk that it would be easier to go treasure hunting in better weather conditions, but from what I've read so far, he was there for the hiking certification or maybe this was a good cover story - who knows? Now, I'm wondering about your treasure hunting!

You made me laff, which I suppose is ok in moderation on this Forum. I searched for Pirate Treasure in Cornwall, England. I had special permission. I used very advanced Detecting equipment. I had to abandon the Search due to technical difficulties. But I have not give up. Although its been many years now.
DB
 

December 30, 2020, 03:01:58 PM
Reply #43
Offline

RidgeWatcher


That is awesome, sarapuk. I am deeply jealous.

One of my favorite book was "Under the Black Flag" did you get to see the exhibit? Two museum curators put it on only thinking it would be open for 2 weeks, I read, but there was such a huge, unexpected outpouring that it stayed open for 2 months. I heard even Prince Charles parouzed the exhibit in person. I have a good friend who is a retired high school principal, he shocked me on day, saying if he could do it all over again he would rather have been a pirate. His statement came to of nowhere and it is a moment will remember forever. LOL.
 

December 30, 2020, 05:45:23 PM
Reply #44
Offline

mk


Garlic was also famously used in the treatment of German soldiers during World War I, and although penicillin was already in use by the second  World War, the Russian Red Army continued using garlic and it was apparently renamed there as Russian penicillin or just natural antibiotic.

Radiogram sent towards the end of the initial search:

Atmanaki, their addresses are from Ivanov. 3 graduate student of the Korolev left the institute without registration I ask to call 4 need to send garlic 5 tell Chernichev's relatives that everyone is healthy 6 it is necessary to prepare for the replacement of the remaining students with army men

Maslennikov


(I underlined the garlic part)

ETA: Also, Dyatlov had garlic cloves in the pocket of the clothes he was wearing. Dubinina had, in the pocket of her clothes, "a little powder and onion."

I had about decided that several of them were helping prepare dinner when the disaster happened, then I read the radiogram and thought, "WHAT are they ALL cooking out there in the middle of nowhere?!" Natural antiseptic makes a lot more sense, lol.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 05:54:43 PM by mk »
 

January 02, 2021, 11:08:49 AM
Reply #45
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
That is awesome, sarapuk. I am deeply jealous.

One of my favorite book was "Under the Black Flag" did you get to see the exhibit? Two museum curators put it on only thinking it would be open for 2 weeks, I read, but there was such a huge, unexpected outpouring that it stayed open for 2 months. I heard even Prince Charles parouzed the exhibit in person. I have a good friend who is a retired high school principal, he shocked me on day, saying if he could do it all over again he would rather have been a pirate. His statement came to of nowhere and it is a moment will remember forever. LOL.

I had hundreds of books on Piracy etc but when I moved to a smaller place I had to get rid of them. I had that book of course. I dont remember an exhibition though. I know that Prince Charles was keen on Diving. I cant say too much about the Treasure Hunt, for obvious reasons. It has helped me to be a keen Investigator though.
DB
 

January 02, 2021, 02:54:13 PM
Reply #46
Online

marieuk


Thank you for telling us about your treasure hunting.  It sounds like a real adventure.  I didn't mean to detract from the seriousness of all this.  I know how dedicated you all are to finding the answers and truth of what happened.  I love reading everyone's posts and admire all the thought and research that goes into them.   
 

January 02, 2021, 03:58:21 PM
Reply #47
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Thank you for telling us about your treasure hunting.  It sounds like a real adventure.  I didn't mean to detract from the seriousness of all this.  I know how dedicated you all are to finding the answers and truth of what happened.  I love reading everyone's posts and admire all the thought and research that goes into them.

And thank you for that. This Mystery continues into 2021.
DB
 

January 02, 2021, 10:11:35 PM
Reply #48
Offline

RidgeWatcher


Thank you, sarapuk.

I too really like hearing others opinions and life experiences. I truly believe that one day the Dyatlov Pass hikers mystery will be solved. Waiting for Teddy’s book with great anticipation.